Another thing the original Kult did that you couldn't get away with now - plagiarise art. Somewhere in one of my 1E English books is a bit of art which blatantly steals from the poster for the Reanimator movie.

I don't recall any uproar about Kult outside of a reputation among gamers who'd mostly never read/played it.
It certainly wasn't any more "blasphemous" than some of the books, comics, movies and music we were consuming. There were magazine equivalents to websites like rotten.com.
I guess it seemed edgy compared to the elf/dwarf/halfling stuff, and in light of the old supposed 'Satanic Panic'.

I remember that the game seemed hard to get ahold of even when it was relatively new. I don't know if this was because of low print runs, shitty game stores in my part of the backwoods, deliberate distributor censorship, or what.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;877685So, no wonder that nowadays KULT isn't as blasphemous as it was back then. Were you to read it, you would probably miss 50% of stuff that made us react with "whoa" upon reading it in years predating y2k.

"Death is only the beginning."

Don't forget that it used an interpretation of the Kabbalah and its Sephira, that somehow seems less known today (Tipareth as a spider in the centre, instead of as "Beauty", for instance).

As for combining the worldviews of CoC and Kult, it is easy, if you remember one important part about Kult:
The reality, as we know it, is a LIE.
That also means that "big C" might be a lie as well of course, or simply not what it seems.
Essentially, when one starts with Kult, the characters has no idea of humanity's potential godhood, they can easily seem insignificant to the greatest horrors of the world.
However, as they scale off layer after layer of unspeakable horror, they start to glimpse the actual truth, that they may be as powerful as those horrors, or even more, and that some of the unspeakables used to be humans.

This shift comes in "glimpses of truth" and after a while, they might have seen enough to realize that they can choose to become monsters themselves ... or possibly something better.

Essentially, if the setting of CoC is handled as just another layer of "The Lie", the mix is perfect. I mean, making someone feel insignificant is an effective prison. And that is what The Lie is.

I'm interested.  The AW port doesn't bother me, because games like Blades in the Dark show how far and deep that can diverge and still produce a great game.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;877474It has been years since I had anything to do with vbulletin board, and I can't more relevant thread to discuss this, so pardon me if I somehow missed it...

KULT RPG is one of most (blah, blah, insert adjectives synonymous to "blasphemous", "shocking", "disturbing" here) role playing games ever. It's famous of many things, including... Well, let's just say that it's supposed to be famous.

Anyway: after many years of stagnation, it's supposed to get a reboot.

On one hand, this is awesome news to all its fans. People responsible for the reboot seem to understand the setting and lore, know how to bring back the atmosphere of the original game, know where their towels are & such. Graphics is good, one of people involved is already dead, devs speculated about releasing very special edition with the cover made of human skin, so "promising" seems to be an adequate word.

On the other hand, it's supposed to run on Apocalypse World engine.

Soooooooooo... Any KULT veterans willing to share some thoughts?

Loved Kult

Had no idea about this.

No essentially nothing about the *world Rules

So... cautiously curious? I'm not much on learning new rules sets but I'm interested in seeing what they do with the creepy old thing.

It looks like the Tool Roleplaying Game.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;877834It looks like the Tool Roleplaying Game.

JG

Back in the day I too inspiration for it from NiN and Tool videos (NSFW!)... The Brothers Quay and Survival Research Laboratories and stuff I found in Film Threat. The Silent Hill games. Some John Waters movies...
Nowadays I'd add things like A Serbian Film, Calvaire, Martyrs, Aphex Twin videos... also this video always gets me wanting to play Kult again.

Used to play the 1st Ed Swedish version a lot back in the day. Never had any problems with the system. Loved the setting back then and I am curious what the new one will look like. The new art looks great!

Quote from: Simlasa;877695I don't recall any uproar about Kult outside of a reputation among gamers who'd mostly never read/played it.
It certainly wasn't any more "blasphemous" than some of the books, comics, movies and music we were consuming. There were magazine equivalents to websites like rotten.com.
I guess it seemed edgy compared to the elf/dwarf/halfling stuff, and in light of the old supposed 'Satanic Panic'.

I think it depends on a perspective. After all, plenty of people react with lack of understanding when veterans recall "witch hunt" and accusations of D&D being devil's work.

Still, do remember, that KULT predates the Internet as we know it. First edition was released in 91, first ENGLISH in 93 - it predates not only rotten.com, but even modern search engines, so "ancient history". Heck, I think it was around these times when the very first graphical Internet Browser was introduced.

Back then we (as in, "world", because I can't comment how things were locally) we had way less access to the information, entertainment was less bloody and you didn't hear about people being raped/beheaded/slaughtered every other news.

Same goes to the ideas it discusses. It was long years before publications similar to Brown's "omigod, Jesus had children" became mainstream. Aside of scientific circles we had no access to apocrypha translated to English, we knew little and cared even less about gnosticism and so on and so forth.

KULT was one of precursors in such fields. Too bad it was merely part of a niche hobby. Being tied to that case of teenagers slaughtering other teenager in Sweden didn't help either.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;877696I remember that the game seemed hard to get ahold of even when it was relatively new. I don't know if this was because of low print runs, shitty game stores in my part of the backwoods, deliberate distributor censorship, or what.

My guess is "bad press". ...And the fact that its mechanics leaved much to be desired. From this point of view, KULT was always rather "meh" kind of game.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;877857Still, do remember, that KULT predates the Internet as we know it. First edition was released in 91, first ENGLISH in 93 - it predates not only rotten.com, but even modern search engines, so "ancient history". Heck, I think it was around these times when the very first graphical Internet Browser was introduced.

I'm not sure what your insisting with that. I was around then and my eyes were not lacking for disturbing visuals and information. If/when I wanted it it was easy to find. Kult was obviously drawing inspiration from popular media like Hellraiser and roundabout through the Mutant Chronicles game it was riffing on elements of GW's Realm of Chaos books. Last Temptation of Christ, with scenes of Jesus fucking his wife was 1988. All of that was pretty mainstream stuff.

Quote from: Catelf;877711"Death is only the beginning."

Don't forget that it used an interpretation of the Kabbalah and its Sephira, that somehow seems less known today (Tipareth as a spider in the centre, instead of as "Beauty", for instance).

True, true. I often check wikipedia articles covering Sephira/Qlippoths and observe how they evolve. One day there's some interesting passage, next day - it's erased.

"They watch". ;]

Quote from: Catelf;877711Essentially, if the setting of CoC is handled as just another layer of "The Lie", the mix is perfect. I mean, making someone feel insignificant is an effective prison. And that is what The Lie is.

Yes, and no. It's absolutely of no problem to mix even weirdest, mutually exclusive genres and settings for the purpose of single adventure or two. For example, it's no problem to introduce some Lovecraftian monsters to KULT's scenario and leave it at that with no explanation. They fought it, they killed it, or were killed by it, that's it, end of story.

However, KULT spreads its wings best across long campaigns. Such campaigns always resulted with PCs gaining insight into setting's lore and here is where problem starts.

Simplest example: PCs reach something or someone that's supposed to answer some deep questions. And then one of players launches frontal attack. "By showing their loathsome forms, Lovecraftian Monsters effectively break people's paradigm of comprehensible reality. By just being there, they bring madness, and effectively risk spontaneous Awakenings, what in turn might result with whole Illusion being shattered. It's undeniable that Mankind IS very important because of that - we are potential gods, just awaiting our ascension and ready to tear whole reality apart. So, how come they don't recognize our importance? After all, Nepharites, Lictors or even Astaroth himself prefer to work from shadows, avoid the risk of shattering the Illusion..."

I know, I know, it's possible to answer that now, when we have time to think about it, seek some advice in the Internet, check a book or two, however imagine it happens during a session. Then it happens again. And again. Because that's unavoidable in KULT - players gather pieces of puzzles.

When you mix setting it's real challenge. KULT's setting alone often seems self contradictory and even veteran GMs sometimes have trouble finding an answer. Add more external elements, incompatible by default and you're risking "a glitch" each time someone asks - and those bastards WILL do that - some question hard to answer.

You can't pause the game, or halt the session each time it happens. You can't always avoid the question. You can't always sell them bullshit, especially when you want this specific NPC to seem as trustworthy as possible, rather than manipulative liar.

That's the gist of it - the problem doesn't lie in inability to find answers, but in forming them in "the heat of battle", so to speak.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;877715I'm interested.  The AW port doesn't bother me, because games like Blades in the Dark show how far and deep that can diverge and still produce a great game.

I'm unfamiliar with the game. Some useful review out there, other than "it's a good game, because it's good and features good things, so my score is good/10"? ;]

Quote from: Simlasa;877859I'm not sure what your insisting with that. I was around then and my eyes were not lacking for disturbing visuals and information. If/when I wanted it it was easy to find. Kult was obviously drawing inspiration from popular media like Hellraiser and roundabout through the Mutant Chronicles game it was riffing on elements of GW's Realm of Chaos books. Last Temptation of Christ, with scenes of Jesus fucking his wife was 1988. All of that was pretty mainstream stuff.

The very same reason why you insist on the opposite. ;]

Because I was around and my experience totally differs from yours. On top of that, that'd be in fact, first time I've heard that somebody had no trouble finding it, or didn't find it at least "kind of" disturbing.

As for "The Last Temptation of Christ", you're talking about one of most controversial movies ever, banned in several countries. Around here it was also banned, available only via DVDs and when it was finally screened, it was done sporadically, sans any advertising, hush-hushed. You can find blog entries dating last year where the movie is still considered something blasphemous.

So no, I don't think that back then (once again: back then) such ideas were "mainstream".

Quote from: JesterRaiin;877870So no, I don't think that back then (once again: back then) such ideas were "mainstream".

I'm not saying the IDEA was mainstream but the movie was... well known director and actors, played at our local shopping mall. There was a small, sad group of protestors outside the screening I went to... we chatted for a moment afterward and they were pretty friendly (I was still a Christian back then).
There are still plenty of nuts that think gay marriage, birth control, and women wearing pants are 'blasphemous', so that's no measure.
I came from a small town, run by Mormons, but there were still no concepts in Kult that were shocking or new to anyone who had read a bit of Clive Barker (available at the local library) and watched the nightly news.
It was just a good amalgam of modern horror tropes. I get there was some panic about it up in Sweden but I have a hard time believing it shocked anyone who wasn't already prone to being easily shocked.
Maybe it broke ranks, a bit, from the generally milquetoast run of RPGs up til then... but Vampire was already out, plumping for kids to play as bloodsucking undead fiends.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;877866True, true. I often check wikipedia articles covering Sephira/Qlippoths and observe how they evolve. One day there's some interesting passage, next day - it's erased.

"They watch". ;]



Simplest example: PCs reach something or someone that's supposed to answer some deep questions. And then one of players launches frontal attack. "By showing their loathsome forms, Lovecraftian Monsters effectively break people's paradigm of comprehensible reality. By just being there, they bring madness, and effectively risk spontaneous Awakenings, what in turn might result with whole Illusion being shattered. It's undeniable that Mankind IS very important because of that - we are potential gods, just awaiting our ascension and ready to tear whole reality apart. So, how come they don't recognize our importance? After all, Nepharites, Lictors or even Astaroth himself prefer to work from shadows, avoid the risk of shattering the Illusion..."

I know, I know, it's possible to answer that now, when we have time to think about it, seek some advice in the Internet, check a book or two, however imagine it happens during a session. Then it happens again. And again. Because that's unavoidable in KULT - players gather pieces of puzzles.

When you mix setting it's real challenge. KULT's setting alone often seems self contradictory and even veteran GMs sometimes have trouble finding an answer. Add more external elements, incompatible by default and you're risking "a glitch" each time someone asks - and those bastards WILL do that - some question hard to answer.

You can't pause the game, or halt the session each time it happens. You can't always avoid the question. You can't always sell them bullshit, especially when you want this specific NPC to seem as trustworthy as possible, rather than manipulative liar.

That's the gist of it - the problem doesn't lie in inability to find answers, but in forming them in "the heat of battle", so to speak.

I personally find the idea of the "Qlippoth" annoying, they are a mix of entities and ideas, that solely has been put together because someone thought an "anti-adam" or anti-creation put together of things they had described as demonic back then was a good idea.
It would not surprise me if "Gamaliel" actually originated as a character assassination of the revered one with that name.
...Sorry, it is a kind of pet peeve.

You're right in that Kult itself is contradictory.
I remember the adventure I assume was in the original Swedish edition:
Someone was fleeing from Nepharites, away from some kind of hell .... to The Lie (Civilized "Reality"?) and was hiding there despite using his powers!
How is it possible to hide in "The Lie" if it is all illusions, that Nepharites and similar should be able to see through anyway?
The only solution is that "The Lie" isn't a lie, it isn't mere illusions, it has to be either a different plane of existence, or even a downright separate world.

Also, in the problem you are addressing, you assume that the Lovecraftian Mythos is the actual reality, or part of the reality.
I admit, I have no real love for the "Mythos", I only see it as a source for interesting things that works well to add to horror-scenarios, so saying that it is a lie is no problem for me.
Essentially, the Great Horrors do not trigger awakenings, because even if they are madness-inducing(or are they even that?), they are still a part of the LIE.
Making up explanations in the heat of battle is easy, it is all a lie, it is part of the prison. "So why did that particular unspeakable trigger an awakening?" "Because Malkuth or any of the other anti-prison sephira had created or tampered with it."
Also, if you are preparing a game where answers are supposed to be given, then prepare answers.
Even if the answer is "You are not ready for that answer yet".