http://goblinoidgames.com
It will be nice to see what he does.
There's a reddit post saying more, but not much detail is given:
https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/xqqedr/dr_dan_proctor_announces_the_future_of_goblinoid/
This should be interesting.
VERY cool!
Ironically, I just bought the Advanced Labyrinth Lord rules...and a second edition will be coming out first quarter 2023.
Eh, I'm ok with that.
I'm curious what the differences will be between LL, and LL 2E? How close will it hold to Original BX? Will it offer Ascending AC as an option? Will it offer a tasteful new spin, on the old BX formula? How different will it be in play, to OSE?
I bet it will get a lot of reviews, based on it being a Labyrinth Lord title. Good luck to their efforts.
Great news! I love Mutant Future! I'm astonished that WotC has completely failed to tap into the market trends by releasing a new edition of Gamma World. Fallout and other post apocalyptic crpgs are hugely popular. A Gamma World crpg would have a huge audience.
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 29, 2022, 02:15:44 PM
I'm curious what the differences will be between LL, and LL 2E? How close will it hold to Original BX? Will it offer Ascending AC as an option? Will it offer a tasteful new spin, on the old BX formula? How different will it be in play, to OSE?
I bet it will get a lot of reviews, based on it being a Labyrinth Lord title. Good luck to their efforts.
Based on the announcement, it sounds like new art and errata, and he is returning everything to the original B/X stats. All the stuff he originally changed to avoid potential lawsuits.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on September 29, 2022, 02:38:43 AM
http://goblinoidgames.com
It will be nice to see what he does.
There's a reddit post saying more, but not much detail is given:
https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/xqqedr/dr_dan_proctor_announces_the_future_of_goblinoid/
I'm very pleasantly surprised by this. I always thought LL was cool but there was a lot missing, and I loved Advanced LL.
Im glad he isn't closing down. I kinda wonder how he'll deal with the current dominance of OSE.
Quote from: Slambo on September 30, 2022, 09:46:41 AM
Im glad he isn't closing down. I kinda wonder how he'll deal with the current dominance of OSE.
I suspect that is part of the reason for this.
Greg Gillespie is also releasing an OSR ruleset next year, which he said is similar to Advanced Labyrinth Lord. I believe Greg wanted to buy the rights to Labyrinth Lord, but Dan Proctor apparently had other plans for the game.
Neat!
Quote from: Crusader X on September 30, 2022, 05:32:42 PM
Greg Gillespie is also releasing an OSR ruleset next year, which he said is similar to Advanced Labyrinth Lord. I believe Greg wanted to buy the rights to Labyrinth Lord, but Dan Proctor apparently had other plans for the game.
In this respect D&D, especially B/X, long ago developed a Unix-like family tree.
Good luck to him. But I'm not sure about the value of creating another accurate clone of B/X.
B/X exists and can be bought as PDF. OSE is available as a free SRD and a basic set. What does LL 2E have to offer?
I have B/X. I also have OSE. What would LL 2e give me?
I hope he gets some sales from people who are loyal to LL but otherwise there isn't any point to this.
Quote from: corwinofamber on October 01, 2022, 02:07:10 AM
Good luck to him. But I'm not sure about the value of creating another accurate clone of B/X.
B/X exists and can be bought as PDF. OSE is available as a free SRD and a basic set. What does LL 2E have to offer?
I have B/X. I also have OSE. What would LL 2e give me?
I hope he gets some sales from people who are loyal to LL but otherwise there isn't any point to this.
Perhaps it is a desire on his part, to update the legacy of Labyrinth Lord within the history of the OSR? Perhaps he wants to inject some new life into the old ruleset's fandom? Perhaps he believes it will generate some revenue for him? Perhaps he didn't like seeing his ruleset lose ground to OSE, among the BX fan base?
For me the biggest draw of Labyrinth Lord Advanced is having everything in one book. But I think the existing book is poorly organized and badly formatted. It just has a sort of amateur look to it, including some of the art. So even if he just fixes that stuff and puts it out in one volume, I'd be interested, especially if it were digest-sized because I already have plenty of adventures written expressly for LL. It sounds like that process will take awhile, though, as he'll be releasing the books in stages.
Quote from: Crusader X on September 30, 2022, 05:32:42 PM
Greg Gillespie is also releasing an OSR ruleset next year, which he said is similar to Advanced Labyrinth Lord. I believe Greg wanted to buy the rights to Labyrinth Lord, but Dan Proctor apparently had other plans for the game.
Has Greg said more on this? I'm curious whether he is changing anything or whether its just Advanced Labyrinth Lord rewritten, with his high quality standard as Barrowmaze, etc.
Quote from: World_Warrior on October 02, 2022, 01:27:22 AM
Quote from: Crusader X on September 30, 2022, 05:32:42 PM
Greg Gillespie is also releasing an OSR ruleset next year, which he said is similar to Advanced Labyrinth Lord. I believe Greg wanted to buy the rights to Labyrinth Lord, but Dan Proctor apparently had other plans for the game.
Has Greg said more on this? I'm curious whether he is changing anything or whether its just Advanced Labyrinth Lord rewritten, with his high quality standard as Barrowmaze, etc.
He hasn't said alot about it yet. Mainly just that it will be a mix of D&D Basic and AD&D, the books won't be digest-sized (he doesn't like digest-sized books) and that he was disappointed in the art in the OSE books, so his books will have the kind of old-school art that he prefers.
There is now a free preview of Labyrinth Lord Second Edition up on DriveThruRGP:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/419358/Labyrinth-Lord-Second-Edition-Preview
First impression? I think the art and layout look rather awful. :o
OSE has nothing to worry about. And I have no doubt that Greg Gillespie's new rulebook will look alot nicer than this.
Wow...wtf was wrong with the original layout? Rather pedestrian, but looked like a rulebook. I have no idea what this is...was excited to see a second edition, but there is zero way I am paying for this.
I don't mind the borders and layout so much, but the general level of the artwork is really low. First edition LL artwork was lousy, but to me it seems that colored lousy artwork is much worse than black & white line art. He bragged about upping the production values to give fans what they expect nowadays. Surely this can't be what his feedback told him people want?
Dreadful. Glad I have the original edition, because I won't be getting this. Ugh.
I'm really not liking what I am seeing with the art, borders, and layout. Printing full color like that will be expensive, which means a higher priced book to sell.
And "Hobfolk"? WTF?
Yeah, the artwork it very amateurish. He could have commissioned my daughter to produce better work. Maybe I'll bring it up to him. Her stuff is a bit cartoon-ish (a mix of old school Warner Bros style and anime), but who knows.
Besides from what I've read on the Facebook page, the differences between 1st and 2nd edition are mostly cosmetic anyway. Honestly, he should just go with black and white and not color.
I'm going to see if she can reproduce some of the artwork in the preview, but in her style.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 08, 2022, 09:27:43 PM
I don't mind the borders and layout so much, but the general level of the artwork is really low. First edition LL artwork was lousy, but to me it seems that colored lousy artwork is much worse than black & white line art. He bragged about upping the production values to give fans what they expect nowadays. Surely this can't be what his feedback told him people want?
If the artwork was left as the original black and white line drawings you can very clearly tell it started as, most of it would be perfectly serviceable. Some of it might even rise to "good". But colorizing it ruined it.
.... Not that picture of elf in the dress, though. There's no saving that picture.
I am going to go against what alot of what people have said.
I dont mind the art, could be better but it gives me enough to get the feeling of the world.
As for the rules, I like what I see so far and could see myself switching from 5e to this (or at least running this in a another game). The more I run 5e the less I like it.
I am very interested in this.
I kind of like the art actually. I don't have 1e, so I can't compare.
The art has character, as opposed to a lot of the milquetoast cartoony art you see from WotC these days.
Quote from: GhostNinja on December 09, 2022, 09:05:50 AM
I am going to go against what alot of what people have said.
I dont mind the art, could be better but it gives me enough to get the feeling of the world.
As for the rules, I like what I see so far and could see myself switching from 5e to this (or at least running this in a another game). The more I run 5e the less I like it.
I am very interested in this.
The art is "fine", but the page border and soul-sucking grey background of +2 eyestrain are sins against all that is good and proper in book design.
The rules are what they are. If you like the, you can already get basically the same thing either from LL1E or other OSR products.
Quote from: rytrasmi on December 09, 2022, 09:28:34 AM
I kind of like the art actually. I don't have 1e, so I can't compare.
The art has character, as opposed to a lot of the milquetoast cartoony art you see from WotC these days.
And that character is "staple-bound black and white homebrew "it's totally not D&D, guys!" self-published RPG distributed at a convention in the early 80s". If that's what they were going for, they nailed it.
I will say, I actually kinda liked the big dragon picture.
Looks hideous. I wonder what Kidd's involvement is - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kidd
I liked Kidd's raunchy, Furry take on Star Trek in The Lucanii Drift for Starships & Spacemen. I wonder how his proclivities will affect Labyrinth Lord.
Quote from: corwinofamber on October 01, 2022, 02:07:10 AM
I have B/X. I also have OSE. What would LL 2e give me?
That's what I was thinking.
Quote from: GhostNinja on December 09, 2022, 09:05:50 AM
I am going to go against what alot of what people have said.
I dont mind the art, could be better but it gives me enough to get the feeling of the world.
As for the rules, I like what I see so far and could see myself switching from 5e to this (or at least running this in a another game). The more I run 5e the less I like it.
I am very interested in this.
Hey, it's cool to speak up and admit to liking something that other people are criticizing. It gives the creator a little positive feedback.
Quote from: corwinofamber on October 01, 2022, 02:07:10 AM
Good luck to him. But I'm not sure about the value of creating another accurate clone of B/X.
B/X exists and can be bought as PDF. OSE is available as a free SRD and a basic set. What does LL 2E have to offer?
I have B/X. I also have OSE. What would LL 2e give me?
I hope he gets some sales from people who are loyal to LL but otherwise there isn't any point to this.
Not sure LL 2e is an "accurate clone", I've been hearing people talk about new classes, etc.
I haven't read LL 2e but I've been using LL for a while (see below).
If you bought B/X and then OSE, and you thought THAT added you value, LL will add some stuff that is not in either.
I like OSE, but they even kept the typos; they added next to nothing to B/X (except for looks and layout, which I really appreciate, and the SRD, which I LOVE).
LL has a few added stuff (for example, advancement to level 20, but only for some classes, also high-level spells, "fixed" progression for clerics, also IIRC in LL two-handed weapons do not lose initiative automatically).
Unfortunately, garlic still costs 5 gp in LL.
(I'm using the LL text to make my "minimalist OSR" game. What I want to offer is game that has more options than B/X and is still a lot simpler and easier to teach newbies - single saving throw, streamlined skills, etc.).
Quote from: Bruwulf on December 09, 2022, 09:28:53 AM
As for the rules, I like what I see so far and could see myself switching from 5e to this (or at least running this in a another game). The more I run 5e the less I like it.
Well I have looked at a lot of different games and so far this is the one that comes the closest to what I am looking for. Simple, not overcomplicated rules and easy to play/learn
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 10, 2022, 05:24:03 PM
Hey, it's cool to speak up and admit to liking something that other people are criticizing. It gives the creator a little positive feedback.
I appreciate that. I have been looking at a bunch of different systems and this one comes that closest. Looked at basic fantasy but it was too basic for me. I will be interested to check LL2 when it comes out.
Quote from: GhostNinja on December 11, 2022, 10:27:33 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 10, 2022, 05:24:03 PM
Hey, it's cool to speak up and admit to liking something that other people are criticizing. It gives the creator a little positive feedback.
I appreciate that. I have been looking at a bunch of different systems and this one comes that closest. Looked at basic fantasy but it was too basic for me. I will be interested to check LL2 when it comes out.
To me, the biggest draw of Labyrinth Lord is having a totally complete game system that I like in just one book. Thus, I may still grab this, but I'll wait for the advanced version, because what I really want is B/X and AD&D options together. Now, of course I can get that in OSE Advanced, which I have and like, but Gavin changes things a bit by B/Xifying the AD&D classes. Now I can appreciate that and when we play OSE Advanced, we use it like that, keeping race classes and not separating race and class. And it's in two books, albeit handy digest sized.
But in fact, Labyrinth Lord Advanced is the closest to how we actually played in the mid 80s, essentially bolting AD&D elements onto B/X (though I had one friend who preferred BECMI so we had a side campaign that went through the Companion levels in that). Dan has indicated that a bit more new material might be in the Advanced book, like the barbarian class. And, unlike, OSE, it has devils and demons, statted up a bit more simply than in AD&D. That's another draw for me. Plus, there are actually some interesting little things, like tips on world building and a super simplified, but interesting map/chart of the multi-verse and assorted random tables a la the DMG in Labyrinth Lord Advanced that one does not get in OSE. So despite my reservations about the cheesy art, I may still pull the trigger on the LL Advanced 2E book.
BTW Matt Finch will also be releasing a new edition of Swords & Wizardry next year, though I suspect changes will be purely cosmetic since he doesn't seem keen on adding any new races or classes. S&W is also lots of fun; we had a great session last night playing the Necropolis module, which we're finally close to finishing.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 11, 2022, 02:14:19 PM
though I had one friend who preferred BECMI
The absolute patrician's choice. You have good friends. 8)
As for the new LL, I'll be picking up a copy if for anything else to support Dan; he seems a genuinely swell dude from the little interaction I've had with him. I'll likely never play it, since we're a Rules Cyclopedia table, but it has welcome space on my shelf next to my original copies of LL, the AEC, and the random copy of LL auf Deutsch that one of my players ordered on accident years ago and gave to me since Ich sprech' ein' bischen.
Quote from: Mithgarthr on December 11, 2022, 07:40:06 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 11, 2022, 02:14:19 PM
though I had one friend who preferred BECMI
The absolute patrician's choice. You have good friends. 8)
As for the new LL, I'll be picking up a copy if for anything else to support Dan; he seems a genuinely swell dude from the little interaction I've had with him. I'll likely never play it, since we're a Rules Cyclopedia table, but it has welcome space on my shelf next to my original copies of LL, the AEC, and the random copy of LL auf Deutsch that one of my players ordered on accident years ago and gave to me since Ich sprech' ein' bischen.
I've run two BECMI campaigns to the Immortals level though we quit there because we never liked the Immortals rules. One was back in the 80s. The other wrapped up about ten years ago after running for about 8 years off and on. Since then I've played plenty of OSE and various retroclones and cribbed stuff from BECMI. Still toying with idea of grabbing a copy of Champions of Mystara, the only major BECMI product I don't own, and doing one more RC campaign.
FYI: he reconsidering the layout of the book:
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=89718&p=2290821#p2290821 (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=89718&p=2290821#p2290821)
Quote from: blackstone on December 13, 2022, 01:02:00 PM
FYI: he reconsidering the layout of the book:
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=89718&p=2290821#p2290821 (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=89718&p=2290821#p2290821)
Thanks for the info!
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far. But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea. We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones. OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it. Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative. It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far. But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea. We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones. OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it. Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative. It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.
That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 13, 2022, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far. But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea. We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones. OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it. Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative. It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.
That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.
Incorrect.
from the thread at Dragonsfoot:
"Hey everyone, based on feedback I'm going to need to rethink presentation. The release timeframe will probably change. I'm taking some time to mull it over and I'll update when I can."Rethinking presentation doesn't mean rethinking about doing a release at all.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far. But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea. We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones. OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it. Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative. It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.
This is the way forward for OSR Games - make your own thing, and see if it catches a wider audience.
If people are willing to re-think some of the assumptions of AD&D/BX game design, while understanding why they were put there in the first place; that is how you will start to see real innovation in OSR game design.
Quote from: blackstone on December 13, 2022, 03:20:15 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 13, 2022, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far. But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea. We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones. OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it. Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative. It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.
That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.
Incorrect.
from the thread at Dragonsfoot:
"Hey everyone, based on feedback I'm going to need to rethink presentation. The release timeframe will probably change. I'm taking some time to mull it over and I'll update when I can."
Rethinking presentation doesn't mean rethinking about doing a release at all.
Whatever; my info comes from his Facebook page, which was updated more recently than the thread you reference.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 04:52:03 PM
Quote from: blackstone on December 13, 2022, 03:20:15 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 13, 2022, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far. But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea. We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones. OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it. Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative. It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.
That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.
Incorrect.
from the thread at Dragonsfoot:
"Hey everyone, based on feedback I'm going to need to rethink presentation. The release timeframe will probably change. I'm taking some time to mull it over and I'll update when I can."
Rethinking presentation doesn't mean rethinking about doing a release at all.
Whatever; my info comes from his Facebook page, which was updated more recently than the thread you reference.
...and I checked the LL Facebook page and Dan doesn't day anything about not doing a 2nd edition.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 13, 2022, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far. But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea. We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones. OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it. Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative. It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.
That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.
Totally agree. I think that might be a step in the right direction too.
Quote from: blackstone on December 13, 2022, 05:24:20 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 13, 2022, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far. But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea. We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones. OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it. Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative. It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.
That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.
Totally agree. I think that might be a step in the right direction too.
Hmmm, I just went back to the Facebook page too and it seems that Dan deleted some of the comments he made a couple days ago concerning abandoning the project entirely. He was apparently pretty bothered by the negativity regarding presentation but the support from people on that Facebook has changed his mind, I presume. There were two different places where he referenced this, but I can't find either now, unless they're buried in other threads. He talked about meeting his production goals already (in the past?) and wishing he could release it anonymously since it seems some people just don't like him and they're predisposed towards negativity. I'm not familiar with any of this backstory so I won't comment on that.
Believe me, I was one of the folks trying to talk him into not abandoning the second edition, especially if there's going to be new content along the lines I referenced. There's a niche waiting to be filled.
It's a pity he switched from his own forums to social media, the tone of critique is very different and not nearly as civilised. I'm not surprised if he was discouraged (IIRC the same thing happened when he posted the first conceptual AI art cover), glad he's sticking with it for now. I have both LL (the combined hardcover) and OSE (box plus tome plus the advanced stuff), and I suspect many people interested in one will tend to buy the other as well. They are quite different, perhaps in feel more than in the rules.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 05:38:04 PM
Quote from: blackstone on December 13, 2022, 05:24:20 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 13, 2022, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on December 13, 2022, 02:22:45 PM
More than the layout, he's reconsidering even releasing a second edition due to all the negative feedback so far. But it sounds like he might even get more radical and lean into the B/X/AD&D mashup aspect, adding more new content and ceding the retroclone space to other games, which I think would be a good idea. We have tons of B/X clones already; far fewer 1e clones. OSE adds AD&D material but B/Xifies it. Something that leaned more the other way, using AD&D hit dice, more spells, etc., might be an interesting alternative. It would certainly emulate the way we played for much of the 80s.
That would be a great idea! Something I've been trying to do for a while (with lots of house rules etc.). I'd love to see a simplified AD&D.
Totally agree. I think that might be a step in the right direction too.
Hmmm, I just went back to the Facebook page too and it seems that Dan deleted some of the comments he made a couple days ago concerning abandoning the project entirely. He was apparently pretty bothered by the negativity regarding presentation but the support from people on that Facebook has changed his mind, I presume. There were two different places where he referenced this, but I can't find either now, unless they're buried in other threads. He talked about meeting his production goals already (in the past?) and wishing he could release it anonymously since it seems some people just don't like him and they're predisposed towards negativity. I'm not familiar with any of this backstory so I won't comment on that.
Believe me, I was one of the folks trying to talk him into not abandoning the second edition, especially if there's going to be new content along the lines I referenced. There's a niche waiting to be filled.
It's weird how there are people in the world where they feel like they have to drag everyone else down around them. I'm happy he made the decision to stay the course. Hell, I threw my hat in the ring and asked if he could use any help proofreading, playtesting, etc. I want him to be successful. Successful in a way that LL remains a choice in the OSR.
With everything going on with the latest version of D&D being in playtest, we need choices. Gygax and Arneson, if they were alive today, would be shaking their heads in sadness because of what their game has become. D&D being a "life style" brand. I mean, don't get me wrong, TSR did try to go down the "diversify the brand name" route in the early 80s, and that lead to the financial disasters of the late 80s and 90s. It was a bad business choice.
and now they're going to try it again? What makes them think they'll be successful this time? This is what happens when you have a group of idiots think they're the smartest guys in the room.
anywho...
I hope to see LL (and Adv LL) 2nd edition. The more diverse the market is the better.
Finally found Dan's response on Facebook:
"These are great comments everyone, but I don't think so far they bring me to a decision. Still pretty split. I hesitate a little to say this but no new edition is also on the table. Just to be honest. I'm finding a much more negative environment IMO today than a few years back. There are many reasons for that I figure, but one is that there are a lot of people who would prefer I just disappear. I almost feel like if I could change my identity to do away with both expectations and prejudice I'd be better off, but that isn't realistic.
I'm proud of the fact that I achieved my production goals, but maybe it truly is time to pack it up."
Luckily, it seems that he has walked back on this sentiment.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 14, 2022, 09:33:45 AM
Finally found Dan's response on Facebook:
"These are great comments everyone, but I don't think so far they bring me to a decision. Still pretty split. I hesitate a little to say this but no new edition is also on the table. Just to be honest. I'm finding a much more negative environment IMO today than a few years back. There are many reasons for that I figure, but one is that there are a lot of people who would prefer I just disappear. I almost feel like if I could change my identity to do away with both expectations and prejudice I'd be better off, but that isn't realistic.
I'm proud of the fact that I achieved my production goals, but maybe it truly is time to pack it up."
Luckily, it seems that he has walked back on this sentiment.
My objections are to the presentation, not the fact that there's a second edition. I love the original and own it on print. I especially love the AEC. I was all on board for a second edition and considered my money already spent for it when I first heard about it, but if it's going to have horrid art I don't see why I should spend the money. I think Dan was overreacting here and being a little unfair to those of us who wish him well and would welcome a new edition that improves on what we loved about the first edition. I presume he released that preview so that he could get comments on it. Well, he got them. I don't owe him my money for a downgrade of something I already bought from him once. Whether this new edition ends up being to my personal taste or not, I wish him success with it.
Do it, or don't do it. No need at all for this "will-I won't-I" teasing bullshit.
Quote from: I on December 14, 2022, 10:07:16 AMMy objections are to the presentation, not the fact that there's a second edition. I love the original and own it on print. I especially love the AEC. I was all on board for a second edition and considered my money already spent for it when I first heard about it, but if it's going to have horrid art I don't see why I should spend the money. I think Dan was overreacting here and being a little unfair to those of us who wish him well and would welcome a new edition that improves on what we loved about the first edition. I presume he released that preview so that he could get comments on it. Well, he got them. I don't owe him my money for a downgrade of something I already bought from him once. Whether this new edition ends up being to my personal taste or not, I wish him success with it.
The presentation is total ass...when I heard the new edition was coming out, I contacted him directly about doing some character generation software and other utilities. I think Advanced LL is the best retroclone by far, and an update with better layout/art and resources similar to something like OSE would be awesome. But this...this is bad. Cartoony nonsense, horrid border/colors...I just do not understand what he was trying to do.
I hope LL2 does happen. He can redo the layout and make it better then everyone is happy.
I am trying to switch from 5e and this has been the best option yet, with Pathfinder 2 in second place.
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
Quote from: rkhigdon on January 02, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
In the past I would have responded to his post, but now I just don't give a fuck. If you say ANYTHING about how you disagree in the slightest way, the Marxists will come out of the woodwork to destroy you. So what's the point? The sycophants can enjoy their circlejerk and now I have another good reason not to purchase the new edition.
Quote from: Brad on January 02, 2023, 12:29:40 PM
Quote from: rkhigdon on January 02, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
In the past I would have responded to his post, but now I just don't give a fuck. If you say ANYTHING about how you disagree in the slightest way, the Marxists will come out of the woodwork to destroy you. So what's the point? The sycophants can enjoy their circlejerk and now I have another good reason not to purchase the new edition.
Yeah, unfortunately it's another one of those "politics don't matter except for the politics we don't like which are exclusionary hate speech" statements.
Quote from: rkhigdon on January 02, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
I know how it's going to play out with me: this fucker won't be getting one more dime from my wallet.
Quote from: I on January 02, 2023, 02:25:27 PM
I know how it's going to play out with me: this fucker won't be getting one more dime from my wallet.
Seconded.
Quote from: rkhigdon on January 02, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
and then Dan goes on to say how he will be sanitizing the next version of LL (getting rid of "offensive" magical items like the girdle of masculinity, etc.)
what a tool this guy turned out to be
Isn't he a college professor? You resemble the company you keep...
Sheesh! Now I feel sad I started this thread. I never knew what a tool he'd turn out to be!
Quote from: I on January 02, 2023, 02:25:27 PM
Quote from: rkhigdon on January 02, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
I know how it's going to play out with me: this fucker won't be getting one more dime from my wallet.
Same. I'm disappointed. :-\
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on January 02, 2023, 05:31:12 PM
and then Dan goes on to say how he will be sanitizing the next version of LL (getting rid of "offensive" magical items like the girdle of masculinity, etc.)
what a tool this guy turned out to be
Oh FFS. >:(
Quote from: rkhigdon on January 02, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
"This isn't politics this is unquestionable Truth. Which we should discuss."
Quote from: I on January 02, 2023, 02:25:27 PM
Quote from: rkhigdon on January 02, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
I know how it's going to play out with me: this fucker won't be getting one more dime from my wallet.
100% same here, LL is dead to me and books go in the bin for recycling. A shame it was my go to game for so long.
Quote from: grimshwiz on January 03, 2023, 01:04:20 PM
Quote from: I on January 02, 2023, 02:25:27 PM
Quote from: rkhigdon on January 02, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
I know how it's going to play out with me: this fucker won't be getting one more dime from my wallet.
100% same here, LL is dead to me and books go in the bin for recycling. A shame it was my go to game for so long.
Mine too. Now this company is a relic of the past.
Also disappointed in this, but moving on with this PSA:
I'd like to remind you all that Castles & Crusades, produced here in the USA and devoid of such politicized drivel, is eminently compatible with pretty much all editions of D&D. Also the last company Gary Gygax worked with, if such things matter to you.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 03, 2023, 05:38:52 PM
Also disappointed in this, but moving on with this PSA:
I'd like to remind you all that Castles & Crusades, produced here in the USA and devoid of such politicized drivel, is eminently compatible with pretty much all editions of D&D. Also the last company Gary Gygax worked with, if such things matter to you.
I love C&C but never fit well with my group for some reason. I will be purchasing another set of corebooks again to support TLG.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on January 02, 2023, 08:06:35 PM
Sheesh! Now I feel sad I started this thread. I never knew what a tool he'd turn out to be!
Don't beat yourself up about it.
Shit happens. If I could see the future I would have already won the Powerball.
Quote from: I on January 02, 2023, 02:25:27 PM
Quote from: rkhigdon on January 02, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
I know how it's going to play out with me: this fucker won't be getting one more dime from my wallet.
It's like Dan is eagerly asking, "Who's ass can I kiss first, in the name of social justice?"
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 04, 2023, 12:55:15 AM
Quote from: I on January 02, 2023, 02:25:27 PM
Quote from: rkhigdon on January 02, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I wonder how Goblinoid Games statement on politics is going to play out.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1993232931066659/permalink/2066329003757051/
I know how it's going to play out with me: this fucker won't be getting one more dime from my wallet.
It's like Dan is eagerly asking, "Who's ass can I kiss first, in the name of social justice?"
Yeah, the timing on this feels like, "Uh-oh... people didn't like the way LL2 looked, so I'd better find which horn to toot to get some 'positive' attention."
Okay, let's for a moment agree with his statement that certain topics are not political but basic human rights, yada-yada... What "basic human rights" have anything to do with dungeon crawling and fantasy games? If he were to write in the opening paragraph of LL 2 ed that he wants lower taxes and better healthcare it would be just as appalling to me as his human rights manifesto. Imagine buying a board game and in the rules section, there's a paragraph about the creator's political views and sentiments. Equally absurd but somehow in TTRPG it is becoming a common practice.
I wonder what effect will this have on the game's rules.
Quote from: Mithgarthr on January 04, 2023, 07:00:21 AM
Yeah, the timing on this feels like, "Uh-oh... people didn't like the way LL2 looked, so I'd better find which horn to toot to get some 'positive' attention."
I don't know; I think it's more that between the TLG controversy and the PBS article on D&D, the Woke are turning their attention to the OSR, and he decided to pledge his loyalty publicly.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 04, 2023, 08:20:25 AM
Quote from: Mithgarthr on January 04, 2023, 07:00:21 AM
Yeah, the timing on this feels like, "Uh-oh... people didn't like the way LL2 looked, so I'd better find which horn to toot to get some 'positive' attention."
I don't know; I think it's more that between the TLG controversy and the PBS article on D&D, the Woke are turning their attention to the OSR, and he decided to pledge his loyalty publicly.
Possibly, but regardless of reason its equally lame and stupid.
Quote from: Warlock on January 04, 2023, 08:10:36 AM
I wonder what effect will this have on the game's rules.
Stupid shit like (maybe) changing Race to Species and (definitely) removing items like Girdle of Femininity.
Quote from: Warlock on January 04, 2023, 08:10:36 AM
Okay, let's for a moment agree with his statement that certain topics are not political but basic human rights, yada-yada... What "basic human rights" have anything to do with dungeon crawling and fantasy games? If he were to write in the opening paragraph of LL 2 ed that he wants lower taxes and better healthcare it would be just as appalling to me as his human rights manifesto. Imagine buying a board game and in the rules section, there's a paragraph about the creator's political views and sentiments. Equally absurd but somehow in TTRPG it is becoming a common practice.
I wonder what effect will this have on the game's rules.
Well, he's already said that he will be removing "offensive" magic items like the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, which he asserts was simply in the original game to make teenage boys feel uncomfortable playing female characters and is now apparently a manifestation of some kind of gender identification phobia.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 04, 2023, 08:53:16 AMWell, he's already said that he will be removing "offensive" magic items like the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, which he asserts was simply in the original game to make teenage boys feel uncomfortable playing female characters and is now apparently a manifestation of some kind of gender identification phobia.
In AD&D it can totally wreck your male fighter if you have exceptional strength, which makes it a pretty "good" cursed item to throw at the players. That said, wouldn't this sort of item actually be sought out by transgendered people? Seems like a boon...
Quote from: Warlock on January 04, 2023, 08:10:36 AMImagine buying a board game and in the rules section, there's a paragraph about the creator's political views and sentiments. Equally absurd but somehow in TTRPG it is becoming a common practice.
There's a boardgame called My Father's Work which is loosely based on Frankenstein. The rule's author spends an entire page of the rulebook accusing Mary Shelly of Xenophobia and Cultural Appropriation. So it isn't just RPGs where this is happening.
Sad to see another rpg publishers going woke though not surprised.
It funny how they use semantics with words .
" i wil make an overly obvious political statement yet if i write it's not political than it's suddenly not" line of reasoning. Like when people e add full stop after making a statement thinking no one is going to answer back.
Another purchaser of C&C here.
Read the Facebook page. Very unfortunate. I do like the Adv LL rules, but if this is where the 2nd ed is going, you can just count me out.
Besides, OSE (Old School Essentials) is the one OSR rule set that's got the backing behind it.
Just got the OSE player's and referee's books. they're beautiful, well organized, nice artwork.
Quote from: blackstone on January 04, 2023, 03:23:19 PM
Read the Facebook page. Very unfortunate. I do like the Adv LL rules, but if this is where the 2nd ed is going, you can just count me out.
Besides, OSE (Old School Essentials) is the one OSR rule set that's got the backing behind it.
Just got the OSE player's and referee's books. they're beautiful, well organized, nice artwork.
I have been dreading Gavin Norman coming out as woke in some way. I was on the Necrotic Gnome discord and it's infested with them. I love OSE and am really looking forward to the Dolmenwood Kickstarter, but I feel like it's inevitable that'll he'll do something just like Procter at some point.
Well I guess I am back on the hunt. With this announcement I can no longer support them as a company and support/buy LL products. Sad.
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 04, 2023, 04:49:00 PM
Well I guess I am back on the hunt. With this announcement I can no longer support them as a company and support/buy LL products. Sad.
Autarch have just announced an updated edition of ACKS, might be worth looking at - =AZWB9lb_kqAw_GZJdkr1i5ajctgo2TLNwDNlame2vIg4G0TBmpJKxiXw7WSr7xEkixB6PqyYvA32zqeHgr4_aF3HSPccS34c-a_sTkvChjX91DdfepRkgZdotmOXSJKFi97PsKo6lCsxQcpltStL5CNTxp-e5ne0IGfb66FQPQl-5cxL4mlgrqaMxyWigUBcPU4&__tn__=-UC%2CP-R]https://www.facebook.com/AutarchCo?__cft__[0]=AZWB9lb_kqAw_GZJdkr1i5ajctgo2TLNwDNlame2vIg4G0TBmpJKxiXw7WSr7xEkixB6PqyYvA32zqeHgr4_aF3HSPccS34c-a_sTkvChjX91DdfepRkgZdotmOXSJKFi97PsKo6lCsxQcpltStL5CNTxp-e5ne0IGfb66FQPQl-5cxL4mlgrqaMxyWigUBcPU4&__tn__=-UC%2CP-R (https://www.facebook.com/AutarchCo?__cft__%5B0)
Yep, he popped in here to say it was coming when I brought up the "2nd Ed" document from several years ago.
496 pages? Yeesh...I'll probably back it even though I don't particularly like ACKS.
Quote from: S'mon on January 04, 2023, 04:55:29 PM
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 04, 2023, 04:49:00 PM
Well I guess I am back on the hunt. With this announcement I can no longer support them as a company and support/buy LL products. Sad.
Autarch have just announced an updated edition of ACKS, might be worth looking at
Having seen all the Axioms over the years, and after talking to Alex a bit, I can safely say that this is as close to a no-brainer purchase as has ever been thrown in front of me.
Quote from: S'mon on January 04, 2023, 04:55:29 PM
Autarch have just announced an updated edition of ACKS, might be worth looking at - =AZWB9lb_kqAw_GZJdkr1i5ajctgo2TLNwDNlame2vIg4G0TBmpJKxiXw7WSr7xEkixB6PqyYvA32zqeHgr4_aF3HSPccS34c-a_sTkvChjX91DdfepRkgZdotmOXSJKFi97PsKo6lCsxQcpltStL5CNTxp-e5ne0IGfb66FQPQl-5cxL4mlgrqaMxyWigUBcPU4&__tn__=-UC%2CP-R]https://www.facebook.com/AutarchCo?__cft__[0]=AZWB9lb_kqAw_GZJdkr1i5ajctgo2TLNwDNlame2vIg4G0TBmpJKxiXw7WSr7xEkixB6PqyYvA32zqeHgr4_aF3HSPccS34c-a_sTkvChjX91DdfepRkgZdotmOXSJKFi97PsKo6lCsxQcpltStL5CNTxp-e5ne0IGfb66FQPQl-5cxL4mlgrqaMxyWigUBcPU4&__tn__=-UC%2CP-R (https://www.facebook.com/AutarchCo?__cft__%5B0)
Nice. What can you tell me about the game? Thanks.
Quote from: Brad on January 04, 2023, 05:17:44 PM
496 pages? Yeesh...I'll probably back it even though I don't particularly like ACKS.
What do you not like about it? Just curious.
I won't disparage those who like LL.
But hell, I knew it was gonna be bad when Greg Gillespie did the whole Bender thing of creating his own rule system with hookers and blow......and leaving LL behind.
Damn, who knew that Proctor was such a dishonest asshole? I felt bad for the guy when nobody liked his book preview, too. I suppose we can all just come right out and say it looked like dogshit now.
Well, piss on him. I'm tired of this.
Labyrinth Lord is niche within a niche within a niche (it's fuckin' niche-caption up in this bitch), and you just gave a sizeable chunk of said niche-ception the middle finger and decided to court people who won't and don't support your niche-ception.
Maybe Razorfist was right. It's not "Get woke, go broke", it's "Go broke, get woke".
Quote from: Abraxus on January 04, 2023, 11:30:02 AM
Sad to see another rpg publishers going woke though not surprised.
It funny how they use semantics with words .
" i wil make an overly obvious political statement yet if i write it's not political than it's suddenly not" line of reasoning. Like when people e add full stop after making a statement thinking no one is going to answer back.
Well, he's arguably right--it's not political, it's philosophical. It does, however, express a philosophy that I disagree with, and if agreement with that philosophy is the price of admission, I will gladly refrain from imposing my time, money, and attention upon his work. Shame, as I like a lot of the stuff James Mishler did for Labyrinth Lord, but that's easily migrated to B/X or C&C.
(I was already feeling nervous when Kidd was attached to LL 2E, based on what was said upthread and elsewhere.)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 04, 2023, 08:50:43 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on January 04, 2023, 11:30:02 AM
Sad to see another rpg publishers going woke though not surprised.
It funny how they use semantics with words .
" i wil make an overly obvious political statement yet if i write it's not political than it's suddenly not" line of reasoning. Like when people e add full stop after making a statement thinking no one is going to answer back.
Well, he's arguably right--it's not political, it's philosophical. It does, however, express a philosophy that I disagree with, and if agreement with that philosophy is the price of admission, I will gladly refrain from imposing my time, money, and attention upon his work. Shame, as I like a lot of the stuff James Mishler did for Labyrinth Lord, but that's easily migrated to B/X or C&C.
(I was already feeling nervous when Kidd was attached to LL 2E, based on what was said upthread and elsewhere.)
So, OSE for the Win?
I wonder how Greg Gillespie's BX project will turn out now?
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 04, 2023, 06:00:54 PM
What do you not like about it? Just curious.
I greatly dislike the combat system; I think it's convoluted and stupid. Also some of the economic stuff is obnoxious; the game tries to pass itself off as historical when it clearly is derived from old D&D tropes. However, I haven't even looked at it in like 10 years, so maybe I'd change my mind now that I'm less disgruntled.
Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 05:44:05 AM
I greatly dislike the combat system; I think it's convoluted and stupid. Also some of the economic stuff is obnoxious; the game tries to pass itself off as historical when it clearly is derived from old D&D tropes.
It's derived mostly from BX and BECMI D&D. The D&D economy does tend to resemble that of the Classical world of ancient Greece & Rome, certainly far more than it does a medieval economy, and ACKS leans into that. But it's obviously not an historical RPG. It's a Swords & Sorcery inflected retro-clone.
Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 05:44:05 AM
I greatly dislike the combat system; I think it's convoluted and stupid. Also some of the economic stuff is obnoxious; the game tries to pass itself off as historical when it clearly is derived from old D&D tropes. However, I haven't even looked at it in like 10 years, so maybe I'd change my mind now that I'm less disgruntled.
Ok thank you for letting me know. I am trying to come up with a good replacement system and I want to get a lot of information about all thee different systems so I can make the best choice.
Quote from: S'mon on January 06, 2023, 06:03:40 AM
It's derived mostly from BX and BECMI D&D. The D&D economy does tend to resemble that of the Classical world of ancient Greece & Rome, certainly far more than it does a medieval economy, and ACKS leans into that. But it's obviously not an historical RPG. It's a Swords & Sorcery inflected retro-clone.
That's probably a more accurate statement; like I said, it's been a while since I looked at it. My biggest gripe was the use of actual coinage instead of barter as the main means of trade, which is FINE for a game obviously, but not very historical. Whatever, the economy I can deal with, but I did go back and look at the combat system and yes, I hate it. It's like too many numbers, man! Whatever, I'll still back it because at least Alex Macris/Autarch isn't a flaming leftist faggot and he actually managed to deliver a product during the whole Dwimmermount debacle and deserves props for that.
Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 10:50:21 AM
I did go back and look at the combat system and yes, I hate it.
I'm not a fan either. I tend to refer to ACKS as a resource book for other systems like S&W.
Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 05:44:05 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 04, 2023, 06:00:54 PM
What do you not like about it? Just curious.
I greatly dislike the combat system; I think it's convoluted and stupid. Also some of the economic stuff is obnoxious; the game tries to pass itself off as historical when it clearly is derived from old D&D tropes. However, I haven't even looked at it in like 10 years, so maybe I'd change my mind now that I'm less disgruntled.
Always interesting to see other people's reactions. My group has played ACKS on and off for years, and have never found combat stupid or convoluted. In fact, it seems perfectly in line with a lot of flavors of early D&D so everybody took to it pretty easily. And that's from a mixed group of original old school gamers, as well as more modern 3E+ gamers.
As for the rest of the stuff, have you followed Alex's posts on the forums or seen his work in Axioms? He's revised and revisited a lot of the economic stuff over the years, so some amount of it may be more to your liking. As far as the history vs D&D trope aspect, I'd say it's a mix. He definitely uses systems to reinforce some old D&D tropes, which I think he does with pretty good success. He also tries to start with some informed historical data for a lot of the systems, but he also has to account for the nature of the game world as one which has magic, monsters, and heroes of superhuman ability. The truth is ACKS is NOT based on actual history so penalizing it for such seems a bit off.
We're probably a bit off thread here. I wonder if we started another thread (say about the incoming 2nd edition) we could summon Alex to some discussion about some of the design decisions involved.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 06, 2023, 01:21:48 AM
So, OSE for the Win?
How do you compare OSE (Old School Essentials) to say Basic Fantasy?
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 06, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
How do you compare OSE (Old School Essentials) to say Basic Fantasy?
OSE is B/X with a modern layout.
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 06, 2023, 02:00:20 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 06, 2023, 01:21:48 AM
So, OSE for the Win?
How do you compare OSE (Old School Essentials) to say Basic Fantasy?
OSE is B/X with better organization. Since B/X was the first RPG I played, it will always hold a special place for me. I also find it the easiest game to run. The adventures definitely have a certain flavor and style, though it's not necessarily my favorite style. I do love the digest-sizing, especially when it comes to carrying stuff around.
BFRPG is "Boring Fantasy" so far as I'm concerned. It does nothing for me in the way of presentation or style. There's nothing necessarily wrong with it besides being boringly derivative. Artwork is boring. The modules are generally inferior knockoffs of the originals. I prefer descending AC as well, though I've softened my stance on that. But at least it sells for the right price.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 06, 2023, 02:27:35 PM
BFRPG is "Boring Fantasy" so far as I'm concerned. It does nothing for me in the way of presentation or style. There's nothing necessarily wrong with it besides being boringly derivative. Artwork is boring. The modules are generally inferior knockoffs of the originals. I prefer descending AC as well, though I've softened my stance on that. But at least it sells for the right price.
BFRPG is the only OSR game I ever got rid of. I had everything in print and disposed of it over the summer. Just nothing compelling about it, honestly.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 06, 2023, 02:27:35 PM
OSE is B/X with better organization. Since B/X was the first RPG I played, it will always hold a special place for me. I also find it the easiest game to run. The adventures definitely have a certain flavor and style, though it's not necessarily my favorite style. I do love the digest-sizing, especially when it comes to carrying stuff around.
BFRPG is "Boring Fantasy" so far as I'm concerned. It does nothing for me in the way of presentation or style. There's nothing necessarily wrong with it besides being boringly derivative. Artwork is boring. The modules are generally inferior knockoffs of the originals. I prefer descending AC as well, though I've softened my stance on that. But at least it sells for the right price.
Cool thank you for letting me know.
Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 05:44:05 AM
Quote from: GhostNinja on January 04, 2023, 06:00:54 PM
What do you not like about it? Just curious.
I greatly dislike the combat system; I think it's convoluted and stupid. Also some of the economic stuff is obnoxious; the game tries to pass itself off as historical when it clearly is derived from old D&D tropes. However, I haven't even looked at it in like 10 years, so maybe I'd change my mind now that I'm less disgruntled.
My problems as well. Why mess around with straightforward ascending AC!? Different for
no reason.
As for the economic stuff - I like the idea behind it, but poop or get off the pot. Either lean to the historical like Pundit does in Lion and Dragon, or go full gonzo weird fantasy.
ACKS does a Sword and Sorcery D&D implied setting with this underpinning of real world economics, but with gold pieces. It's just a weird juxtaposition that doesn't really work for me.
But he sells - so someone out there really likes that mix...
Quote from: Brad on January 06, 2023, 03:06:21 PM
BFRPG is the only OSR game I ever got rid of. I had everything in print and disposed of it over the summer. Just nothing compelling about it, honestly.
Yeah I played BFRPG and I was bored. There wasn't much to character creation, they felt 2d and the options were very limited.
I will probably never run ACKS. It's designed for a different target audience. I have almost all the books, and will almost assuredly buy the 2nd editions, despite the fact that I've made a concerted, largely successful effort over the last 10-15 years to stop buying games that I probably won't run. My gaming shelves are overall smaller than they were before that time, and shrinking every year.
The reason why I still buy ACKS is odd. Every now and then, someone has a game that is off enough from what I want to make me think about how I run things, but close enough to still be useful. I'm in an adjacent target audience, not dead one. Plus, I have a soft spot for things that do what they are intended to do--even what they are intended to do isn't for me.