I obviously have the later version, because the trap seems frigging obvious if you talk with Zeke about him and the history of the place. You mean he wasn't saying anything of the sort in the original one?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1009087But it when ideas like this become the Universal, the idea that "this is how the OSR is supposed to be played!"

Who says this?

Quote(because shit, who'd want to play high-level, right? That's so lame...)

Not lame, just boring.

QuoteAnd a fad of a group of people who wanted to pretend that a way hardly anyone ever played back in the old-school days is the One True Oldschool way to do D&D.

Who says this?

And you're going to love this: I don't call what I do D&D. When working with people on their projects, I try to get them to strip out as much of the "D&D" out of it as possible. No interest in it.

(Here I'm defining "D&D" as all the recognizable stuff that is assumed to be part of the D&D setting. Races, monsters, magic items, the cosmology, etc. And 32984723 classes and feats and all that horseshit too, people always assume that's part of "D&D" these days too. Take all that out, and apparently it's not very recognizable as D&D to a lot of people. The six-ability-scores-and-system-stuff I don't consider to be "D&D" by itself. So I let it go awhile back. I am curious what would have happened if I'd started with and had been as gung-ho about Traveller or Runequest back in the day. Everything probably would have worked out well enough creatively, but it might have been harder to get a foothold commercially.)

QuoteYou guys are pissed now that other people are getting tired of the fad, I get that.

LotFP had its best ever year in 2017. Most titles sold more in 2017 than in 2016 (talking physical copies, the Bundles of Holding makes comparing PDF sales difficult). There's been growth every year since I started.

Why would you think I was pissed? Why would you think people are getting tired of whatever fad I may be a part of?

And when you say "you guys," who other than me do you mean?

Where are you coming up with any of this stuff?

QuoteThe revolution's over, comrade.

What are you talking about?

Quote from: JimLotFP;1009797LotFP had its best ever year in 2017. Most titles sold more in 2017 than in 2016 (talking physical copies, the Bundles of Holding makes comparing PDF sales difficult). There's been growth every year since I started.

Why would you think I was pissed? Why would you think people are getting tired of whatever fad I may be a part of?

And when you say "you guys," who other than me do you mean?

Where are you coming up with any of this stuff?



What are you talking about?

Your facts are meaningless in the realm of Punditry!

Quote from: JimLotFP;1009797I am curious what would have happened if I'd started with and had been as gung-ho about Traveller or Runequest back in the day.

That's interesting. Naively I would think Traveller would be less suited to the style of the current modules as the characters as opposed to the players have a bit more agency/presence with their defined skills. You'll tend to be narrower with a guy who is "Str 16, Gun (Slug Pistol) 2 etc" than a guy who is just Str 16, especially as the former suggests particular scenarios to engage in. Perhaps the modules would have been in quite a different style as a result. Just spit-balling though, I assume it would have been a wierd-scifi Traveller.

EDIT: For clarity, it wouldn't have been weird-fantasy via Traveller, but wierd-scifi.

Or it would have been weird sci-fantasy. Traveller can do lots of options.

Quote from: Séadna;1009910That's interesting. Naively I would think Traveller would be less suited to the style of the current modules as the characters as opposed to the players have a bit more agency/presence with their defined skills. You'll tend to be narrower with a guy who is "Str 16, Gun (Slug Pistol) 2 etc" than a guy who is just Str 16, especially as the former suggests particular scenarios to engage in. Perhaps the modules would have been in quite a different style as a result. Just spit-balling though, I assume it would have been a wierd-scifi Traveller.

EDIT: For clarity, it wouldn't have been weird-fantasy via Traveller, but wierd-scifi.

I think Traveller has alot going for it, even if it is used outside of its original genre. There's also a lot of work for doing that. I could easily envision a horror version, as well as a Science/Horror version of Traveller, a Western version of Traveller, a Historical Military version of Traveller, a Post-apocalyptic version of Traveller, A Fantasy version of Traveller (Doesn't this already exists?), and I would say a post-human or Trans-human version (Already done with the MindJammer conversion (anyone here try this, by the way?)., and a gonzo science-fantasy version of Traveller as well. Not the easiest to create all of these but the basic game mechanics of Traveller would easily support all of these variations.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1009456Just a question for clarification:

Kubasik, have you read, played or ran either version of Death Frost Doom?  Just asking because you (and Asen) seem to be arguing more the general, and Pundit the specific, which is one of the various reasons this isn't going well.

Good question. For the record, I ran it twice.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1009464This is a long thread, with a lot of posts, so I'm not assuming everyone is keeping track of every post. But the answer to your question is "Yes."

As I've stated upthread a few time, I have read both editions of DFD, and I have run the 2nd edition for my campaign. I've linked the play reports above as well. Here they are again.

The player characters reached the "midpoint" of the DFD module, circumvented the creature in the spot where the vine-thing was in the 1st edition (after almost waking all the dead), retrieved the item they came for, and decided that whatever was waiting for them beyond the creature was more than they wanted to deal with. They buggered out.

For the record, I have run the 1st edition of DFD. I have no idea how the 2nd is different.

In the 1st edition, there is explicitly NO 'item they came for' in the adventure as such (though I believe "you're coming to retrieve some random item made up by the DM and in no way detailed in the module itself" was one of the options given for a GM to use as a way to motivate the PCs going into DFD), and in 1st edition there is no hint whatsoever that killing the plant-thing will awaken thousands of undead (only that there's whistling from air flow in the dungeon, and that the plant-thing is the source of the whistling, that's it).

If there is a "item" in 2e DFD, and it was put BEFORE the plant-thing, that utterly changes the nature of the adventure, because if the PCs are meant to go get that one thing, they could have a reason to leave before bothering to fight past the plant-thing.
If that's not something explicitly in the 2e text, but something that Kubasik added to his adventure, then:
a) he should have said so above
b) that's quite the cop-out, and any crowing about how his players were so clever to not fall for the trick and fight the plant-thing that no one could guess would raise thousands of undead is not really an accomplishment, because he intentionally altered the adventure to give the PCs a specific goal and then put that goal in a place where the main trap of the dungeon need not be sprung.

Mind you, if the "item the pcs came for" is an actual thing in 2e DFD, then that means that instead of Kubasik, it was just Raggi who did the same cop-out.

Quote from: JimLotFP;1009797Who says this?

Your very next sentence implies it.

QuoteNot lame, just boring.

You're obviously not very good at running high level play, as a GM, then.

QuoteLotFP had its best ever year in 2017. Most titles sold more in 2017 than in 2016 (talking physical copies, the Bundles of Holding makes comparing PDF sales difficult). There's been growth every year since I started.

What titles did you release in 2017. How many of them were negadungeons in the style of DFD? And I mean the original DFD, because apparently in the new edition you neutered it to provide warnings and an escape clause, if Kubasik is to be believed.

QuoteAnd when you say "you guys," who other than me do you mean?

Most of the "fantasy fucking vietnam" crowd. The ones who think Tomb of Horrors is the basis for how all D&D play should be run.  A Green Devil Face waiting for an arm, forever.

QuoteWhat titles did you release in 2017. How many of them were negadungeons in the style of DFD?

A setting (Veins of the Earth) and a rules supplement (Vaginas are Magic!).

But Death Frost Doom has so far sold 36% more this year than last, and God that Crawls has sold 23% more. (again, just comparing print copies, saying DFD has sold 794% more this year in PDF is almost entirely down to the Bundle of Holding)

Things you've specifically called out as "negadungeons."

QuoteAnd I mean the original DFD, because apparently in the new edition you neutered it to provide warnings and an escape clause, if Kubasik is to be believed.

Zak wrote the new version. The warning is more an obviously countdown which doesn't actually tell to what it's counting down. The adventure still pretty much boils down to "what do you do when the dead rise?" just as before.

QuoteMost of the "fantasy fucking vietnam" crowd. The ones who think Tomb of Horrors is the basis for how all D&D play should be run.  A Green Devil Face waiting for an arm, forever.

Names. Specific names. What specific people say things like "this is how the OSR is supposed to be played!" or are the "you guys" in "You guys are pissed now that other people are getting tired of the fad, I get that."

Who?

Quote from: GameDaddy;1009912I think Traveller has alot going for it, even if it is used outside of its original genre. There's also a lot of work for doing that. I could easily envision a horror version, as well as a Science/Horror version of Traveller, a Western version of Traveller, a Historical Military version of Traveller, a Post-apocalyptic version of Traveller, A Fantasy version of Traveller

There was the box mockup of "Wanderer", outside of that I'm not sure. Personally I've never ran just a plain horror game in Traveller, SciFi with horror yes. For the others not at all. Would be interesting to try.

I should rephrase the original post. What would Lamentations have been like coming at its aesthetic from a hard SciFi angle rather than a picaresque Fantasy one and with the skill system of Traveller.

The assumption would change from dangerously greedy and maybe a bit mad adventurers going too far for treasure, to competent ex-military taking a contract to Death Station Doom. Possibly no different though!

DFD 2nd Ed. tells the Referee to place a McGuffin the PCs are seeking behind the Sacred Parasite that stands in the same spot where the vine-thing is in the first edition. One PC got around the creature without making it stop singing and reached the McGuffin. It was risky and they lucked out... but decided the risk was worth it to get the McGuffin.

They had picked up a map (which is in the adventure as a handout) that lets the party see that there is more dungeon to explore beyond the Sacred Parasite. The other PCs could have tried to get past the Sacred Parasite as well, in order to journey further into the temple... but the party decided to they didn't want to risk what would happen if they disturbed the creature and made it stop singing.

In the parlance of RPG play, the Player Characters made a "choice" -- which I consider one of the vital elements of solid RPG play.

Quote from: Séadna;1010230There was the box mockup of "Wanderer", outside of that I'm not sure. Personally I've never ran just a plain horror game in Traveller, SciFi with horror yes. For the others not at all. Would be interesting to try.

I should rephrase the original post. What would Lamentations have been like coming at its aesthetic from a hard SciFi angle rather than a picaresque Fantasy one and with the skill system of Traveller.

The assumption would change from dangerously greedy and maybe a bit mad adventurers going too far for treasure, to competent ex-military taking a contract to Death Station Doom. Possibly no different though!

This is all waaaaay off topic but:

Here's a post about a guy using the Classic Traveller rules to run a WWII Cthulhu scenario for his son that worked out great for him.

The original Traveller rules weren't built to emulate Hard SF, but rather picaresque stories SF adventure stories.

I don't think the skill system of Traveller limits the characters. Skills in Classic Traveller are not necessarily a definition of what one can do, but rather what one has expertise at. Specifically, per the text, they are what one can get paid to do. A former Marine in Classic Traveller can do many things -- but he's got a few skills he's so good at he can be paid to do them.

Many of the skills, after all, can be used by most people at a -DM. Further, per the rules all PCs have a 0-skill rating in ALL weapons, which means that unlike most civilians picking up a weapon, they don't suffer a DM -5 when in combat with a weapon.

Moreover, the rules state that the Referee can allow that the PCs can be taught the basics of certain activities and receive a rating of 0 in things like Vacc Suit or ATV. Not enough to handle disasters or tricky situations, but enough to get by with basic activities. PCs are, by definition, a bit cooler than most people.

Usually in a game of Classic Traveller the PCs say they're going to do things, the Referee makes adjudications, ("No, you don't have a skill that can repair the engine..." or "Yeah, he'll sell you the weapons for Cr75,000..."), and on occasion, where the PC wanted to do something and the Referee isn't sure how to adjudicate dice are rolled. (2D6 +/- DM equal to or greater Throw Value equals success.) Skills are part of what might constitute DMs, but tools, characteristics, a positive or negative reaction roll and more all might figure into the DMs.

In some ways (and I know this is going to melt some people's minds, so bear with me) if looked at mechanically, skills in Traveller are similar to magic spells in OD&D in that they let PCs solve problems much more quickly.

For example, if an engine stops working on a space ship you don't need to have a Mechanical skill to get it fixed. You could get it to a starport for repair. In the same way you don't need Time Stop to kill four opponents in the blink of an eye while they are helpless against your attacks. You could just kill them in normal combat at the risk of taking damage yourself. In both cases there are always ways of getting most things done in both games.... but relatively speaking, having a spell or skill allows a PCs to short-cut the process and invoke his desires faster.

As for the characters: As noted above, a Marine Captain with a UPP 78A786 is going to have the ability to do lots of things beyond Rifle-2, Cutlass-1. He can negotiate deals, threaten people, charm people, get into a brawl, pick up an axe and go after someone, sneak into a base (he's a marine, after all), recon a situation before an attack, set up an ambush, oversell his credentials as a bodyguard, kidnap someone off the street, explore an alien tomb in search of an ancient poem leading to a treasure... all of this in more, even though, on his character sheet, he is listed as only Marine Captain 34, 78A786 Rifle-2, Cutlass-1.

All in all, while Classic Traveller has skills, it didn't approach skills in the manner later RPGs with skills did. In later games (like RuneQuest for example) the skills written on a character sheet show what the character can do and his odds of success. In Classic Traveller, the skills on the character sheet will be part of what informs how a character handles certain situations, but only a small piece of what the character is capable of doing -- since there is a Referee there to handle many of the adjudications that are later handed over to skill systems and rules.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1010204Most of the "fantasy fucking vietnam" crowd. The ones who think Tomb of Horrors is the basis for how all D&D play should be run.  A Green Devil Face waiting for an arm, forever.

So which subset of the OSR is next on your hit list? The gonzo crowd? The sandbox guys like myself and Autarch(ACKS)?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1010202In the 1st edition, there is explicitly NO 'item they came for' in the adventure as such (though I believe "you're coming to retrieve some random item made up by the DM and in no way detailed in the module itself" was one of the options given for a GM to use as a way to motivate the PCs going into DFD), and in 1st edition there is no hint whatsoever that killing the plant-thing will awaken thousands of undead (only that there's whistling from air flow in the dungeon, and that the plant-thing is the source of the whistling, that's it).

I've only read the 1st version, but I've played in both 1st and 2nd. I'd disagree that there's 'no hint whatsoever'.
I mean, the whole place exudes menace... and you've already had several instances where fucking with things could have serious consequences. Also, by the time you reach the (otherwise innocuous) plant-creature you're probably well aware that the place is filled to the gills with corpses... and not a single monster of any sort. Meanwhile that plant is humming along, you hear it everywhere you go.

I'm not saying we KNEW that fucking with the plant would raise the dead... but we knew there'd be nasty consequences of some sort, that in the scheme of things down there that plant-creature was a big deal.
I don't quite remember the discussion we had when we reached the thing but we left it intact and escaped with whatever loot we'd gathered.
Now, our GM that first time was running it as a one-off, we had no quest to retrieve anything specific... I don't even remember what enticement he'd placed on the altar. If we'd had reason to get beyond the plant we very well might have set off the trap... but we certainly would have hesitated and pondered ways around it.
I'm saying it's pretty obviously a big trap, even if you don't know the specifics.

EDIT: It now occurs to me to wonder what happens if you burn all those corpses, or haul them out and down the mountain to a landfill... do they wake up if they're out of range of the plant's song? Will the burned corpses rise up as blackened skeletons?