The ultimate conclusion for that line of thought is that Kyle should commit suicide, as should every white guy that agrees with him.  When that's the logical outcome of your "thought", you are a poster child for "useful idiot". 

So while I agree with oggsmash as far as it goes, I'd say in this particular case the enemy is sitting behind the cannon fodder.  Doesn't change the suggested course of action, though.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
Here's what I got of his actual words, for what it's worth.

Quote
Kyle Brink:
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.

And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

I take it Kyle Brink has never been to a TTRPG convention.   

Kyle is a self-loathing racist? Color me shocked.

jhkim is being disingenuous? Color me shocked.

Why do I not *feel* shocked? Oh yeah... because reality is.

Quote from: tenbones on February 07, 2023, 10:41:34 AM
Kyle is a self-loathing racist? Color me shocked.

jhkim is being disingenuous? Color me shocked.

Why do I not *feel* shocked? Oh yeah... because reality is.

He should be made to apologize publicly.  If enough complaints were made about that comment, he'd have to.  And then you continue personal attacks on him till he's forced to resign.  How do you think the left rousted Matt Mearls and gave us super woke D&D vs woke light D&D?

You can't squeeze water out of rocks.

But if you're advocating that you just want to squeeze rocks to see if you can get some water out of it... well I think there are some unspoken desires at play here. LOL

Waiting to see if white males are over represented in 6e art.
That was the stated reason for people of color being kept out of RPGs after all.

As I see it, there is a division with 100% white male bosses -- then one of the bosses does an interview, and because of his phrasing in a two second bit, others conclude that white males are an oppressed class within the division.

I'd at least consider the possibility that Kyle is not telling the truth. That he is fine with his boss position and power, and he is going overboard in saying what he thinks the interviewer wants to hear. I don't know Kyle as a person, but I have very low trust in Hasbro/WotC in general.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 01:04:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:40:37 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:19:58 AM
Lets make an experiment, whenever he talks about white people/men substitute it for jews/women, done? If it makes you recoil at the racism the statement was racist/sexist from the start.

So in this experiment, there's a company where 100% of the top positions of power are all filled by women. (Something in child care or cute stuffed animals, maybe?) And the customer base was falsely assumed to be all female in the past, but has more and more men in the present.

So a woman executive says that she welcomes men into the company, and that people like her can't get out of the way fast enough.

It seems a little farfetched, but I think I could picture it.

To be comparable it would need to be a company that has historically been full of women who were really good at the job, were attracted to the job because they love the industry, and spaces were always open to men, but men just weren't interested.

Then the industry suddenly attracts men that hate it, but want in anyway. So a shitheel exec goes on a tear about how the industry will be better once the people who always enjoyed and supported it make way for the fly-by-night male activists who want to burn it to the ground.

There, now your disingenuous comparison works better.

EDIT: And I just noticed how your example casually sidesteps the racism layered on the sexism.

I'm fine with the underlined part. However, I completely disagree that the women playing D&D hate it but want to get in just to burn it to the ground -- or the same for non-white D&D players. White men were the core demographic in the early days, but there have been other demographics involved since long before the recent woke controversy.

So I don't think your revised comparison works as a parallel for D&D. Women and non-white people have always been involved in D&D, and have been playing and creating for it for decades because they enjoy it as a game.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 11:38:14 AM
As I see it, there is a division with 100% white male bosses -- then one of the bosses does an interview, and because of his phrasing in a two second bit, others conclude that white males are an oppressed class within the division.

I'd at least consider the possibility that Kyle is not telling the truth. That he is fine with his boss position and power, and he is going overboard in saying what he thinks the interviewer wants to hear. I don't know Kyle as a person, but I have very low trust in Hasbro/WotC in general.

jhkim, nobody believes he believes it. That's not the point.

  The defense appears to be that Brink is talking about the creative direction or the face of the game ... but in this hobby, the boundaries between those roles and 'standard' users/consumers have always been rather porous. Or is this another way to justify restricting the game to only WotC-created, properly diverse content?

   

Credit where it is due: Thanks to Jhkim for the direct quote.

At the least the OP should have thrown in a timestamp. IMHO...

Quote from: Mr. Brink: The whitest guy in the room on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
...
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

Actually, yes. Yes 'guys like you' are still very much the majority in the hobby.

Even out here in the SF bay area; go to any con, and guess what? The majority are still white dudes.

Granted, out here in the bay area they are mostly woke as fuck, but to their utter horror; they're still white.

Quote from: Mr. Brink: The whitest guy in the room on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
...there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

This guy is a Rhetorical Goldmine...

Brink/Wotzi will deserve every ounce of pounding that they will get for this quote.

It's just too good not to hammer Wotzi with.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 07, 2023, 12:39:56 PM
Credit where it is due: Thanks to Jhkim for the direct quote.

At the least the OP should have thrown in a timestamp. IMHO...

Quote from: Mr. Brink: The whitest guy in the room on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
...
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

When you click the link its set to start right at the moment the quote begins,.
Actually, yes. Yes 'guys like you' are still very much the majority in the hobby.

Even out here in the SF bay area; go to any con, and guess what? The majority are still white dudes.

Granted, out here in the bay area they are mostly woke as fuck, but to their utter horror; they're still white.

Quote from: Mr. Brink: The whitest guy in the room on February 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
...there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

This guy is a Rhetorical Goldmine...

Brink/Wotzi will deserve every ounce of pounding that they will get for this quote.

It's just too good not to hammer Wotzi with.

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 11:38:14 AM
As I see it, there is a division with 100% white male bosses -- then one of the bosses does an interview, and because of his phrasing in a two second bit, others conclude that white males are an oppressed class within the division.

I'd at least consider the possibility that Kyle is not telling the truth. That he is fine with his boss position and power, and he is going overboard in saying what he thinks the interviewer wants to hear. I don't know Kyle as a person, but I have very low trust in Hasbro/WotC in general.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 01:04:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 12:40:37 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 12:19:58 AM
Lets make an experiment, whenever he talks about white people/men substitute it for jews/women, done? If it makes you recoil at the racism the statement was racist/sexist from the start.

So in this experiment, there's a company where 100% of the top positions of power are all filled by women. (Something in child care or cute stuffed animals, maybe?) And the customer base was falsely assumed to be all female in the past, but has more and more men in the present.

So a woman executive says that she welcomes men into the company, and that people like her can't get out of the way fast enough.

It seems a little farfetched, but I think I could picture it.

To be comparable it would need to be a company that has historically been full of women who were really good at the job, were attracted to the job because they love the industry, and spaces were always open to men, but men just weren't interested.

Then the industry suddenly attracts men that hate it, but want in anyway. So a shitheel exec goes on a tear about how the industry will be better once the people who always enjoyed and supported it make way for the fly-by-night male activists who want to burn it to the ground.

There, now your disingenuous comparison works better.

EDIT: And I just noticed how your example casually sidesteps the racism layered on the sexism.

I'm fine with the underlined part. However, I completely disagree that the women playing D&D hate it but want to get in just to burn it to the ground -- or the same for non-white D&D players. White men were the core demographic in the early days, but there have been other demographics involved since long before the recent woke controversy.

So I don't think your revised comparison works as a parallel for D&D. Women and non-white people have always been involved in D&D, and have been playing and creating for it for decades because they enjoy it as a game.

So why is there a need for racistg and sexist discriminaing hiring practices to have more "diversity"?

Mind you, IMHO there's NEVER a need for discrimination, but then again I'm not a progressive, you are the one on the side that has to deffend racism, sexism, discrimination and segregation (and anti miscegentaion too).

Quote from: oggsmash on February 07, 2023, 05:57:46 AM
  I would also stop using the word racism. It has ZERO meaning now it seems a word mostly used by my enemies to just mean white people need to die.

   They shifted the definition sometime in the 90s from "animus based on someone's skin color or ethnic background" to "being in a (putatively) socially privileged position and not aligned with progressive Newthink", but are still relying on the opprobrium attached to the older definition.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 07, 2023, 02:48:14 PM
   They shifted the definition sometime in the 90s from

Not quite.  Dictionaries still have a definition that is race-blind, though it has moved quite substantially from something about animus based on race to something meaningless like " The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability", mostly so that it can apply to all the potential enemies who might point to a graph or a statistic gathered impartially.  But the dictionary definition doesn't mean, for instance "prejudice plus power".

That second shifting definition isn't meant to accomplish "prejudice plus power", or anything like that- it's solely meant to mean "racism is something white people do to non-whites, and we're leaving the option open to call someone of Asian descent racist maybe if they are being racist to certain non-whites".  Whatever definition they give you is 100% absolute garbage, and the test is to simply find an exception and see if anyone will decry it as racist.  For instance, if a black woman is the CEO and shits all over some white worker based on race, you will see that suddenly, oh no, not that kind of power, we mean, uh, institutional power.  So then if you point to white farmers having their farms taken in Nigeria, uh no sweety, not that institution.  The definition is meaningless- it's just a word used to attack white people.

There's probably still some merit to using the term "racist" by a definition as still understood by most people (animus against a person based on their race), but it's only useful in explaining things to normal people.  A better term is "anti-white" because it cannot be misunderstood by anyone.  If someone points out that saying that whites can't get out of leadership positions fast enough, as this guy has probably stated, pointing out that this is racist will get the point across to someone who has a normal understanding of race politics and discussion, but provides an entire bonus thread by some pinhead anti-white zealot where they have a descending tree of arguments based on the status of the day.

Meanwhile, if you just call it anti-white, everyone understands what you mean, and it is actually more accurate- because it doesn't matter if a non-white country bans being white, that's somehow not going to count as racism, and whatever metric they claim to be in favor of today will shift to what it has to be tomorrow to continue aiming the word "racist" exclusively at white people, and never at someone looking to oppress a white person.

I'm not sure Mr Brink's been to a convention or an FLGS recently or maybe I only go to the wrong ones, but the "face of the hobby" as I've seen it is still white dudes.  Those are the folks at the conventions and the ones running the FLGSes.  I know that it's trendy now to dunk on whites, but you'd think someone trying to sell a product wouldn't go out of their way to offend their customer base.  Maybe with the OGL dust up the powers that be at WoTC are trying to do a reset and just dump all the OSR gamers to cleanse the culture of their VTT space.


I never cared for 5e so I'm in the set of old white guys who've left already.