Knave 2e kickstarter appears to have started well. ~2k+ backers and ~$140k+ in less than 48 hours. It is structured similar to the Shadowdark KS with early reviews by a lot of the same youtubers.

Is this the new paradigm for OSR releases?
If so, is that good, bad, or neither?
How big is the market for OSR games in 2023
How close is it to being saturated, if at all?

You're selling it a bit short, as it's raised about $200K in only a few hours.   

Not sure I have any opinion on most of your questions, but I'd say that Maze Rats and Knave have had a pretty major influence on the OSR as a whole since their releases so I expect this Kickstarter to do pretty well.  As well as Shadowdark?  Maybe not, but more because it has a smaller target audience and not because it's somehow a worse game. 

Do you have a link to this or other information you can provide?

Sounds interesting but I have no information of it.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 02, 2023, 04:05:36 PM
Do you have a link to this or other information you can provide?

Sounds interesting but I have no information of it.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/questingbeast/knave-rpg-second-edition

Quote from: Festus on May 02, 2023, 04:18:18 PM
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/questingbeast/knave-rpg-second-edition

Thanks for the link.

I downloaded the preview pdf and it looks interesting, just not sure it is something I would use.

Will give the .pdf a full read and then decide.  After that I will be able to give a clear impression of what I have read.

Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.

Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.

I have the first edition. I agree it's too rules light for my tastes. And I mostly use tables for inspiration only. I'm not that into procedurally generating adventures.

I am however quite interested in the business side. I think we've all got issues with 5e and WotC, and the market seems like it may be broadening. Since the OGL mess I know a lot of creators and small publishers have had some of their best months sales-wise. I'm keen to see how Knave does. I think it's good news for the hobby if Shadowdark's success isn't just a fluke or product of clever marketing, but a sign of increased interest in things non-WotC and non-5e.

Dang, only been playing it for a few years now.  We must be doing something wrong...

Festus, I agree that it will be interesting to see how it fairs.  I think Shadowdark had a nice boost do to the timing of the release, as well as being marketed as a game that 5E players might migrate to.  Knave was created by a respected OSR veteran and has spawned numerous clones, and is definitely marketed to the OSR crowd.  This might give us some interesting insight into the post OGL market and how it may look in the coming years.

Quote from: Festus on May 02, 2023, 04:46:45 PM

Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.

I have the first edition. I agree it's too rules light for my tastes. And I mostly use tables for inspiration only. I'm not that into procedurally generating adventures.

I am however quite interested in the business side. I think we've all got issues with 5e and WotC, and the market seems like it may be broadening. Since the OGL mess I know a lot of creators and small publishers have had some of their best months sales-wise. I'm keen to see how Knave does. I think it's good news for the hobby if Shadowdark's success isn't just a fluke or product of clever marketing, but a sign of increased interest in things non-WotC and non-5e.

Knave has about the bare minimum of elements that are still recognisably 'D&D' without much else. So if you want something lean it's a good starting point to add the specific complexity you want but nothing extra that you don't explicitly want. The main thing I really didn't like about 1e is the random attribute generation - it's just something that almost never works well, and is somewhat worse in Knave with the attributes basically being your 'class'. 2e has fixed my major complaint with it, and otherwise it looks to still be just as hackable to make it what I'd want.

Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.

Sounds like a description of the creator himself.  Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer and for sure is not a good one.

Quote from: Persimmon on May 02, 2023, 06:34:36 PM

Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.

Sounds like a description of the creator himself.  Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer and for sure is not a good one.

What do you have against Ben Milton?

Quote from: mudbanks on May 02, 2023, 09:11:26 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on May 02, 2023, 06:34:36 PM

Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.

Sounds like a description of the creator himself.  Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer and for sure is not a good one.

What do you have against Ben Milton?

Didn't I just say it?  Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer, smug, annoying, has contributed nothing meaningful to the hobby, needs to be slapped.  Should I go on?  Just another annoying youtube shill.  To be fair, that describes the majority of RPG reviewer types, but I find QB especially annoying.  And then there's the thing where he took down a positive review of ACKS because he got pushback from the woke mob.  That alone qualifies him for the pimp slap.

Quote from: rkhigdon on May 02, 2023, 04:48:32 PM
Dang, only been playing it for a few years now.  We must be doing something wrong...

A lot of people consider being kicked in the nuts "fun". Doesn't mean it is.

Quote from: Persimmon on May 02, 2023, 11:14:12 PM

Quote from: mudbanks on May 02, 2023, 09:11:26 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on May 02, 2023, 06:34:36 PM

Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.

Sounds like a description of the creator himself.  Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer and for sure is not a good one.

What do you have against Ben Milton?

Didn't I just say it?  Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer, smug, annoying, has contributed nothing meaningful to the hobby, needs to be slapped.  Should I go on?  Just another annoying youtube shill.  To be fair, that describes the majority of RPG reviewer types, but I find QB especially annoying.  And then there's the thing where he took down a positive review of ACKS because he got pushback from the woke mob.  That alone qualifies him for the pimp slap.

Regardless of if some individuals like or dislike the guy.. the fact is he is one of the most popular reviewers on youtube and is connected to many of the other reviewers. Being popular has nothing to do with if he is "good" or not, I'm not saying he is good or bad, this is just a comment on how popular review effect things due to market penetration.

These super popular reviewers actually affect the entire scene perception of what a good game is. He says a game is good became of his preferences, people play it, people like it, they look for similar games. He says a game is bad because of his preferences, people do not even try it. After years and years of this, the entire ors and ors-like scene (as that is his focus) shifts closer to his sensibilities. We saw this with the Tome Vassel and the Dice Tower in boardgames as well. Future kickers even design their games to appeal to these influencers as a way to ensure success.

Quote from: Festus on May 02, 2023, 01:03:42 PMKnave 2e kickstarter appears to have started well. ~2k+ backers and ~$140k+ in less than 48 hours. It is structured similar to the Shadowdark KS with early reviews by a lot of the same youtubers.

Knave is a pretty good RPG imo. The kicker success is more to do with his youtube fanbase than the game, so probably not a great way to judge.

The game is a osr-like and is rules lite. If you like dense rules and stuff you might find in DnD then it will not be for you. The game is much more freeform, which imo is a good thing. Less rules the better.

The big "idea" in this is that there are no classes of any kind. Everyone is just a "knave". Abilities are linked to items and skills are completely developed by what you choose to develop. I like to compare it to Skyrim. In skyrim you swing an axe, you get better at axes, you cast a healing spell, you get better at healing magic. Knave is a similar kind of thing. Also think "materia" in Final Fantasy. The weapons and armour contain abilities and powers, even levels. Class specialisation like you see in DnD is mainly done via gear that can be changed.

The reasoning for this is that it completely removes god creep. Gmaes like DnD are about making the player powerful over time. Knave is not about that. I mean it is not Call of Cthulhu, but PCs are weak and never get strong. They are given abilities and skills that encourage imaginative role playing. Also unless you die a single Knave can be run for as long as you like. At any time you can pivot your group role and without the god-creep you can team with new characters as well. Theoretically you could run a single knave character forever in any game.

As this is a osr-like it is easily compatible with a host of systems as well. The strangest thing in Knave for me is the idea of the two rolling systems. Basically he has made a minimal DM interaction rolling system, and a completely alternative rolling system that is closer to DND. I think this is to make compatibility eaiser.  The first and vastly superior system, imo, is the minimal interaction one with the DM. In this verison of the rolls things happen automatically, and the players roll to effect ti. So like monsters always hit for example, and then hyou roll to mitigate. This frees up the DM to run the room, and the logistics and the RP while the players themselves can handle much of the mechanical stuff. I like this as the DM can really guide narrative fights rather than have to worry about all the detilas you get in a combat focused rpg.

All in all I think Knave is a good system, great even. My biggest issue with it is that by tying to satisfy two completely different rule sets for how the mechanical functions of the game work in relation to the dice it has sacrificed complexity in either system.

Quote from: rkhigdon on May 02, 2023, 03:14:31 PMMaze Rats

Maze Rats is "basically" a generator for OSR games. You can create monsters, characters, dungeons, villages, factions... it is just a mass of generator tools, and is compatible with pretty much anything. I've been using it in at Forbidden Lands table.

Quote from: Festus on May 02, 2023, 01:03:42 PMHow close is it to being saturated, if at all?

I think it is hella saturated. But not OSR.. like the entire rpg scene itself. These games take a while to play and there are more games coming out all the time. Personally I have 5 completely different systems coming from kickstarer or just arrived right now.. and the truth is that most of my rpgs get read a few times and go on the shelf as I basically play Forbidden Lands and Call of Cthulhu and that is about it for my spare time right now.

The good thing about OSR is that it is very easy to convert to any other system, the bad bit is that it "true" osr has so much in common with DnD. osr-like games are becoming more and more common that have the isr aesthetics and "philology" but use modern mechanisms and design ideas.