Quote from: Mark Plemmons;273080Wow, you really didn't like the #90s issues, huh?  

wow. almost sixty issues ago.
Makes me tired thinking about it.

The Hackmaster game was made to give the feel of the comic strip so it could go in any direction for laughs. Why did they take on such a less humorous tone (I don't know if I can say serious) after a few books? I think I was up to WHITE DOOM MOUNTAIN when it didn't seem funny for quite a few of these and I fell off the wagon. Heh, I recall some people were dead set that this was the second coming, was that what it was? Perhaps the designers were taking it too seriously as the need for a working game outweighed the humor?

The referee, player and monster books still give me a laugh but the adventures and class books seemed to have lost the funniness on the road.

Sorry for the digression but I figured I'd ask as its somewhat in the zone....

Humor is something the game doesn't need to force.  If the players find the comics funny, trust me, they'll put in LOADS of their own humor.  Forcing humor into the game beyond what it already had would make it a farce, a shtick, a gag.  People already treat it as a "one-off gag" game, when it is a seriously well designed (if cumbersome in the extreme) game.

I think another issue I have with KoDT is that the joke has run thin.  The most recent issue I cared more about the Hard 8 storyline than I did the actual Knights.  Its been that way for a while.  

The characters really haven't grown much and Brian & Bob are so intensely dislikable I just get angry.  Their antics aren't funny anymore.  Seeing a pair of game destroying tools every issue for a good 15 years has run its course.  I'd rather see them with the equally dislikable Black Hands and the kid nerd and the gay guy with the wheelchair switch over to the Knights' table.  The jerks go to where they belong and the nice if somewhat screwed up guys have a place where they aren't insulted every other panel.

Back in the day KoDT was new and I wasn't getting much RPing in so the cool sounding adventures being discussed even if they never happened that way were an RPG campaign by proxy.

Now its just getting to the point where I see a pair of assholes in one group and a trio in the other ruining some decent people's evenings every issue they appear and its just pissing me off.

Even in a humor strip Brian is a complete douchebag and no sane person would ever put up with his nonsense for that long.  First time some gamer took a swing at me or flipped my table and his ass would be on the street, with police assistance if necessary.  Hell, I didn't deal with a guy yelling at me very well, and the only time I personally got physical due to a game I was reminded how dumb it was and I myself still beat myself up over it!  (And it was just a light push on my way out the door.  PKing my character AND giving me a shit eating grin?  FUCK.  YOU.  Of course the PKer fell out of a mooring hatch on a ship into the ocean one time while he was smoking a cigarette so he was never the brightest bulb in the box.   But I digress..)

I guess there are more reasons for me to stop reading KoDT than to stay.  Ill probably give it to 150 to either get awesome again or just for old time's sake then I will move on as to not be like those comic fans who bitch and moan because their favorite comic has been crapped on as is Marvel and DC's wont for the last 8 years yet still keep on buying.

I'll have to vote with my dollars.  

Quote from: Gene Weigel;273585The Hackmaster game was made to give the feel of the comic strip so it could go in any direction for laughs. Why did they take on such a less humorous tone (I don't know if I can say serious) after a few books? I think I was up to WHITE DOOM MOUNTAIN when it didn't seem funny for quite a few of these and I fell off the wagon. Heh, I recall some people were dead set that this was the second coming, was that what it was? Perhaps the designers were taking it too seriously as the need for a working game outweighed the humor?

The referee, player and monster books still give me a laugh but the adventures and class books seemed to have lost the funniness on the road.

Sorry for the digression but I figured I'd ask as its somewhat in the zone....

all I can say is we sold 20,000 copies of the core books and a butt load of supporting material. HM was very very good to us. Backstock was moving respectable well right up til the license prevented us from selling it.

Even with HM5 fans can't seem to agree if it should be silly, serious, somewhere in between. Not every who came to HackMaster had the same tastes/likes. So we simply went with what we ourselves wanted to see in the game and hoped for the best.

At the end of the day we tend to make games we we enjoy and hope that's enough. So far it's been working fairly well for us.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;273781I'll have to vote with my dollars.  

As you should. I've been telling readers that for years. I certainly don't want a pissed off reader spending five bucks each month and regretting his purchase.

KODT can't be all things to all people.

We monitor readership closely of course. Only way you can be sure if you're doing a good job or not.

Thanks for the replies.

The humor seekers perhaps were supplanted, etc., etc., etc...

The humor was very funny in the "core books".

Can I just say that I would have liked to have seen the 2e D&D type material to have really gotten mauled by parody? It seems to have been avoided in favor of poking OD&D/AD&D but perhaps it was too soon for that as it was freshly defunct and a lot of contributors/designers seemed to be still be taking it seriously and using formats (class expansions, etc.) as a means of production instead of giving it a good "rogering". For example, if the class expansions negated all the abilities in a "catch 22" that would've really summed up 2e in humorous way. Another humorous approach might be the blandness of late 1e/2e (i.e. entire books with no real game content, etc.). of course both of those wouldn't click with people who were just using it to game! Perhaps, if there is ever another edition they can then use the opposite approach and have bestiaries full of harmless, ordinary and "misunderstood" creatures that was rampant in that 2e era!

Thanks for listening!

Quote from: Captain Rufus;273781The characters really haven't grown much and Brian & Bob are so intensely dislikable I just get angry.  Their antics aren't funny anymore.  Seeing a pair of game destroying tools every issue for a good 15 years has run its course.  I'd rather see them with the equally dislikable Black Hands and the kid nerd and the gay guy with the wheelchair switch over to the Knights' table.  The jerks go to where they belong and the nice if somewhat screwed up guys have a place where they aren't insulted every other panel.

Back in the day KoDT was new and I wasn't getting much RPing in so the cool sounding adventures being discussed even if they never happened that way were an RPG campaign by proxy.

Now its just getting to the point where I see a pair of assholes in one group and a trio in the other ruining some decent people's evenings every issue they appear and its just pissing me off.

Even in a humor strip Brian is a complete douchebag and no sane person would ever put up with his nonsense for that long.  First time some gamer took a swing at me or flipped my table and his ass would be on the street, with police assistance if necessary.

While I agree with some of the sentiment you express, I have to point out that it would be damned uninteresting to read about groups wherein everyone got along and played well together.

That said, I agree that the joke, in regards to Bob and (especially) Brian, has worn thin. I disagree that Bob and Brian haven't grown as characters - we've seen glimpses into Brian's pathetic life, and Bob has somehow landed a girlfriend, and we've also seen some of his family life.

Trouble is, they are both so exaggerated in their table antics that it gets tiresome and monotonous - there's too much stuff along the lines of "we're Lawful Good but we can slaughter villagers wholesale" without the counterpoint of "oh yeah? Well here's a bolt from the blue that says otherwise, and oh yeah, the gods have decreed that your entire bloodlines have been eradicated so your new characters get jack-shit for an inheritance - hell, take -2 on all attributes you roll for new characters." Yeah, I get that B.A. is supposed to be wishy-washy and a pushover most of the time, but the premise has just worn itself out, for my taste.

I like the Black Hands because there is a strong dialectic (yeah, I said dialectic) going on between a number of characters with strong viewpoints. Plus, everyone has gotten their comeuppance in that group, including the powerful DM. In the Knights, it just doesn't seem that way.

I enjoy the storylines in which there is an actual adventure being run, like the Temple of Horrendous Doom. Maybe more specifically, I like when something is really going on in the adventure, like a huge horde of pitbulls devastating the countryside or the Knights besieged by undead in a tomb with no clear route of escape.

As for HackMaster, I love the core books, and I like the splatbooks. Many of the hacked adventures are cool - Little Keep, Temple of Existential Evil, and the Lost Caverns are particular favorites. There are too few original modules, and many of the more recent ones (especially "hacked" versions of more obscure AD&D modules) are lackluster. But overall, I love the attitude of the game as it was originally. I'm still baffled (and I admit it's not tough to baffle me, but I digress) at how so many just didn't get the joke, or took offense at it.

Quote from: JollyRB;273538lol. yes it is  my curse. Dyslexia

I'm glad someone's been paying attention.

Hell yeah, I pay attention. I used to read 20-30 comics a month; now, KoDT is the only comic I read on a monthly basis.

Quote from: JollyRB;273800all I can say is we sold 20,000 copies of the core books and a butt load of supporting material. HM was very very good to us. Backstock was moving respectable well right up til the license prevented us from selling it.

Well, if no one else will say it I will. Congratulations Jolly and the rest at Kenzer! That is a great accomplishment.

Bill

Quote from: JollyRB;273800all I can say is we sold 20,000 copies of the core books and a butt load of supporting material. HM was very very good to us. Backstock was moving respectable well right up til the license prevented us from selling it.

Even with HM5 fans can't seem to agree if it should be silly, serious, somewhere in between. Not every who came to HackMaster had the same tastes/likes. So we simply went with what we ourselves wanted to see in the game and hoped for the best.

At the end of the day we tend to make games we we enjoy and hope that's enough. So far it's been working fairly well for us.

Very cool, Jolly.  I'm still using the Hackmaster GMG--with Castles & Crusades this time around.  There's just too many cool charts and items not to use it with every fantasy game that it'll work with.

Quote from: Zachary The First;274095Very cool, Jolly.  I'm still using the Hackmaster GMG--with Castles & Crusades this time around.  There's just too many cool charts and items not to use it with every fantasy game that it'll work with.

Thanks. I always glad to hear folks are still using the books. It was an incredible opportunity to play in Gary's sandbox and a fun ride.

Quote from: HinterWelt;273862Well, if no one else will say it I will. Congratulations Jolly and the rest at Kenzer! That is a great accomplishment.

Bill

Thanks, Bill.

Quote from: Gene Weigel;273834Thanks for the replies.

The humor seekers perhaps were supplanted, etc., etc., etc...

The humor was very funny in the "core books".

Can I just say that I would have liked to have seen the 2e D&D type material to have really gotten mauled by parody? It seems to have been avoided in favor of poking OD&D/AD&D but perhaps it was too soon for that as it was freshly defunct and a lot of contributors/designers seemed to be still be taking it seriously and using formats (class expansions, etc.) as a means of production instead of giving it a good "rogering". For example, if the class expansions negated all the abilities in a "catch 22" that would've really summed up 2e in humorous way. Another humorous approach might be the blandness of late 1e/2e (i.e. entire books with no real game content, etc.). of course both of those wouldn't click with people who were just using it to game! Perhaps, if there is ever another edition they can then use the opposite approach and have bestiaries full of harmless, ordinary and "misunderstood" creatures that was rampant in that 2e era!

Thanks for listening!

While a good deal of the 2e material was used in HM4e it probably didn't get the same treatment as AD&D coz none of us on the design team were huge fans of 2e nor played it much. So we ran with what we knew best.

Gary Speak and the layout/style of AD&D was a better fit I think as far as portraying the game the characters played in the comics.

I don't think any of us were familiar enough with 2e to adequately spoof it.

Spoofing something you love I think always works out best.

Nothing against 2e. It just didn't do it for me personally.