Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM

I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

So if a dude won't bake a gay wedding cake, he should lose his business, right?

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 05:47:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 05:40:10 PM
The most I could say is conditional. If there was bias at WotC in the past in favor of white men, which lead to the current 100% white male management, then I think some sort of corrective action might be appropriate. But that depends on the specific situation.

So you adhere to the "You only can fix past discrimination with present day discrimination" school of thought.

No Jhkim, the ONLY fix is to stop discriminating.

I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

Where do I say anything about society-wide anything?

You can't prove discrimination, and differences in outcome don't prove discrimination (might point to it but by themselves don't prove it)

Without a lawsuit how do you propose wotzi fixes the "discrimination" that hasn't been proven to exist?

So, without a lawsuit what should be the "consequences"?

Why would you come out with "consequences" when we're talking about wotzi potentially discrimionating hiring practices TODAY against white straight males?

Are those white straight males "guilty" of whatever your feverish brain imagines wotzi did in the past?

How is it discriminating in the present against innocent people "fix" any discrimination in the past (granting you it did occur when you can't prove it)?

Quote from: Brad on February 07, 2023, 08:11:05 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM

I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

So if a dude won't bake a gay wedding cake, he should lose his business, right?

The dude was willing to bake the cake, he wasn't willing to write on it what the activists wanted him to. There's a HUGE difference.

  But I already flipped my table and declared WotC dead to me Jan 2023... I can't keep flipping my table and declare WotC dead to me every single month of 2023!  It's redundant and exhausting.  Huh, just like WotC... touché WotC, touché.

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 07, 2023, 08:22:31 PM
But I already flipped my table and declared WotC dead to me Jan 2023... I can't keep flipping my table and declare WotC dead to me every single month of 2023!  It's redundant and exhausting.  Huh, just like WotC... touché WotC, touché.

Flip it back up. You get to express your rage while tidying up from the last rage.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 08:19:55 PM
The dude was willing to bake the cake, he wasn't willing to write on it what the activists wanted him to. There's a HUGE difference.

He deserves to be burned at the stake for daring to have any sort of morals, you bigot.

Quote from: Brad on February 07, 2023, 08:32:49 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 08:19:55 PM
The dude was willing to bake the cake, he wasn't willing to write on it what the activists wanted him to. There's a HUGE difference.

He deserves to be burned at the stake for daring to have any sort of morals, you bigot.

I'll drag myself to the nearest re-education camp ASAP comrade! 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 08:19:55 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 07, 2023, 08:11:05 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM
If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

So if a dude won't bake a gay wedding cake, he should lose his business, right?

The dude was willing to bake the cake, he wasn't willing to write on it what the activists wanted him to. There's a HUGE difference.

This is pretty off-topic, but I agree with GeekyBugle on this principle. There is a huge difference between refusing to make any sort of cake for someone just because they're gay, and refusing to write a particular message.

That's why I support the Ashers Baking Company in their case, where they refused to write "Support Gay Marriage" on a cake. They shouldn't have to write a message they disagree with.

When it's discriminatory is if they're willing to make a cake for non-gay customers, but won't make the exact same cake design for gay customers.

I'd like to critically dissect this statement.

QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?

Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.

First off, what an absurdly irrelevent question. Why not ask about religious diversity, or political diversity, in high-ranking positions? The question wasn't even related to gaming, it was just a softball meant only to open a wedge to virtue signal about "omg, look how open and inclusive we are." The answer (at least in this snippet) is nothing short of expected from these types of lunatics.

QuoteThese are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.

Taken by itself, this part sounds perfectly reasonable. It sounds like WotC hires/promotes based of merit. "You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire," however, sounds like he's admitting they hire based on diversity quotas. I mean, of course they do, but they rarely admit it so openly.

QuoteGuys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.

Ohh, the thinly-veiled racism!
"Lived experience" is OBVIOUSLY tied to "looks" (i.e., skin color), right? Because their aren't poor white folk living in economically depressed areas without easy access to the opportunities available to them. I think the Welfare statistics put the lie to that.

QuoteAnd I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

Two points here.
1) There's always been girls and people of other ethnicities interested in gaming. Not a lot, but they were there. Some people just aren't interested in certain things, AND THAT'S OKAY. When I was in automotive shop in school, there was one girl in my class. Meanwhile the hairdressing shop had zero boys. Hmmm... I wonder why that was...?

This idea that people of particular demographics need to be injected into hobbies, and that other people need to "leave" or be forcably ejected is just disgusting. It's one step short of classism: "you belong here, because I said so."

2) He's conflating DnD with the hobby in general. It's probably true that "cis, white men" are leaving DnD, but they aren't leaving the hobby. Fucktards like Kyle live in a bubble where they think only the things they see is the entire world. He's only looking at it through a lens of race & gender (white men are leaving; other demographics are going up)... I'd be interested to see the split along political /cultural lines, which I suspect paints a much clearer picture.

QuoteAnd we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.

Blah blah, bullshit, blah blah blah.

QuoteI always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach.

Oh, how interesting! So if there are people "smarter" than you, and you promote based on merit like you claim, then maybe step down and let those smarter people take over. Oh, wait... he doesn't actually believe that. It's just false humility because he thinks these people he hires are idiots. It's just soft-bigotry.

QuoteSo as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.

Coming Soon: Dungeons & Dragons: Oops! All Orcs edition.

Greetings!

The MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE WHITE MEN. If Brink doesn't like that fact, or anyone else, too bad. SUCK IT.

I'm so sick of these racist fuckers. Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.

Despite the large increase in popularity for attracting women and minority gamers--the majority are still WHITE MEN. At every game convention I have been to, and at my local game store, on the various game nights, the majority are still WHITE MEN.

GOOD! These game company executives need to be worried about creating good games, writing good books--and not worried about the sex or ethnicity of who gamers are. There are various games and interests that appeal to a majority of "X"--whether that is basketball, or quilting. Who cares? Noone cares that many such interests have few white men attending them or participating. Gaming is no different. It is what it is. Let the people interested in the hobby play, and don't worry about whether they are women or men, or what colour their skin is.

These morons at WOTC are disgusting. Oh, and yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps, I had LOTS of gamers participate. Many were minorities, too. Black, Asian, Hispanic. Strange thing though--none of them ever said we need to have fewer white guys playing, and get more minority gamers! None of them EVER aid anything like that. They were all glad to have anyone join up and play D&D. Every Marine was welcoming to others wanting to play, regardless of their race.

I guess all of the different Marines I gamed with--from different races, all over the fucking country, from New York, Chicago, Miami, Texas, Colorado, to Alaska, Hawaii, and California, and everywhere in between, didn't get the same memo that thisclownat WOTC has gotten.

I also had some Marines from Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Philippines! Imagine that? They game too! They all liked D&D. And none of them, or any of the white Marine gamers, were racist against anyone. Fuck this clown at WOTC. This moron is so insulting. Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 11:27:21 PM
Greetings!

The MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE WHITE MEN. If Brink doesn't like that fact, or anyone else, too bad. SUCK IT.

I'm so sick of these racist fuckers. Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.

Despite the large increase in popularity for attracting women and minority gamers--the majority are still WHITE MEN. At every game convention I have been to, and at my local game store, on the various game nights, the majority are still WHITE MEN.

GOOD! These game company executives need to be worried about creating good games, writing good books--and not worried about the sex or ethnicity of who gamers are. There are various games and interests that appeal to a majority of "X"--whether that is basketball, or quilting. Who cares? Noone cares that many such interests have few white men attending them or participating. Gaming is no different. It is what it is. Let the people interested in the hobby play, and don't worry about whether they are women or men, or what colour their skin is.

These morons at WOTC are disgusting. Oh, and yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps, I had LOTS of gamers participate. Many were minorities, too. Black, Asian, Hispanic. Strange thing though--none of them ever said we need to have fewer white guys playing, and get more minority gamers! None of them EVER aid anything like that. They were all glad to have anyone join up and play D&D. Every Marine was welcoming to others wanting to play, regardless of their race.

I guess all of the different Marines I gamed with--from different races, all over the fucking country, from New York, Chicago, Miami, Texas, Colorado, to Alaska, Hawaii, and California, and everywhere in between, didn't get the same memo that thisclownat WOTC has gotten.

I also had some Marines from Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Philippines! Imagine that? They game too! They all liked D&D. And none of them, or any of the white Marine gamers, were racist against anyone. Fuck this clown at WOTC. This moron is so insulting. Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well put hermano but you forget one very important thing:

In the Marine corps there's no "White" or "Black" there is only two colors, light and dark green.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 11:35:27 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 11:27:21 PM
Greetings!

The MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE WHITE MEN. If Brink doesn't like that fact, or anyone else, too bad. SUCK IT.

I'm so sick of these racist fuckers. Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.

Despite the large increase in popularity for attracting women and minority gamers--the majority are still WHITE MEN. At every game convention I have been to, and at my local game store, on the various game nights, the majority are still WHITE MEN.

GOOD! These game company executives need to be worried about creating good games, writing good books--and not worried about the sex or ethnicity of who gamers are. There are various games and interests that appeal to a majority of "X"--whether that is basketball, or quilting. Who cares? Noone cares that many such interests have few white men attending them or participating. Gaming is no different. It is what it is. Let the people interested in the hobby play, and don't worry about whether they are women or men, or what colour their skin is.

These morons at WOTC are disgusting. Oh, and yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps, I had LOTS of gamers participate. Many were minorities, too. Black, Asian, Hispanic. Strange thing though--none of them ever said we need to have fewer white guys playing, and get more minority gamers! None of them EVER aid anything like that. They were all glad to have anyone join up and play D&D. Every Marine was welcoming to others wanting to play, regardless of their race.

I guess all of the different Marines I gamed with--from different races, all over the fucking country, from New York, Chicago, Miami, Texas, Colorado, to Alaska, Hawaii, and California, and everywhere in between, didn't get the same memo that thisclownat WOTC has gotten.

I also had some Marines from Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Philippines! Imagine that? They game too! They all liked D&D. And none of them, or any of the white Marine gamers, were racist against anyone. Fuck this clown at WOTC. This moron is so insulting. Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well put hermano but you forget one very important thing:

In the Marine corps there's no "White" or "Black" there is only two colors, light and dark green.

And regardless of which shade of green, they're all sea-going bellhops... 

Now that *that's* out of the way...

I think that we're starting to see the tail end of the DEI nonsense in corporate settings because of the negative impact to the bottom line. It just happens to be that a consumer game company is the type of business that won't see the negative impact as quickly as, say, Disney or Netflix where you can see it in the form of cancelled subs and fewer amusement park visits.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 11:35:27 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 11:27:21 PM
Greetings!

The MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE WHITE MEN. If Brink doesn't like that fact, or anyone else, too bad. SUCK IT.

I'm so sick of these racist fuckers. Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.

Despite the large increase in popularity for attracting women and minority gamers--the majority are still WHITE MEN. At every game convention I have been to, and at my local game store, on the various game nights, the majority are still WHITE MEN.

GOOD! These game company executives need to be worried about creating good games, writing good books--and not worried about the sex or ethnicity of who gamers are. There are various games and interests that appeal to a majority of "X"--whether that is basketball, or quilting. Who cares? Noone cares that many such interests have few white men attending them or participating. Gaming is no different. It is what it is. Let the people interested in the hobby play, and don't worry about whether they are women or men, or what colour their skin is.

These morons at WOTC are disgusting. Oh, and yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps, I had LOTS of gamers participate. Many were minorities, too. Black, Asian, Hispanic. Strange thing though--none of them ever said we need to have fewer white guys playing, and get more minority gamers! None of them EVER aid anything like that. They were all glad to have anyone join up and play D&D. Every Marine was welcoming to others wanting to play, regardless of their race.

I guess all of the different Marines I gamed with--from different races, all over the fucking country, from New York, Chicago, Miami, Texas, Colorado, to Alaska, Hawaii, and California, and everywhere in between, didn't get the same memo that thisclownat WOTC has gotten.

I also had some Marines from Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Philippines! Imagine that? They game too! They all liked D&D. And none of them, or any of the white Marine gamers, were racist against anyone. Fuck this clown at WOTC. This moron is so insulting. Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well put hermano but you forget one very important thing:

In the Marine corps there's no "White" or "Black" there is only two colors, light and dark green.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Yes, Hermano! That's right! There is only Light Green and Dark Green!

We labeled everyone as that, too. You know, that reminds me of an episode. In my Infantry Company, our Company 1st Sergeant was a very tall, lanky Dark Green Marine. (Company 1st Sergeants are like, next to being *God*. They answer only to the Company Commander, and Battalion higher ups). Company 1st Sergeant called us out to a formation. He said he had gotten word that some in the company were starting to hang out in racial cliques. He yelled at us, "Bullshit!" All you motherfuckers in this goodamn infantry unit just better well be hanging out together. There are no Marines of different races. There is only ONE motherfucking colour--MARINE GREEN. Y'all are either Light Green, or Dark Green. Y'all need to always be hanging out together. Like ferocious goddamn wolfpacks. TOGETHER, GOT IT? Let me fucking hear about any racial cliques going on any further, and I don't give a fuck who you are, you will answer to ME. And gentlemen, I wear a mighty big boot, and I will personally put my boot so far up your ass you will be speakig Chinese. All y'all best put a stop to this kind of activity and attitude, RIGHT NOW. And make no mistake. I get around. I will be going through the barracks, the gym, the chow hall, every goddamn place, watching and listening. I will know everything about what the fuck is going on with my Marines. I damn well better see all my Marines hanging out together. I'll have none of that exclusionary bullshit. Do I make myself clear?

Yes First Sergeant!--we all replied, in unison. We knew he was pissed. He was dead fucking serious. At that time, he had been a veteran for like, 20 years I wanna say. Decorations like crazy. Yeah, we took whatever the fuck the 1st Sergeant said as important. Everybody paid attention to whatever his priorities were. Even the Platoon Commanders, and the Company Commander would often reference, "As when the 1st Sergeant told you "X"" and so on. Top Sergeant, the backbone of training, discipline, and fucking OOH RAH morale and motivaion. If you got on his bad side, you were fucked. But we all knew he went to bat for us in anything, like a stern and rightoeus father that would die to protect us, as well as beat our ass when we needed it. So, that certainly set the tone on Light Green and Dark Green Marines!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: 3catcircus on February 08, 2023, 12:46:41 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 11:35:27 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 11:27:21 PM
Greetings!

The MAJORITY OF GAMERS ARE WHITE MEN. If Brink doesn't like that fact, or anyone else, too bad. SUCK IT.

I'm so sick of these racist fuckers. Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.

Despite the large increase in popularity for attracting women and minority gamers--the majority are still WHITE MEN. At every game convention I have been to, and at my local game store, on the various game nights, the majority are still WHITE MEN.

GOOD! These game company executives need to be worried about creating good games, writing good books--and not worried about the sex or ethnicity of who gamers are. There are various games and interests that appeal to a majority of "X"--whether that is basketball, or quilting. Who cares? Noone cares that many such interests have few white men attending them or participating. Gaming is no different. It is what it is. Let the people interested in the hobby play, and don't worry about whether they are women or men, or what colour their skin is.

These morons at WOTC are disgusting. Oh, and yeah, when I was in the Marine Corps, I had LOTS of gamers participate. Many were minorities, too. Black, Asian, Hispanic. Strange thing though--none of them ever said we need to have fewer white guys playing, and get more minority gamers! None of them EVER aid anything like that. They were all glad to have anyone join up and play D&D. Every Marine was welcoming to others wanting to play, regardless of their race.

I guess all of the different Marines I gamed with--from different races, all over the fucking country, from New York, Chicago, Miami, Texas, Colorado, to Alaska, Hawaii, and California, and everywhere in between, didn't get the same memo that thisclownat WOTC has gotten.

I also had some Marines from Mexico, Puerto Rico and the Philippines! Imagine that? They game too! They all liked D&D. And none of them, or any of the white Marine gamers, were racist against anyone. Fuck this clown at WOTC. This moron is so insulting. Geesus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well put hermano but you forget one very important thing:

In the Marine corps there's no "White" or "Black" there is only two colors, light and dark green.

And regardless of which shade of green, they're all sea-going bellhops... 

Now that *that's* out of the way...

I think that we're starting to see the tail end of the DEI nonsense in corporate settings because of the negative impact to the bottom line. It just happens to be that a consumer game company is the type of business that won't see the negative impact as quickly as, say, Disney or Netflix where you can see it in the form of cancelled subs and fewer amusement park visits.

Greetings!

Hey 3catcircus! *Laughing* Yeah, yeah. Sea going Bellhops! We look so stylish in our pretty uniforms!

As for WOTC, they just keep stepping in shit, don't they? It is so much now, so mind-numbingly offensive, that it is laughable now. Way to torpedo the fucking brand that just six months ago was at the absolute peak of success and popularity. Mind numbingly pathetic and disgusting, too though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Everyone is able to play the game.  The only gatekeeping, is caused by the execs at WOTC; who keep opening their mouths, and spewing out anti-white racist stupidity.  What a dumpster fire, 2023 is turning out to be for WOTC!!!

I'm not upset.  This is glorious stupidity, by a company trying to offend their customers and self destruct.  You couldn't make this stuff up, if you tried.