Quote from: corwinofamber on October 01, 2022, 02:07:10 AM
Good luck to him. But I'm not sure about the value of creating another accurate clone of B/X.
B/X exists and can be bought as PDF. OSE is available as a free SRD and a basic set. What does LL 2E have to offer?

I have B/X. I also have OSE. What would LL 2e give me?

I hope he gets some sales from people who are loyal to LL but otherwise there isn't any point to this.

Not sure LL 2e is an "accurate clone", I've been hearing people talk about new classes, etc.

I haven't read LL 2e but I've been using LL for a while (see below).

If you bought B/X and then OSE, and you thought THAT added you value, LL will add some stuff that is not in either.

I like OSE, but they even kept the typos; they added next to nothing to B/X (except for looks and layout, which I really appreciate, and the SRD, which I LOVE).

LL has a few added stuff (for example, advancement to level 20, but only for some classes, also high-level spells, "fixed" progression for clerics, also IIRC in LL two-handed weapons do not lose initiative automatically).

Unfortunately, garlic still costs 5 gp in LL.

(I'm using the LL text to make my "minimalist OSR" game. What I want to offer is game that has more options than B/X and is still a lot simpler and easier to teach newbies - single saving throw, streamlined skills, etc.).

Quote from: Bruwulf on December 09, 2022, 09:28:53 AM

As for the rules, I like what I see so far and could see myself switching from 5e to this (or at least running this in a another game).  The more I run 5e the less I like it.

Well I have looked at a lot of different games and so far this is the one that comes the closest to what I am looking for.  Simple, not overcomplicated rules and easy to play/learn

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 10, 2022, 05:24:03 PM
Hey, it's cool to speak up and admit to liking something that other people are criticizing.  It gives the creator a little positive feedback.

I appreciate that.  I have been looking at a bunch of different systems and this one comes that closest.  Looked at basic fantasy but it was too basic for me.  I will be interested to check LL2 when it comes out.

Quote from: GhostNinja on December 11, 2022, 10:27:33 AM

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 10, 2022, 05:24:03 PM
Hey, it's cool to speak up and admit to liking something that other people are criticizing.  It gives the creator a little positive feedback.

I appreciate that.  I have been looking at a bunch of different systems and this one comes that closest.  Looked at basic fantasy but it was too basic for me.  I will be interested to check LL2 when it comes out.

To me, the biggest draw of Labyrinth Lord is having a totally complete game system that I like in just one book.  Thus, I may still grab this, but I'll wait for the advanced version, because what I really want is B/X and AD&D options together.  Now, of course I can get that in OSE Advanced, which I have and like, but Gavin changes things a bit by B/Xifying the AD&D classes.  Now I can appreciate that and when we play OSE Advanced, we use it like that, keeping race classes and not separating race and class.  And it's in two books, albeit handy digest sized.

But in fact, Labyrinth Lord Advanced is the closest to how we actually played in the mid 80s, essentially bolting AD&D elements onto B/X (though I had one friend who preferred BECMI so we had a side campaign that went through the Companion levels in that).  Dan has indicated that a bit more new material might be in the Advanced book, like the barbarian class.  And, unlike, OSE, it has devils and demons, statted up a bit more simply than in AD&D.  That's another draw for me.  Plus, there are actually some interesting little things, like tips on world building and a super simplified, but interesting map/chart of the multi-verse and assorted random tables a la the DMG in Labyrinth Lord Advanced that one does not get in OSE.  So despite my reservations about the cheesy art, I may still pull the trigger on the LL Advanced 2E book.

BTW Matt Finch will also be releasing a new edition of Swords & Wizardry next year, though I suspect changes will be purely cosmetic since he doesn't seem keen on adding any new races or classes.  S&W is also lots of fun; we had a great session last night playing the Necropolis module, which we're finally close to finishing.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 11, 2022, 02:14:19 PM
though I had one friend who preferred BECMI

The absolute patrician's choice. You have good friends. 

As for the new LL, I'll be picking up a copy if for anything else to support Dan; he seems a genuinely swell dude from the little interaction I've had with him. I'll likely never play it, since we're a Rules Cyclopedia table, but it has welcome space on my shelf next to my original copies of LL, the AEC, and the random copy of LL auf Deutsch that one of my players ordered on accident years ago and gave to me since Ich sprech' ein' bischen.

Quote from: Mithgarthr on December 11, 2022, 07:40:06 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 11, 2022, 02:14:19 PM
though I had one friend who preferred BECMI

The absolute patrician's choice. You have good friends. 

As for the new LL, I'll be picking up a copy if for anything else to support Dan; he seems a genuinely swell dude from the little interaction I've had with him. I'll likely never play it, since we're a Rules Cyclopedia table, but it has welcome space on my shelf next to my original copies of LL, the AEC, and the random copy of LL auf Deutsch that one of my players ordered on accident years ago and gave to me since Ich sprech' ein' bischen.

I've run two BECMI campaigns to the Immortals level though we quit there because we never liked the Immortals rules.  One was back in the 80s.  The other wrapped up about ten years ago after running for about 8 years off and on.  Since then I've played plenty of OSE and various retroclones and cribbed stuff from BECMI.  Still toying with idea of grabbing a copy of Champions of Mystara, the only major BECMI product I don't own, and doing one more RC campaign.

FYI: he reconsidering the layout of the book:
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=89718&p=2290821#p2290821

Quote from: blackstone on December 13, 2022, 01:02:00 PM
FYI: he reconsidering the layout of the book:
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=89718&p=2290821#p2290821

Thanks for the info!

More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far.  But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea.  We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones.  OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it.  Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative.  It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far.  But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea.  We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones.  OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it.  Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative.  It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.

That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 13, 2022, 02:32:18 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far.  But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea.  We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones.  OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it.  Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative.  It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.

That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.

Incorrect.

from the thread at Dragonsfoot:

"Hey everyone, based on feedback I'm going to need to rethink presentation. The release timeframe will probably change. I'm taking some time to mull it over and I'll update when I can."

Rethinking presentation doesn't mean rethinking about doing a release at all.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far.  But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea.  We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones.  OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it.  Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative.  It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.

This is the way forward for OSR Games - make your own thing, and see if it catches a wider audience.

If people are willing to re-think some of the assumptions of AD&D/BX game design, while understanding why they were put there in the first place; that is how you will start to see real innovation in OSR game design.

Quote from: blackstone on December 13, 2022, 03:20:15 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 13, 2022, 02:32:18 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far.  But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea.  We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones.  OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it.  Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative.  It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.

That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.

Incorrect.

from the thread at Dragonsfoot:

"Hey everyone, based on feedback I'm going to need to rethink presentation. The release timeframe will probably change. I'm taking some time to mull it over and I'll update when I can."

Rethinking presentation doesn't mean rethinking about doing a release at all.

Whatever; my info comes from his Facebook page, which was updated more recently than the thread you reference.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 04:52:03 PM

Quote from: blackstone on December 13, 2022, 03:20:15 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 13, 2022, 02:32:18 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far.  But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea.  We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones.  OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it.  Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative.  It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.

That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.

Incorrect.

from the thread at Dragonsfoot:

"Hey everyone, based on feedback I'm going to need to rethink presentation. The release timeframe will probably change. I'm taking some time to mull it over and I'll update when I can."

Rethinking presentation doesn't mean rethinking about doing a release at all.

Whatever; my info comes from his Facebook page, which was updated more recently than the thread you reference.

...and I checked the LL Facebook page and Dan doesn't day anything about not doing a 2nd edition.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 13, 2022, 02:32:18 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far.  But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea.  We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones.  OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it.  Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative.  It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.

That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.

Totally agree. I think that might be a step in the right direction too.