Hiya,

See, I wanted to tell you about my game.

I'm running an RQ game (Avalon Hill RQ, but everyone's ideas are welcome even if they're for MRQ or any other edition). This game was originally set in Greece, in 589 AD, but also involved time travel to ancient Mycenes around the age of the War of Troy, Olympic Gods, Pegasus and all that.

The thing is, the main plot was about the PCs trying to get rid of a curse that fell unto them after sacking Agammenon's tomb, and closing a gate to Gloranthat that was being used by Krarsht to get a hold on Earth. They succeeded, albeit partially, as the gate was closed and the Black Temple destroyed. But the PCs lacked the power to close it for good: the Gate will re-open in 3 years.

Then the PCs were contacted by the mysterious Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, who told them that if they wanted, they could muster the power to close the gate and fulfill their dreams (one of the PCs want to become King of Hispania, the other two want to restore the Amazons to their former glory), by traveling to another world and fetching the Sword of the Winds, a mythic artifact that is the bane of Chaos. The PCs rock that, so Ningauble gives them the ancient map of the Griffin Island, by the old Roman Hero Caius Aigonus (I have no shame).

Thing is, the PCs prepare for the trip through Ningauble's cavern and all that, and one of my players announce me that he intends to spread Christianity (Arrianism) on this new world.

Thing is, I like the idea, so I told him that I would try and translate anciente Christianity in RQ terms, and that he would be successful or not according to his own actions and devices.

So, I'm looking to do just that, and I ask for help and ideas. This far, I'm between two ideas, but I'm not sure on how accurate they're in emulating the old religion:

1) Christians have no spells, but they have some sort of dispelling magic aura tht protects them from sorcery and allows them to ask for Divine Intervention more easily than the regular rules.

2) Christianity is treated like a regular religion. The cult skills would be Ceremony, Oratory, Read Language, First Aid and Cultural Lore (?), and the spells would be centered on healing and protection both magical and physical.

What do you think, guys?

QuoteWhat do you think, guys?

I think you are treading on very thin ice and you're going to end up making people very unhappy. People are never happy with the fantasy stats you give to gods they actually believe in. If someone genuinely believes in the existence of a One True God, whatever version they happen to worship, they are going to be sorely disappointed with any stats you give to their god.

People are fine with Hextor or Pelor or whatever winning or losing a contest, or their priests either being able to do something or not in any particular situation. It's all fantasy, and no one is emotionally invested in the outcome. But Jesus or Allah or whatever is going to really cause hurt feelings if they win or lose in any contest with any other fantasy god. Because the players (not the characters) really care about the outcome.

Statting up real world religions and political figures is always trouble. People think they want it, but they really don't. The only way you can really make a true believer happy is to make sure that their deity cannot lose - but that just makes the game unfun in numerous other ways.

-Frank

I think it depends on how true to the source material you're trying to be. If you're going for full authenticity, as close as you can get in a fictional setting that is, then the first option is probably better. Christians are forbidden from engaging in occult practices. Note the Bible never says the occult doesn't exist; it simply says not to mess with it, so the existence of accessible magic in a world where a permutation of Christianity exists isn't problematic.

I'm unsure what to do about divine intervention. Don't get me wrong; I'm not a deist by any means. But I do hold to visible miracles and special extra-biblical revelation being extremely rare events. So personally I wouldn't make divine intervention more likely; in fact, it might be less likely(or at least less obvious when it does occur). But I suppose you could borrow from a more charismatic tradition if you want your fantasy Christianity to do that.

If you're less concerned with authenticity, the second route would make sense enough. I literally have no idea what "domains" you'd give its spells, though. I don't know how exactly they're set up in RQ, but I can think of examples in Christian theology that would show YHWH demonstrating mastery of all 10 of the Mage arcana(if you know what those are). But you're right -- most people go straight to the stories involving healing and resurrection, so life and healing stuff is an obvious choice for a pseudo-Christian religion. If someone brings up all the other stuff He's responsible for . . . well, you can always pull the "He's a deity and can do stuff His followers aren't so good at" card. I'm sure you do it with the other pseudo-deities in the setting as well.

I did have a bwuh moment, though, when I read the pseudo-religion's name. Arrianism? Really? The RQ writers did that??? Unless their "bizzaro Arius" -- Arrius, I guess, since they did put in an extra r -- didn't go off the rails, and didn't get voted down 300 to 2 at Nicea while being sucker-punched by Santa Claus(that last bit may be an embellishment, though it's a popular one, and one I find amusing). Naming the fictional version of a religion after one of its best-known major heresies . . . was there really no other more appropriate theological idea or symbol or something they could have used? Ai yah.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;388893I did have a bwuh moment, though, when I read the pseudo-religion's name. Arrianism? Really? The RQ writers did that??? Unless their "bizzaro Arius" -- Arrius, I guess, since they did put in an extra r -- didn't go off the rails, and didn't get voted down 300 to 2 at Nicea while being sucker-punched by Santa Claus(that last bit may be an embellishment, though it's a popular one, and one I find amusing). Naming the fictional version of a religion after one of its best-known major heresies . . . was there really no other more appropriate theological idea or symbol or something they could have used? Ai yah.

I think what the OP means is that the PC is an adherent of the Arian branch of Christianity.

I'd go with the first--it sounds a bit more distinct and fun to me.  Arianism is an interesting choice!  You'll have to let us know how it goes.

Agreed with above on the occult.  The Bible has witches and sorcerers aplenty.  It's just something Christians are warned off of.

Lots of good stuff

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388888I think you are treading on very thin ice and you're going to end up making people very unhappy. People are never happy with the fantasy stats you give to gods they actually believe in. If someone genuinely believes in the existence of a One True God, whatever version they happen to worship, they are going to be sorely disappointed with any stats you give to their god.[snip]

Statting up real world religions and political figures is always trouble. People think they want it, but they really don't. The only way you can really make a true believer happy is to make sure that their deity cannot lose - but that just makes the game unfun in numerous other ways.

-Frank

I really apreciate your comment and I think that generally speaking is good advice. Said that, I don't think it will be a problem because all my players (and most gamers I know in Spain) are full blown atheists. I may have met 2 or maybe 3 devout gamers, not more. And they were not concerned about in-game depiction of Christianity. Actually, a very popular game here is Aquelarre, a medieval game based in actual myths, legends and beliefs of the Spanish Middle Ages, and it makes a depiction of Christianity quite close to reality. Which is not nice. Also, black magic seriously rocks from a mechanical standpoint. No one cares.

I feel it shows the cultural differences between Europe and the States. Here, religion is a big part of the culture background, but at street level no one cares about it that much. Specially gamers, who tend around here to be pretty scientifically minded and predominantly atheists.

Anyway, thanks for the input. Valuable advice, nonetheless.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;388893I think it depends on how true to the source material you're trying to be. If you're going for full authenticity, as close as you can get in a fictional setting that is, then the first option is probably better. Christians are forbidden from engaging in occult practices. Note the Bible never says the occult doesn't exist; it simply says not to mess with it, so the existence of accessible magic in a world where a permutation of Christianity exists isn't problematic.

I'm unsure what to do about divine intervention. Don't get me wrong; I'm not a deist by any means. But I do hold to visible miracles and special extra-biblical revelation being extremely rare events. So personally I wouldn't make divine intervention more likely; in fact, it might be less likely(or at least less obvious when it does occur). But I suppose you could borrow from a more charismatic tradition if you want your fantasy Christianity to do that.

If you're less concerned with authenticity, the second route would make sense enough. I literally have no idea what "domains" you'd give its spells, though. I don't know how exactly they're set up in RQ, but I can think of examples in Christian theology that would show YHWH demonstrating mastery of all 10 of the Mage arcana(if you know what those are). But you're right -- most people go straight to the stories involving healing and resurrection, so life and healing stuff is an obvious choice for a pseudo-Christian religion. If someone brings up all the other stuff He's responsible for . . . well, you can always pull the "He's a deity and can do stuff His followers aren't so good at" card. I'm sure you do it with the other pseudo-deities in the setting as well.

I did have a bwuh moment, though, when I read the pseudo-religion's name. Arrianism? Really? The RQ writers did that??? Unless their "bizzaro Arius" -- Arrius, I guess, since they did put in an extra r -- didn't go off the rails, and didn't get voted down 300 to 2 at Nicea while being sucker-punched by Santa Claus(that last bit may be an embellishment, though it's a popular one, and one I find amusing). Naming the fictional version of a religion after one of its best-known major heresies . . . was there really no other more appropriate theological idea or symbol or something they could have used? Ai yah.

The "arrianism" word was my mistake. As daztur pointed out this PC is a noble Goth who adheres to the Arian branch of Christianity. That'swhy he was banished from Hispania, and that's why he wants to be king, so he will institute the 'right' Christianity Actually, metn Olympic gds and monsters has only strenghtened his resolve.

The rest of your post is good advice: even if I go with the 2nd option I would present the divine spells as miracles granted by prayers and that, and I would go with healing and defence only as those are not usually frowned upon by Christianity.

Keep up with the good ideas!

I'd suggest you go for broke and totally introduce in your campaign the philosophical struggle between Paganism and Christianity. Instead of making Christianity just another religion, mechanically identical to the already existing ones, try to make it a new and different force which face its Rationality against the Irrationality of Pagan magic (hindering the arcane effects, as the Banality in Mage).
A campaign of religious conflict in The Griffin Island will be close enough to the situation in Arthurian England as has been discussed in several fantasy works (The Warlord Chronicles by B. Cornwell, or The mists of Avalon by M.Z. Bradley): shamanic tribal traditions versus the new, "civilizing", alien religion, etc.
As I assume, perhaps boldly, that you're Spanish or t least Spanish-speaking (¡El Portal de Karsh*it!) I'd recommend you to make do with the rules of old beloved Aquelarre, which manage the conflict Heaven vs Hell/Rationality vs Irrationality since its 1st ed.

How is the PC going to explain Christianity given that it's before the birth of Christ?

"Look fellahs, this son of God appears born of a virgin and then is killed and rises again on the third day -"
"When did this happen?"
"Um, in about a thousand years from now."
"Oh okay, write it down, we'll think about it later."

Won't the PC just be Isaiah?

Christian missionary in Glorantha meets Malkionites.

Hilarity ensues.

Convert the broo.

Quote from: Lizaur;388917I'd suggest you go for broke and totally introduce in your campaign the philosophical struggle between Paganism and Christianity. Instead of making Christianity just another religion, mechanically identical to the already existing ones, try to make it a new and different force which face its Rationality against the Irrationality of Pagan magic (hindering the arcane effects, as the Banality in Mage).
A campaign of religious conflict in The Griffin Island will be close enough to the situation in Arthurian England as has been discussed in several fantasy works (The Warlord Chronicles by B. Cornwell, or The mists of Avalon by M.Z. Bradley): shamanic tribal traditions versus the new, "civilizing", alien religion, etc.
As I assume, perhaps boldly, that you're Spanish or t least Spanish-speaking (¡El Portal de Karsh*it!) I'd recommend you to make do with the rules of old beloved Aquelarre, which manage the conflict Heaven vs Hell/Rationality vs Irrationality since its 1st ed.

Yeah, I was aiming to an Arthurian feel; main difference would be that I am not determined to make Christianity win over time. Everything will depend on the player.

And yes, I'm Spanish. I live in Barcelona, and have beers regularly with Aquelarre's author I hadn't thought of using them, but it makes sense.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;388919How is the PC going to explain Christianity given that it's before the birth of Christ?

Maybe I wrote it wrong, but the campaign was set initially in 589 AD, they travelled to ancient Mycenes and went back to their own time. And then, they travel to another world (my homebrewn fantasy RQ setting).

Quote from: Imperator;388883Hiya,

See, I wanted to tell you about my game.

I'm running an RQ game (Avalon Hill RQ, but everyone's ideas are welcome even if they're for MRQ or any other edition). This game was originally set in Greece, in 589 AD, but also involved time travel to ancient Mycenes around the age of the War of Troy, Olympic Gods, Pegasus and all that.

The thing is, the main plot was about the PCs trying to get rid of a curse that fell unto them after sacking Agammenon's tomb, and closing a gate to Gloranthat that was being used by Krarsht to get a hold on Earth. They succeeded, albeit partially, as the gate was closed and the Black Temple destroyed. But the PCs lacked the power to close it for good: the Gate will re-open in 3 years.

Then the PCs were contacted by the mysterious Ningauble of the Seven Eyes, who told them that if they wanted, they could muster the power to close the gate and fulfill their dreams (one of the PCs want to become King of Hispania, the other two want to restore the Amazons to their former glory), by traveling to another world and fetching the Sword of the Winds, a mythic artifact that is the bane of Chaos. The PCs rock that, so Ningauble gives them the ancient map of the Griffin Island, by the old Roman Hero Caius Aigonus (I have no shame).

Thing is, the PCs prepare for the trip through Ningauble's cavern and all that, and one of my players announce me that he intends to spread Christianity (Arrianism) on this new world.

Thing is, I like the idea, so I told him that I would try and translate anciente Christianity in RQ terms, and that he would be successful or not according to his own actions and devices.

So, I'm looking to do just that, and I ask for help and ideas. This far, I'm between two ideas, but I'm not sure on how accurate they're in emulating the old religion:

1) Christians have no spells, but they have some sort of dispelling magic aura tht protects them from sorcery and allows them to ask for Divine Intervention more easily than the regular rules.

2) Christianity is treated like a regular religion. The cult skills would be Ceremony, Oratory, Read Language, First Aid and Cultural Lore (?), and the spells would be centered on healing and protection both magical and physical.

What do you think, guys?

It may be fun to give them spells. If I remember, and I am not well versed in the new testament by any stretch, Jesus gave his disciples the power to expel spirits and to cure diseases. So that might be a good bases for spells. One of the problems with real world religions in games like this is they tend to be less sexy because they just don't have the magic powers you find in fantasy religions or that we often attribute to extinct religions. I say, get a little creative, so the religion is more attractive to the players.

My solution in my OD&D campaign is to treat Saints as the game would treat "deities". The Almighty is off limits, unknowable, without stats etc. Priests, faithful believers etc. might choose a Patron Saint, and this Saint would fulfill the purpose of a "deity" as far as say, Spheres in AD&D2 or Domains in 3rd ed would be concerned.

Contemporary Christianity would have been filled with folk magic and miraculous intervention that is easily represented by RQ's divine spell system. Spells need not focus only healing and protection - smiting enemies, blessing crops, and increasing sexual stamina (to name only three) would also be in line with practices / beliefs at the time.

Don't forget that magic swords and armour are extremely common as well. Clovis' "salvation-giving helmet" is a particularly funny example, but enchanting a blade by putting the name of a martyr or a saint on it would be stock stuff.

Really, until the new piety comes along at the start of the high middle ages, Christianity is not extremely different in its folk practices from many of the religions it replaced.

Even today, how many Christians believe in astrology or psychics? The "Christianity of priests" is the one that gets written down, but it's not necessarily the most popular.