So all we need now is a AD&D 2e clone, right?

I'm kind of surprised one of the Dragonsfoot guys didn't already create one of those.

Quote from: Consonant DudeHow were they not able to publish such material before, Grubman? Rules are fair game. Anybody can already publish whatever they want. Nobody does because few people actually care.

I fail to see how this is going to change things.

Maybe I'm not seeing the point.

With the LL open OGL liscense you can put out a LL supplement or module.  This product is compatable with BD&D, and everyone who is looking for new fresh BD&D material knows it.

You can't put out an adventure and label it as BD&D or you are guilty of copyright infringement.  If you put it out as "generic" you are not getting it to your target audience.

So, your last comment is right on the mark.

You're certainly allowed an "I don't care" opinion, but you should understand that the whole purpose of the game goes beyond simply re-publishing something that has already been done.

Quote from: jrientsTwo of the biggest things to happen to gaming in the last few decades would be the Open Gaming License and the ability to publish on the internet.  The whole frickin' point of LL is to leverage those developments for the Moldvay/Cook fan.

Nothing is stopping people from posting their homebrew basic D&D adventures on the net. You can find hundreds of them on Dragonsfoot. So what we're talking about here is commercially publishing (I assume via PDF) old-system D&D adventures. I just don't see much of a market for that stuff, unless Goodman starts publishing Basic or AD&D conversions of its books.

I mean, how small can you cut the old-school D&D pie between Castles and Crusades, Goodman Games, Necromancer Games, Hackmaster, Basic Fantasy Roleplaying, OSRIC, and Labyrinth Lords and still have professionally-produced, commercially-viable supplements? Frankly, I think OSRIC and the rest are a lot of work for the sake of a handful of PDF products

Quote from: jrientsWhat exactly is your objection to one more option?

Because that splits this niche within a niche even further in 2. It's just redundant. That's assuming Basic Fantasy is the only other one, which I very much doubt.

You can call me a moron or dumbass all you want. Again, I have a soft spot for my old products, but that's sweet old memories. It's been done to death from my perspective.

LL looks like shit (I'm talking about the actual appearance here). It's not going
to bring back any new people because nobody likes things that look like shit. Most old gamers have their stuff. Who's left?

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure there are some people out there who will have an interest in this. There's always at least a few people interested in any RPG. But I personally think it's very old news at this point in time.

Quote from: grubmanWith the LL open OGL liscense you can put out a LL supplement or module.  This product is compatable with BD&D, and everyone who is looking for new fresh BD&D material knows it.

You can't put out an adventure and label it as BD&D or you are guilty of copyright infringement.  If you put it out as "generic" you are not getting it to your target audience.

So, your last comment is right on the mark.

You're certainly allowed an "I don't care" opinion, but you should understand that the whole purpose of the game goes beyond simply re-publishing something that has already been done.

But can't you already do that with the other nostalgia trips already available? Did we really need yet another product for those stuck in the disco era?

Quote from: Consonant DudeBecause that splits this niche within a niche even further in 2. It's just redundant. That's assuming Basic Fantasy is the only other one, which I very much doubt.

So Basic Fantasy was first to market so it gets dibs?  Is it that simple?

Quote from: jrientsSo Basic Fantasy was first to market so it gets dibs?  Is it that simple?

I'll be shocked if Labyrinth Lords and Basic Fantasy, between them, are used for the publication of three adventure PDFs that anyone will pay $10 for.

Let's keep in mind that Mazes and Minotaurs, a most excellent and acclaimed old-school game available for free, has yet to see a single adventure published for it.

As nice as it is that there are a handful of nostalgic and dedicated system-wonks out there willing to put together old-school D&D variants, there seems to be fuck all of a commercial market for the adventures they're designed to support. People should just call them house ruled D&D variants and have done with all this licensing nonsense.

Quote from: Consonant DudeBut can't you already do that with the other nostalgia trips already available? Did we really need yet another product for those stuck in the disco era?

Well, does that cute little insult make you feel superior?

BD&D is a different game from those, plain and simple.  I really don't understand the passion of your arguments.

Quote from: HaffrungNothing is stopping people from posting their homebrew basic D&D adventures on the net. You can find hundreds of them on Dragonsfoot. So what we're talking about here is commercially publishing (I assume via PDF) old-system D&D adventures. I just don't see much of a market for that stuff, unless Goodman starts publishing Basic or AD&D conversions of its books.

I mean, how small can you cut the old-school D&D pie between Castles and Crusades, Goodman Games, Necromancer Games, Hackmaster, Basic Fantasy Roleplaying, OSRIC, and Labyrinth Lords and still have professionally-produced, commercially-viable supplements? Frankly, I think OSRIC and the rest are a lot of work for the sake of a handful of PDF products

Yes, comercial products, or free, print (Lulu makes it easy), or PDF.

Sometimes it isn't about making a huge profit (or a profit at all), sometimes it's about a sense of personal accomplishment, or being part of somthing.  Every product and game doesn't have to move the world...some people are happy just to be part of something modest.

Quote from: grubmanSometimes it isn't about making a huge profit (or a profit at all), sometimes it's about a sense of personal accomplishment, or being part of somthing.  Every product and game doesn't have to move the world...some people are happy just to be part of something modest.

So these are vanity-press D&D variants. Fair enough. But it begs a couple questions:

Why, in the case of OSRIC and LL, go to great pains to make them compliant with commerical adventures? Is there any reason to believe any adventures published for these systems will be commercially-viable? In other words, why not just keep posting old-school D&D adventures for free on Dragonsfoot?

How is anyone but the most hardcore Dragonsfoot/RPGsite enthusiast going to become aware of these obscure niche products, let alone fork out money to buy them? There comes a point at which cutting an already small niche-market ever smaller is just going to wind up with a blizzard of unprofessional chaff. Frankly, I just don't have the time to sift through so much amateur gaming content. I doubt any but a tiny handful of RPG super-enthusiasts does. It's gotten to the point that much of RPG publishing is like the underground music scene where a few hipsters who can't play their instruments hold garage shows to a half-dozen other hipsters who can't play their instruments and call it a 'scene'.

Quote from: Haffrung...
As nice as it is that there are a handful of nostalgic and dedicated system-wonks out there willing to put together old-school D&D variants, there seems to be fuck all of a commercial market for the adventures they're designed to support. People should just call them house ruled D&D variants and have done with all this licensing nonsense.

:confused:
Quite a few modules have been published for OSRIC (including by relatively successful companies like 'Expeditious Retreat Press').

Quote from: HaffrungSo these are vanity-press D&D variants. Fair enough.

Well, first off, that's not really what I said, or at least meant.  Second, I can't assume to talk for anyone other than myself...I was just throwing out some responses to arguments...basically showing that not everyone thinks alone the exact same lines.  What doesn't make any sense to you makes perfect sense to someone else.

Quote from: Cab.. Firstly, I could if I chose buy the Mentzer edition of the game on PDF or instead get a hard copy on ebay, for not much money. So I'd question the need for LL...

Yes, but the Moldvay Basic Rules and Cook Expert Rules are not available by pdf.  Aside from e-bay, there is no way to get this version of Classic D&D these days, and LL is based on Moldvay/Cook.

Personally, I prefer the Moldvay/Cook version of Classic D&D over the BECMI version by Mentzer, since I really dislike the 1-36 level campaign arc presupposed by the latter rules.  A level 1-14 level range is far closer to my notion of fantasy.  And thief abilities don't suck so badly in the Moldvay/Cook version.

Anyhow Grubman, as I said over at TBP, I think that this is a good review.

Pity some people seem to take the existence of additional options for gaming as a personal insult.

Quote from: HaffrungWhy, in the case of OSRIC and LL, go to great pains to make them compliant with commerical adventures? Is there any reason to believe any adventures published for these systems will be commercially-viable? In other words, why not just keep posting old-school D&D adventures for free on Dragonsfoot?

How is anyone but the most hardcore Dragonsfoot/RPGsite enthusiast going to become aware of these obscure niche products, let alone fork out money to buy them? There comes a point at which cutting an already small niche-market ever smaller is just going to wind up with a blizzard of unprofessional chaff. Frankly, I just don't have the time to sift through so much amateur gaming content. I doubt any but a tiny handful of RPG super-enthusiasts does. It's gotten to the point that much of RPG publishing is like the underground music scene where a few hipsters who can't play their instruments hold garage shows to a half-dozen other hipsters who can't play their instruments and call it a 'scene'.

In a way I can see your point...in another I have to argue that the same can be said for anything, with D20 being the biggest perp.

First off, I want to comment on the first argument.  I don't wnat to make any (more) enemies at Dragonsfoot, because I'm a fan of the systems it supports...but I haven't seen much quality material at that site (IMHO only).  There is a very narrow focus as to what is "acceptable" old school material there and what isn't.  So I don't frequent it much anymore.  Second, a pay product produces a much different result than a free one.  People pay for it, so they care.  They will talk about it, people thinking about buying it will ask questions.  If the quality isn't there, people will hear about it.  If it's awesome, it will earn a spot in RPG "history".

On the second argument...If people wnat to look for it they will find it.  It would be as simple as posting on this forum or RPGnet "Where can I find some good basic D&D stuff?", the same as anything.

As far as cutting the niche, what you are implying is that someone who wants this system or supplements shouldn't simply because you say so?  They are suposed to be content with C&C or FtA or OSRIC because you say that should be enough to keep them happy?

I mean, it's a silly argument at best.