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So, there's a hole in my gaming collection, which is East Asian-themed fantasy.

Before someone barges in accusing me of being a culturally insensive, ethnocentric SOB, I know Qin is Wuxia fantasy in a mythic China, while L5R is set in a fantasy ersatz-Japan. I can also appreciate the fact that ninja and samurai and katana are Japanese, while kung fu and fancy names like Heart of Jade are Chinese. I just don't care all that much, and I'll be just as happy playing a kung-fu fighting shaolin or a staff-swinging sohei. I am not looking for pretentious emulation of history of genre fiction, just some fun with an East Asian flavor.

L5R has a new edition (http://www.l5r.com/rpg/) which caught my eye. I am wary of L5R because of the White Wolf-ish stereotypical Clan split, the forced choice between bushi and shugenja, the metaplot baggage carried over from the card game, and the $60 price tag. I don't know jack about the system. I played R&K once (7th Sea) and while the specifics escape me, I remember we hated it for some reason. I kind of like the setting, both the idea of "high fantasy Japan vs. nasty demons" and its being divorced from any pretension of historical fidelity or fine-tuned genre emulation.

I've had my eye on Qin for some time now. I've read several reviews, and the system looks like something I could handle, being neither too crunchy nor too simplistic. I am no connoisseur of Wuxia (literary or cinematic), but the concept of the xia -- wandering heroes fighting injustice with flashy swordsmanship -- is one we're certainly familiar with. The Pundit's review of the Beastiary hints at the interesting, rich cultural tidbits - which is exactly the sort of "color" I'd like to have for this game. The setting is more subdued, sort of like a Dragon Warriors to L5R's Warhammer, and I see merit in both.

Feel free to suggest other games in a similar vein. Exalted and Weapons of the Gods need not apply. I own Sengoku and it's a great sourcebook, but Fuzion sucks (and Active Exploits is not bad, but doesn't grab me either).

I haven't played Qin so I can't comment on it.   My katana-fantasy games have been AD&D's Oriental Adventures, Bushido and L5R 1e, 2e and 3e.

If you enjoy Old School D&D, you can't go wrong with Gygax's OA book.  Just like how D&D is an amalgam of western myths, Oriental Adventures is a mish-mosh of Asian myth & Hollywood.   It plays fast and easy and has lots of kewl bits like honor, family and the calendar.

As for L5R, I am a fan.  However, after playing 3 editions, I have gone back to just using L5R 1e.   The clan split and the bushi/shugenja split are great for players.  I am "Clan / Class" is such a simple shorthand that players get it very easily so then you can prance along with the non-Western fantasy aspects of the setting instead of overwhelming them.

Roll & Keep is very simple and its just Roll X dice and keep the highest Y dice and see if you hit the Target Number.   If you are a daring mofo, you can voluntarily take Raises to increase the TN in exchange for special effects.  And 10s explode...aka roll another d10 and add it up.

Example:  My samurai has Reflex 3 + Katana 3.   I roll 6D10 and keep the highest 3 dice.  If I roll 2, 4, 5 ,6 , 4 , 10, I keep 5/6/10 and roll the explosion (say 9) so my total is 30 which will smack somebody nicely.

L5R is deadly.  I got to play once with John Wick and he described L5R samurai as "highly repressed adolescents swinging three foot razor blades" and if you get hit hard, you are probably gonna die.   Thus, players quickly learn to choose their battles very carefully.  

As for the metaplot from the CCG, it's got lots of crazy.  However, in 1e the metaplot is VERY background compared to the focus on introducing the setting.   As a L5R GM, ignoring the metaplot is easy because there are so many places in the timeline to put your campaign.

If L5R intrigues you, hunt down a copy of the 1e corebook.  It's all you need for a campaign and you can probably snag one off eBay for $20 with shipping.

JOhn Wick doesn't half talk some shit.

Qin is far superior to L5R.

Quote from: Spinachcat;387790I got to play once with John Wick and he described L5R samurai as "highly repressed adolescents swinging three foot razor blades"

Precisely the reason I never picked up L5R. :D  

I wouldn't call someone who was willing to end their life in protest to being given a dishonorable command an "adolescent" but, that's just me. :rolleyes:

Quote from: CRKrueger;387895Precisely the reason I never picked up L5R. :D  

I wouldn't call someone who was willing to end their life in protest to being given a dishonorable command an "adolescent" but, that's just me. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I've been of the opinion that John Wick never really understood his subject with regard to the samurai, but I have to give him credit for understanding his target audience well enough. :teehee:

Seriously, L5R is supposed to be a pastiche "generic fantasy Asia" in the same way that most default D&D games are set in a "generic fantasy Europe".  Take the setting and tune it one way or another to get the feel that you want.  Also, as Spinachcat suggests, the system and background got needlessly fiddly as the years and editions wore on, and possibly the most enjoyable approach is to just fall back on a second-hand copy of the first edition (which I've seen regularly at the local Half Price Books for $10-$15).  Pair that with your copy of Sengoku for source material, and I think you'd be good for plenty of play.

I'm still unfamiliar with Qin, though it would apparently scratch a certain itch I have from time to time.

!i!

Remember that Rokugan (the L5R setting) is NOT supposed to be Japan.   L5R Samurai are as accurate to Japanese samurai as D&D's paladins are to actual medieval knights.

If you are looking for "Ancient Japan: the RPG", L5R is absolutely not it.   It ain't even "Japanese Myth: the RPG" because its all about the pastiche.

Take the honor system.   It's laughably ludicrious and only two steps removed from Paranoia, but great fun to play because it is a roleplaying straitjacket.   My players talk about how the court is only slightly less dangerous than the battlefield.

Overall, I don't keep going back to L5R for the system or the setting.  I go back because I keep having these really awesome roleplay sessions that challenge my players differently than other RPGs.  

I am not saying "L5R is real roleplay, unlike game XYZ".   I am saying that I find myself and my players using different RP muscles.   The simplistic Clan / Class becomes interesting building blocks we interact with as we deal with the dramatic challenges of the social system with its insane contradictions.    

And then to relieve the tension, we whack lots of bakemono and Oni.

Quote from: Spinachcat;387790If you enjoy Old School D&D, you can't go wrong with Gygax's OA book.  Just like how D&D is an amalgam of western myths, Oriental Adventures is a mish-mosh of Asian myth & Hollywood.   It plays fast and easy and has lots of kewl bits like honor, family and the calendar.

I've seriously considered reskinning C&C (knight = samurai, monk = sohei, cleric = yamabushi, assassin = ninja, rogue = yakuza, etc.) and throwing in some OA stuff for good measure.

Quote from: Spinachcat;387790As for L5R, I am a fan.  However, after playing 3 editions, I have gone back to just using L5R 1e.   The clan split and the bushi/shugenja split are great for players.  I am "Clan / Class" is such a simple shorthand that players get it very easily so then you can prance along with the non-Western fantasy aspects of the setting instead of overwhelming them.

I can live with the Clan split, but "samurai, wizard or nothing" doesn't appeal to me. I'd feel kind of stupid running an ostensibly Japanese fantasy game, and not allowing my players to play ninja or sohei, for example. How hard is it to houserule new classes?

Quote from: Spinachcat;387790Roll & Keep is very simple and its just Roll X dice and keep the highest Y dice and see if you hit the Target Number.   If you are a daring mofo, you can voluntarily take Raises to increase the TN in exchange for special effects.  And 10s explode...aka roll another d10 and add it up.

The actual system sounds simple enough. How's character creation?

Quote from: Spinachcat;387790L5R is deadly.  I got to play once with John Wick and he described L5R samurai as "highly repressed adolescents swinging three foot razor blades" and if you get hit hard, you are probably gonna die.   Thus, players quickly learn to choose their battles very carefully.

Par of the course for John Wick. :rolleyes:

System lethality is good for a chanbara emulator, though. My vague recollection is that it's a fairly gritty, bloody genre, though I could be mistaken.

Quote from: Spinachcat;387790As for the metaplot from the CCG, it's got lots of crazy.  However, in 1e the metaplot is VERY background compared to the focus on introducing the setting.   As a L5R GM, ignoring the metaplot is easy because there are so many places in the timeline to put your campaign.

Sir, I used to run oWoD all the time. I have a PhD in Telling Metaplot To Fuck Off. :D

Quote from: Spinachcat;387790If L5R intrigues you, hunt down a copy of the 1e corebook.  It's all you need for a campaign and you can probably snag one off eBay for $20 with shipping.

I suspect a friend has a copy gathering dust on his shelf; I'll check it out.

Thank you for the very comprehensive response!

Quote from: Ian Absentia;387899Seriously, L5R is supposed to be a pastiche "generic fantasy Asia" in the same way that most default D&D games are set in a "generic fantasy Europe".  Take the setting and tune it one way or another to get the feel that you want.  

A feature, not a bug, in my book. I'm less concerned about "ZOMG realism" and more about "ZOMG flashy martial arts".

Quote from: Ian Absentia;387899Also, as Spinachcat suggests, the system and background got needlessly fiddly as the years and editions wore on, and possibly the most enjoyable approach is to just fall back on a second-hand copy of the first edition (which I've seen regularly at the local Half Price Books for $10-$15).  Pair that with your copy of Sengoku for source material, and I think you'd be good for plenty of play.

Another vote for 1e, I'll definitely look into it.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;387899I'm still unfamiliar with Qin, though it would apparently scratch a certain itch I have from time to time.

Guarding obvious differences in subject matter, what is it that you feel Qin would deliver, that L5R doesn't?

Quote from: Spinachcat;387923If you are looking for "Ancient Japan: the RPG", L5R is absolutely not it.   It ain't even "Japanese Myth: the RPG" because its all about the pastiche.

Take the honor system.   It's laughably ludicrious and only two steps removed from Paranoia, but great fun to play because it is a roleplaying straitjacket.   My players talk about how the court is only slightly less dangerous than the battlefield.

I like this. :D

Quote from: Spinachcat;387923Overall, I don't keep going back to L5R for the system or the setting.

Why do you say that? Do you feel other systems and/or settings could give you a comparable experience?

Quote from: Spinachcat;387923And then to relieve the tension, we whack lots of bakemono and Oni.

I cannot overemphasize how important this is for my group. Courtly intrigue is well and good, but a few interesting combats here and there are de rigueur.

Quote from: The Butcher;387950Guarding obvious differences in subject matter, what is it that you feel Qin would deliver, that L5R doesn't?

From what I understand of Qin, historical/legendary versimilitude while retaining gonzo action.  Frankly, it's what I did with L5R, which I never set in Rokugan, and instead set in a pseudo-Kamakura/Moromachi period Japan.  I kept all of the clans and political structure as-is, but ported them over to a real world topography and tweaked the game history to fit the real world's.  It may not have washed well with the L5R fan base at large, but it played well to my own sensibilities.

!i!

I've played L5R since 1st addition and love the game but have to say Qin here. As a setting it manages to capture a mythic, rather than fantasy, feel which blends seamlessly with the historical setting. The system is much simpler than L5R but incredibly versatile enabling highly flavored and spectacular combats. It can cover anything from old school wuxia to martial arthouse and combinations there of. Ultimately I think Qin is capable of producing a sense of wonder in its atmosphere that L5R cannot manage.

I'm running the final arc of a long L5R campaign, and while I also own 3rd edition, I chose to run 1st edition because it is more intuitive and less tangled in storyline crap...

Haven't played Qin, but I hear good things too.

Much like Spinachcat, I like L5R because of the social emphasis of the Honor and Glory systems. It helps build social complications very well, which is at least in theory, what confronting the difficulties of being a Samurai in Rokugan is all about.
The L5R setting is also extremely versatile, whether you want a political game, a horror game, a mystery, high magic or adventure (or even romantic) game, L5R can do it.

Quote from: The Butcher;387948I've seriously considered reskinning C&C (knight = samurai, monk = sohei, cleric = yamabushi, assassin = ninja, rogue = yakuza, etc.) and throwing in some OA stuff for good measure.

Check on the C&C and Dragonsfoot forums.   I imagine somebody has hacked together C&C and Oriental Adventures.   It would be very easy to do.

Quote from: The Butcher;387948I can live with the Clan split, but "samurai, wizard or nothing" doesn't appeal to me. I'd feel kind of stupid running an ostensibly Japanese fantasy game, and not allowing my players to play ninja or sohei, for example. How hard is it to houserule new classes?

In L5R 1e, ninjas officially do not exist.   However, the Scorpion clan has access to "dishonorable skills and weapons" and their splat book has lots of ninja stuff.  

As for Sohei, it depends how you define them.   If you are looking to make a katana swinging mage, you can do that...somewhat.  A shukenja is free to put his ability and skill points anywhere and you certain could create a competant warrior who is an okay caster.  

As for creating new classes in L5R, I imagine it wouldn't be hard.  I don't have all the splats so its quite possible they may have something already in writing.

Quote from: The Butcher;387948The actual system sounds simple enough. How's character creation?

Slower than AD&D, somewhat easier than oWoD.    It is point-buy, modified by your Clan and School.   First character will take an hour, the next dozen will be 30 minutes - assuming everyone has the book.

Since the clans are stereotypes (Lion = proud/war, Crane = beauty/nobility, Crab = brutal/strong), the GM can do lots of the mechanical chargen for your players after having a general discussion.  

I'm also a big fan of pre-gens and doing one-shots before trying to get players to commit to something new.

Quote from: The Butcher;387950A feature, not a bug, in my book. I'm less concerned about "ZOMG realism" and more about "ZOMG flashy martial arts".

L5R doesn't do much martial arts oddly enough.   However, Oriental Adventures has a cool martial arts creation system for AD&D that would convert to C&C easily.

Quote from: The Butcher;387948Why do you say that? Do you feel other systems and/or settings could give you a comparable experience?

I am sure some other system/setting could give me a comparable experience, but in my 30 years of gaming, I have found L5R gives something unique - and its not about the plot or characters, but about the immersion in the drama of honor vs. duty vs. intrigue.  

I love Oriental Adventures and if I want "Chanbara D&D", I'd run it again and it would be a blast.   The kensai would guard the wujen while the ninja scouted ahead in the dungeon and we'd have a hoot.  

Much akin to how Paranoia and CoC have their own play experience that I have not seen duplicated, there is something deeply flavorful that my players always seem to get into within the L5R combo of color-coded stereotype clans mixed with the Honor system in a gonzo and overly melodramatic realm.  

Who knows?  Maybe its just my players.

For a more authentic samurai feel, may I suggest Blood & Honor (http://johnwickpresents.com/marketplace/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=21) ?

If you ever wanted to play old pc game "Sword of the Samurai" on the table, now you can. ;)

4e came around quickly, we never got a chance to exploit all that 3rd edition had to offer...
 
Is 4e closer to 1e/3e or 2e?

Quote from: The Butcher;387739I am not looking for pretentious emulation of history of genre fiction, just some fun with an East Asian flavor.

In that case you might want to stay clear of Qin as the game as quite an extensive and very well researched/put together history part and if you are not looking for at least semi-historic emulation then you are throwing out a huge junk of the book.

QuoteI am not looking for pretentious emulation of history of genre fiction, just some fun with an East Asian flavor.

Sorry, just saw this now. Forget about Blood & Honor too, as it has a understructure of fiction emulation tied to it (clan creation, Honor pool, etc.).

Quote from: Saphim;388144In that case you might want to stay clear of Qin as the game as quite an extensive and very well researched/put together history part and if you are not looking for at least semi-historic emulation then you are throwing out a huge junk of the book.

Quote from: silva;388151Sorry, just saw this now. Forget about Blood & Honor too, as it has a understructure of fiction emulation tied to it (clan creation, Honor pool, etc.).

It's not a deal-breaker, either, unless the book expects or requires you to read extensively on the subject matter. "Semi-historic" is definitely within the bounds I've set for myself. What I don't want is players whining about how they can't have katanas because it's a Heian Period game, or whether King X ruled Y state in Z year of W Dynasty. Extra setting information is always a plus, as long as it's easily handwaved away.

Oriental Adventures would be an easy answer, but I am looking for a bit more tha "D&D in faux Japan". I kind of like the idea of mechanics like Honor and Glory, enforcing a distinct "feel". Sounds like L5R and B&H have this covered. How about Qin?

My recommendation is Usagi Yojimbo, the Sanguine version. In my opinion it's the best chanbara RPG ever, it emulates perfectly the tropes of chanbara, like one-hero-against-many, worthy opponents, cool stunts, fighting schools, fighting with no armor etc. There is a thread about Usagi Yojimbo here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=16926&highlight=usagi).

Legend of the Five Rings resembles superficially Japanese culture with Chinese geography, but that's where the similarities end. Rokugan is not historical Japan nor China, it's not even chanbara, it's its own thing, very much like D&D. This point is very important, so I'll insist. If you're looking for chanbara tropes in L53, you'll be disappointed. Armor is too useful not to wear one, combats are too dangerous etc.

I don't like L5R, but maybe you will. If you insist in playing L5R, I recommend the 1st edition, 3rd edition suffers from rules overbloat, and the metaplot will make you want to gouge out your own eyes. And avoid 2nd edition like the plague, it has the worst version of the system.

I can't comment on Qin, I own a copy but I have yet to read it thoroughly.

Qin works with a relatively simple renown score that is used to determine how far word has spread about your exploits. It creates a distinct taoistic feel with the way its attributes work. They are named after taoist elements (still easily recognizable) and a character has to keep them in balance to make the most of ones magical potential.

Bushido all the way.

We've played a lot of L5R here.  I'll back up all the comments saying to use the first edition system, our GM for the game tried many others but eventually he always came back to the original at the urging of us players.

Personally I really enjoy the setting.  It has a lot of the 'cool stuff' from various ancient oriental cultures all mashed into one without locking you into a historical setting where they couldn't have been in the same place at the same time.  Yes it's deadly, but that keeps everyone from jumping into combat every time you turn around.  Helps push forward a little more roleplay in order to resolve some problems.

Qin we've never played.  Have no opinion to offer up there.

Quote from: The Butcher;387948System lethality is good for a chanbara emulator, though. My vague recollection is that it's a fairly gritty, bloody genre, though I could be mistaken.

Yes and no. In this chanbara is like the sword and sorcery genre; it's forgiving for the main hero, but very lethal for his enemies. In your typical chanbara or sword and sorcery story, the hero regularly kills many times his number, and survives.

This is another reason why I love Usagi Yojimbo. The combat system is very lethal in itself, but there are several Gifts that let your character avoid damage, so your character can have several fights and be unscathed whereas his enemies die like flies.

I would have to repeat what some have said here. If you want a generic fantasy setting inspired by japan (and a bit of china thrown in there, and a lot of western movies/novels allegedly about japan), then L5R is ok. But if you want to play in a fantasy version OF asia (specifically china), then Qin is your game.

And this distinction isn't only important if you want to get all historically sophisticate, its also important in the sense of how the two games will actually play out.  Even if you're playing it as a no-brainer kind of campaign which doesn't particularly care about "historical accuracy", its like the difference between Troy or 300 vs.  Xena:Warrior Princess. The former two, however full of historical inaccuracies, still have a vaguely historical feel which makes the whole thing feel more authentic, while the latter is clearly a bunch of made-up shit with modern sentiments and vague cultural window-dressing.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;388406Even if you're playing it as a no-brainer kind of campaign which doesn't particularly care about "historical accuracy", its like the difference between Troy or 300 vs.  Xena:Warrior Princess. The former two, however full of historical inaccuracies, still have a vaguely historical feel which makes the whole thing feel more authentic, while the latter is clearly a bunch of made-up shit with modern sentiments and vague cultural window-dressing.

Nice distinction. :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;388406while the latter is clearly a bunch of made-up shit with modern sentiments and vague cultural window-dressing.

RPGPundit

Just like almost every fantasy game on the market including every edition of D&D.  You speak like it's a bad thing but then it's what every one does.  Alderac just decided to use an oriental slant with it and was successful with a CCG, RPG and for a while even the Mini game sales were good.

Quote from: dekaranger;388458Just like almost every fantasy game on the market including every edition of D&D.  You speak like it's a bad thing but then it's what every one does.  Alderac just decided to use an oriental slant with it and was successful with a CCG, RPG and for a while even the Mini game sales were good.

Well, yes, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Its only a problem if someone mistakenly believes that L5R is somehow attempting to authentically emulate Japan; in the same sense that someone believes that D&D is authentically trying to emulate "medieval europe".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;388532Well, yes, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Its only a problem if someone mistakenly believes that L5R is somehow attempting to authentically emulate Japan; in the same sense that someone believes that D&D is authentically trying to emulate "medieval europe".

I'll confess to initially falling prey to this misapprehension when I first bought L5R, which left me feeling rather put off for a while.  Eventually I came around to seeing is as an "Asian D&D" and set the system against the background of feudal Japan in much the same way someone might set D&D against the background of medieval England.  Unless one is being a real stickler for accuracy, the setting material for L5R is surprisingly easy to divorce from the mechanics.  Well, as long as you're going to a Japanese pastiche, and not, say, a Chinese one.

!i!

Certainly that's an important element of difference right there. Inasmuch as you can put L5R into an historical context, the basic settings of L5R and Qin are about 2000 years apart, and two completely different nations/society.  Asking about the relative qualities of each is like asking about the relative qualities of an ancient Greek RPG and a late Renaissance France RPG; in other words, if you aren't just lumping everything "asian" into the same boat, you wouldn't even be asking.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ian Absentia;388695Unless one is being a real stickler for accuracy, the setting material for L5R is surprisingly easy to divorce from the mechanics.

The impressions I got from reading the corebook are just the opposite, that is, I felt it is very difficult to divorce the system from the setting. But if you did and had fun, what do I know? More power to you. :)

Quote from: Claudius;389052The impressions I got from reading the corebook are just the opposite, that is, I felt it is very difficult to divorce the system from the setting. But if you did and had fun, what do I know? More power to you. :)

Well, I did have to add the proviso of "as long as you're going to use a Japanese pastiche, and not, say, a Chinese one."  L5R is very Japanese-ish, and not very Chinese-ish at all.  So likening it to out-of-the-box D&D, which generically covers most of fantasy medieval Europe adequately, isn't particularly accurate.

But, to the point, dividing the Japanese archipelago among the L5R clans, then plopping them all into place and running with the mechanics as-is was pretty much a no-brainer.  Doing the same with, say, the Chinese mainland and expecting verisimilitude wouldn't have worked.

!i!