Quote from: GoOrangeI'm surprised that there would be much interest in something like this for purposes other than nostalgia. I never really understood why people were crazy about the Rules Cyclopedia when it was put out. I had all the BECMI sets when I was younger, but they garnered little use. The basic set was used a decent amount until I learned the game, and then we all switched over to AD&D. A lot of us still bought the other boxed sets, but more for the sake of collecting than actually playing. I've read on these boards several posters talking about how they mostly used the basic rules and just added parts of AD&D in as needed, but that wasn't my experience. All of my friends and fellow gamers played AD&D and kept the basic rules in their boxes on a shelf..

People have different ideas of what makes a game good.  I like, and still use, BD&D because it provides a very good framework of solid rules.  They are simple to learn and use.  They are also very flexible and easily expandable.  There is enough there to cover everything I need without providing a bunch of extra crap that I won't use clogging up my limited memory stores.  IMHO the characters require the player to individualize his character by play style and giving him personality, rather than relying on his statistics and special abilities to define him...and that is something I strive for in my games.

Lots of these things can certainly be done with more complex systems, but not everyone feels as free to do it.  I, for instance, feel much more confined by more complex systems simply because I can comprehend all the rules and thus tend to use them all.  I hate to have my sessions become an exercise in the PCs using rules to accomplish things and relying on what's on their character sheet to accomplish goals rather than getting lost in the world and adventure we are creating.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not all artsy fartsy, and I do like my mechanics and gameish elements, especially in combat...I just want the right amount.

So it comes down to different strokes and different desires from ones gaming experiences.

Quote from: GoOrangeStill, every so often I start thinking that perhaps there are too many games out there and that the hobby doesn't need another fantasy game, or another retro clone. (Not referring to LL specifically, but just games in general). My reasoning for this is that as time goes on, it gets harder and harder to find players for games. More and more I find people that only want to play certain games and will not try others. I start wondering if too many options are fragmenting an already small, niche hobby.

Oh, I think this is a very valid argument, and I've made it many times myself.  Unfortunately there is nothing to be done about it.  It isn't like the "old days" where most everyone had the same idea of what a RPG is.  There are so many options out there, and every person has different preferences and ideals.    

D&D has always been the common ground for role playing games, the glue that holds the hobbyists together.  3.0 brought that back with a lot of success...which is one of my arguments against the direction 4.0 is taking (trying to appeal to much to a faction of the RPG community, mainly being the younger male generation) while sort of alienating the other faction).  Without the glue, I think our hobby is going to suffer severely.  But, most people seem to disagree with me, so I don't really want to open up that argument here.

Quote from: CabThe whole market winner/loser thing... What are you, man or sheep?

I'm someone who doesn't think his time is best spent reading through dozens of marginal amateur adventures to find something I might use. There's just too much chaff floating around these days for me to sort the good the bad. Even the most highly-rated of the free adventures on Dragonsfoot left me thinking 'meh'.

Commercial enterprises, where people put up real money, give the customer a first level of quality control. Usually when someone is putting money forward to get something printed, they take extra care with the product. They have processes in place for editing, they want to be sure there's a market of more than 40 curious grognards who will at least look at their product. They find the best writer or best map artist they can, rather than whoever volunteers from their favourite discussion board.

That doesn't mean everything that's published commercially is any good. Most of it isn't. But it's a first level of quality-control.

It also doesn't mean free or self-published stuff can't be very good. As I noted earlier, Mazes and Minotaurs is brilliant. Melan's Zothay book is one of the best cities I've ever seen in print.

But my experience is 98 per cent of the self-published stuff floating around the RPG world is weak. I simply don't have the time or inclination to sort through all of it to find the gloss amid the chaff.

And I don't share the sentiment of support-group solidarity you find in the RPG micro-niches, where people are applauded just because they put something out there. I don't applaud every musician who takes the stage, I don't applaud everyone who has ever pounded out a genre novel, and I don't voice admiration for every painting that finds its way onto someone's dining room wall. Why should I be compelled to applaud the efforts of RPG writers whose efforts I find dull or mediocre?

Maybe OSRIC and LL will encourage the publication of quality adventures. Melan's recommendation of the Shroom Caverns carries a lot of weight with me, so I'll probably check it out. But my experience is that genuine adventure-writing talent is extremely thin on the ground. Heck, I didn't even like most of the stuff TSR published back in the day. So my default attitude towards a new adventure is that it's probably crap. When that adventure hasn't been vetted by someone with a commercial stake in the enterprise, my expectations are even lower.

Quote from: HaffrungI'm someone who doesn't think his time is best spent reading through dozens of marginal amateur adventures to find something I might use. There's just too much chaff floating around these days for me to sort the good the bad. Even the most highly-rated of the free adventures on Dragonsfoot left me thinking 'meh'.

And the vast majority of for-sale adventures I've seen in the last few years have left me similarly unimpressed. Hardly surprising when you consider the typical sales those things get.

QuoteCommercial enterprises, where people put up real money, give the customer a first level of quality control. Usually when someone is putting money forward to get something printed, they take extra care with the product. They have processes in place for editing, they want to be sure there's a market of more than 40 curious grognards who will at least look at their product. They find the best writer or best map artist they can, rather than whoever volunteers from their favourite discussion board.

Yeah, you'd have thought so wouldn't you. Yet more often than not the editorial standards are shoddy, the maps and images uninspiring and the storline bland. But then, when you think about it, how many copies of an RPG adventure might you sell these days? It ain't in the tens of thousands any more, from what I hear, it ain't big business.

(cut for brevity)

QuoteBut my experience is 98 per cent of the self-published stuff floating around the RPG world is weak. I simply don't have the time or inclination to sort through all of it to find the gloss amid the chaff.

But was it not ever thus? How much of the stuff sold for RPGs do you really find useful? Go on, be honest. Of the stuff you'd have to pay for.

QuoteAnd I don't share the sentiment of support-group solidarity you find in the RPG micro-niches, where people are applauded just because they put something out there. I don't applaud every musician who takes the stage, I don't applaud everyone who has ever pounded out a genre novel, and I don't voice admiration for every painting that finds its way onto someone's dining room wall. Why should I be compelled to applaud the efforts of RPG writers whose efforts I find dull or mediocre?

You're not, but I'd hope that you respect them for the effort they've put in, even if the result isn't what you would want.

QuoteMaybe OSRIC and LL will encourage the publication of quality adventures.

Its worth a shot, isn't it? I mean, if people try and what they produce isn't good then don't keep buying it. But what have we got to lose from someone trying?

EDIT: Just wanted to say up front, great review Grubman!

Quote from: GoOrangeI'm surprised that there would be much interest in something like this for purposes other than nostalgia.

As someone who is about to run a campaign based on the Moldvay BD&D rules, I can say that the reason I settled on this game for this particular campaign had nothing to do with nostalgia.  I did so because the ruleset did exactly what I needed it to do.  I was very careful in my choice of system, considering several old and new FRPGs for the purpose I had in mind.  In the end, it came down to Moldvay BD&D and FtA!.  Both did what I wanted them to do, but Moldvay had the edge because my whole group has copies of the rules.

The new campaign is not going to be a nostalgia trip.  Paper games don't go out of date or become obsolete.  We're playing BD&D because we actually like the rules, the assumptions, etc.  Why is this surprising?  What's so hard to accept about the fact that an older ruleset might actually have good, solid and playable rules that meet the requirements of its users?

Quote from: KenHRWhy is this surprising?  What's so hard to accept about the fact that an older ruleset might actually have good, solid and playable rules that meet the requirements of its users?

It is surprising to me, but at the same time it is not hard to accept the fact that an older ruleset has good, playable stuff. If you'll re-read my post you will see that I made no claims whatsoever that the (BECMI) game didn't have good, solid or playable rules. You're incorrectly inferring that that's what I meant. It's a fine game, a great game, but a game I didn't play much.

Surprise vs. accepting are two different lines of thought altogether for me. (One that quickly generates a variety of friendly to irate replies. You'd think I would learn to just avoid using the word surprise.)

I'm surprised people like zucchini. I can't stand the stuff and it makes me nauseas just smelling it. Still, a large number of people do enjoy it, and I'm surprised that they do. I can accept the fact that people like zucchini, but they still surprise me.

I understand tastes may vary, but am constantly surprised by how frequently they do.

I guess I'm just a poor communicator as I provoked a detailed response from both Grubman and yourself as to exactly why people use these games. I wasn't trying to bash your favorite game and don't disapprove of it in any way so you shouldn't feel too much need to rush to it's defense.

I understand why you like the game. It still surprises me.

Quote from: grubmanD&D has always been the common ground for role playing games, the glue that holds the hobbyists together.  3.0 brought that back with a lot of success...which is one of my arguments against the direction 4.0 is taking (trying to appeal to much to a faction of the RPG community, mainly being the younger male generation) while sort of alienating the other faction).  Without the glue, I think our hobby is going to suffer severely.  But, most people seem to disagree with me, so I don't really want to open up that argument here.

Well, I can see what you mean but remember that you are speaking in hindsight.

I could copy/paste your fears of 4e, go back to 2000 and replace "4" for "3" and it would pretty much be the mindset. There's always a lot of people resisting changes.

3rd edition did its best to attract as many people as possible and changed a lot of stuff. I see no indication that 4e will be nearly as drastic a change. So we're going to have a bunch of people resisting the changes, as usual. Then the game will speak for itself and those who like it will be onboard. The others will have their previous editions.

Quote from: GoOrangeI understand why you like the game. It still surprises me.

I get ya, and rock on.  Thanks for the explanation; I guess my response is conditioned by folks writing off when I describe my enjoyment playing older games: "I bet your fun had more to do with your nostalgia than anything else.  Play d20."

Quote from: CabI'm not sure about that claim; I've heard people saying 'I could get the PDF or hard copy of Mentzer basic, or the RC, why would I get LL?' too, and for the most part they've been people well into classic. The other part of your point I think is the key; if LL brings us good material that is classic compatible you've got a winner, I'll buy it.

I could be wrong about the majority of people with this question. I have seen people ask it who go on to ask why anyone would even play classic because it is old/outdated/etc. Which leads me to believe that they were simply attacking LL (or OSRIC) on this point just to attack it, when they have no interest in it or what it's trying to do anyway.

Quote from: CabIn practical terms though, the distinction between 'in print' and 'out of print' is getting more and more narrow. You can pick up a PDF for a couple of quid and get it printed and bound cheaply;

This is absolutely true, and the sooner the majority of the "market" comes to view electronic books as legitimately in print, the sooner electronic book publishers can start to make a better income.

The problem is, electronic books are often not really seen as "in print." Things are changing, but still the value of a PDF is not seen as anywhere near a print product. Specifically, I mean that something you can't hold in your hand isn't "really real." Even for those people who do see them as "in print," would you rather pay to have what is usually a low res PDF printed and bound, or would you rather order a high quality POD version? If you have a copy of each at your table, which looks more "in print?"

Quote from: GoOrangeI'm surprised people like zucchini. I can't stand the stuff and it makes me nauseas just smelling it. Still, a large number of people do enjoy it, and I'm surprised that they do. I can accept the fact that people like zucchini, but they still surprise me.

Lay out a piece of tin foil and put some large slabs of butter on it, then thinner slices of Zucchini on it.  Give it a healthy dose of seasoning salt, a bit of pepper, and a dash of garlic powder.  Wrap it up and place it on a charcoal grill untill the edges of the zucchini are just starting to look burnt.

Trust me, your opinion of zucchini will change! :hibachi:

Quote from: grubmanLay out a piece of tin foil and put some large slabs of butter on it, then thinner slices of Zucchini on it.  Give it a healthy dose of seasoning salt, a bit of pepper, and a dash of garlic powder.  Wrap it up and place it on a charcoal grill untill the edges of the zucchini are just starting to look burnt.

Trust me, your opinion of zucchini will change! :hibachi:

I like it cut in thin slices. Then dredged in drakes mix and deep fried. Makes a good snack.


Sorry continue with your RPG conversation.

Quote from: grubmanTrust me, your opinion of zucchini will change!

If deep frying doesn't do the trick, nothing will!

Quote from: Consonant DudeI'll try to respond honestly.

Part of it, of course, is just talking aloud. "Hey, that rocks", "that stinks". Someone shares  something, you talk about it.

Thanks for the response. I can see what you mean, I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing something (good or bad) until it becomes excessive, and of course excessive is one of those subjective things that I know when I see it. (Not you, mind you in this thread, just in general.)

Quote from: SilverlionI don't think there is anything wrong with discussing something (good or bad) until it becomes excessive

Crap, I was just going to post more Zucchini recipes!

Quote from: grubmanCrap, I was just going to post more Zucchini recipes!

Take it to..oh wait wrong forum

Sure, I like Zucchini

"What if" you could be a mutant zucchini PC? But...I don't want to reveal too much about the project I'm currently working on....