Quote from: Abraxus on January 04, 2023, 11:30:02 AM
Sad to see another rpg publishers going woke though not surprised.
It funny how they use semantics with words .

" i wil make an overly obvious political statement yet if i write it's not political than it's suddenly not" line of reasoning. Like when people e add full stop after making a statement thinking no one is going to answer back.

  Well, he's arguably right--it's not political, it's philosophical. It does, however, express a philosophy that I disagree with, and if agreement with that philosophy is the price of admission, I will gladly refrain from imposing my time, money, and attention upon his work. Shame, as I like a lot of the stuff James Mishler did for Labyrinth Lord, but that's easily migrated to B/X or C&C.

  (I was already feeling nervous when Kidd was attached to LL 2E, based on what was said upthread and elsewhere.)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 04, 2023, 08:50:43 PM

Quote from: Abraxus on January 04, 2023, 11:30:02 AM
Sad to see another rpg publishers going woke though not surprised.
It funny how they use semantics with words .

" i wil make an overly obvious political statement yet if i write it's not political than it's suddenly not" line of reasoning. Like when people e add full stop after making a statement thinking no one is going to answer back.

  Well, he's arguably right--it's not political, it's philosophical. It does, however, express a philosophy that I disagree with, and if agreement with that philosophy is the price of admission, I will gladly refrain from imposing my time, money, and attention upon his work. Shame, as I like a lot of the stuff James Mishler did for Labyrinth Lord, but that's easily migrated to B/X or C&C.

  (I was already feeling nervous when Kidd was attached to LL 2E, based on what was said upthread and elsewhere.)

So, OSE for the Win?

I wonder how Greg Gillespie's BX project will turn out now?

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 04, 2023, 06:00:54 PM
What do you not like about it?  Just curious.

I greatly dislike the combat system; I think it's convoluted and stupid. Also some of the economic stuff is obnoxious; the game tries to pass itself off as historical when it clearly is derived from old D&D tropes. However, I haven't even looked at it in like 10 years, so maybe I'd change my mind now that I'm less disgruntled.

Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 05:44:05 AM
I greatly dislike the combat system; I think it's convoluted and stupid. Also some of the economic stuff is obnoxious; the game tries to pass itself off as historical when it clearly is derived from old D&D tropes.

It's derived mostly from BX and BECMI D&D. The D&D economy does tend to resemble that of the Classical world of ancient Greece & Rome, certainly far more than it does a medieval economy, and ACKS leans into that. But it's obviously not an historical RPG. It's a Swords & Sorcery inflected retro-clone.

Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 05:44:05 AM

I greatly dislike the combat system; I think it's convoluted and stupid. Also some of the economic stuff is obnoxious; the game tries to pass itself off as historical when it clearly is derived from old D&D tropes. However, I haven't even looked at it in like 10 years, so maybe I'd change my mind now that I'm less disgruntled.

Ok thank you for letting me know.  I am trying to come up with a good replacement system and I want to get a lot of information about all thee different systems so I can make the best choice.

Quote from: S'mon on January 06, 2023, 06:03:40 AM
It's derived mostly from BX and BECMI D&D. The D&D economy does tend to resemble that of the Classical world of ancient Greece & Rome, certainly far more than it does a medieval economy, and ACKS leans into that. But it's obviously not an historical RPG. It's a Swords & Sorcery inflected retro-clone.

That's probably a more accurate statement; like I said, it's been a while since I looked at it. My biggest gripe was the use of actual coinage instead of barter as the main means of trade, which is FINE for a game obviously, but not very historical. Whatever, the economy I can deal with, but I did go back and look at the combat system and yes, I hate it. It's like too many numbers, man! Whatever, I'll still back it because at least Alex Macris/Autarch isn't a flaming leftist faggot and he actually managed to deliver a product during the whole Dwimmermount debacle and deserves props for that.

Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 10:50:21 AM
I did go back and look at the combat system and yes, I hate it.

I'm not a fan either. I tend to refer to ACKS as a resource book for other systems like S&W.

Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 05:44:05 AM

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 04, 2023, 06:00:54 PM
What do you not like about it?  Just curious.

I greatly dislike the combat system; I think it's convoluted and stupid. Also some of the economic stuff is obnoxious; the game tries to pass itself off as historical when it clearly is derived from old D&D tropes. However, I haven't even looked at it in like 10 years, so maybe I'd change my mind now that I'm less disgruntled.

Always interesting to see other people's reactions.  My group has played ACKS on and off for years, and have never found combat stupid or convoluted.  In fact, it seems perfectly in line with a lot of flavors of early D&D so everybody took to it pretty easily.  And that's from a mixed group of original old school gamers, as well as more modern 3E+ gamers.

As for the rest of the stuff, have you followed Alex's posts on the forums or seen his work in Axioms?  He's revised and revisited a lot of the economic stuff over the years, so some amount of it may be more to your liking.  As far as the history vs D&D trope aspect, I'd say it's a mix.  He definitely uses systems to reinforce some old D&D tropes, which I think he does with pretty good success.  He also tries to start with some informed historical data for a lot of the systems, but he also has to account for the nature of the game world as one which has magic, monsters, and heroes of superhuman ability.  The truth is ACKS is NOT based on actual history so penalizing it for such seems a bit off.

We're probably a bit off thread here.  I wonder if we started another thread (say about the incoming 2nd edition) we could summon Alex to some discussion about some of the design decisions involved.

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 06, 2023, 01:21:48 AM

So, OSE for the Win?

How do you compare OSE (Old School Essentials) to say Basic Fantasy?

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 06, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
How do you compare OSE (Old School Essentials) to say Basic Fantasy?

OSE is B/X with a modern layout.

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 06, 2023, 02:00:20 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 06, 2023, 01:21:48 AM

So, OSE for the Win?

How do you compare OSE (Old School Essentials) to say Basic Fantasy?

OSE is B/X with better organization.  Since B/X was the first RPG I played, it will always hold a special place for me.  I also find it the easiest game to run.  The adventures definitely have a certain flavor and style, though it's not necessarily my favorite style.  I do love the digest-sizing, especially when it comes to carrying stuff around.

BFRPG is "Boring Fantasy" so far as I'm concerned.  It does nothing for me in the way of presentation or style.  There's nothing necessarily wrong with it besides being boringly derivative.  Artwork is boring.  The modules are generally inferior knockoffs of the originals.  I prefer descending AC as well, though I've softened my stance on that.  But at least it sells for the right price. 

Quote from: Persimmon on January 06, 2023, 02:27:35 PM
BFRPG is "Boring Fantasy" so far as I'm concerned.  It does nothing for me in the way of presentation or style.  There's nothing necessarily wrong with it besides being boringly derivative.  Artwork is boring.  The modules are generally inferior knockoffs of the originals.  I prefer descending AC as well, though I've softened my stance on that.  But at least it sells for the right price.

BFRPG is the only OSR game I ever got rid of. I had everything in print and disposed of it over the summer. Just nothing compelling about it, honestly.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 06, 2023, 02:27:35 PM

OSE is B/X with better organization.  Since B/X was the first RPG I played, it will always hold a special place for me.  I also find it the easiest game to run.  The adventures definitely have a certain flavor and style, though it's not necessarily my favorite style.  I do love the digest-sizing, especially when it comes to carrying stuff around.

BFRPG is "Boring Fantasy" so far as I'm concerned.  It does nothing for me in the way of presentation or style.  There's nothing necessarily wrong with it besides being boringly derivative.  Artwork is boring.  The modules are generally inferior knockoffs of the originals.  I prefer descending AC as well, though I've softened my stance on that.  But at least it sells for the right price.

Cool thank you for letting me know.

Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 05:44:05 AM

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 04, 2023, 06:00:54 PM
What do you not like about it?  Just curious.

I greatly dislike the combat system; I think it's convoluted and stupid. Also some of the economic stuff is obnoxious; the game tries to pass itself off as historical when it clearly is derived from old D&D tropes. However, I haven't even looked at it in like 10 years, so maybe I'd change my mind now that I'm less disgruntled.

My problems as well. Why mess around with straightforward ascending AC!? Different for no reason.

As for the economic stuff - I like the idea behind it, but poop or get off the pot. Either lean to the historical like Pundit does in Lion and Dragon, or go full gonzo weird fantasy.

ACKS does a Sword and Sorcery D&D implied setting with this underpinning of real world economics, but with gold pieces. It's just a weird juxtaposition that doesn't really work for me.

But he sells - so someone out there really likes that mix...

Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 03:06:21 PM

BFRPG is the only OSR game I ever got rid of. I had everything in print and disposed of it over the summer. Just nothing compelling about it, honestly.

Yeah I played BFRPG and I was bored.  There wasn't much to character creation, they felt 2d and the options were very limited.