It has been years since I had anything to do with vbulletin board, and I can't more relevant thread to discuss this, so pardon me if I somehow missed it...KULT RPG is one of most (blah, blah, insert adjectives synonymous to "blasphemous", "shocking", "disturbing" here) role playing games ever. It's famous of many things, including... Well, let's just say that it's supposed to be famous.
Anyway: after many years of stagnation, it's supposed to get a reboot.
On one hand, this is awesome news to all its fans. People responsible for the reboot seem to understand the setting and lore, know how to bring back the atmosphere of the original game, know where their towels are & such. Graphics is good, one of people involved is already dead, devs speculated about releasing very special edition with the cover made of human skin, so "promising" seems to be an adequate word.
On the other hand, it's supposed to run on Apocalypse World engine.
Soooooooooo... Any KULT veterans willing to share some thoughts?
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Good setting, I've used CoC to play it.
No interest at all in the *World system.
If they bring out some interesting new take on the setting I might be tempted to have a look to mine it for ideas.
I've been following it since it was announced last year, as Kult is/was a remarkably well realised, and provocative gnostic horror setting.
In some ways, it's the polar opposite to Call of Cthulhu, as it supposes that humanity are essentially fallen angels which places them at the centre of (their own) universe(s). In Call of Cthulhu the underlying factor is that humanity is utterly insignificant. In Kult, humanity is ignorant. Kult also differed from Call of Cthulhu in that it really did not pull any punches when it came to transgression. On the facebook page, there has already been complaints about the example material snippets - I expect it may continue.
I am fairly ambivalent about the system, although the original system wasn't particularly special. The main appeal was the magic - which was based on real world occult practices, and gave a philosophical premise to each Lore - and I've not really heard that much about it in the new blurb as of yet. Rolling 2D6 makes little difference to rolling D20 to me, and I expect the main 'playbook' feature of AW will probably integrate the Archetypes that were already used in Kult.
AW, like FATE, Savage and indeed some older generic systems like GURPS, tend to grate because of the evangelical zeal that their fans try to convert you to the system for everything and anything. I have played Dungeon World, but remarked at the time that it was no better than just playing D&D with more restrictions. I stand by that now, really - but I'm prepared to wait and see what they come up with for Kult. They have already made it known that it's an "adaptation" of the AW rules, rather than being a straight AW game.
The trouble is, even though I've been following it carefully, they've yet to come up with anything that has really excited me. I may end up getting the pdf, and mining it for ideas too - most likely for Mage.
Old school KULT fan here with no real experience with AW hacks. I've given dungeonworld a closer look and decided that it doesn't work the way I need an RPG to operate. But, it's KULT. So I'm following the news closely.
So with that in mind:
1) it's Divinity Lost, not Paradise Lost. Let's keep this straight.
2) the publishers have said while they began with AW as the basis, they've moved far from it in the current draft. How far? Only the lictors know. The demiurge might, but he's unreachable last time I checked (that was 1994, so...)
3) the original system was a bit of a pain. A lot of people ported the world over to different systems (Over the Edge was a popular alternative back in the day).
4) Listening to an actual play of "monster of the week", which I believe is a hack of AW, it seems possible that a hack can indeed "blend into the background", as the publishers claim this version does. I suspect some of the issues (my issues anyway) may stem from some of the vernacular used for the AW system. But again, I have no real experience with it. I'm not ready to throw in with either side just yet.
5) the publishers seem to recognize the chief complaints of the anti-AW crowd and the common criticisms and claim the game doesn't suffer those. There are rumors to the opposite. So no point in bitching til we see something more concrete.
6) it's KULT. You can run it with almost any contemporary setting RPG that makes allowances for the supernatural.
Tom
Quote from: TrippyHippy;877480In some ways, it's the polar opposite to Call of Cthulhu, as it supposes that humanity are essentially fallen angels which places them at the centre of (their own) universe(s). In Call of Cthulhu the underlying factor is that humanity is utterly insignificant. In Kult, humanity is ignorant.
Ayup. I recall one particularly interesting discussion where someone made exactly the same observation, and asked people to find a solution allowing to merge two so much different settings.
The outcome wasn't perfect, but not that bad either: Lovecraftian beings are people who Ascended and became so different both in "shape" and mind, that they became totally disconnected from sleeping Mankind and its ways. Relatively "young" and still attempting to come to terms with their nigh-omnipotent powers, they simply abandoned the stage where all drama happens and moved to other parts of true reality, waged wars against each other, etc.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;877480I am fairly ambivalent about the system, although the original system wasn't particularly special. The main appeal was the magic - which was based on real world occult practices, and gave a philosophical premise to each Lore - and I've not really heard that much about it in the new blurb as of yet. Rolling 2D6 makes little difference to rolling D20 to me, and I expect the main 'playbook' feature of AW will probably integrate the Archetypes that were already used in Kult.
The problems I have with *.world games is that they severely limit the action for the Narrator (for example: he doesn't roll dice) and that this mechanics relies on fixed set of moves dictating what PCs can and can't do, rather than on "do what you want, we'll think about relevant skill/attribute" approach.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;877480AW, like FATE, Savage and indeed some older generic systems like GURPS, tend to grate because of the evangelical zeal that their fans try to convert you to the system for everything and anything.
Unfortunately, this is true. The Internet is full of people who sacrifice so much energy into pushing the game of their choice down peoples' throats, that it leaves one wondering how they manage to play these games at all. After all, neither time, nor energy are unlimited and if you see someone preaching "x" day after day in every thread... ;]
I'd be really surprised if they can make the Playbook/Move system work in a setting where reality or the illusion can be manipulated completely.
Quote from: Simlasa;877476Good setting, I've used CoC to play it.
Are we talking about mechanics or setting crossover?
Quote from: Blusponge;8774851) it's Divinity Lost, not Paradise Lost. Let's keep this straight.
Damn! My mistake, sorry.
As for AW engine, I have a bad feeling about it. After all, to my knowledge there's no successful *.world based game that deals with horror of KULT's level.
Sure, there are some hacks or horror-themed playbooks, there's "Tremulus", yet, neither seem to gain much recognition as "AW-driven scary game", which the newest edition of KULT is supposed to be.
BTW, Over the Edge (WaRP) as an alternative for KULT's framework? I know that people used Unknown Armies and oWoD, but WaRP being a popular alternative is news for me. I know that there's Call of Cthulhu - Over the Edge connection, but KULT? Any links, materials?
Quote from: CRKrueger;877491I'd be really surprised if they can make the Playbook/Move system work in a setting where reality or the illusion can be manipulated completely.
...and where PCs travel across different "realities". Yeah, that's exactly my assumption.
I can't imagine limited set of moves to cover adventures taking place on Earth, in "Hell", among ruins of Metropolis and beyond.
I'm really curious about Kult. Back in the 90's I was never able to get ahold of a copy of it and only heard of it in hushed whispers from older, cooler gamers... kinda like Empire of the Petal Throne in the 80's.
I recall reading one review back in the day that called it "The most schizophrenic RPG ever: One half erudite Gnostic philosophy, one half Italian cannibal zombie movies".
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877474On the other hand, it's supposed to run on Apocalypse World engine.
So it's ice cream made out of kale and rabbit shit?
I'm an Old School Kult fan. My response? Fuck them with fire.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;877480On the facebook page, there has already been complaints about the example material snippets - I expect it may continue.
Post some snippets please!!!
Quote from: TrippyHippy;877480I may end up getting the pdf, and mining it for ideas too - most likely for Mage.
Good idea.
I once ran a Kult one-shot with Eldritch Ass Kicking as the rules because it was just so rules light it gave me time to teach the basics of the Kult setting quickly to the players and I wanted all of them to be reality bending mages. But for a home campaign, nWoD Mage would be a perfectly good fit.
...especially since most of the "vile darkness" in Kult comes from the setting and the GM in actual play, not actually from the rules.
I knew people who used Over the Edge but that system never worked for me for whatever reason.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877498...and where PCs travel across different "realities". Yeah, that's exactly my assumption.
I can't imagine limited set of moves to cover adventures taking place on Earth, in "Hell", among ruins of Metropolis and beyond.
In my experience of *World hacks "moves" are extremely broad - much broader than the term implies. You can sort of see the Apocalypse World system's big innovation being more about a different way to present game mechanics: rather than splitting rules chapters by subject, so you have to jump here to find your combat stuff, here to find your magic stuff, and so on, you instead have your playbook and the set of basic moves and that covers the combat bit relevant to you, the magic bit relevant to you, and so on and so forth.
In my experience, it tends to feel artificial if and only if you approach it in the following way:
"I want to accomplish something in the gameworld" -> "I'm looking up which move might accomplish that thing" -> "Right, how do I trigger that move?"
Instead, it works best and fades into the background nicely if you approach it like this:
"I want to accomplish something in the gameworld" -> "What would my character do to accomplish that?" -> "What move makes sense there?"
Where you only go to the last step if there's a reasonable chance of failure in the first place, and if you can't see a move which quite works it's actually no trouble for the referee to just improv a move on the spot.
Each and every single move in a *World game is nothing more than a skin applied to the task resolution system, just the same as any other task in any other RPG with a task resolution system. It sounds to me like the Kult team are really getting deep inside the system and understanding how it ticks and how they can make that feel like a proper Kult experience, so with the passing of time I've become less and less put off by the system shift. (It's not like the old system was any great shakes as it stood.)
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877496Are we talking about mechanics or setting crossover?
Purely for the mechanics. Like has been mentioned, the themes/assumptions of the CoC and Kult are near opposites.
I borrowed a bit from Nephilim as well.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;877508I'm really curious about Kult. Back in the 90's I was never able to get ahold of a copy of it and only heard of it in hushed whispers from older, cooler gamers... kinda like Empire of the Petal Throne in the 80's.
I recall reading one review back in the day that called it "The most schizophrenic RPG ever: One half erudite Gnostic philosophy, one half Italian cannibal zombie movies".
Heh...
It is crucial to go back in time to truly understand KULT. When it was released times were different, people thought in different ways, RPGs were less mainstream than they are now, things we're accustomed to now were prohibited and so on and so forth.
Enter KULT. It says about ideas and possibilities that were unknown back then, it presents christian mythology in different light long years before certain Dan writes his book about Christ and his alleged legacy, long before it becomes popular to discuss alternative history and so on, and so forth.
On top of it, the game misses "safety lock" - as opposite to fantasy games, it takes place in our reality and by merging it with its unorthodox suggestions full of gnostic ideas and the atmosphere of shadowy conspiracies, it's capable of twisting your perception of the real world around you, what translates to "the game doesn't stop with the session".
Plenty of people reacted with panic, accused it of being a devil's invention, like they gladly did with many different products (D&D included). Such approach resulted with difficulties to play the game (lack of copies, lack of players, public stigmata), but also in its urban legend status.
Some time passes. We accepted plenty of things as at least "possible", we don't back out from questioning even most axiomatic dogmas of life, we have an access to libraries of stuff and can read ancient manuscripts translated to at least English, there are countless sects and movements that present alternative models of reality. Both entertainment (movies, games) and live news are so full of blood and cruelty that it numbed down people's empathy and taste.
So, no wonder that nowadays KULT isn't as blasphemous as it was back then. Were you to read it, you would probably miss 50% of stuff that made us react with "whoa" upon reading it in years predating y2k.
Yet, if you think about it, there's hardly any game that's rivaling its setting in terms of darkness. Personally I can think of perhaps 2 games, no more.
And this is its greatest strength and weakness. Forget about aging, since there were hardly any elements fixed to that certain period of our history. It's just that it's hard to find people with enough skill, perspective (as in "distance"), dedication and tastes to play it "correctly" and I mean by that "squeezing from it more than just slasher scenarios". Frankly, I'm not sure I'm up to the task anymore, considering how much times changed and how much people accept as "meh".
Don't get me wrong: it's not that it's God knows what kind of game. It's just that it's like Amber or similar games featuring very demanding style of play. If all you have at your disposal are players who want to forget about the world for a moment, who don't want to dig through lore, speculate, discuss it, when all you can count on are series of one-shots rather than long campaigns, then it can't present all it has in store.
Ahem.
That being said: take alien horror, uncertainty and the possibility of your PC dying in horrible, horrible fashion from Call of Cthulhu. Add magical aspect, multilayered world and sanity from Unknown Armies. Mix it with reality of supernatural beings hiding in shadows, conspiring in a power struggle that avoids the eye of dreaming mankind, from World Of Darkness. Add spicy possibility of traveling through different layers of reality as seen in Don't Lose Your Head. Cook it, wait patiently, in the meantime watch a movie by Lynch, Cronnenberg or other similar director.
Serve.
That's KULT in a nutshell, according to your truly. ;]
Quote from: Warthur;877523Instead, it works best and fades into the background nicely if you approach it like this:
"I want to accomplish something in the gameworld" -> "What would my character do to accomplish that?" -> "What move makes sense there?"
That's, actually,
very good suggestion.
I don't have problem with *.world games per se. It's just that I get the feeling that it switches focus from the possibilities to "what moves are at my disposal and how can I put them into action" syndrome - exactly like you observed. It's like people unknowingly close themselves in a set of predetermined possibilities ONLY, something observable in cRPG vs RPG comparison, where former, while being able to not only match, but also surpass the "fun" of the latter (at least in certain cases) does it only with limited set of choices a PC might face.
This and the problem with GM not using any dice whatsoever. I like to GM, I like to roll dice. ;]
Being forbidden from doing so, takes some crucial part of my "fun" away.
Therefore, while I welcome the possibility of *.world based horror game, I'm not sure whether it will work in this specific case and whether I'll like it. I'm not yet convinced, but... We shall see.
It's also important to remember that, back in the day, "occult" ideas were generally still hidden and nowhere near as accessible as they are now over the internet. Kult tapped into real occult ideas and moulded them into a darkly plausible (but fictional!) setting with some very evocative writing and art. As I said, it really didn't pull any punches in it's content either - making Hannibal Lector seem like a well adjusted citizen.
I'm a bit hazy on the facts, but I'm sure I recall that the dangers of the Kult RPG was actually discussed at a parliamentary level in Sweden with at least one supplement very close to being legally banned. Of all the dark RPGs that came out of the 1990s, and there were lots, Kult is the darkest.
Another thing the original Kult did that you couldn't get away with now - plagiarise art. Somewhere in one of my 1E English books is a bit of art which blatantly steals from the poster for the Reanimator movie.
I don't recall any uproar about Kult outside of a reputation among gamers who'd mostly never read/played it.
It certainly wasn't any more "blasphemous" than some of the books, comics, movies and music we were consuming. There were magazine equivalents to websites like rotten.com.
I guess it seemed edgy compared to the elf/dwarf/halfling stuff, and in light of the old supposed 'Satanic Panic'.
I remember that the game seemed hard to get ahold of even when it was relatively new. I don't know if this was because of low print runs, shitty game stores in my part of the backwoods, deliberate distributor censorship, or what.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877685So, no wonder that nowadays KULT isn't as blasphemous as it was back then. Were you to read it, you would probably miss 50% of stuff that made us react with "whoa" upon reading it in years predating y2k.
"Death is only the beginning."
Don't forget that it used an interpretation of the Kabbalah and its Sephira, that somehow seems less known today (Tipareth as a spider in the centre, instead of as "Beauty", for instance).
As for combining the worldviews of CoC and Kult, it is easy, if you remember one important part about Kult:
The reality, as we know it, is a LIE.
That also means that "big C" might be a lie as well of course, or simply not what it seems.
Essentially, when one starts with Kult, the characters has no idea of humanity's potential godhood, they can easily seem insignificant to the greatest horrors of the world.
However, as they scale off layer after layer of unspeakable horror, they start to glimpse the actual truth, that they may be as powerful as those horrors, or even more, and that some of the unspeakables used to be humans.
This shift comes in "glimpses of truth" and after a while, they might have seen enough to realize that they can choose to become monsters themselves ... or possibly something better.
Essentially, if the setting of CoC is handled as just another layer of "The Lie", the mix is perfect. I mean, making someone feel insignificant is an effective prison. And that is what The Lie is.
I'm interested. The AW port doesn't bother me, because games like Blades in the Dark show how far and deep that can diverge and still produce a great game.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877474It has been years since I had anything to do with vbulletin board, and I can't more relevant thread to discuss this, so pardon me if I somehow missed it...
KULT RPG is one of most (blah, blah, insert adjectives synonymous to "blasphemous", "shocking", "disturbing" here) role playing games ever. It's famous of many things, including... Well, let's just say that it's supposed to be famous.
Anyway: after many years of stagnation, it's supposed to get a reboot.
On one hand, this is awesome news to all its fans. People responsible for the reboot seem to understand the setting and lore, know how to bring back the atmosphere of the original game, know where their towels are & such. Graphics is good, one of people involved is already dead, devs speculated about releasing very special edition with the cover made of human skin, so "promising" seems to be an adequate word.
On the other hand, it's supposed to run on Apocalypse World engine.
Soooooooooo... Any KULT veterans willing to share some thoughts?
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Loved Kult
Had no idea about this.
No essentially nothing about the *world Rules
So... cautiously curious? I'm not much on learning new rules sets but I'm interested in seeing what they do with the creepy old thing.
It looks like the Tool Roleplaying Game.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;877834It looks like the Tool Roleplaying Game.
JG
Back in the day I too inspiration for it from NiN and Tool videos (NSFW! (https://vimeo.com/3556108))... The Brothers Quay and Survival Research Laboratories and stuff I found in Film Threat. The Silent Hill games. Some John Waters movies...
Nowadays I'd add things like A Serbian Film, Calvaire, Martyrs, Aphex Twin videos... also this video (https://vimeo.com/16056709) always gets me wanting to play Kult again.
Used to play the 1st Ed Swedish version a lot back in the day. Never had any problems with the system. Loved the setting back then and I am curious what the new one will look like. The new art looks great!
Quote from: Simlasa;877695I don't recall any uproar about Kult outside of a reputation among gamers who'd mostly never read/played it.
It certainly wasn't any more "blasphemous" than some of the books, comics, movies and music we were consuming. There were magazine equivalents to websites like rotten.com.
I guess it seemed edgy compared to the elf/dwarf/halfling stuff, and in light of the old supposed 'Satanic Panic'.
I think it depends on a perspective. After all, plenty of people react with lack of understanding when veterans recall "witch hunt" and accusations of D&D being devil's work.
Still, do remember, that KULT predates the Internet as we know it. First edition was released in 91, first ENGLISH in 93 - it predates not only rotten.com, but even modern search engines, so "ancient history". Heck, I think it was around these times when the very first graphical Internet Browser was introduced.
Back then we (as in, "world", because I can't comment how things were locally) we had way less access to the information, entertainment was less bloody and you didn't hear about people being raped/beheaded/slaughtered every other news.
Same goes to the ideas it discusses. It was long years before publications similar to Brown's "omigod, Jesus had children" became mainstream. Aside of scientific circles we had no access to apocrypha translated to English, we knew little and cared even less about gnosticism and so on and so forth.
KULT was one of precursors in such fields. Too bad it was merely part of a niche hobby. Being tied to that case of teenagers slaughtering other teenager in Sweden didn't help either.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;877696I remember that the game seemed hard to get ahold of even when it was relatively new. I don't know if this was because of low print runs, shitty game stores in my part of the backwoods, deliberate distributor censorship, or what.
My guess is "bad press". ...And the fact that its mechanics leaved much to be desired. From this point of view, KULT was always rather "meh" kind of game.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877857Still, do remember, that KULT predates the Internet as we know it. First edition was released in 91, first ENGLISH in 93 - it predates not only rotten.com, but even modern search engines, so "ancient history". Heck, I think it was around these times when the very first graphical Internet Browser was introduced.
I'm not sure what your insisting with that. I was around then and my eyes were not lacking for disturbing visuals and information. If/when I wanted it it was easy to find. Kult was obviously drawing inspiration from popular media like Hellraiser and roundabout through the Mutant Chronicles game it was riffing on elements of GW's Realm of Chaos books. Last Temptation of Christ, with scenes of Jesus fucking his wife was 1988. All of that was pretty mainstream stuff.
Quote from: Catelf;877711"Death is only the beginning."
Don't forget that it used an interpretation of the Kabbalah and its Sephira, that somehow seems less known today (Tipareth as a spider in the centre, instead of as "Beauty", for instance).
True, true. I often check wikipedia articles covering Sephira/Qlippoths and observe how they evolve. One day there's some interesting passage, next day - it's erased.
"They watch". ;]
Quote from: Catelf;877711Essentially, if the setting of CoC is handled as just another layer of "The Lie", the mix is perfect. I mean, making someone feel insignificant is an effective prison. And that is what The Lie is.
Yes, and no. It's absolutely of no problem to mix even weirdest, mutually exclusive genres and settings for the purpose of single adventure or two. For example, it's no problem to introduce some Lovecraftian monsters to KULT's scenario and leave it at that with no explanation. They fought it, they killed it, or were killed by it, that's it, end of story.
However, KULT spreads its wings best across long campaigns. Such campaigns always resulted with PCs gaining insight into setting's lore and here is where problem starts.
Simplest example: PCs reach something or someone that's supposed to answer some deep questions. And then one of players launches frontal attack.
"By showing their loathsome forms, Lovecraftian Monsters effectively break people's paradigm of comprehensible reality. By just being there, they bring madness, and effectively risk spontaneous Awakenings, what in turn might result with whole Illusion being shattered. It's undeniable that Mankind IS very important because of that - we are potential gods, just awaiting our ascension and ready to tear whole reality apart. So, how come they don't recognize our importance? After all, Nepharites, Lictors or even Astaroth himself prefer to work from shadows, avoid the risk of shattering the Illusion..."I know, I know, it's possible to answer that now, when we have time to think about it, seek some advice in the Internet, check a book or two, however imagine it happens during a session. Then it happens again. And again. Because that's unavoidable in KULT - players gather pieces of puzzles.
When you mix setting it's real challenge. KULT's setting alone often seems self contradictory and even veteran GMs sometimes have trouble finding an answer. Add more external elements, incompatible by default and you're risking "a glitch" each time someone asks - and those bastards WILL do that - some question hard to answer.
You can't pause the game, or halt the session each time it happens. You can't always avoid the question. You can't always sell them bullshit, especially when you want this specific NPC to seem as trustworthy as possible, rather than manipulative liar.
That's the gist of it - the problem doesn't lie in inability to find answers, but in forming them in "the heat of battle", so to speak.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;877715I'm interested. The AW port doesn't bother me, because games like Blades in the Dark show how far and deep that can diverge and still produce a great game.
I'm unfamiliar with the game. Some useful review out there, other than "it's a good game, because it's good and features good things, so my score is good/10"? ;]
Quote from: Simlasa;877859I'm not sure what your insisting with that. I was around then and my eyes were not lacking for disturbing visuals and information. If/when I wanted it it was easy to find. Kult was obviously drawing inspiration from popular media like Hellraiser and roundabout through the Mutant Chronicles game it was riffing on elements of GW's Realm of Chaos books. Last Temptation of Christ, with scenes of Jesus fucking his wife was 1988. All of that was pretty mainstream stuff.
The very same reason why you insist on the opposite. ;]
Because I was around and my experience totally differs from yours. On top of that, that'd be in fact, first time I've heard that somebody had no trouble finding it, or didn't find it at least "kind of" disturbing.
As for "The Last Temptation of Christ", you're talking about one of most controversial movies ever, banned in several countries. Around here it was also banned, available only via DVDs and when it was finally screened, it was done sporadically, sans any advertising, hush-hushed. You can find blog entries dating last year where the movie is still considered something blasphemous.
So no, I don't think that back then (once again:
back then) such ideas were "mainstream".
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877870So no, I don't think that back then (once again: back then) such ideas were "mainstream".
I'm not saying the IDEA was mainstream but the movie was... well known director and actors, played at our local shopping mall. There was a small, sad group of protestors outside the screening I went to... we chatted for a moment afterward and they were pretty friendly (I was still a Christian back then).
There are still plenty of nuts that think gay marriage, birth control, and women wearing pants are 'blasphemous', so that's no measure.
I came from a small town, run by Mormons, but there were still no concepts in Kult that were shocking or new to anyone who had read a bit of Clive Barker (available at the local library) and watched the nightly news.
It was just a good amalgam of modern horror tropes. I get there was some panic about it up in Sweden but I have a hard time believing it shocked anyone who wasn't already prone to being easily shocked.
Maybe it broke ranks, a bit, from the generally milquetoast run of RPGs up til then... but Vampire was already out, plumping for kids to play as bloodsucking undead fiends.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877866True, true. I often check wikipedia articles covering Sephira/Qlippoths and observe how they evolve. One day there's some interesting passage, next day - it's erased.
"They watch". ;]
Simplest example: PCs reach something or someone that's supposed to answer some deep questions. And then one of players launches frontal attack. "By showing their loathsome forms, Lovecraftian Monsters effectively break people's paradigm of comprehensible reality. By just being there, they bring madness, and effectively risk spontaneous Awakenings, what in turn might result with whole Illusion being shattered. It's undeniable that Mankind IS very important because of that - we are potential gods, just awaiting our ascension and ready to tear whole reality apart. So, how come they don't recognize our importance? After all, Nepharites, Lictors or even Astaroth himself prefer to work from shadows, avoid the risk of shattering the Illusion..."
I know, I know, it's possible to answer that now, when we have time to think about it, seek some advice in the Internet, check a book or two, however imagine it happens during a session. Then it happens again. And again. Because that's unavoidable in KULT - players gather pieces of puzzles.
When you mix setting it's real challenge. KULT's setting alone often seems self contradictory and even veteran GMs sometimes have trouble finding an answer. Add more external elements, incompatible by default and you're risking "a glitch" each time someone asks - and those bastards WILL do that - some question hard to answer.
You can't pause the game, or halt the session each time it happens. You can't always avoid the question. You can't always sell them bullshit, especially when you want this specific NPC to seem as trustworthy as possible, rather than manipulative liar.
That's the gist of it - the problem doesn't lie in inability to find answers, but in forming them in "the heat of battle", so to speak.
I personally find the idea of the "Qlippoth" annoying, they are a mix of entities and ideas, that solely has been put together because someone thought an "anti-adam" or anti-creation put together of things they had described as demonic back then was a good idea.
It would not surprise me if "Gamaliel" actually originated as a character assassination of the revered one with that name.
...Sorry, it is a kind of pet peeve.
You're right in that Kult itself is contradictory.
I remember the adventure I assume was in the original Swedish edition:
Someone was fleeing from Nepharites, away from some kind of hell .... to The Lie (Civilized "Reality"?) and was hiding there despite using his powers!
How is it possible to hide in "The Lie" if it is all illusions, that Nepharites and similar should be able to see through anyway?
The only solution is that "The Lie" isn't a lie, it isn't mere illusions, it has to be either a different plane of existence, or even a downright separate world.
Also, in the problem you are addressing, you assume that the Lovecraftian Mythos is the actual reality, or part of the reality.
I admit, I have no real love for the "Mythos", I only see it as a source for interesting things that works well to add to horror-scenarios, so saying that it is a lie is no problem for me.
Essentially, the Great Horrors do not trigger awakenings, because even if they are madness-inducing(or are they even that?), they are still a part of the LIE.
Making up explanations in the heat of battle is easy, it is all a lie, it is part of the prison. "So why did that particular unspeakable trigger an awakening?" "Because Malkuth or any of the other anti-prison sephira had created or tampered with it."
Also, if you are preparing a game where answers are supposed to be given, then prepare answers.
Even if the answer is "You are not ready for that answer yet".
The bit of Kult's cosmology I really enjoy - apart from the overarching "humans are at the centre of everything - but 'human' is a way broader category than you think it is, and not in a good way" deal which underpins everything - is the delicious cosmological implication that God and the Devil are two sides of the same person - a human being like any other who, at the crunch point when their higher and lower selves confront each other, botched it horribly, causing God to vanish and the Devil to be left with the job of trying to keep things together.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877870As for "The Last Temptation of Christ", you're talking about one of most controversial movies ever, banned in several countries. Around here it was also banned, available only via DVDs and when it was finally screened, it was done sporadically, sans any advertising, hush-hushed. You can find blog entries dating last year where the movie is still considered something blasphemous.
Greatest stunt casting EVER.
jg
Quote from: Simlasa;877894I'm not saying the IDEA was mainstream but the movie was... well known director and actors, played at our local shopping mall. There was a small, sad group of protestors outside the screening I went to... we chatted for a moment afterward and they were pretty friendly (I was still a Christian back then).
That's well and good, thumbs up for living in tolerant parts of the world, but this doesn't change the way things were back then. I hope I made it clear that The Last Temptation wasn't "mainstream"
back then in context of the world. That's what it's about - the state of the world back then. Not some specific city, not a state, not States'. World.
Sure, you may be a guy who's watching
Srpski Film (or whatever passes as "shocker" nowadays) with his friends without feeling any strong emotions, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not "mainstream", even if people
know it exists and you can watch it via Netflix. Similarly,
back then (this is crucial) neither "The Temptation" nor such ideas could've been considered mainstream, even if they were nothing new according to some specific cases/places.
Help me out here, Pippi, English is neither my first language nor one I use very well, so if you're planning to rely on Mhurrican stubbornness and judge the past by your own personal, subjective experience, we're not gonna find a common language. ;]
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Quote from: Catelf;877920I personally find the idea of the "Qlippoth" annoying, they are a mix of entities and ideas, that solely has been put together because someone thought an "anti-adam" or anti-creation put together of things they had described as demonic back then was a good idea.
It would not surprise me if "Gamaliel" actually originated as a character assassination of the revered one with that name.
...Sorry, it is a kind of pet peeve.
Just to make things clear: we're talking about setting or "real life" here?
Quote from: Catelf;877920How is it possible to hide in "The Lie" if it is all illusions, that Nepharites and similar should be able to see through anyway?
The only solution is that "The Lie" isn't a lie, it isn't mere illusions, it has to be either a different plane of existence, or even a downright separate world.
Yes... and no. ;]
Different versions of KULT treat the Illusion in different fashion. Sometimes it's really different plane of existence, a kingdom-prison erected on Malkut's skin, sort of "a cancer" with our whole universe hidden withing, and then it's matching your assumption. Then again, in other occurrences it's more like an augmented reality, superimposed on streets of Metropolis itself.
BTW, this reminds me about
Interzone from Burroughs' "Naked Lunch" and the second part of "The Futurological Congress" by St. Lem, which is probably one of best explanation of how the Illusion might work.
Anyway, in the latter approach, there's no "beyond", only different perceptions. Different beings are adjusted to perceive different ranges of reality only, so when hunters "see through the Lie", it means that they see things as they really are - celebrities with clown masks covering their faces, people whose "smartphones" are some sort of parasites, piercing their skulls with small tentacles and sucking dry their souls, monsters roaming slums, pretending to be "merely" violent gang members and so on and so forth. It's possible to hide before such beings from beyond, because to them we're all alike: just filthy, blind and drugged entities focused on totally irrelevant matters, worshiping pieces of trash.
...but they might miss a lot of other details. They don't see what is written on our t-shirts, they don't perceive pictures transmitted via tv, and once you cover yourself with rags, cease to act "differently", you're just another piece of the Illusion. They could've been standing next to their prey unable to recognize it as long as it behaves properly.
What brings us to "power usage". It could've been merely a momentary blip on their scanner, and that'd allow the GM to change it into "catch a mouse", with hunters coming closer the moment that magician decides to evoke some power, but losing track the moment he stops and moves on. Kind of, you know "triangulation", or Matrix effect.
Not saying that it's how things are - it's merely an attempt to find an explanation to self-contradictory setting. ;]
Quote from: Catelf;877920Essentially, the Great Horrors do not trigger awakenings, because even if they are madness-inducing(or are they even that?), they are still a part of the LIE.
It's possible. Then again: it is suggested across books and editions, that witnessing something outside of your typical paradigm (extreme fear, awful carnage, things that simply "can't" exist, being tortured) - no matter what is the source -
might crack the Illusion, allow the witness to see the true reality and bring him closer to the Awakening.
Now, even if we agree that Lovecraftian monsters don't make cracks in the Illusion, they are almost certainly guaranteed to bring havoc and destruction, to the lives of people, and that's pretty much the same.
Effectively, when you deploy something more powerful than a Nightgaunt, you're risking spontaneous Awakenings and this is like an avalanche of problems.
Quote from: Catelf;877920Making up explanations in the heat of battle is easy, it is all a lie, it is part of the prison. "So why did that particular unspeakable trigger an awakening?" "Because Malkuth or any of the other anti-prison sephira had created or tampered with it."
Also, if you are preparing a game where answers are supposed to be given, then prepare answers.
Even if the answer is "You are not ready for that answer yet".
Short version: it's impossible to prepare all answers in advance, and if you're planning to pull "it's just a lie", or "can't answer that right now" move quite often, you're risking setting's consistency, stripping it of any forms of certainty, which results in players approaching a brand new game (as in "world") each time they are starting a session. This isn't good. To play any game, players - at least those I had pleasure to play with - require some safety, predictability, some healthy dosage of "meta" knowledge to feel at home and play for extended amounts of time.
Because in the end, KULT is just a game. One, that's resembling our reality, but just a game.
I require an excessive amount of alcohol and time to require my point of view in a broader sense. I'm, unfortunately, in the process of my liver's regeneration what rules out any forms of alcoholic beverage and working with online translators for longer periods of time is pain in the ass. ;]
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878080I hope I made it clear that The Last Temptation wasn't "mainstream" back then in context of the world.
Oh, now it has to have been mainstream for the whole planet? Does ANYTHING qualify for that except maybe Star Wars and Disney?
I wasn't flying all over the world to check... but around here, if it plays in the local shopping mall THAT means it's mainstream.
Not the ideas, the MOVIE.
What else played at the shopping mall theater? Hellraiser, a popular movie that Kult pulled a good bit of inspiration from.
QuoteSure, you may be a guy who's watching Srpski Film (or whatever passes as "shocker" nowadays) with his friends without feeling any strong emotions, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not "mainstream"
Never claimed it was. A Serbian Film would NOT have played at our local shopping mall (it's got subtitles, folks around here HATE subtitles!).
My ONLY argument with you is your story of "POOF, the internet came along and suddenly we were presented with all this trangressive stuff that NOBODY had seen or heard of before... we were mere babes in the woods up to that point... EXCEPT for KULT! Because Kult was just sooooooo shocking and unlike anything anyone had ever seen before!!!! (high pitched scream goes here)" which is total bullshit except maybe for whatever Candyland corner of reality you grew up in.
It's true that my grandma might not have seen gay men swap semen-laden kisses up until she accidentally clicked on some Badwrongfun link... but really, PLENTY of youths were into dark music, dark movies (Faces of Death) and reading up on crazy sex/death/occult subjects if for no other reason than to scare their parents.
Quote from: Warthur;877922The bit of Kult's cosmology I really enjoy - apart from the overarching "humans are at the centre of everything - but 'human' is a way broader category than you think it is, and not in a good way" deal which underpins everything
Well, it's not that KULT pushed humans that hard to the front. Take Tiferet and her agenda. It is said that she forms alliances in places so distant, that the Illusion is unknown there, what implies that the true reality is more enormous than we think. Or that curious case of an angel who abducts some people, dumps them on some distant planet and reigns over them with an iron hand, punishing severely for every transgression of "God's" law.
We - the Mankind - are sleeping gods, vessels carrying the potential to mutate into probably most powerful beings ever, but there was little to no chance to ever achieve that, effectively resulting with a gamebreaker.
It was, more a possible plot hook, a part of lore, rather than something truly attainable, as opposite to, let's say oWoD's Golconda.
We were important, but for the 99% of time - just a pawns that, similarly to Call of Cthulhu, end dead or insane. Yummy. ;]
Quote from: Warthur;877922is the delicious cosmological implication that God and the Devil are two sides of the same person - a human being like any other who, at the crunch point when their higher and lower selves confront each other, botched it horribly, causing God to vanish and the Devil to be left with the job of trying to keep things together.
Ha! I recall long nights spent on discussing that implication. Was Astaroth to replace the Demiurge, what if he WAS the Demiurge all along, only forgot about that, what if this is the very same being that on occasions switches the persona, etc, etc.
Good times.
Quote from: James Gillen;878074Greatest stunt casting EVER.
Are we talking about certain Pilate? ;]
BTW, I think I recall Defoe claiming that he still didn't believe, didn't find no faith afterwards & such. It was very refreshing to see an actor approaching his role in professional manner, rather than making a drama about it.
Quote from: Simlasa;878086Oh, now it has to have been mainstream for the whole planet?
No, silly. It was discussed in the context of the world since the beginning. There's no sudden change of narration.
Quote from: Simlasa;878086Does ANYTHING qualify for that except maybe Star Wars and Disney?
Sure.
Quote from: Simlasa;878086I wasn't flying all over the world to check... but around here, if it plays in the local shopping mall THAT means it's mainstream.
Not the ideas, the MOVIE.
What you do in your spare time, and what happens in your neighborhood is irrelevant to this discussion. Sorry.
Quote from: Simlasa;878086What else played at the shopping mall theater? Hellraiser, a popular movie that Kult pulled a good bit of inspiration from.
Yes, and?
You seem to - correct me if I'm wrong - insist on assumption that just because something was available, it became
instantly "mainstream", as in "widely known, recognized and acceptable", and this is false assumption.
On top of that, I'm not sure why you're putting any emphasis on "Hellraiser", and use it as argument, when I'm pointing out that ideas presented by KULT challenged Christian ideas, and that wasn't very popular thing to do "back then" (once again:
back then).
Quote from: Simlasa;878086Never claimed it was. A Serbian Film would NOT have played at our local shopping mall (it's got subtitles, folks around here HATE subtitles!).
...and once again, what happens now in your neighborhood and what happened back then...
Quote from: Simlasa;878086My ONLY argument with you is your story of "POOF, the internet came along and suddenly we were presented with all this trangressive stuff that NOBODY had seen or heard of before... we were mere babes in the woods up to that point... EXCEPT for KULT! Because Kult was just sooooooo shocking and unlike anything anyone had ever seen before!!!! (high pitched scream goes here)" which is total bullshit except maybe for whatever Candyland corner of reality you grew up in.
Your only argument is B&W oversimplification of my story, then. And unless you're willing to put your stubbornness aside and actually try and read what I'm writing, there's absolutely no way we're gonna form some agreement. Your choice, Pippi. ;]
Quote from: Simlasa;878086It's true that my grandma might not have seen gay men swap semen-laden kisses up until she accidentally clicked on some Badwrongfun link... but really, PLENTY of youths were into dark music, dark movies (Faces of Death) and reading up on crazy sex/death/occult subjects if for no other reason than to scare their parents.
Sweetie, you're still unwilling to accept the world outside of your neighborhood. As such, you're not discussing the same topic that I am, or more precisely, you're trying to rewrite the past. I can assure you of one thing: you can't count on me agreeing that KULT
at the moment of its release was just a mundane game that bring nothing new (also disturbing and blasphemous) to the table. I'm not sure whether it's what you're trying to achieve, but if this is the case, then at least one of us is wasting his time here. :nono:
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878080Just to make things clear: we're talking about setting or "real life" here?
The Qlippoth of Kult is based on the "real" one, and that original is a total mess(it was the one I was referring to), it seems to me that it is clearly a work of fiction to begin with, as if one had created a Pantheon made up by Norse Loki, Zeus, Ilian from Mutant Chronicles, Cthulhu, Tiamat, Finder from Forgotten Realms, and Nergal.
I may be exaggerating a bit, but not very much.
It isn't merely a messy bunch to begin with, but the mix itself is so ragged that it could not really work, and would have an internal strife worse than the regular greek pantheon.
...And that kind of bunch is allegedly ordered into a body-like structure similar to the one of the Sephira?
Just no.
Nowadays, that also further distracts me from accepting that part of the setting in Kult.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878080Not saying that it's how things are - it's merely an attempt to find an explanation to self-contradictory setting. ;]
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It's possible. Then again: it is suggested across books and editions, that witnessing something outside of your typical paradigm (extreme fear, awful carnage, things that simply "can't" exist, being tortured) - no matter what is the source - might crack the Illusion, allow the witness to see the true reality and bring him closer to the Awakening.
Now, even if we agree that Lovecraftian monsters don't make cracks in the Illusion, they are almost certainly guaranteed to bring havoc and destruction, to the lives of people, and that's pretty much the same.
Effectively, when you deploy something more powerful than a Nightgaunt, you're risking spontaneous Awakenings and this is like an avalanche of problems.
--------------------------------------
Short version: it's impossible to prepare all answers in advance, and if you're planning to pull "it's just a lie", or "can't answer that right now" move quite often, you're risking setting's consistency, stripping it of any forms of certainty, which results in players approaching a brand new game (as in "world") each time they are starting a session. This isn't good. To play any game, players - at least those I had pleasure to play with - require some safety, predictability, some healthy dosage of "meta" knowledge to feel at home and play for extended amounts of time.
Because in the end, KULT is just a game. One, that's resembling our reality, but just a game.
I require an excessive amount of alcohol and time to require my point of view in a broader sense. I'm, unfortunately, in the process of my liver's regeneration what rules out any forms of alcoholic beverage and working with online translators for longer periods of time is pain in the ass. ;]
Well, it is an explanation that works, as I see it.
-----------------------------
But then, how often are things more powerful than Nightgaunts actually deployed?
--------------------------
Essentially, in order to be able to make it work as a game, you must break parts of it anyway.
So choose a way in which it works, and stick to it.
Of course, that do not mean that the Player Characters always must get correct info, as the NPCs, even the wise ones, not always knows the truth.
Even in our actual reality, there are different ways to see and interpret the truth.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878095No, silly. It was discussed in the context of the world since the beginning. There's no sudden change of narration.
Not seeing any mention of 'The Entire World' elsewhere on this thread... I think YOU are presuming that what might have been true in your neck of the woods was true all over...
QuoteWhat you do in your spare time, and what happens in your neighborhood is irrelevant to this discussion.
Why? I live in Las Vegas... the dirty grimy soul of the U.S.. Companies use us as test-beds for products because we're so fucking average. Last I heard we had a higher percentage of Mormons than Salt Lake City... but there was still plenty of horror and porn at the video stores.
QuoteYou seem to - correct me if I'm wrong - insist on assumption that just because something was available, it became instantly "mainstream", as in "widely known, recognized and acceptable", and this is false assumption.
No assumption, I'm saying Hellraiser and The Last Temptation of Christ were 'widely known, recognized and acceptable' among a significant portion of my countrymen. Movies about men fucking livestock... not so much.
QuoteOn top of that, I'm not sure why you're putting any emphasis on "Hellraiser", and use it as argument, when I'm pointing out that ideas presented by KULT challenged Christian ideas, and that wasn't very popular thing to do "back then" (once again: back then).
Because Hellraiser predated KULT and influenced it... but it was a widely seen movie that was pretty popular. It did challenge Christian notions to some extent AND challenging Christian notions was a VERY POPULAR passtime for a significant portion of youth culture 'back then' and earlier.
Here in the U.S. there was a TV mini-series in the 70s 'The Word', based on an Irving Wallace book that directly challenged a whole lot of Christian notions. Sure, some folks made noise about it... but it was on fucking prime time national television. Nothing gets on mainstream TV here that isn't a pretty safe bet that viewers will NOT turn the channel.
Dan Brown's book was nothing new and neither was Kult EXCEPT that it put those ideas into an RPG.
Really, I think you're the one with blinkers on about what was going on in the world 'back then'.
QuoteYour only argument is B&W oversimplification of my story
Nope, I reread it. I've got it right, I just disagree.
QuoteSweetie, you're still unwilling to accept the world outside of your neighborhood.
Right back at ya! Popular culture in my country was chock full of stuff you seem to be claiming was much less influential and accepted than it was. 'Mainstream' involves more than just your grandma and some down-home Baptists. Maybe the swedes got all torqued about it but here it was no big shakes, really.
I should probably be clear though, I really LIKE Kult. I'm just questioning any claims to how transgressive it was compared to anything except maybe other elf-games of the day... and even then... we already had Vampire.
Quote from: Simlasa;878086My ONLY argument with you is your story of "POOF, the internet came along and suddenly we were presented with all this trangressive stuff that NOBODY had seen or heard of before... we were mere babes in the woods up to that point... EXCEPT for KULT! Because Kult was just sooooooo shocking and unlike anything anyone had ever seen before!!!! (high pitched scream goes here)" which is total bullshit except maybe for whatever Candyland corner of reality you grew up in.
It's true that my grandma might not have seen gay men swap semen-laden kisses up until she accidentally clicked on some Badwrongfun link... but really, PLENTY of youths were into dark music, dark movies (Faces of Death) and reading up on crazy sex/death/occult subjects if for no other reason than to scare their parents.
Why not simply accept that you two obviously grew up in clearly different environments?
Quote from: Catelf;878100Why not simply accept that you two obviously grew up in clearly different environments?
I wouldn't even be arguing with him if he'd started out with "Well, where I'm from..." rather than some sweeping statement about the revelations of the internet and Dan Brown.
But you're right.
It's particularly silly since we obviously both like the game.
I think the problem here is Simlasa and Jesterrain are operating on two somewhat different definitions are "mainstream".
As I recall, Last Temptation of Christ was a (highly) controversial movie in the US but was a "mainstream" release in the sense it was released through regular channels and in most venues with no special restrictions and widely shown. It wasn't something like Faces of Death or Kids at Play" that you had to hunt up in backrooms, weird arthouse cinemas and get from a "friend of a friend".
Quote from: Simlasa;878099Not seeing any mention of 'The Entire World' elsewhere on this thread... I think YOU are presuming that what might have been true in your neck of the woods was true all over...
No one is more blind than the one who doesn't want to see. CTRL+F:
as in, "world", because I can't comment how things were locally
...or better not. There's absolutely no point in discussing anything with a Mhurrican, once he enters full patriotism "USA > World" mode, so let's just stop here, shall we? ;)
до свидания
Quote from: Catelf;878098The Qlippoth of Kult is based on the "real" one, and that original is a total mess(it was the one I was referring to), it seems to me that it is clearly a work of fiction to begin with, as if one had created a Pantheon made up by Norse Loki, Zeus, Ilian from Mutant Chronicles, Cthulhu, Tiamat, Finder from Forgotten Realms, and Nergal.
I may be exaggerating a bit, but not very much.
It isn't merely a messy bunch to begin with, but the mix itself is so ragged that it could not really work, and would have an internal strife worse than the regular greek pantheon.
...And that kind of bunch is allegedly ordered into a body-like structure similar to the one of the Sephira?
Just no.
Nowadays, that also further distracts me from accepting that part of the setting in Kult.
To be fair, as I understand it the setting of Kult is explicitly dysfunctional; the Qlippoth are plotting against each other, the Sephiroth are too, and when it kicks off everything is going to come crashing down horribly because the thing which imposed order and co-operation on entities which would much rather just fight is gone. So you could almost see that as a feature, not a bug.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878104No one is more blind than the one who doesn't want to see. CTRL+F:
as in, "world", because I can't comment how things were locally
...or better not. There's absolutely no point in discussing anything with a Mhurrican, once he enters full patriotism "USA > World" mode, so let's just stop here, shall we? ;)
до свидания
And there's little point in discussing things with an Otherplacian once that switched to "Lets talk down to the poor stupid totally unworldly USian" mode.
(But its totally a fact the US is the Only Place in the World where people aren't constantly aware of, accepting and considering the viewpoint of every one every where else so any comment they make on conditions anywhere is objectively true. Its a fact!)
Quote from: Nexus;878107And there's little point in discussing things with an Otherplacian once that switched to "Lets talk down to the poor stupid totally unworldly USian" mode.
Guilty as charged. ;]
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878104as in, "world", because I can't comment how things were locally
Yeah, missed that needle in the haystack...
If you can't comment on 'locally' for everyone how can you comment on the 'world' for everyone?
Quoteso let's just stop here, shall we?
Agreed!
Quote from: Simlasa;878109Yeah, missed that needle in the haystack...
If you can't comment on 'locally' for everyone how can you comment on the 'world' for everyone?
Agreed!
Don't worry about it. We're just poor dumb 'mhuricans trying to speak on things out simple minds just can't comphrend. So arrogant of us, to have different notions than our innate betters! :rolleyes:
Quote from: Simlasa;878102I wouldn't even be arguing with him if he'd started out with "Well, where I'm from..." rather than some sweeping statement about the revelations of the internet and Dan Brown.
But you're right.
It's particularly silly since we obviously both like the game.
Personally, I understand him, I got the first edition of KULT in swedish less than a year after it came out.
Hellraiser had been out a while, sure, but I was never into those kinds of movies, especially not back then.
The rpg KULT, on the other hand .... was massively intriguing.
And even though there were movies and such of that kind around, it was more for the thrill than for actually questioning christianity and such, while KULT was including the idea of actually exploring what was beyond Death itself.
Not merely dying, but exploring nightmarish realms beyond death.
And then there was the thing about the lost Demiurge, the seeming equivalence of "God" being ... gone?
It offered a way to discuss christianity under the guise of fiction, a kind of haven, free from any feeling of risking damnation, it easily made those who encountered it questioning, despite being fiction.
It made us think.
The factoid blurb on the Kult Facebook page states:
QuoteTriva of the week:
- The pope actually banned Kult when it was released in Italy.
- In Sweden, Kult was seen as so shocking that toy stores stopped selling role playing games alltogether.
Oh and they'll be releasing two different covers for the new edition. One with tits out.
Quote from: Warthur;878106To be fair, as I understand it the setting of Kult is explicitly dysfunctional; the Qlippoth are plotting against each other, the Sephiroth are too, and when it kicks off everything is going to come crashing down horribly because the thing which imposed order and co-operation on entities which would much rather just fight is gone. So you could almost see that as a feature, not a bug.
The Qlippoth in Kult is more understandable, as in that world they indeed are split up, and so is even the Sephira, as they have proven to choose sides for and against "The Lie".
It is still a mess though, a superficial gathering of entities that do not even share a similar origin, but that is claimed to be the same in some way anyway.
Quote from: Simlasa;878102I wouldn't even be arguing with him if he'd started out with "Well, where I'm from..." rather than some sweeping statement about the revelations of the internet and Dan Brown.
But you're right.
It's particularly silly since we obviously both like the game.
The irony is his eye rolling about "'mhurican arrogance" while making a sweeping statement about such sweeping statements. I admit its a pretty typicsl 'tude to encounter online and hypocritical as Hell (especially when mixed with bitching about "American Exceptionalism. "The USA doesn't equate to the world but (usually western) Europe does!" ) and the unspoken support for it is one of the things that drove me nuts about Tang.
Quote from: Nexus;878103It wasn't something like Faces of Death or Kids at Play" that you had to hunt up in backrooms, weird arthouse cinemas and get from a "friend of a friend".
Faces of Death was pretty common in the video stores here but I've never heard of 'Kids at Play'... do you mean that Troma thing, 'Beware: Children at Play'?
Quote from: Catelf;878111Personally, I understand him, I got the first edition of KULT in swedish less than a year after it came out.
I'm sure for a lot of people it was something new. Not so much for a lot of others... and I've certainly got no clue what was going on in Sweden at the time, though the exchange students I met here all seemed well-adjusted and healthy.
Quote from: Catelf;878111Hellraiser had been out a while, sure, but I was never into those kinds of movies, especially not back then.
The rpg KULT, on the other hand .... was massively intriguing.
I always felt the link that some gamers made between Kult and Hellraiser was overstated. Some of the imagery was lifted from the movie in the supporting art, but then so were movies like Silence of the Lambs and Twin Peaks (and later Se7en). However, Hellraiser didn't make any Judeo-Christian references in it's backstory, and in my view could easily be a Call of Cthulhu scenario with the S&M motif dialled up.
Kult's backstory has more depth in my view as it explored our relationship to the Judeo-Christian myth in relation to a dark and sadistic, postmodern world. The very notion of saying "Judeo-Christian myth" largely covers why it was controversial, of course.
Quote from: Simlasa;878116Faces of Death was pretty common in the video stores here but I've never heard of 'Kids at Play'... do you mean that Troma thing, 'Beware: Children at Play'?
We were a little behind there and "Faces of Death" was voluntarily pulled from shelves in some stores or at you had to specifically ask for it for awhile.
Was the Troma picture that splatterfest movie with kids getting murdered in bizarre over the top ways? I've only seen clips and that was a few decades ago.
Like I said bible belt and all. But I think it goes to show your point since even here Last Temptation of Christ wasn't such a huge deal. Neither was Kult for that matter but it was so far below most people's radar around here that's not surprising (though back in the 80s we had a few small protest marches outside of some local game stores).
Quote from: Nexus;878115The irony is his eye rolling about "'mhurican arrogance" while making a sweeping statement about such sweeping statements.
I didn't even get that he wasn't from the U.S. till he mentioned something about language.
From my own experience people from outside the U.S. generally have a MUCH better knowledge of what's going on in our country than we do about theirs... often a better understanding of our government and history than many 'mhuricans' do. Despite being a 'world power' we ARE commonly (ashamedly) unaware of the rest of the world.
Quote from: Nexus;878118Was the Troma picture that splatterfest movie with kids getting murdered in bizarre over the top ways?
Yeah, that's the one.
Quote from: Simlasa;878121Yeah, that's the one.
Then that would be the one. You couldn't find a copy to save your life for a long time around here and got funny looks for asking.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;878117I always felt the link that some gamers made between Kult and Hellraiser was overstated.
Yeah, I'm not one of those claiming it's 'Hellraiser: The RPG'... just that Hellraiser WAS an influence and it was a widely seen, popular movie. Hellraiser 2 might have been a bigger influence, with characters crossing over into 'Hell' and back.
QuoteHowever, Hellraiser didn't make any Judeo-Christian references in it's backstory, and in my view could easily be a Call of Cthulhu scenario with the S&M motif dialled up.
Well, the term 'cenobite'... references to 'Hell' and 'soul'... and the moral layout of the villains (a sexual explorer and an adultress) were more in the Christian mold than a Lovecraftian one... though definitely of some cosmology that wasn't expressed in the bible. Humans and their souls seemed to be fairly important in Hellraiser's setting.
QuoteKult's backstory has more depth in my view
The Hellraiser movies were never very deep... the comic series got a lot more involved/interesting though. Still nowhere near Kult though.
Hopefully the designers will consider the primary themes they want to address and then create mechanics which force
players to consider those themes when taking actions.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877496As for AW engine, I have a bad feeling about it. After all, to my knowledge there's no successful *.world based game that deals with horror of KULT's level.
The original system didn't really deal with it either though.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877496Sure, there are some hacks or horror-themed playbooks, there's "Tremulus", yet, neither seem to gain much recognition as "AW-driven scary game", which the newest edition of KULT is supposed to be.
Tremulus failed in play for reasons having nothing to do with the AW engine.
Quote from: Warthur;877523In my experience of *World hacks "moves" are extremely broad - much broader than the term implies.
Most @world moves are nothing more than a lexical identification of what players and GMs have been doing all along. Seems that once you give it a name it becomes work and telling you what to do :)
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877685It is crucial to go back in time to truly understand KULT. When it was released times were different, people thought in different ways, RPGs were less mainstream than they are now, things we're accustomed to now were prohibited and so on and so forth.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877685So, no wonder that nowadays KULT isn't as blasphemous as it was back then. Were you to read it, you would probably miss 50% of stuff that made us react with "whoa" upon reading it in years predating y2k.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878080That's well and good, thumbs up for living in tolerant parts of the world, but this doesn't change the way things were back then.
Sadly the only thing that's really changed are the sides. People are just as intolerant of the same shit as they ever were, only now it's liberal gamers instead of conservative evangelicals. In fact, in many ways it's worse now because it's originating from the 'inside'.
Quote from: Warthur;877692Another thing the original Kult did that you couldn't get away with now - plagiarise art. Somewhere in one of my 1E English books is a bit of art which blatantly steals from the poster for the Reanimator movie.
Source (as I kinda collect instances like this)?
Quote from: Future Villain Band;877715I'm interested. The AW port doesn't bother me, because games like Blades in the Dark show how far and deep that can diverge and still produce a great game.
I was just going to mention Blades.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878080Different versions of KULT treat the Illusion in different fashion. Sometimes it's really different plane of existence, a kingdom-prison erected on Malkut's skin, sort of "a cancer" with our whole universe hidden withing, and then it's matching your assumption. Then again, in other occurrences it's more like an augmented reality, superimposed on streets of Metropolis itself.
BTW, this reminds me about Interzone from Burroughs' "Naked Lunch" and the second part of "The Futurological Congress" by St. Lem, which is probably one of best explanation of how the Illusion might work.
Anyway, in the latter approach, there's no "beyond", only different perceptions. Different beings are adjusted to perceive different ranges of reality only, so when hunters "see through the Lie", it means that they see things as they really are - celebrities with clown masks covering their faces, people whose "smartphones" are some sort of parasites, piercing their skulls with small tentacles and sucking dry their souls, monsters roaming slums, pretending to be "merely" violent gang members and so on and so forth. It's possible to hide before such beings from beyond, because to them we're all alike: just filthy, blind and drugged entities focused on totally irrelevant matters, worshiping pieces of trash.
...but they might miss a lot of other details. They don't see what is written on our t-shirts, they don't perceive pictures transmitted via tv, and once you cover yourself with rags, cease to act "differently", you're just another piece of the Illusion. They could've been standing next to their prey unable to recognize it as long as it behaves properly.
This is how I ran Mage: The Ascension.
Hopefully the new system actually does something to invoke this mechanically.
Quote from: Simlasa;878125Yeah, I'm not one of those claiming it's 'Hellraiser: The RPG'... just that Hellraiser WAS an influence and it was a widely seen, popular movie. Hellraiser 2 might have been a bigger influence, with characters crossing over into 'Hell' and back.
Well, the term 'cenobite'... references to 'Hell' and 'soul'... and the moral layout of the villains (a sexual explorer and an adultress) were more in the Christian mold than a Lovecraftian one... though definitely of some cosmology that wasn't expressed in the bible. Humans and their souls seemed to be fairly important in Hellraiser's setting.
Leviathan (an Old Testament reference) was also part of Hellraiser storyline.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;878131Sadly the only thing that's really changed are the sides. People are just as intolerant of the same shit as they ever were, only now it's liberal gamers instead of conservative evangelicals. In fact, in many ways it's worse now because it's originating from the 'inside'.
True, true. It's like we... I'm not sure how to put that in correct words - move the field of our tolerance instead of expanding it. I mean, the more we accept, the more we prohibit. Who would've think 30 years ago that people are gonna fight over such trivial things as what some drunk guy says in his own bedroom...
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;878131This is how I ran Mage: The Ascension.
Hopefully the new system actually does something to invoke this mechanically.
WoD merged with KULT pretty well, and I've often hear about attempts to build unified setting. Certain individual named Paul Beakley managed to write quite coherent vision titled "Jail of Night", divided on sections, each connecting different part of WoD to KULT.
If you're not familiar with it, here's some version of it (http://www.darksites.com/souls/horror/parchment/redtint/mage.txt), but it's not the final product.
Quote from: Nexus;878110Don't worry about it. We're just poor dumb 'mhuricans trying to speak on things out simple minds just can't comphrend. So arrogant of us, to have different notions than our innate betters! :rolleyes:
No, Compadre. You're poor, dumb Mhurrican if you insist that everything should be reduced to your own neighborhood, even if it was clearly stated that it's not about it, and in spite of being presented with the proof for that. In fact, you're not even poor, dumb Mhurrican, but merely "dumb".
To his credit, even Pippi agreed that he missed that part, but didn't deny it.
So, I dunno. Perhaps take a few deep breaths, cool down a bit? They say that anger and beauty don't get along too well and you wouldn't want to become less beautiful creature, would you?. ;]
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;878131Sadly the only thing that's really changed are the sides. People are just as intolerant of the same shit as they ever were, only now it's liberal gamers instead of conservative evangelicals. In fact, in many ways it's worse now because it's originating from the 'inside'.
I'm pretty sure the conservative evangelicals are still plenty intolerant, but their numbers are dwindling.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878135To his credit, even Pippi agreed that he missed that part, but didn't deny it.
I think we were talking past each other because we both perceived the other to be over-generalizing... and I started off with the mistaken assumption that Jester was in the U.S.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;878131Source (as I kinda collect instances like this)?
I think it's about sourcebook titled "Legions of Darkness". It contained a truckload of "borrowings" (ahem, ahem) from many different sources.
For example:
(http://s29.postimg.org/n3nvbujyv/kult.jpg)
Is obviously taken from...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u2ddECxfzeM/U4isstbwEXI/AAAAAAAADBI/tR7-aAnaKDs/s1600/f7c42510.jpg)
Quote from: Simlasa;878140I'm pretty sure the conservative evangelicals are still plenty intolerant, but their numbers are dwindling.
I think we were talking past each other because we both perceived the other to be over-generalizing... and I started off with the mistaken assumption thar Jester was in the U.S.
For the record: I did enjoy that exchange of thoughts and hold absolutely no grudge or anything. ;]
Quote from: Simlasa;878140I'm pretty sure the conservative evangelicals are still plenty intolerant, but their numbers are dwindling.
I'll be really interested in seeing what changes come about in this new edition and what the reception is. So much has changed, particularly in pop culture. I mean, Supernatural, a popular tv show has ideas that are as "transgressive" as Kult. Then there's things like Preacher, Constantine, the new series Lucifer, etc.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878142For the record: I did enjoy that exchange of thoughts and hold absolutely no grudge or anything. ;]
Yes, it was fun.
Quote from: Nexus;878143I'll be really interested in seeing what changes come about in this new edition and what the reception is. So much has changed, particularly in pop culture. I mean, Supernatural, a popular tv show has ideas that are as "transgressive" as Kult.
Yeah, Supernatural has the whole 'God has left the building and the angels are monsters' thing going on. If they want to drum up an uproar they'd have to go deep Carcosa or else start in on the sacred cows of the SJW crowd.
Re: borrowed art - yeah, I think it was Legions of Darkness - one of the chapter headings in there.
Re: Hellraiser: I think the big point of connection there is that in both settings the extremes of experience can both open the door to new realities and reshape you into something you would not have previously recognised as human.
Quote from: Warthur;878373Re: borrowed art - yeah, I think it was Legions of Darkness - one of the chapter headings in there.
Re: Hellraiser: I think the big point of connection there is that in both settings the extremes of experience can both open the door to new realities and reshape you into something you would not have previously recognised as human.
Whole concept of Purgatories governed by Nepharites seem like direct steal from Hellraiser. ;]
As for the image, I got it!
(http://s18.postimg.org/x8u3wym6h/kulte.jpg)
(http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10500000/Re-wallpapers-re-animator-movies-10539503-1024-902.jpg)
And a little bonus. :hmm:
(http://h.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagecache/inline-large/inline/2015/08/3050211-inline-i-1-kanye-west-reanimator-author-joshua-chaplinsky-puts-a-lovecraftian-spin-on-yeezy-season.jpg)
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2orh6y7cg1ql8zdio1_1280.jpg)
TBH, I've never perceived it in terms of "plagiarism". Not because it wasn't, but because back in those times we weren't flipping over intellectual property as much as we do nowadays. I think we didn't give that much shit about many things back there.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878395TBH, I've never perceived it in terms of "plagiarism". Not because it wasn't, but because back in those times we weren't flipping over intellectual property as much as we do nowadays. I think we didn't give that much shit about many things back there.
I think it's more because back then it was markedly less likely that anyone buying a product like Legions of Darkness - a supplement for a niche game line in a niche genre of games in a niche industry - would notice the connection and comment on it in a public forum.
I am actually looking forward to this release, despite my dislike for AW system. The reasons are simple. First of all, as noted before, the AW system is supposedly heavily modified, beyond the normal understanding of moves - it's used in such a way that you need to roll only once for a scene/situation to handle it.
The second hope of mine ties to this one actually. When I run mystery games, I like to feature strong horror. And nothing breaks the mood at the game table when I try to scare the players (which is, let's face it, a rather hard task in itself, so a GM needs every bit of help they can get) as dice rolling. It reminds us too much of the fourth wall, of the fact that we are ultimately just playing a game, distracting from action at hand. So if I have a system which can handle the whole combat situation with one roll (maybe even done by me, a referee, beforehand), I definitely want to give it a try for horror games.
Quote from: Warthur;878399I think it's more because back then it was markedly less likely that anyone buying a product like Legions of Darkness - a supplement for a niche game line in a niche genre of games in a niche industry - would notice the connection and comment on it in a public forum.
Good observation.
I admit to not being familiar with the PBtA system, so it remains to be seen how it'll work with Kult.
Not that the original system was a masterpiece of design. "Workmanlike" is the nicest thing I can say about it. But again, I never messed e.g. with the magic system.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878135It's like we... I'm not sure how to put that in correct words - move the field of our tolerance instead of expanding it. I mean, the more we accept, the more we prohibit.
Very eloquently put.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878135So, I dunno. Perhaps take a few deep breaths, cool down a bit?
Wait, there was genuine hostility and I missed it?
Damn my aspergers.
Quote from: Simlasa;878140I started off with the mistaken assumption that Jester was in the U.S.
What, you couldn't tell by his accent?
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878141It contained a truckload of "borrowings" (ahem, ahem) from many different sources.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878395As for the image, I got it!
Thanks for taking the effort to do this.
Quote from: Nexus;878143I'll be really interested in seeing what changes come about in this new edition and what the reception is. So much has changed, particularly in pop culture.
Indeed, especially since so much of Kult is based on transgression.
Quote from: Nexus;878143I mean, Supernatural, a popular tv show has ideas that are as "transgressive" as Kult.
The problem is that Supernatural took these transgressive ideas and normalized them. In other words, it made the extraordinary ordinary as opposed to the other way around, and this just got worse as the show went on. Now Dean's flirting with God's sister, and I'm pretty sure Lucifer has a Facebook page.
Then again, nobody is watching it for the metaphysics.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;878432Very eloquently put.
(...)
What, you couldn't tell by his accent?
(...)
Wait, there was genuine hostility and I missed it?
Thanks. I assume it's obvious that I'm non-native English speaker (hooray for euphemisms) the moment I open my mouth, so it's at least partially my fault for not making it clear I'm from a dumbfucktown on the outskirts of the civilized world. Then again, no harm done, I hope. ;]
Quote from: JesterRaiin;877685That being said: take alien horror, uncertainty and the possibility of your PC dying in horrible, horrible fashion from Call of Cthulhu. Add magical aspect, multilayered world and sanity from Unknown Armies. Mix it with reality of supernatural beings hiding in shadows, conspiring in a power struggle that avoids the eye of dreaming mankind, from World Of Darkness. Add spicy possibility of traveling through different layers of reality as seen in Don't Lose Your Head. Cook it, wait patiently, in the meantime watch a movie by Lynch, Cronnenberg or other similar director.
Serve.
That's KULT in a nutshell, according to your truly. ;]
This sounds awesome. I owned the original... when it came out. I didn't think it was that awesome. Was it this awesome? How did I miss this? Must re-examine...
Quote from: tenbones;878463This sounds awesome. I owned the original... when it came out. I didn't think it was that awesome. Was it this awesome? How did I miss this? Must re-examine...
Game is only as awesome as people playing it...
And that's how today's episode of "The banality you find in the Net" began.
Ahem. ;]
More seriously: I think that's how pretty much everyone I know play/have been playing KULT. The testimonies of people from the Internet seem to support it too.
...Providing you tweak the ruleset, or exchange it for something less cumbersome. It's really not that well.
If you're interested, here's a campaign journal (http://nyboria.de/mol_journal.htm) written by a fellow KULTist.
Quote from: tenbones;878463This sounds awesome. I owned the original... when it came out. I didn't think it was that awesome. Was it this awesome? How did I miss this? Must re-examine...
It was that awesome... but a bit buried under a veneer that might have suggested, on a cursory look, that it was more about guns and trenchcoats... 90s era 'edginess'.
That's kinda what I remembered about it...
Seriously, I need to give this another look. (not sure about this new system tho)... but I think I have the old one sitting in my archives somewhere...
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878095On top of that, I'm not sure why you're putting any emphasis on "Hellraiser", and use it as argument, when I'm pointing out that ideas presented by KULT challenged Christian ideas, and that wasn't very popular thing to do "back then" (once again: back then).
In many places it still isn't. And for many people it still isn't.
I think most of this way "back then" stuff has less to do with what was available, acceptable, or commonly known way back then and far more to do with what any particular speaker knew about, accepted, or found commonly discussed back then. So it is mostly an age/experiential/generational thing.
Personally I don't recall ever seeing the game Kult, but weird conspiracies have been around longer than my entire life e.g. Rozwell, UFOology, Erik von Daniken, Big Foot, the Illuminati, etc. I'm no religious scholar, but I've been aware of the Gnostic texts since at least the early 1980s. The three books of
The Illuminatus! Trilogy by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson were first published in 1975. The trilogy included all sorts of nutty conspiracy stuff mixed with gnostic texts and bizarre deconstructivist theory and silly jokes. As I recall, the collection was recommended to me by a good friend who was into Gnostic writings even back then. Books like Elaine Pagels' classic, The Gnostic Gospels (New York: Random House, 1978) were certainly available in dead tree form (http://gnosis.org/readlist.htm#1) they just were not part of the Dan Brown pop culture. Dan Brown himself referenced the earlier 1980s international bestseller
The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail. It and it's 1986 sequel,
The Messianic Legacy claimed that (in accord with certain Gnostic texts) the historical Jesus married Mary Magdalene, had children, those children or their descendants emigrated to southern France, intermarried with families that would become the Merovingian dynasty, whose special claim to the throne of France is championed today by a secret society called the Priory of Sion.
So while such things were not as easily available as the Internet has since made everything, all those ideas and images were around well before the 1990s. But they may or may not have been part of anyone person's consciousness then, just as they still aren't part of some people's consciousness now.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;878080Different versions of KULT treat the Illusion in different fashion. Sometimes it's really different plane of existence, a kingdom-prison erected on Malkut's skin, sort of "a cancer" with our whole universe hidden withing, and then it's matching your assumption. Then again, in other occurrences it's more like an augmented reality, superimposed on streets of Metropolis itself.
BTW, this reminds me about Interzone from Burroughs' "Naked Lunch" and the second part of "The Futurological Congress" by St. Lem, which is probably one of best explanation of how the Illusion might work.
Anyway, in the latter approach, there's no "beyond", only different perceptions. Different beings are adjusted to perceive different ranges of reality only, so when hunters "see through the Lie", it means that they see things as they really are - celebrities with clown masks covering their faces, people whose "smartphones" are some sort of parasites, piercing their skulls with small tentacles and sucking dry their souls,
Dollar bills that read "THIS IS YOUR GOD".
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;878545Dollar bills that read "THIS IS YOUR GOD".
JG
(http://truthstreammedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/they-live-obey-control-data.jpg)
(https://whispersystems.org/blog/images/theylive-messages.png)
(http://img02.deviantart.net/38fe/i/2012/024/1/5/dollar__they_live____we_sleep__by_kyoshihidestencils-d4nhgi2.png)
Quote from: Simlasa;878149Yeah, Supernatural has the whole 'God has left the building and the angels are monsters' thing going on. If they want to drum up an uproar they'd have to go deep Carcosa or else start in on the sacred cows of the SJW crowd.
There's some directions they could go but most of them seem pretty fraught with peril. For instance while most are pretty numbed to violence by exposure (Hell you can see bloody murders and gruesome autopsies on TV during prime time now) sex is still a pretty verboten topic to explore too deeply but you risk being labeled prurient or juvenile if you go to far in that direction.
It feels like generally people are allot more thin skinned in gamer culture than when Kult was released and less willing to play What if?" with some topics (some of this is probably personal nostalgia) and poking at too many Sacred Cows (particular "SJW" ones) is good way to get trashed before you start.
Its a minefield, that's for sure.
Quote from: Nexus;879069There's some directions they could go but most of them seem pretty fraught with peril. For instance while most are pretty numbed to violence by exposure (Hell you can see bloody murders and gruesome autopsies on TV during prime time now) sex is still a pretty verboten topic to explore too deeply but you risk being labeled prurient or juvenile if you go to far in that direction.
It feels like generally people are allot more thin skinned in gamer culture than when Kult was released and less willing to play What if?" with some topics (some of this is probably personal nostalgia) and poking at too many Sacred Cows (particular "SJW" ones) is good way to get trashed before you start.
Its a minefield, that's for sure.
It's not that much more of a minefield than it was back then - on one hand, you will get both barrels as conservatives and SJWs might tear you a new one. On the other, there are probably less Christians on the prowl about RPGs nowadays as well - and remember Dogma and Da Vinci Code boycotts?
Kult was never a game for the religiously conservative any way. It's meant to be controversial, and unless the people making them are completely retarded, they know what horse they've saddled.
As for the actual "will it be at all controversial nowadays, will it manage to push buttons?" - the devil is in the detail. You only need to compare SJG's version of In Nomine to the French one to see how literally same topic, 2 different approaches, can provide a radically different game. With the renaissance of gore/splatterporn in early 2000s, I think it's safe to say the game'll provide.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;877715I'm interested. The AW port doesn't bother me, because games like Blades in the Dark show how far and deep that can diverge and still produce a great game.
Yep, Blades in the Dark is a nice example. Take a look at Mutant Year Zero, for another *world inspired game.
Quote from: Itachi;879090Take a look at Mutant Year Zero, for another *world inspired game.
I'm sorry, are you SURE you're talking about the correct game? Way I see it, it's nowhere similar to *.world engine running ones.
AW is an interesting system. Even if I were not to like it, it might still be a good thing for the setting to be implemented with PBTA, given its relative popularity. If the hack is popular enough, maybe the original could be brought back.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;879093I'm sorry, are you SURE you're talking about the correct game? Way I see it, it's nowhere similar to *.world engine running ones.
Don't have the time now but I can find the interview where the designers say so. Also, if you take a look at it, notice how the classes look a lot like playbooks, with focus on relationships, special abilities that resemble moves, etc. And just reminded another great *world inspired game: Beyond the Wall. This one a neat fusion of OSR and PbtA.
*Edit* hey, that facebook page is really nice, huh ? Judging by the concept art over there the book will be gorgeous.
Quote from: Itachi;879102Don't have the time now but I can find the interview where the designers say so.
Please do. I see no direct influence, and I'd like to learn about it. :]
JesterRaiin, take a look..
http://obskures.de/2015/mutant-year-zero-interview-tomas-haerenstam/
Though to be frank this was not the one I'd seen before. Perhaps it was a thread on RPGnet with the author, can't remember now.
Anyway, I'm getting tired of *world hacks, because I think the rules possibilities are getting exhausted at this point. What I like to see is exactly these games which take just some cues from it and move on to create their own thing. That's why the new Kult got me so excited.
Quote from: Itachi;879307JesterRaiin, take a look..
http://obskures.de/2015/mutant-year-zero-interview-tomas-haerenstam/
Though to be frank this was not the one I'd seen before. Perhaps it was a thread on RPGnet with the author, can't remember now.
Thank you. Gonna read it later, at work. ;]
Quote from: Itachi;879307Anyway, I'm getting tired of *world hacks, because I think the rules possibilities are getting exhausted at this point. What I like to see is exactly these games which take just some cues from it and move on to create their own thing. That's why the new Kult got me so excited.
Yep, especially since there are cases of x-influenced games that are better than the original works. :]
However, the greatest problem I have with *.world games, meaning
no dice rolling for GM seems to be present in whatever variation of the original ruleset the devs are planning to use.
Fuck, I like to roll dice in KULT...
Quote from: JesterRaiin;879316However, the greatest problem I have with *.world games, meaning no dice rolling for GM seems to be present in whatever variation of the original ruleset the devs are planning to use.
I want to be excited about this game, but that "GM never rolls" shit kills my interest dead.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;879341I want to be excited about this game, but that "GM never rolls" shit kills my interest dead.
How hard would it be to just ignore that part? Would it affect anything for the GM to just take up any adversary rolls?
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;879341I want to be excited about this game, but that "GM never rolls" shit kills my interest dead.
Quote from: Simlasa;879344How hard would it be to just ignore that part? Would it affect anything for the GM to just take up any adversary rolls?
That's the problem - everything is a bit cryptic at this point, so there's no telling just how exactly it does look like and whether it might be bypassed without avoiding "Domino effect" and such.
I'm no stranger to "GM doesn't roll" rulesets, (or diceless for that matter, AMBER, ftw!) however in certain cases - KULT is one - I really love to be affected by the randomness, feel the tension coming from unpredictability & so on, and so forth.
Though my predictions regarding the outcome aren't exactly very bright right now, I just hope it will turn for better and everything will somehow work out, especially since @Itachi pointed out that AW-influenced games might differ considerably from typical hacks.
Finger crossed.
I would be far more interested in a straight-up reprint of the original, warts and all.
I want to see the obscure 90's cult horror movie I missed the first time around, not the big-budget CGI remake, so to say.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;879403I would be far more interested in a straight-up reprint of the original, warts and all.
I want to see the obscure 90's cult horror movie I missed the first time around, not the big-budget CGI remake, so to say.
Kether's Lictor, Prince Rainier Xavier von Habsburg likes this postDamn, I'd gladly pay my monthly salary for setting-only, ruleset-less release featuring material from all editions. Ehhhhhh...
Quote from: Simlasa;879344How hard would it be to just ignore that part? Would it affect anything for the GM to just take up any adversary rolls?
In most PbtA titles this would break the game, as the effects from opposition are subsumed in the player rolls by default.
Apocalypse world? Barf.
Small update...
Hardcover version of the book is supposed to cost at least 80$.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BKrfwlfXg_Q/TnRzWKs5q6I/AAAAAAAAEcs/dxCJ9fvlUP0/s640/ApocalypseNow_195Pyxurz.jpg)
I get the feeling that devs want to add as much alternative sources of horror to this edition as possible. :D
Quote from: JesterRaiin;880189Small update...
Hardcover version of the book is supposed to cost at least 80$.
And they're going with the 'limited edition cover' ploy... collectible editions ala DCC.
It's like they know this is only going to sell to the hardest of the hardcore collectors, so why not go for broke and milk the cow dry.
Meanwhile, Unknown Armies is returning in a multi-volume slipcase edition.
NEXT UP: A new edition of The Whispering Vault. Now based on the card draw system from Candyland and featuring a series of collectible foil covers as well as limited edition 'Know Your Stalkers' cards and TWV recipe book.
Quote from: Simlasa;880242Meanwhile, Unknown Armies is returning in a multi-volume slipcase edition.
.
Where did you read of this?
EDIT: Nevermind, I found the Purple Pit thread via Google. Shame that the odious Cam Banks is involved.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;880273Shame that the odious Cam Banks is involved.
Why is that ? if you don't mind me asking
Quote from: Itachi;880283Why is that ? if you don't mind me asking
Infamous politically-correct Internet sourpuss.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;880273Where did you read of this?
EDIT: Nevermind, I found the Purple Pit thread via Google. Shame that the odious Cam Banks is involved.
They announced it on the Atlas Games site, of which Cam Banks is the lead creative manager these days. The game itself is designed by Greg Stolze however.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;880189Small update...
Hardcover version of the book is supposed to cost at least 80$.
I really don't see how this basic cost for a full colour hardback book, with original art, is surprising.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;880287I really don't see how this basic cost for a full colour hardback book, with original art, is surprising.
My bet is on the difference in salaries, man. ;]
Quote from: TrippyHippy;880287I really don't see how this basic cost for a full colour hardback book, with original art, is surprising.
Surprising? For a boutique product, not really.
Likely to keep me from buying it, especially when I doubt I've got any interest beyond the setting for use with a different system? Very very likely.
....aaaaaand the last update prior to proper KS campaign: devs reduced the price for hardcover books to 60$.
While it's still considerably high price for a single core book, it seems this concerns only special, limited, collective editions (there will be many variants, including censored/uncensored cover and some still will be priced well over 60$), and there's a possibility to get either softcover and "typical" hardcover versions at reduced cost.
In other news: while the human skin cover project is abandoned, there will be edition covered in "normal", animal skin. No news about the Iron Book variant (it's inside, KULT-lore specific stuff).
And that'd be it, I think.
I seriously need to get around to writing a modern Occult RPG that would kick all the above's asses.
Quote from: RPGPundit;881215I seriously need to get around to writing a modern Occult RPG that would kick all the above's asses.
That would be interesting.
Quote from: RPGPundit;881215I seriously need to get around to writing a modern Occult RPG that would kick all the above's asses.
I'd be more than interested in reading/playing that. ;]
Quote from: JesterRaiin;880756....aaaaaand the last update prior to proper KS campaign: devs reduced the price for hardcover books to 60$.
While it's still considerably high price for a single core book, it seems this concerns only special, limited, collective editions (there will be many variants, including censored/uncensored cover and some still will be priced well over 60$), and there's a possibility to get either softcover and "typical" hardcover versions at reduced cost.
In other news: while the human skin cover project is abandoned, there will be edition covered in "normal", animal skin. No news about the Iron Book variant (it's inside, KULT-lore specific stuff).
And that'd be it, I think.
I'm in for the basic vanilla rulebook. We'll see if there are any add-ons worth getting.
The $2,500 Demiurge pledge got taken up rather quickly but if you hurry, the other $2,5k Astaroth slot is still open.
I'm a bit wary about the very low pledge goal (about $10,000) for what appear to be high end quality books. If this KS doesn't bring in the numbers of backers, then I fear another KS that will run into financial trouble. Edit: oh, wait. Nevermind. It's a print on demand project.
Quote from: Godfather Punk;881322I'm in for the basic vanilla rulebook. We'll see if there are any add-ons worth getting.
The $2,500 Demiurge pledge got taken up rather quickly but if you hurry, the other $2,5k Astaroth slot is still open.
I'm a bit wary about the very low pledge goal (about $10,000) for what appear to be high end quality books. If this KS doesn't bring in the numbers of backers, then I fear another KS that will run into financial trouble.
I'm currently negotiating my KULT budget with my wife. Things are looking... kind of... ummm... :idunno:
I don't really know what to think about it. Either there's quite a wealthy "no fucks given" KULT fan, or developers orchestrated it in an attempt to create "Demiurge edition" urban legend.
This or that.... 2,5k $ :jaw-dropping:
I'm in for the main book and player book. Contemplating the 'Bible Edition' add on.
My understanding is that the game will differ from * World enough to suit my style. I also am very curious about any changes to the setting.
Glad this is getting a relaunch, if only to bring in new blood into the game's deep setting. As for the rest, only time will tell.
I painstakingly collected all (most, might be missing an item or two) that was published for 1st Edition US of Kult. Cracked the books open again last night in anticipation of this new edition.
There is a trend of Nostalgic relaunch of RPGs from the nineties on Kickstarter, has anyone else noticed?
Yeah, Feng Shui, 7th Sea, LoneWolf..
Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;881339I also am very curious about any changes to the setting.
Glad this is getting a relaunch, if only to bring in new blood into the game's deep setting. As for the rest, only time will tell.
Same here, same here. ;)
Devs already introduced 9/11 to the lore (Tifany Reeder mentions this event), so I think we might witness something entirely new. I'd be glad to see a bit different set of spheres of influence for Archons/Death Angels and the clear answer whether Metropolis is "here", only veiled, or in some entirely different place.
Not gonna happen, but still...
Quote from: JesterRaiin;881359I'd be glad to see a bit different set of spheres of influence for Archons/Death Angels and the clear answer whether Metropolis is "here", only veiled, or in some entirely different place.
Not gonna happen, but still...
Those unanswered questions can be fun to toy with when they become options, especially when running the game with players familiar with the cosmology. I think it's ok for a game background to say "we don't know (where the Demiurge went), but here are some of what this or that character believes." Makes things interesting.
"This is my version of KULT, your understanding may be different, etc."
I tend to give that disclaimer to players in most of my games, simply for the fact that I don't enjoy being told I'm wrong about this or that background detail. Won't take it personally, but I hate when it takes away from the action/immersion/game.
Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;881366Those unanswered questions can be fun to toy with when they become options, especially when running the game with players familiar with the cosmology. I think it's ok for a game background to say "we don't know (where the Demiurge went), but here are some of what this or that character believes." Makes things interesting.
"This is my version of KULT, your understanding may be different, etc."
I tend to give that disclaimer to players in most of my games, simply for the fact that I don't enjoy being told I'm wrong about this or that background detail. Won't take it personally, but I hate when it takes away from the action/immersion/game.
Ah yes, the sweet taste of uncertainty and the possibility of discovering something entirely different to what one expects, be it a player and the Storyteller alike. I enjoy it in Call of Cthulhu, I appreciate it in Trail of Cthulhu, I love it in KULT.
That's one of reasons I fear *.World conversion - the limitations imposed on randomness (courtesy of reduced dice rolling) might change the game into less unpredictable experience. Ah well. We shall see.
There will be blood anyway. :)
I've backed it for a leatherette cover, and I may get the little bible add on too. I hope the campaign is efficient and we don't end up waiting years with delays as other well known horror RPGs have done....
Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;881366Those unanswered questions can be fun to toy with when they become options, especially when running the game with players familiar with the cosmology. I think it's ok for a game background to say "we don't know (where the Demiurge went), but here are some of what this or that character believes." Makes things interesting.
I've found I prefer that in most cases. If for no other reasons that its all too easy for potential players (or me if I want to play) to stumble across those answers. If they're presented as possibilities, no spoilers. I know allot of people don't care but I hate "playing stupid" or asking my players to so I like to avoid it whenever possible.
Quote"This is my version of KULT, your understanding may be different, etc."
I tend to give that disclaimer to players in most of my games, simply for the fact that I don't enjoy being told I'm wrong about this or that background detail. Won't take it personally, but I hate when it takes away from the action/immersion/game.
I give a similar disclaimer. I usually do change minor and major aspects of a published setting (or honestly, just forget specific details and wing it for the purposes of keeping the game moving) so in the rare times I do used published materials and settings its never totally loyal to "canon". I think its polite to let people know what they're in for and some players really irate when canon isn't adhered too precisely. Best to defuse that bomb early even though I've had some player walk over it.
Quote from: TrippyHippy;881466I've backed it for a leatherette cover, and I may get the little bible add on too. I hope the campaign is efficient and we don't end up waiting years with delays as other well known horror RPGs have done....
Devs claim that Swedish version is already done, so it's more a matter of translation rather than building it from the scratch. Kickstarter campaign is already founded, so I think there's a good chance for rather quick arrival.
So far, official date is (unless I'm mistaking) December, this year.
Instinctively I'm kinda disgusted by the fact that this Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1037361623/kult-divinity-lost-horror-roleplaying-game-rpg) is so driven by 'alternative covers'. It also seems the designers have no understanding of how system enables or compromises mood, despite the PbtA heritage. It also feels more Eli Roth than Clive Barker.
Still I pledged, so we'll see.
So, any preview of the rules yet ?
Quote from: Itachi;883720So, any preview of the rules yet ?
Only if you're a Viking. If I understand correctly, devs are supposed to host a session during one of -cons in Sweden.
This is the 2nd kickstarter I've been seriously tempted to back.
Quote from: Nexus;883766This is the 2nd kickstarter I've been seriously tempted to back.
I'm still very suspicious regarding the mechanic's choice, but I think I'm gonna support the game for the purpose of the setting and imagery.
btw, OT: you wouldn't have anything in common with the amazing NEXUS:The Infinite City Rpg?
I understand that KULT won't get much attention here and that it might be perceived as an attempt to shill some specific game, but I'll take the risk and announce that The friggin' Black Madonna has been successfully KSed.
The scenario, so far unavailable for anyone aside of Vikings will be, for the very first time in KULT's history, translated to English and released alongside the new, upgraded version of the game.
What's the scenario all about? Nobody can tell, since Northlanders aren't too eager to betray details, and that makes the game kind of "Holy Grail" and myth among all KULT's players.
The adventure is supposed to start in war-torn Leningrad, during the famous siege that took many lives. It seems the story might be partially inspired by the creation of famous Stalingrad Madonna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalingrad_Madonna), but that's about it.
(http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/5451127/images/1250261896874.jpg)
I'm excited for it!
The Kult campaigns I've come across are quite bizarre (Taroticum, Judas Grail) but I've always been especially intrigued by the Black Madonna.
Can't wait!
I was unimpressed (https://refereeingandreflection.wordpress.com/2015/01/26/referees-bookshelf-adventures-of-1st-edition-kult/) by the two adventures that got translated for the 1st English edition of Kult, but the Black Madonna I find intriguing - people hype it up so much that I wonder whether it was a bungle on the part of Metropolis not to make it the first adventure translated.
Apparently, the manuscript for an English translation of Black Madonna was actually prepared, but it never got released, so hopefully the stretch goal will involve updating that rather than having to do the slow work of translation from scratch.
Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;886911The Kult campaigns I've come across are quite bizarre (Taroticum, Judas Grail) but I've always been especially intrigued by the Black Madonna.
Quote from: Warthur;886915I was unimpressed by the two adventures that got translated for the 1st English edition of Kult, but the Black Madonna I find intriguing - people hype it up so much that I wonder whether it was a bungle on the part of Metropolis not to make it the first adventure translated.
I find the majority of official adventures pretty boring - while they have some interesting parts, they are also full of bullshit along the lines of "
so, the avatar of nigh omnipotent uber-god engages into a negotiation with you and agrees to pay x, but no more than y $$$ for the one-of-a-kind artifact you possess".
This is highly unacceptable in my book.
However, the Black Madonna... Yep. I'd cease to drink alcohol for a whole month to read it and finally learn what the f... it's all about.
I actually liked Judas Grail very much, but of course it's a linear investigative adventure (it was the 90s, after all, plus it is very hard to write an investigation that's not linear, at least in aprts). Fallen Angels appear good to me as standalones. Black Madonna however is this spokenlegend in Kult communities. I won't be surprised if it's actually way, way overhyped, but it is a nice touch - like if you'd be running D&D 6e Kickstarter, and promised Village of Hommlet Remake.
You know what, guys ? Black Madonna has been translated in French by le 7ème cercle and I am pretty most of those interested by it will found that it does not live up to the hype ...
By the way, the cover makes much more sense there than on Legions of Darkness.
Quote from: yabaziou;887135You know what, guys ? Black Madonna has been translated in French by le 7ème cercle and I am pretty most of those interested by it will found that it does not live up to the hype ...
Damn Frenchies... They too are part of worldwide conspiracy! :D
I think KULT's urban legend status (well, sort of) is both its strength and weakness. Stories I have been told, gossips I've heard - the reality turned to be very different.
I suspect the Black Madonna won't be any different. Good piece of writing, definitely something worth reading, but not that awesome as it was supposed to be. ;)
The conspiracy runs deeper ... I think that le 7ème Cercle has translated all the original material for Kult even such weird things like Echoes from Eons featuring Messiah himself !
Quote from: yabaziou;887168The conspiracy runs deeper ... I think that le 7ème Cercle has translated all the original material for Kult even such weird things like Echoes from Eons featuring Messiah himself !
French Conspiracy: it's official. They know where Demiurge is.