Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PMBTW John, Diversity does not mean you. A half Chinese female writer friend of mine sometimes gets a bit peeved that she and people like her do all the actual writing work while 'properly Diverse' POCs are put front & centre and given all the credit. Not that the Properly Diverse get actual power or (much) money, they are there to POC-wash the Corporate image.

Is she not fully woke? In which case she's only half-White.

If she were woke, she'd be half-Chinese.

In a world where white guys can call black guys White Supremacists, this all makes sense.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 02:16:05 PM
Is she not fully woke? In which case she's only half-White.

If she were woke, she'd be half-Chinese.

She gets along with everyone, she's very zen, but is definitely on the left-liberal side in her own views.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 02:37:20 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 02:16:05 PM
Is she not fully woke? In which case she's only half-White.

If she were woke, she'd be half-Chinese.

She gets along with everyone, she's very zen, but is definitely on the left-liberal side in her own views.

"So she's a Nazi." - A Wokist.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PM
...
BTW John, Diversity does not mean you. A half Chinese female writer friend of mine sometimes gets a bit peeved that she and people like her do all the actual writing work while 'properly Diverse' POCs are put front & centre and given all the credit. Not that the Properly Diverse get actual power or (much) money, they are there to POC-wash the Corporate image.

^This^

As far as the Properly Diverse are concerned, they are just putting the 'asian' in caucasian.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PM
I think WoTC can definitely be both 'the height of wokeness', and a bunch of exploitative scumbags.

It's funny how often these two things go hand in hand.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PM
I noticed Brink was trying to spin diversity hire *writers* - who are paid peanuts - as somehow indicative that WoTC was just about to replace all the cisgender straight white men like him in well paid senior positions with Diversity. Yeah right.

Wotzi should pay so that they actually attract the creatives that would otherwise go into the videogame industry.

They can afford to pay very well, but choose not to. They pay contractors no better than Baizuo.

All they have going for them now is the D&D brand name, and that is slowly being tarnished now...

Nah, saying they don't want white people is going to fix everything. All the people who went to try out Pathfinder are going to come roaring back.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 08:28:55 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 07, 2023, 08:22:31 PM
But I already flipped my table and declared WotC dead to me Jan 2023... I can't keep flipping my table and declare WotC dead to me every single month of 2023!  It's redundant and exhausting.  Huh, just like WotC... touché WotC, touché.

Flip it back up. You get to express your rage while tidying up from the last rage.

I just don't have the energy of Sisyphus. It's redundant and exhausting to flip that table back up just to flip it back down again in rage.

Ooh, I know! Why don't I conserve energy and just flip my pupils whenever I hear about Hasbro/WotC doing another stupid thing?  That way I can bring my eyes back to rest easily when I need to do it all over again. So instead of rolling a table, I will be rolling my eyes. Yes, I will call it 'rolling my eyes' at WotC.  Ingenious. Much energy conservation. I am doing my part for climate change.

Quote from: Opaopajr on February 09, 2023, 03:10:05 PMI just don't have the energy of Sisyphus. It's redundant and exhausting to flip that table back up just to flip it back down again in rage.

What you need is a domineering Greek with a whip to motivate you.

Let me check my contacts.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 09, 2023, 02:55:08 PM
Wotzi should pay so that they actually attract the creatives that would otherwise go into the videogame industry.

They can afford to pay very well, but choose not to. They pay contractors no better than Baizuo.

All they have going for them now is the D&D brand name, and that is slowly being tarnished now...

A recent video I watched talked about all the reasons the OneD&D tabletop was going to fail and one of the main reasons given was the observation "WotC is a bunch of cheapskates."

His specific observation was to note that third parties with less economy of scale were delivering stitched bound hardcovers at the same price as WotC delivers glue bound ones with the same page count.

They have economy of scale advantages so could easily deliver the same higher quality product, but they don't. They'd rather skimp on product quality to maximize profits. And if they'll do it with book binding, they'll cut corners EVERYWHERE (including developing their VTT).

So, yeah, they deliver crap writing because they won't actually pay for anything better than schlock quality and bind it in the cheapest way that will look attractive on a shelf (who cares how well it holds up, they want to resell you everything in five years anyway).

It has crap management too because it's a cheapskate and won't actually pay for better talent in leadership. They aren't looking for the best... they're looking for the cheapest that can meet minimum capability.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2023, 03:49:25 PM

A recent video I watched talked about all the reasons the OneD&D tabletop was going to fail and one of the main reasons given was the observation "WotC is a bunch of cheapskates."

His specific observation was to note that third parties with less economy of scale were delivering stitched bound hardcovers at the same price as WotC delivers glue bound ones with the same page count.

They have economy of scale advantages so could easily deliver the same higher quality product, but they don't. They'd rather skimp on product quality to maximize profits. And if they'll do it with book binding, they'll cut corners EVERYWHERE (including developing their VTT).

So, yeah, they deliver crap writing because they won't actually pay for anything better than schlock quality and bind it in the cheapest way that will look attractive on a shelf (who cares how well it holds up, they want to resell you everything in five years anyway).

It has crap management too because it's a cheapskate and won't actually pay for better talent in leadership. They aren't looking for the best... they're looking for the cheapest that can meet minimum capability.

The video was by Dave Thaumavore? If it its, I found the reasons he gave for a possible fail pretty on point, which is kinda unusual...

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 09, 2023, 03:49:25 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on February 09, 2023, 02:55:08 PM
Wotzi should pay so that they actually attract the creatives that would otherwise go into the videogame industry.

They can afford to pay very well, but choose not to. They pay contractors no better than Baizuo.

All they have going for them now is the D&D brand name, and that is slowly being tarnished now...

A recent video I watched talked about all the reasons the OneD&D tabletop was going to fail and one of the main reasons given was the observation "WotC is a bunch of cheapskates."

His specific observation was to note that third parties with less economy of scale were delivering stitched bound hardcovers at the same price as WotC delivers glue bound ones with the same page count.

They have economy of scale advantages so could easily deliver the same higher quality product, but they don't. They'd rather skimp on product quality to maximize profits. And if they'll do it with book binding, they'll cut corners EVERYWHERE (including developing their VTT).

So, yeah, they deliver crap writing because they won't actually pay for anything better than schlock quality and bind it in the cheapest way that will look attractive on a shelf (who cares how well it holds up, they want to resell you everything in five years anyway).

It has crap management too because it's a cheapskate and won't actually pay for better talent in leadership. They aren't looking for the best... they're looking for the cheapest that can meet minimum capability.

I remember that video in my feed. It made a lot of good points about their dysfunctional corporate culture, and why smaller competitors can produce better product at lower prices. Although AIR he didn't mention Kickstarter, which I think has hugely boosted the quality of what small companies can put out.

Quote from: tenbones on February 09, 2023, 10:28:57 AM
I'm genuinely curious when you came to that realization? We've only been saying it for years here. But I can't remember when you've ever uttered those words before. So what was it that brought you to this conclusion?

Their games are representative of the corporations agenda, and the people they've hired to be the games custodians. It's *been* this way for a long time. I used to be "Ride or Die" for D&D... but after freelancing with them, it was glaringly apparent what they were about. I was skeptical when Pundit and Zak was brought on as consultants for 5e, not because I thought they didn't have good things to contribute, but because I never believed Mearls had the clout with the higher-ups to take anything useful from them to make 5e what it could have been in the long-run, and the progressive pogrom would ruin anything good that could have come of it.

And you, in particular, have been pretty vocal in your rationalization for their behavior. What changed?

Thanks for the genuine question, tenbones!

First as a caveat, in general, I see soulless corporations as a sometimes necessary evil. Lots of my purchases come from soulless corporations (food, appliances, etc.), because life is just too expensive otherwise.  Minimizing costs and maximizing profit has some benefits for society.

Also, I've never been "Ride or Die" for D&D. I've mostly played other RPGs since I was a teenager. I've always hated alignment and the homeless tomb robber premise, and have been ambivalent about classes and Vancian magic.

---

I'd given 5E a try and found it my favorite of D&D editions, though that didn't make it one of my favorite games. I didn't pay much attention to WotC as an RPG company.

I started looking closer at WotC about 3 years ago, after Pundit said that Candlekeep Mysteries had the combat wheelchair rules in it and that every dungeon since has been wheelchair accessible. I was so incredulous that I bought a copy of Candlekeep Mysteries, and found that there were no wheelchairs in any illustrations or text - and none of the dungeons were accessible (though one had an Egyptian style tomb that had ramps like Egyptian tombs often did).

That put me into defending WotC, simply because the claim against them was so ridiculous. I wasn't a WotC fan, but I thought Candlekeep was decent. The adventures were of mixed quality, but I liked the anthology approach much better than the early 5E modules I had tried, which were terrible quality adventure paths (IMO).

I ended up buying three more WotC books since then, with similar results. The claims against them here mostly didn't match up with what I read. They're not among my favorite RPG products, but they're at least middle of the road -- and the claims against them were completely over-the-top.

Still, I could clearly see a pattern that WotC advertised to liberal gamers with press releases or social media to play up a handful of liberal touches in the books. Those made little difference to the gameplay, but they enraged some posters here, and presumably won a few purchases from liberal gamers. It's similar to how Disney will play up its "we included a gay background character for 3 seconds in one of our movies". Token advertising like that definitely annoyed me, but I have a low opinion of most advertising in general.

-----

The biggest shift was of course the OGL fiasco, which pushed all my buttons. I'd already been vocal about how current IP restrictions are ridiculous -- and unethically pushing them even harder was a huge issue for me.

Now they're trying similar insincere advertising to try to make up for their OGL fiasco, and I'm finding it even less palatable now. It's still a problem that I can feel defensive when posters point to the Brink interview and say "see, this is what liberals think". But I'm trying to push past that.

(mistaken post)

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2023, 07:45:33 PM
It's still a problem that I can feel defensive when posters point to the Brink interview and say "see, this is what liberals think". But I'm trying to push past that.

WoTC do still seem to be trying very hard to win back left wing players with their "How do you do, fellow radicals?" thing. They clearly expected a chunk of the community to buy into their "We're cancelling the OGL to Stop Hate! Like, y'know, those straight white old cis male OSR players we attacked on PBS!" and they seem genuinely surprised that didn't work. But they keep on trying. Brink riles up conservatives & classical liberals, they get the Pavlovian response from the Left rushing to his defence.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 01:16:52 PMNot that the Properly Diverse get actual power or (much) money, they are there to POC-wash the Corporate image.

Would you trust them after you hired them just to fill a slot? Nine times out of ten, they're shit-flinging morons who you couldn't trust to pour piss out of a boot with instructions written on the heel. All they have to do is show up to meetings, act like they're involved and keep their mouths shut while the actual creative staff does the heavy lifting. At best they represent a paycheck given to a midwit to keep that filthy DEI lucre rolling in.

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2023, 07:45:33 PM
Thanks for the genuine question, tenbones!

First as a caveat, in general, I see soulless corporations as a sometimes necessary evil. Lots of my purchases come from soulless corporations (food, appliances, etc.), because life is just too expensive otherwise.  Minimizing costs and maximizing profit has some benefits for society.

Also, I've never been "Ride or Die" for D&D. I've mostly played other RPGs since I was a teenager. I've always hated alignment and the homeless tomb robber premise, and have been ambivalent about classes and Vancian magic.

Ironic since those have been gripes of mine forever too.

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2023, 07:45:33 PM
I'd given 5E a try and found it my favorite of D&D editions, though that didn't make it one of my favorite games. I didn't pay much attention to WotC as an RPG company.

I started looking closer at WotC about 3 years ago, after Pundit said that Candlekeep Mysteries had the combat wheelchair rules in it and that every dungeon since has been wheelchair accessible. I was so incredulous that I bought a copy of Candlekeep Mysteries, and found that there were no wheelchairs in any illustrations or text - and none of the dungeons were accessible (though one had an Egyptian style tomb that had ramps like Egyptian tombs often did).

That put me into defending WotC, simply because the claim against them was so ridiculous. I wasn't a WotC fan, but I thought Candlekeep was decent. The adventures were of mixed quality, but I liked the anthology approach much better than the early 5E modules I had tried, which were terrible quality adventure paths (IMO).

I've noticed this specifically - you would always mention that specific instance. But I've always felt that while you're not wrong, you weren't addressing the *fact* that the game *was* indeed moving into these woke concepts. To me, it was you staring at the tree and not looking at the forest springing up around you. You're never going to get Pundit to admit he was publicly wrong about this instances, but he, and many others here, were right about WotC in the big picture. I liken this instance of using DM's Guild as their testbed for inserting their bullshit into the game, like an anaconda slowly gaining position on its prey with its coils.

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2023, 07:45:33 PMI ended up buying three more WotC books since then, with similar results. The claims against them here mostly didn't match up with what I read. They're not among my favorite RPG products, but they're at least middle of the road -- and the claims against them were completely over-the-top.

Still, I could clearly see a pattern that WotC advertised to liberal gamers with press releases or social media to play up a handful of liberal touches in the books. Those made little difference to the gameplay, but they enraged some posters here, and presumably won a few purchases from liberal gamers. It's similar to how Disney will play up its "we included a gay background character for 3 seconds in one of our movies". Token advertising like that definitely annoyed me, but I have a low opinion of most advertising in general.

Exactly! It's inches into miles. While you think each token aggression is a piffle, it all adds up like the adage "No raindrop thinks its responsible for the flood." Until we find ourselves here.

Quote from: jhkim on February 09, 2023, 07:45:33 PM
The biggest shift was of course the OGL fiasco, which pushed all my buttons. I'd already been vocal about how current IP restrictions are ridiculous -- and unethically pushing them even harder was a huge issue for me.

Now they're trying similar insincere advertising to try to make up for their OGL fiasco, and I'm finding it even less palatable now. It's still a problem that I can feel defensive when posters point to the Brink interview and say "see, this is what liberals think". But I'm trying to push past that.

But the "liberal" view is now exactly that - Brink wants to see representation at all costs, even if it means white men leave the hobby. While we both agree the OGL debacle is a problem, you're acting as if all the woke stuff is not part of the same pogrom.

*We* are D&D consumers. Very few people here did not grow up playing D&D, or consume it in some fashion. Even if you take the OGL issue out of it, these same people have made it clear they hate us. I find it a little strange that you wish to look past that in lieu of the legalisms that also do not affect your game on any level, anymore than combat wheelchairs affect us from non-core material. It's the reason they exist at all is the problem. It doesn't take mind-reading to know their motives - they're literally telling us.