Quote from: JackFS4 on February 07, 2023, 03:11:40 PMI know that it's trendy now to dunk on whites, but you'd think someone trying to sell a product wouldn't go out of their way to offend their customer base.

The cultural zeitgeist is that if you're a white guy, you just gotta suck it up.
I think the reason he is saying this sort of stuff is for the self-validation brownies and ESG points.

"Oh man, im working on something SOOO diverse! For realz! Give me money and praise!"

Well now Clownfish is covering this thread..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H42EYmHCmwU

Quote from: Osman Gazi on February 07, 2023, 09:32:54 AM
If "white guys like me can't leave fast enough", why didn't he immediately announce his resignation?

Exactly - why doesn't he lead by example and fuck off. As usual it is 'rules for you but not for me' in typical leftist fashion.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 07, 2023, 02:48:14 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 07, 2023, 05:57:46 AM
  I would also stop using the word racism. It has ZERO meaning now it seems a word mostly used by my enemies to just mean white people need to die.

   They shifted the definition sometime in the 90s from "animus based on someone's skin color or ethnic background" to "being in a (putatively) socially privileged position and not aligned with progressive Newthink", but are still relying on the opprobrium attached to the older definition.

Yeah, I avoid using the term "racist" because there is no agreement on what it means. For example, I had a number of discussions with user Alathon here on this forum. He's openly ethno-nationalist, and claims that "separate but equal" single-ethnic societies are better for all races. He stated that the United States should be white for white people, while China should be Chinese for Chinese people, etc. Is that racist? He didn't express any hatred or attack me simply for my race, so if we define racism solely based on animus, then maybe he shouldn't be considered racist.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 02:33:57 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 11:38:14 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 01:04:15 AM
Then the industry suddenly attracts men that hate it, but want in anyway. So a shitheel exec goes on a tear about how the industry will be better once the people who always enjoyed and supported it make way for the fly-by-night male activists who want to burn it to the ground.

I don't think your revised comparison works as a parallel for D&D. Women and non-white people have always been involved in D&D, and have been playing and creating for it for decades because they enjoy it as a game.

So why is there a need for racistg and sexist discriminaing hiring practices to have more "diversity"?

I don't know WotC's hiring practices, past or present, and never made any claims about it. It might have been discriminatory in the past. It might be discriminatory now. I don't know.

Kyle Brinks makes some statements in the interview, but I don't trust or endorse anything he says.

The most I could say is conditional. If there was bias at WotC in the past in favor of white men, which lead to the current 100% white male management, then I think some sort of corrective action might be appropriate. But that depends on the specific situation.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 05:40:10 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 07, 2023, 02:48:14 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 07, 2023, 05:57:46 AM
  I would also stop using the word racism. It has ZERO meaning now it seems a word mostly used by my enemies to just mean white people need to die.

   They shifted the definition sometime in the 90s from "animus based on someone's skin color or ethnic background" to "being in a (putatively) socially privileged position and not aligned with progressive Newthink", but are still relying on the opprobrium attached to the older definition.

Yeah, I avoid using the term "racist" because there is no agreement on what it means. For example, I had a number of discussions with user Alathon here on this forum. He's openly ethno-nationalist, and claims that "separate but equal" single-ethnic societies are better for all races. He stated that the United States should be white for white people, while China should be Chinese for Chinese people, etc. Is that racist? He didn't express any hatred or attack me simply for my race, so if we define racism solely based on animus, then maybe he shouldn't be considered racist.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 02:33:57 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 11:38:14 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 01:04:15 AM
Then the industry suddenly attracts men that hate it, but want in anyway. So a shitheel exec goes on a tear about how the industry will be better once the people who always enjoyed and supported it make way for the fly-by-night male activists who want to burn it to the ground.

I don't think your revised comparison works as a parallel for D&D. Women and non-white people have always been involved in D&D, and have been playing and creating for it for decades because they enjoy it as a game.

So why is there a need for racistg and sexist discriminaing hiring practices to have more "diversity"?

I don't know WotC's hiring practices, past or present, and never made any claims about it. It might have been discriminatory in the past. It might be discriminatory now. I don't know.

Kyle Brinks makes some statements in the interview, but I don't trust or endorse anything he says.

The most I could say is conditional. If there was bias at WotC in the past in favor of white men, which lead to the current 100% white male management, then I think some sort of corrective action might be appropriate. But that depends on the specific situation.

So you adhere to the "You only can fix past discrimination with present day discrimination" school of thought.

No Jhkim, the ONLY fix is to stop discriminating.

Now, since you strike me (I might be wrong) as the type to buy the social constructivist shit let me point out that the experiment has been done, the more you flatten the societal forces the more the differences in career choices accentuate.

Unless of course you think India is more igualitarian than the nordic countries like sweden. If you do believe that I have a bridge in Shit Fransycko for sale dirt cheap.

There was no bias in the past. Companies chase after the costumers. Initially it was mostly white nerds that were willing to risk the social stigma of wargaming or role playing so companies marketed to them. Then when the stigma was almost entirely gone johnny come lately complain that they were ignored and things must be adjusted to right wrongs.

If you want more people of color and women and gays to play that is fine. Do what it takes to draw in those audiences. Certainly something must attract them other than attacking the white male audience that has been with the game for decades. Do a poll, figure out what might draw them in, chase the customers.

(Looks at cratering sales and mass migration of the masses to other rpg systems)
"I know!  I'll say something stupid!  That'll get 'em back!"

-good Christ, this whole fiasco is going to wind up in a college business textbook in a few years methinks.

I agree with him.  Guys like him should exit this hobby as fast as possible.  The less douchebags around, the better.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 05:47:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 05:40:10 PM
The most I could say is conditional. If there was bias at WotC in the past in favor of white men, which lead to the current 100% white male management, then I think some sort of corrective action might be appropriate. But that depends on the specific situation.

So you adhere to the "You only can fix past discrimination with present day discrimination" school of thought.

No Jhkim, the ONLY fix is to stop discriminating.

I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

Greetings!

Clownfish is awesome. Kneon made some outstanding commentary. With WOTC, this is all a reflection and consequence of them embracing Woke politics. As an RPG company, if they were truly committed to the gaming hobby, their customers, and demonstrating genuine leadership, everyone should be welcomed as customers and gamers. WOTC shouldn't be talking about politics, sex, or race. AT ALL. WOTC and its executives should be talking about campaigns, gaming, adventure modules, DM's, and an assortment of gaming-related topics.

They can't do that, however. Woke ideology an Woke activists--being rooted in Marxism--are constantly embracing and agitating for conflict and "revolution". Criticize, complain, protest, march--this is what their daily lives revolve around. ACTIVISM. This is what the Woke Marxists are involved with, and activism is what consumes their lives.

Understanding that dynamic, it is easy then to see how that kind of ideological corruption just consumes companies and absolutely ruins them. It really does make them incapable of creating anything--because everything must serve the Narrative, the mission. Everything must be involved, somehow, in activism, in spreading and promoting the narrative.

This is why WOTC has failed, and will continue to fail spectacularly, and decline. Certainly as a genuine RPG company.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 07:08:42 PM
Greetings!

Clownfish is awesome. Kneon made some outstanding commentary. With WOTC, this is all a reflection and consequence of them embracing Woke politics. As an RPG company, if they were truly committed to the gaming hobby, their customers, and demonstrating genuine leadership, everyone should be welcomed as customers and gamers. WOTC shouldn't be talking about politics, sex, or race. AT ALL. WOTC and its executives should be talking about campaigns, gaming, adventure modules, DM's, and an assortment of gaming-related topics.

They can't do that, however. Woke ideology an Woke activists--being rooted in Marxism--are constantly embracing and agitating for conflict and "revolution". Criticize, complain, protest, march--this is what their daily lives revolve around. ACTIVISM. This is what the Woke Marxists are involved with, and activism is what consumes their lives.

Understanding that dynamic, it is easy then to see how that kind of ideological corruption just consumes companies and absolutely ruins them. It really does make them incapable of creating anything--because everything must serve the Narrative, the mission. Everything must be involved, somehow, in activism, in spreading and promoting the narrative.

This is why WOTC has failed, and will continue to fail spectacularly, and decline. Certainly as a genuine RPG company.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

WOTC happily caved to woke activists to fire Mearls and WotC immediately went down hill.  WOTC believed that if they put up the BLM and LGBTABC123 flag that the left would quit hurting and the right never would.  Well, the right has money and are spending money elsewhere and you bet your bippy conservatives chimed in and made the OGL controversy 10X's worse than it would have been.  And you know Brink making classic leftwing racist comments directed towards white is getting bosted by conservatives sick of D&D spewing this crap.  The left turned D&D against its customer base, ok, the customer base leaves and what is left burns D&D down by making D&D play by its own rules.  It took the left about 5 years of concerted effort to turn public D&D woke.  Lets see how many years of concerted rebellion against D&D when it puts out woke and racist talking points does to D&D's bottom line.

Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 07:08:42 PM
Greetings!

Clownfish is awesome. Kneon made some outstanding commentary. With WOTC, this is all a reflection and consequence of them embracing Woke politics. As an RPG company, if they were truly committed to the gaming hobby, their customers, and demonstrating genuine leadership, everyone should be welcomed as customers and gamers. WOTC shouldn't be talking about politics, sex, or race. AT ALL. WOTC and its executives should be talking about campaigns, gaming, adventure modules, DM's, and an assortment of gaming-related topics.

They can't do that, however. Woke ideology an Woke activists--being rooted in Marxism--are constantly embracing and agitating for conflict and "revolution". Criticize, complain, protest, march--this is what their daily lives revolve around. ACTIVISM. This is what the Woke Marxists are involved with, and activism is what consumes their lives.

Understanding that dynamic, it is easy then to see how that kind of ideological corruption just consumes companies and absolutely ruins them. It really does make them incapable of creating anything--because everything must serve the Narrative, the mission. Everything must be involved, somehow, in activism, in spreading and promoting the narrative.

This is why WOTC has failed, and will continue to fail spectacularly, and decline. Certainly as a genuine RPG company.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

WOTC happily caved to woke activists to fire Mearls and WotC immediately went down hill.  WOTC believed that if they put up the BLM and LGBTABC123 don't hurt me flag that the left would quit hurting them and the right never would.  Well, the right has money and are spending money elsewhere and you bet your bippy conservatives chimed in and made the OGL controversy 10X's worse than it would have been.  And you know Brink making classic leftwing racist comments directed towards white is getting boosted by conservatives sick of D&D spewing this crap.  The left turned D&D against its customer base, ok, the customer base leaves and what is left burns D&D down by making D&D play by its own rules.  It took the left about 5 years of concerted effort to turn public D&D woke.  Lets see how many years of concerted rebellion against D&D when it puts out woke and racist talking points does to D&D's bottom line.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 05:47:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 05:40:10 PM
The most I could say is conditional. If there was bias at WotC in the past in favor of white men, which lead to the current 100% white male management, then I think some sort of corrective action might be appropriate. But that depends on the specific situation.

So you adhere to the "You only can fix past discrimination with present day discrimination" school of thought.

No Jhkim, the ONLY fix is to stop discriminating.

I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.

Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.

Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.

You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.

Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.

For example, men way overrepresented in tech? Well men and women are interchangeable, so men must be keeping women out! All the money and effort you threw at getting women in to tech, and it's barely moved the needle?  Let's start artificially blocking men and only accepting women, even if the men have better scores or skills. For the sacred tenet of equity must be honored!

"Diversity" is just codeword for Anti-Whiteness, just like "Equity" is codeword for communism and "Inclusion" is just codeword for "Kick out Whites".

But is any of this really a surprise? The left believes they can win a race war.

It's why crime news reports have been slanted only one way for years now, regardless of how many Whites are murdered simply out of racial hate. It's why open borders is the defacto policy of Western nations controlled by leftists. This isn't an accident and the Brink Bitch is just saying the quiet part out loud, which is the new normal. In the left's delusion, their SJW Utopia can only be achieved after Whites - especially White men - are broken.

As I've posted many times, it's high time for a National Divorce.

One of the key aspects of pre-secession is the development of a Parallel Economy. AKA, we have businesses on our side who we support instead of the leftist mainstream.

The OGL led to three Parallel Economies in the D&D-adjacent RPG world as exemplified by Pathfinder, the OSR and the 5e 3PPs - each with their own audiences. As the OGL 1.2 debacle appears to be settled with the 5.1 SRD becoming part of Creative Commons, those Parallel Economies will continue onward increasingly separate from WotC as they launch 6e.

I personally will not support WotC in the future, as they had already lost me years ago.

And my gaming will only benefit.

Quote from: Skullking on February 07, 2023, 04:45:20 PM

Quote from: Osman Gazi on February 07, 2023, 09:32:54 AM
If "white guys like me can't leave fast enough", why didn't he immediately announce his resignation?

Exactly - why doesn't he lead by example and fuck off. As usual it is 'rules for you but not for me' in typical leftist fashion.

Because, and it should be blindingly obvious by now, progressives have always believed that minorities are incapable of governing themselves, incapable of looking after themselves, and need to be led into the promised land by white liberals.