Quote from: RPGPundit;1007297I already answered this. Negadungeons work by presuming that player characters doing things that are standard to do, and that would be good practice in most dungeons, will screw them in ways that (in most negadungeons) they can't even get a hint of. There's no clue that destroying the plant-thing in DFD will unleash 10000 zombies on them. It's set up as a pure fucking over of the PCs. And don't get me wrong, at least DFD was doing something relatively original at the time. Everything that came after it was the same but without even the cleverness of novelty.

Could you post a list of of what you think are standard things to do and good practices?

Quote from: estar;1007323Could you post a list of of what you think are standard things to do and good practices?

Jesus, how is this a mystery?!

-Fighting aggressive monsters
-Recognizing patterns of monster lore/behavior
-searching for traps and disabling them
-wanting to obtain treasure, and obtaining it

So much of the negadungeon mentality is based on taking standard dungeoneering behavior and somehow doing a bait-and-switch on players, so that they're actually screwed if they do the things adventurers are usually meant to do.

There is some precedence for punishing players for being players, particularly  in 1e, the Gas Spore and those worms that burrow into your ears when you listen at the door come to mind.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1007657Jesus, how is this a mystery?!

The only mystery is what what you think the list is. I have my opinion so does ChristopherKubasik. But neither of us can read your mind as to what you think that list is. Which is germane because of your criticism of negadungeons in general and Death Frost Doom specifically.

Quote-Fighting aggressive monsters
-Recognizing patterns of monster lore/behavior
-searching for traps and disabling them
-wanting to obtain treasure, and obtaining it

I don't disagree with the above.

As to the specifics of Death Frost Doom, the main sticking point is the vine growth in the one room that when cut down will release over a thousand undead.

Quote22. High Priest's Temple
The east entrance to this room is blocked by a great mass of hard and brittle spiked vines and branches and fibers, like a mess of kudzu and spider webs made from a material akin to coral. The vines are hollow, and the blowing air from the pit (see below) creates haunting melodies when passing through them. The sound is rather loud at this point. There is a shaft leading straight up at the doorway, and it goes 50' up to a grate that opens in the middle of the graveyard (location A). The shaft is absolutely choked with the plant-thing though, and this is the source of the otherworldly sound in the area.

from page 23 of the first printing of Death Frost Doom

Recognizing patterns of monster lore/behavior
-searching for traps and disabling them


Jim Raggi is very consistent in the weird horror tone of Death Frost Doom. It is steeped in the same vibe that infuses the work of Bierce, Chambers, and Lovecraft. If I encountered this module I would quickly enter into what I would call "Call of Cthulu" I would assume that everything is out to fuck me because it all infused in whatever magic/thing that "man is not supposed to know".

A room choked with vines where the updraft through the foliage creates an eerie song that otherwise doesn't do anything else definitely something that fall into "don't fuck with it unless you know more" category.

My initial criticism of this portion of the module is that no where is there anything written that explains how the players can learn more. However when I read it again, Raggi does mention that a simple Speak with Plant spell will work to allow passage through the vines. It not a stretch to think that if you ask the vines what it doing with the song that the party can learn more.

-Fighting aggressive monsters

The vine is not an immediate threat when encountered. It will attack if hacked at so it is a potential hostile monster

-wanting to obtain treasure, and obtaining it

The vine as a barrier plays into this. The party wants to loot the place and the vine is a barrier. But there is a solution in the form of the Speak with Plants spell mentioned in the text.  Again there is an obvious warning flag that something warrants further investigate with the weird song being played.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1007657So much of the negadungeon mentality is based on taking standard dungeoneering behavior and somehow doing a bait-and-switch on players, so that they're actually screwed if they do the things adventurers are usually meant to do.

Now that I read the module again I don't agree it fits your definition of a negadungeon. It is not without faults but even when looking at its signature "trap" by itself It doesn't met your criteria of what a negadungeon is.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1007657-Fighting aggressive monsters
-Recognizing patterns of monster lore/behavior
-searching for traps and disabling them
-wanting to obtain treasure, and obtaining it

Thank you for this.

I, too, went back and read the vine passage a couple of days ago after Pundit brought it up again.

When I read Pundit's list I sighed and thought, "Am I really going to take the time to type up a thoughtful response when the response seems so obvious?"

And then estar showed up do it, doing a much better job than I would have.

Two more points:

First, the music of the vines is audible to the PCs the moment they open the first trap door to the tunnels below. The music grows becomes clearer and louder the closer the the PCs get to the vines -- which is pretty much the entire length of their journey through the first half of the shrine. They travel, the music gets louder and louder, they are getting closer and closer to the source. This is a central mystery -- what is the music, where is it coming from, what is it for? -- that is introduced right from the start and only grows more pronounced as the volume rises. Until they final find the vines.

If, after all that buildup, the PCs straight up attack the vines without doing any investigation or handling the whole matter with caution, I really don't know what the fuck to say.

Second, building from this and estar's blunt point: The vines are not aggressive. Which dumps them in the "trap" category if one is using the Pundit's expectations. And this means, again, care, caution, puzzle-solving and out of the box solutions.

Third, as estar notes, the text offers possible solutions. I'm going to reiterate something I wrote upthread: Yes, there are the possible solutions in the text. And then there are the infinite number of idea and solutions the Players might come up with on their own. This notion seems to trouble some people. I don't know what to do about that.

Finally, Pundit (and again, as estar pointed out) if you don't bother telling us what your baseline of expected behavior for PCs is, we can't have a discussion because it's just a bunch of gerbils you keep dumping into the thread without definition. We can't respond, or test the text against your expectations, because we don't know what they are.

Like estar, I agree with your list and would would want nothing else for the way my Players get to play the game. So, great! We're in agreement!

Now that you have spelled out your expectations I can happily and with certainty say what you expect PCs to do they can do in DFD and other LotFP produces. My players have done exactly those things in the modules we've played. Other groups have done the same. You're simply wrong in the assessment of the modules.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1007657Jesus, how is this a mystery?!

-Fighting aggressive monsters
-Recognizing patterns of monster lore/behavior
-searching for traps and disabling them
-wanting to obtain treasure, and obtaining it

So much of the negadungeon mentality is based on taking standard dungeoneering behavior and somehow doing a bait-and-switch on players, so that they're actually screwed if they do the things adventurers are usually meant to do.

Well, finally!
And by this definition, the players aren't being punished for acting like players. They're being punished for failing the tactics test.
In other words, they're punished for mistaking a trap for an opponent. Making this mistake is supposed to be deadly! It's a classical way to get someone in a trap.

There's also D&D monsters that hurt you when you hurt or kill them. That vine is no different.

"Speak with plants" is not a common spell. In a lot of versions of the game, it's not even a spell. Hell, is it even a spell in LotFP? I forget.

It seems pretty clear to me that Raggi included that line about speak with plants as a conditional statement, just in case a party happens to have access to that spell, which would not be the default and is not the default of what he would intend.

There is no other solution to dealing with the plant, aside from just not proceeding in the dungeon. It's a trap that every single group that doesn't have one specific and uncommon spell will fall into, unless they choose to act completely contrary to how gamers expect to play in a dungeon, which is to say, to give up on going forward and abandoning the exploration of the dungeon.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1008332"Speak with plants" is not a common spell. In a lot of versions of the game, it's not even a spell. Hell, is it even a spell in LotFP? I forget.

It seems pretty clear to me that Raggi included that line about speak with plants as a conditional statement, just in case a party happens to have access to that spell, which would not be the default and is not the default of what he would intend.

There is no other solution to dealing with the plant, aside from just not proceeding in the dungeon. It's a trap that every single group that doesn't have one specific and uncommon spell will fall into, unless they choose to act completely contrary to how gamers expect to play in a dungeon, which is to say, to give up on going forward and abandoning the exploration of the dungeon.

Or, you know, they might try to devise a non-violent solution to an obstacle that might be dangerous if roused, but isn't attacking them at the moment;). That would be good tactics even if it's to conserve their resources. Though generally, there's also the issue of the plant being an unknown quantity if roused, given that I never promise to the players that the battles would be balanced.

I've even heard that there are those players, called Referees, who would decide whether the solution has a chance to work, based on the description in the module:D! Though that's probably just crazy talk.

This is becoming ridiculous.

I'm sure there are people who play RPGs in a manner as boring as you suggest, Pundit. And I'm certain you and your fellow players are such people. But it would be a sad thing indeed if RPGs and modules were designed to cater to and support such sensibilities.

ONE: "There is no other solution to dealing with the plant, aside from just not proceeding in the dungeon."
This, is of course, bullshit. AsenRG already addressed this. And I've been making similar points throughout this thread. But in an RPG there is never only one solution. For example, by the time PCs reach the vine creature in Death Frost Doom there is no way of knowing what scrolls, potions, or strange magic items they might have picked up that might let them bypass the vines with ease.

But more importantly (much more importantly) in any given moment of RPG play the collective imaginations of the Players can (and will, and do -- at least with the people I play with) come up with awesome ideas and solutions to problems that I, as the Referee, could never have anticipated.

I don't mean this lightly. These are good solutions. Really smart, out-of-the-box ideas that solve the problems at hand. Ideas and solutions that you and I, sitting at our keyboards right now could not dream up. Which is my point, a point so strong that all I can say is that this kind off the cuff problem solving is one of the key reasons I love RPGs.


TWO: "Unless they choose to act completely contrary to how gamers expect to play in a dungeon, which is to say, to give up on going forward and abandoning the exploration of the dungeon."
This is of course bullshit.

The notion that the player characters only move forward in a dungeon is nonsensical as a general rule. I'm not saying your group doesn't play that way. But the fact is dungeons-crawling from the first years has always involved stopping, going back for rest, new supplies, re-memorization of spells, and even research on how to defeat new monsters, traps or magical problems.

Example:
"Hey, we should get shields with reflective surfaces to reflect the gaze of the creatures back into their own eyes."
"Great, we'll head back to the city, get a blacksmith on it, and come back to finish these guys off."

Example:
"I think whatever-the-hell that things is guarding the treasure is, we're going to need more muscle."
"Great. Let's go get some hirelings and come back." [/I]

In the case of the vine creature, the PCs might decide to go track down a scroll of Speak to Plants (not because the module says this is a possible solution but because they think of this solution on their own). This would lead to a whole other adventure -- which is a fine thing and exactly how D&D has been played for years. Or they might go find a higher level Magic User to aid them on their journey. (Again, another adventure of their own design -- and again a fine thing.) They might also head out in search of any number of alchemical or magical solutions they come up with on their own -- each in turn providing grist for a fresh adventure as they build a solution of their own design.

There is nothing to suggest that taking a pause in forward motion in an RPG is the same as giving up. And the fact that you think this way makes me wonder whether your are simply not paying attention what you are typing in an effort to "win" some sort of fight instead actually thinking through what an actual RPG session is like.


THREE: "'Speak with plants' is not a common spell. In a lot of versions of the game, it's not even a spell. Hell, is it even a spell in LotFP? I forget."
Since you have spent almost two decades making incorrect statements about games you clearly never took the time to read, this statement from you doesn't surprise me. It disappointments me, of course, because if one is going to take the time to argue such things one should probably take the time to crack open the rule book. Moreover, it misses the most obvious blunt solution to the problem at hand when the PCs reach the vine creature.

I'm going to walk you through this.

Let's say the Players reach the vine creature and the only idea they can come up with is, "You know what we need? Speak with Plants. But none of us have Speak with Plants."

Does this mean advancement through the shrine comes to a crashing halt? Does this mean there is no way forward?

No. It does not.

But first, let's be clear about something. On the cover of the first edition of DFD, in big letters, it says:
Lamentations of the Flame Princess Adventures

I'm going to go out on a limb here: I'm going to state the Raggi had ever right to write an adventure that worked using the rules he wrote, and that the module clearly states uses those rules. For some reason I suspect you'll state this is a preposterous expectation for someone to make. But I'm sticking with it.

So, given the fact we are using the Lamentations of the Flame Princes rules, we actually open them, and here are some things we find:

QuoteSpeak with Plants
Magic-User Level 4
Duration: 1 Round/level
Range: 0
The caster can communicate with plants, including both normal plants and plant creatures. The caster is able to ask questions of and receive answers from plants, and can ask plants to move in such a way to clear a path that is otherwise impassable or covered in difficult growth. The spell does not make plant creatures any more friendly or cooperative than normal. If a plant creature is friendly toward the caster, it may do him some favor or service.

So, LotFP has the spell. However, it's a 4th level spell, which means one needs to be 7th level to cast it. There might be a Magic User in the group. But odds are low he'll be 7th level.

However, in the rules we also find this:

QuoteSpell Scrolls
Scrolls are magical items which allow a Magic-User to cast a spell without prior memorization, even if the spell is of higher level than the Magic-User is able to cast... All spells cast from scrolls use the level of the reader, not the writer, to determine the effects of the spell.

[emphasis added]

And we also find this:

QuoteResearching a Spell
If a Magic-User wishes to add a spell to a spellbook without a prior reference to the spell (from a scroll or another spellbook), there is more intensive research to be done. A Magic-User can research spells of a higher level than he is able to cast and add them to his spellbook, but he may never prepare such spells. He can, however, write them on scrolls.

[emphasis added]

And we find this:

QuoteWriting a Scroll
Any Magic-User can create a spell scroll for any spell in his spellbook.

So, let's be clear. If the PCs do not have Speak with Plants, they can, per the rules and utterly with their own powers:
1. Research the Spell
2. Write the spell in a spell book (even if it is a higher level than they can cast)
3. Transfer the spell to a scroll
4. Make multiple scrolls if they wish (to increase the duration of the communication with the vine creature)
5. Cast the spell from the scrolls (even if the spell is at a higher level than they can cast)

This will take time and money. And this means they might well have to go into OTHER dungeons to get more loot to do the research. Which is all well and good since the PCs are adventuring. And when they finally get those vines to part the Players will know they really pulled something off.

Further, if there are no M-Us in the group the LotFP Rules & Magic book contains the rules required for hiring someone like a magic-user to do such a task for the PCs. (Again, depending on the setting this might be as simple as going to a Magician's Guild, or gaining the favor of such a magic-user through role-play or adventure, and so on).

Also, there are rules for imbuing potions with magical spells, so a M-U need not even be present in the group. So, is the fact the the PCs don't have an M-U who happens to have Speak with Plants a deal breaker? Nope. It only means there is more work to be done, more adventures to be had. And that's fine.


All in all, again, I'm looking at the module, I'm looking at the rules, I'm looking at what you're typing... and you're not making any sense at all.

And, once again, what Cristopher Kubasik wrote only applies if we assume the only solution is the one explicitly stated in the text of the module, which is moronic. We might as well have found already a jade mole that comes alive and takes you under any obstacle, if you take its deal of killing an evil creature detailed by the item within a month and a day - or you lose a level.
If it was your only level, you become another jade mole, and can offer the same deal to other adventurers, but keep in mind that this is a transformation and not a curse. You now have both an urge to free the world of evil, a perfect knowledge of the surrounding evil creatures within a Lvl of the owner*100 miles, and a geas forbidding you to move, except in order to perform the required burrowing after striking a deal with an adventuring group.

No, it's not an item from an official module. I just made it up as something the Referee might give and forget the players still have it:).

And then we come to the non-magical solutions, which I can't devise, as I seldom bother reading modules;).

In Fiore's The Lichway the PC have to kill the Sussurus in a very unfair even cruel way to access treasure. To me the intention is clearly to punish players who murderhobo. I don't think that is the intention in the original DFD but I suspect the majority of players do destroy the plant creature in most playthroughs. I prefer revised version of the creature in the later version of DFD, it is more evocative and imaginative. In general the later version is superior in a number of small ways but in this detail most of all.

Quote from: Voros;1008401I suspect the majority of players do destroy the plant creature in most playthroughs.

I'm going to suggest there is very little data to back this conclusion and we're going off our own instincts. For example, my suspicion is that most players would find clever ways to circumvent triggering the trap.

Quote from: Voros;1008401I prefer revised version of the creature in the later version of DFD, it is more evocative and imaginative. In general the later version is superior in a number of small ways but in this detail most of all.

I concur. The creature at the alter also fit into my campaign mythology very well and fed the players lots of information about the strangeness of the setting simply by its existence.

Quote from: AsenRG;1008373And, once again, what Cristopher Kubasik wrote only applies if we assume the only solution is the one explicitly stated in the text of the module, which is moronic.

To be very clear: Only the third part of my last post was predicated on the only solution for the vine creature being that found in the text. The parts labeled ONE and TWO clearly assume that there are an infinite number of possible solutions (which there are) for "solving" the vine creature, with none of them deponent on Speak to Plants.

I don't really understand why there is the insistence on the module spelling out the details since I thought 90% of GMing advice was to keep an open mind about player strategies?

On the other hand, I guess if your answer is "the GM can just fill it in," then why have modules written out to begin with, since providing the content is their job.

The best reason to not spell out ways to avoid the bad things in the adventures (beyond perfunctory examples to show how the things work) is because the whole entire bloody point of publishing them is so they happen in actual play in actual games.

This thread is gold.

It's most insightful into different referee and design philosophies.