Knave 2e kickstarter appears to have started well. ~2k+ backers and ~$140k+ in less than 48 hours. It is structured similar to the Shadowdark KS with early reviews by a lot of the same youtubers.
Is this the new paradigm for OSR releases?
If so, is that good, bad, or neither?
How big is the market for OSR games in 2023
How close is it to being saturated, if at all?
You're selling it a bit short, as it's raised about $200K in only a few hours. ;)
Not sure I have any opinion on most of your questions, but I'd say that Maze Rats and Knave have had a pretty major influence on the OSR as a whole since their releases so I expect this Kickstarter to do pretty well. As well as Shadowdark? Maybe not, but more because it has a smaller target audience and not because it's somehow a worse game.
Do you have a link to this or other information you can provide?
Sounds interesting but I have no information of it.
Quote from: GhostNinja on May 02, 2023, 04:05:36 PM
Do you have a link to this or other information you can provide?
Sounds interesting but I have no information of it.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/questingbeast/knave-rpg-second-edition
Quote from: Festus on May 02, 2023, 04:18:18 PM
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/questingbeast/knave-rpg-second-edition
Thanks for the link.
I downloaded the preview pdf and it looks interesting, just not sure it is something I would use.
Will give the .pdf a full read and then decide. After that I will be able to give a clear impression of what I have read.
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.
Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.
I have the first edition. I agree it's too rules light for my tastes. And I mostly use tables for inspiration only. I'm not that into procedurally generating adventures.
I am however quite interested in the business side. I think we've all got issues with 5e and WotC, and the market seems like it may be broadening. Since the OGL mess I know a lot of creators and small publishers have had some of their best months sales-wise. I'm keen to see how Knave does. I think it's good news for the hobby if Shadowdark's success isn't just a fluke or product of clever marketing, but a sign of increased interest in things non-WotC and non-5e.
Dang, only been playing it for a few years now. We must be doing something wrong...
Festus, I agree that it will be interesting to see how it fairs. I think Shadowdark had a nice boost do to the timing of the release, as well as being marketed as a game that 5E players might migrate to. Knave was created by a respected OSR veteran and has spawned numerous clones, and is definitely marketed to the OSR crowd. This might give us some interesting insight into the post OGL market and how it may look in the coming years.
Quote from: Festus on May 02, 2023, 04:46:45 PM
Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.
I have the first edition. I agree it's too rules light for my tastes. And I mostly use tables for inspiration only. I'm not that into procedurally generating adventures.
I am however quite interested in the business side. I think we've all got issues with 5e and WotC, and the market seems like it may be broadening. Since the OGL mess I know a lot of creators and small publishers have had some of their best months sales-wise. I'm keen to see how Knave does. I think it's good news for the hobby if Shadowdark's success isn't just a fluke or product of clever marketing, but a sign of increased interest in things non-WotC and non-5e.
Knave has about the bare minimum of elements that are still recognisably 'D&D' without much else. So if you want something lean it's a good starting point to add the specific complexity you want but nothing extra that you don't explicitly want. The main thing I really didn't like about 1e is the random attribute generation - it's just something that almost never works well, and is somewhat worse in Knave with the attributes basically being your 'class'. 2e has fixed my major complaint with it, and otherwise it looks to still be just as hackable to make it what I'd want.
Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.
Sounds like a description of the creator himself. Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer and for sure is not a good one.
Quote from: Persimmon on May 02, 2023, 06:34:36 PM
Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.
Sounds like a description of the creator himself. Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer and for sure is not a good one.
What do you have against Ben Milton?
Quote from: mudbanks on May 02, 2023, 09:11:26 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on May 02, 2023, 06:34:36 PM
Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.
Sounds like a description of the creator himself. Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer and for sure is not a good one.
What do you have against Ben Milton?
Didn't I just say it? Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer, smug, annoying, has contributed nothing meaningful to the hobby, needs to be slapped. Should I go on? Just another annoying youtube shill. To be fair, that describes the majority of RPG reviewer types, but I find QB especially annoying. And then there's the thing where he took down a positive review of ACKS because he got pushback from the woke mob. That alone qualifies him for the pimp slap.
Quote from: rkhigdon on May 02, 2023, 04:48:32 PM
Dang, only been playing it for a few years now. We must be doing something wrong...
A lot of people consider being kicked in the nuts "fun". Doesn't mean it is.
Quote from: Persimmon on May 02, 2023, 11:14:12 PM
Quote from: mudbanks on May 02, 2023, 09:11:26 PM
Quote from: Persimmon on May 02, 2023, 06:34:36 PM
Quote from: Vestragor on May 02, 2023, 04:32:49 PM
Knave - too light, too random, too useless; it barely qualifies as an RPG, bur for sure is not a good one.
Unless they rewrite the second edition from scratch, it will be the same shit.
Sounds like a description of the creator himself. Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer and for sure is not a good one.
What do you have against Ben Milton?
Didn't I just say it? Random, useless, barely qualifies as a reviewer, smug, annoying, has contributed nothing meaningful to the hobby, needs to be slapped. Should I go on? Just another annoying youtube shill. To be fair, that describes the majority of RPG reviewer types, but I find QB especially annoying. And then there's the thing where he took down a positive review of ACKS because he got pushback from the woke mob. That alone qualifies him for the pimp slap.
Regardless of if some individuals like or dislike the guy.. the fact is he is one of the most popular reviewers on youtube and is connected to many of the other reviewers. Being popular has nothing to do with if he is "good" or not, I'm not saying he is good or bad, this is just a comment on how popular review effect things due to market penetration.
These super popular reviewers actually affect the entire scene perception of what a good game is. He says a game is good became of his preferences, people play it, people like it, they look for similar games. He says a game is bad because of his preferences, people do not even try it. After years and years of this, the entire ors and ors-like scene (as that is his focus) shifts closer to his sensibilities. We saw this with the Tome Vassel and the Dice Tower in boardgames as well. Future kickers even design their games to appeal to these influencers as a way to ensure success.
Quote from: Festus on May 02, 2023, 01:03:42 PMKnave 2e kickstarter appears to have started well. ~2k+ backers and ~$140k+ in less than 48 hours. It is structured similar to the Shadowdark KS with early reviews by a lot of the same youtubers.
Knave is a pretty good RPG imo. The kicker success is more to do with his youtube fanbase than the game, so probably not a great way to judge.
The game is a osr-like and is rules lite. If you like dense rules and stuff you might find in DnD then it will not be for you. The game is much more freeform, which imo is a good thing. Less rules the better.
The big "idea" in this is that there are no classes of any kind. Everyone is just a "knave". Abilities are linked to items and skills are completely developed by what you choose to develop. I like to compare it to Skyrim. In skyrim you swing an axe, you get better at axes, you cast a healing spell, you get better at healing magic. Knave is a similar kind of thing. Also think "materia" in Final Fantasy. The weapons and armour contain abilities and powers, even levels. Class specialisation like you see in DnD is mainly done via gear that can be changed.
The reasoning for this is that it completely removes god creep. Gmaes like DnD are about making the player powerful over time. Knave is not about that. I mean it is not Call of Cthulhu, but PCs are weak and never get strong. They are given abilities and skills that encourage imaginative role playing. Also unless you die a single Knave can be run for as long as you like. At any time you can pivot your group role and without the god-creep you can team with new characters as well. Theoretically you could run a single knave character forever in any game.
As this is a osr-like it is easily compatible with a host of systems as well. The strangest thing in Knave for me is the idea of the two rolling systems. Basically he has made a minimal DM interaction rolling system, and a completely alternative rolling system that is closer to DND. I think this is to make compatibility eaiser. The first and vastly superior system, imo, is the minimal interaction one with the DM. In this verison of the rolls things happen automatically, and the players roll to effect ti. So like monsters always hit for example, and then hyou roll to mitigate. This frees up the DM to run the room, and the logistics and the RP while the players themselves can handle much of the mechanical stuff. I like this as the DM can really guide narrative fights rather than have to worry about all the detilas you get in a combat focused rpg.
All in all I think Knave is a good system, great even. My biggest issue with it is that by tying to satisfy two completely different rule sets for how the mechanical functions of the game work in relation to the dice it has sacrificed complexity in either system.
Quote from: rkhigdon on May 02, 2023, 03:14:31 PMMaze Rats
Maze Rats is "basically" a generator for OSR games. You can create monsters, characters, dungeons, villages, factions... it is just a mass of generator tools, and is compatible with pretty much anything. I've been using it in at Forbidden Lands table.
Quote from: Festus on May 02, 2023, 01:03:42 PMHow close is it to being saturated, if at all?
I think it is hella saturated. But not OSR.. like the entire rpg scene itself. These games take a while to play and there are more games coming out all the time. Personally I have 5 completely different systems coming from kickstarer or just arrived right now.. and the truth is that most of my rpgs get read a few times and go on the shelf as I basically play Forbidden Lands and Call of Cthulhu and that is about it for my spare time right now.
The good thing about OSR is that it is very easy to convert to any other system, the bad bit is that it "true" osr has so much in common with DnD. osr-like games are becoming more and more common that have the isr aesthetics and "philology" but use modern mechanisms and design ideas.
Quote from: Summon666 on May 03, 2023, 01:13:10 AM
These super popular reviewers actually affect the entire scene perception of what a good game is. He says a game is good became of his preferences, people play it, people like it, they look for similar games. He says a game is bad because of his preferences, people do not even try it. After years and years of this, the entire ors and ors-like scene (as that is his focus) shifts closer to his sensibilities. We saw this with the Tome Vassel and the Dice Tower in boardgames as well. Future kickers even design their games to appeal to these influencers as a way to ensure success.
Can you share a couple times he has said a game is bad? His promotions....er....reviews are paid reviews. I'd be curious how many people you can find who paid and had their honestly bad game given an honestly bad review.
And if you cannot see how "kickers" designing games to appease a paid reviewer isn't a red flag, I think we probably see the world differently.
Dunno.. I do not watch his videos very often.. but if he is like most of the boardgame and tabletop reviewers I know of, the vast majority of stuff is reviewed as good becuase the stuff he buys is based on his own taste. So there is a bias to them being "good", to him. He is probably not reviewing randomly.. he is reviewing the stuff he gets for his own collections, so stuff he already thinks looks good, or stuff sent to him, and they will of course be sending stuff they think he will respond positivly to. So this is why you very rarely see bad reviews on youtube. Particularly when they are trying to just say what it is. I just watched a few of his recent ones and, to his credit, he doesn't actually say things are good or bad.. just reads out the various mechanisms, describes the world, and comments if an aspect of the game here and there, like say layout or how resting works or something appeals to him, personally.
Quote from: FingerRod on May 03, 2023, 08:10:33 AMAnd if you cannot see how "kickers" designing games to appease a paid reviewer isn't a red flag, I think we probably see the world differently.
I didn't say it wasn't a red flag.. I said that is the reality of the industry you and I play in. I also was kinda saying that Knave is made by him, for himself and his fans.... and there is nothing wrong with that. Building a RPG for a target audience is smart. Why do you think publisher spend so much to get Bladerunner or Dune when they could just make something new like Wildsea?
Quote from: FingerRod on May 03, 2023, 08:10:33 AM
Quote from: Summon666 on May 03, 2023, 01:13:10 AM
These super popular reviewers actually affect the entire scene perception of what a good game is. He says a game is good became of his preferences, people play it, people like it, they look for similar games. He says a game is bad because of his preferences, people do not even try it. After years and years of this, the entire ors and ors-like scene (as that is his focus) shifts closer to his sensibilities. We saw this with the Tome Vassel and the Dice Tower in boardgames as well. Future kickers even design their games to appeal to these influencers as a way to ensure success.
Can you share a couple times he has said a game is bad? His promotions....er....reviews are paid reviews. I'd be curious how many people you can find who paid and had their honestly bad game given an honestly bad review.
And if you cannot see how "kickers" designing games to appease a paid reviewer isn't a red flag, I think we probably see the world differently.
He has 1 negative review iirc its of Dark Albion that he did early on before he was all paid reviews. He also deleted a positive revoew of ACKS
Knave is good. Ben's videos are good. I don't watch his videos to get hard-hitting reviews. His videos are very useful for showcasing physical products that I may be interested in buying. There is no local gaming store where I can physically flip through a copy of Vaults of Vaarn or The Haunted Almanac or other somewhat obscure items. But videos showing flip-throughs of potentially interesting products have me subscribed to his channel.
Knave 2 looks good also. It looks like something myself and my gaming table would be interested in playing, so I happily backed the Kickstarter. Congrats to Ben for its early success.
Quote from: Crusader X on May 03, 2023, 10:53:06 AM
Knave is good. Ben's videos are good. I don't watch his videos to get hard-hitting reviews. His videos are very useful for showcasing physical products that I may be interested in buying. There is no local gaming store where I can physically flip through a copy of Vaults of Vaarn or The Haunted Almanac or other somewhat obscure items. But videos showing flip-throughs of potentially interesting products have me subscribed to his channel.
agreed.. this is my main use of youtube reviewers.. to see the book, its size, the binding the pages, art and a over view of the mechanisms.
I think Ben gives honest reviews in the context of what his channel is about.
I'd say there were very few instances of overall bad reviews, but I'd also suggest that is not the tack he tends to take on his channel. His reviews are generally more akin to a flip through of the product with commentary on what works or doesn't work in his opinion. So he's going to focus on readability, usability, the vibe, the occasional broken or golden mechanic, but not necessarily giving an overall score to the game. The thought being that individual preference is going to vary wildly, so just show the product and let people make their own decision.
Of course, he still is a paid reviewer. I have heard that he gives some initial feedback to the publisher/creator before taking their money. I imagine most won't pay to have a negative review of their creations, so I'd assume that the reviews will trend on the positive side.
I view all of these RPG kickstarters with extreme skepticism to say the least, but this does seem to be the new meta for marketing them.
As far as the old Knave goes, all I can say is that outside of one comment earlier in this thread, I'd never met or heard of anyone who said they'd played a campaign of it.
As far as Knave 2e goes, I watched DungeonCraft's (extremely shill-y) review of it. It looks...fine? I like the classless thing. "OSR but classless" is an obvious take that I'm surprised more people haven't done. The art is nothing special, and it looks like a lot of the book is devoted to random tables. As I've said elsewhere, D100 random adjective tables are utterly useless to me. I do like the overhauled reaction roll table I saw in Milton's preview video, but it's hardly worth buying a book just for that.
As far as Ben Milton himself goes, I haven't really paid attention to him for a while. I know a lot of old-schoolers resent him as being an interloping johnny-come-lately who they see as having adopted the OSR as a means of grifting for money. I don't think it's that bad, but I do get it. He did a video a while back about OSR DM-ing being easier than 5e DM-ing, which a lot of people took exception to. The premise was right, but he gave the impression that he thinks old-school play is nothing more than random dungeon crawling.
As a reviewer, yeah, he's pretty much useless. Let's be honest though, between the internal politics of the RPG world and just flat out getting paid, Youtube RPG reviews are mostly pretty useless. The only Youtube reviewers I'm aware of that even make a pretense of giving impartial reviews are Seth Skorkowsky and Grim Jim. Dungeoncraft for example, falls back on the "I only review games I like" line, which come to think of it, would be a pretty good cover for when he is shilling. It's also worth pointing out that a reviewer doesn't have to be getting paid to have a conflict. Being friends with the creator is just as much of an influence on your judgment, if not more.
Quote from: ForgottenF on May 03, 2023, 01:42:31 PM
As a reviewer, yeah, he's pretty much useless. Let's be honest though, between the internal politics of the RPG world and just flat out getting paid, Youtube RPG reviews are mostly pretty useless. The only Youtube reviewers I'm aware of that even make a pretense of giving impartial reviews are Seth Skorkowsky and Grim Jim. Dungeoncraft for example, falls back on the "I only review games I like" line, which come to think of it, would be a pretty good cover for when he is shilling. It's also worth pointing out that a reviewer doesn't have to be getting paid to have a conflict. Being friends with the creator is just as much of an influence on your judgment, if not more.
Yeah, I don't really decide to buy or not buy based on what any one reviewer says. I hope that a reviewer can dive me some kind of information that I otherwise wasn't able to glean. But I'm also going to look for play experiences and reports on forums.
Quote from: Summon666 on May 03, 2023, 09:03:33 AM
Dunno.. I do not watch his videos very often.. but if he is like most of the boardgame and tabletop reviewers I know of, the vast majority of stuff is reviewed as good becuase the stuff he buys is based on his own taste. So there is a bias to them being "good", to him. He is probably not reviewing randomly.. he is reviewing the stuff he gets for his own collections, so stuff he already thinks looks good, or stuff sent to him, and they will of course be sending stuff they think he will respond positivly to. So this is why you very rarely see bad reviews on youtube. Particularly when they are trying to just say what it is. I just watched a few of his recent ones and, to his credit, he doesn't actually say things are good or bad.. just reads out the various mechanisms, describes the world, and comments if an aspect of the game here and there, like say layout or how resting works or something appeals to him, personally.
Quote from: FingerRod on May 03, 2023, 08:10:33 AMAnd if you cannot see how "kickers" designing games to appease a paid reviewer isn't a red flag, I think we probably see the world differently.
I didn't say it wasn't a red flag.. I said that is the reality of the industry you and I play in. I also was kinda saying that Knave is made by him, for himself and his fans.... and there is nothing wrong with that. Building a RPG for a target audience is smart. Why do you think publisher spend so much to get Bladerunner or Dune when they could just make something new like Wildsea?
Okay, and I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, but I was specifically replying to this comment:
Quote from: Summon666 on May 03, 2023, 01:13:10 AM
These super popular reviewers actually affect the entire scene perception of what a good game is. He says a game is good became of his preferences, people play it, people like it, they look for similar games. He says a game is bad because of his preferences, people do not even try it. After years and years of this, the entire ors and ors-like scene (as that is his focus) shifts closer to his sensibilities. We saw this with the Tome Vassel and the Dice Tower in boardgames as well. Future kickers even design their games to appeal to these influencers as a way to ensure success.
I was pointing out that he doesn't say games are bad, tho. He is not a true critic. He is not a true 360 influencer. He is more of a promoter.
Thankfully, I do not think he has the reach that game designers are designing with his tastes in mind. That would be terrible. To your point, designers should design for themselves and their audience.
The original Knave was mechanically sound. I found Maze Rats to be sound as well, even as more of a toolkit. That said, the spell tables were not as good.
To my knowledge Maze Knights never made it to release? Can somebody check me there?
I think one of the watch points for me is that two of the larger kickstarters this year has come from a slowly forming consortium. If the Arcane Library and Runehammer release a hype video for this, as PDM has, then I think we have officially moved out of the tinfoil hat arena.
Edit: Sorry, one of the more humorous parts of the Kickstarter is the "world-class GM's toolkit" bragged about that hasn't been finished yet, with writing that will not be complete until the end of the year. This is why people should Kickstarter responsibly.
Quote from: FingerRod on May 03, 2023, 05:54:24 PM
To my knowledge Maze Knights never made it to release? Can somebody check me there?
Maze Knights never came out. Ben was asked about it in the comments section of the Knave 2 Kickstarter. His response was
"It's on the backburner right now because I wasn't making much progress on it."
Quote from: Crusader X on May 03, 2023, 06:36:16 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on May 03, 2023, 05:54:24 PM
To my knowledge Maze Knights never made it to release? Can somebody check me there?
Maze Knights never came out. Ben was asked about it in the comments section of the Knave 2 Kickstarter. His response was "It's on the backburner right now because I wasn't making much progress on it."
Interesting. Thanks. I know he strung that out on Patreon for a long time.
Quote from: ForgottenF on May 03, 2023, 01:42:31 PM
As a reviewer, yeah, [Ben Milton]'s pretty much useless. [...] The only Youtube reviewers I'm aware of that even make a pretense of giving impartial reviews are Seth Skorkowsky[. ...]
I don't care much for impartiality, because nobody can be really impartial: I prefer when people state their biases. But I think Seth (I am unfamiliar with Grim Jim reviews) is the only real reviewer because he only reviews the games he played. Just reading an RPG book is a literary review; you need to play it to be able to review a game. Ben Milton's reviews are just him flipping pages. (Even though sometimes I like a book only because it is pretty and it would look nice on my shelves.)
About Knave, the original, I remember that when I got the PDF, I redownloaded it twice thinking there was a problem with the download and the document was missing pages. I never played it and I find how it deals with equipment too strict, too much like a cRPG. But I know that is personal preference.
I read the Kickstarter entry and was intrigued. There are some elements of Knave that really appeal (quoting here:)
- A relationship-driven divine magic system in which PCs make bargains with patrons for their blessings.
- A monster-hunting alchemy system where PCs can hunt down magical creatures for their special abilities and then refine them into potions.
- Downtime activities where PCs carouse, gamble, recruit hirelings, and build bases.
- A utility-focused magic system that empowers PCs to alter the world in creative ways
So I downloaded the preview, and my excitement level waned a bit. Granted, the concepts listed above weren't mentioned, but some of the other elements (no classes, core mechanic, equipment slots) gave me pause. I wish there had been more to examine. At this point, I'm on the fence.
Can anyone who has played Knave provide any more information?
Quote from: Aglondir on May 14, 2023, 10:46:39 PMno classes, core mechanic, equipment slots) gave me pause.
No Classes and Equipment Abilities are the basic core ideas that make the game what it is. It is kind of the entire point of the rule system. So if that is a red flag to you, I'd pass on the game.. as it is ingrained into the entire design, even the non player stuff like monsters and npc and wot not.
Personally no classes is awesome and something I wish more games had and the Equipment Abilities thing is imo a great way to allow free form party building where your character is based on their personality, not their "role" as the role is malleable.
Quote from: Aglondir on May 14, 2023, 10:46:39 PMCan anyone who has played Knave provide any more information?
I made a more detailed post, you may have missed on the 1st page of this thread...
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/knave-2e-thoughts/msg1252814/#msg1252814
Quote from: Crusader X on May 03, 2023, 06:36:16 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on May 03, 2023, 05:54:24 PM
To my knowledge Maze Knights never made it to release? Can somebody check me there?
Maze Knights never came out. Ben was asked about it in the comments section of the Knave 2 Kickstarter. His response was "It's on the backburner right now because I wasn't making much progress on it."
It has been out for a long time, but only as a pdf.. there has never been a physical release.
Quote from: Summon666 on May 15, 2023, 01:23:45 AM
Quote
Maze Knights never came out. Ben was asked about it in the comments section of the Knave 2 Kickstarter. His response was "It's on the backburner right now because I wasn't making much progress on it."
It has been out for a long time, but only as a pdf.. there has never been a physical release.
Maze
Rats has been out for a long time, as a pdf. Maze
Knights was supposed to be a more advanced version of Maze Rats, but that particular project never came out. Unless I'm mistaken?
ahhh... oh right.. ok.. well rats then ; )
Quote from: Slambo on May 03, 2023, 10:51:06 AM
...
He has 1 negative review iirc its of Dark Albion that he did early on before he was all paid reviews. He also deleted a positive review of ACKS
Well, with what he did to ACKs when he found out it was written by a badwrongfun person, and Pundit's politics not being a secret - I am inclined to have my filters up when evaluating the worth of his Dark Albion review...
Quote from: ForgottenF on May 03, 2023, 01:42:31 PM
...Dungeoncraft for example, falls back on the "I only review games I like" line, which come to think of it, would be a pretty good cover for when he is shilling. It's also worth pointing out that a reviewer doesn't have to be getting paid to have a conflict. Being friends with the creator is just as much of an influence on your judgment, if not more.
In doing this he actually does his followers a disservice.
For both of his reviews of WHFRP 4e, and The Witcher RPG; he outright ignores or misses known systematic issues in both games.
A BIG problem with his reviews is that he only uses other RPG's for idea mines for his homebrew game.
He doesn't actually play different games...
Quote from: Jaeger on May 15, 2023, 05:49:24 PM
A BIG problem with his reviews is that he only uses other RPG's for idea mines for his homebrew game.
This is definitely useful to know. If you're buying games for the same purpose, then his reviews may be useful. Otherwise at best they might tell you a game is worth taking a deeper look at.
I like that WIS is used for ranged attacks, and INT is used for traps. About time DEX got taken down a notch.
As I mentioned with Shadowdark. One of the things I love about the OSR is how decentralized it is. As an hypothetical example, If Pundit were to suddenly acquire brain damage and become a raving loon who cancels everyone and tells people not to play his games, that doesn't affect people who play LotFP or OSE. Shadowdark is going to bring in "people" (NPCs) who are used to 5e influencers telling them what to think and what to buy. We now have two instances of OSR influencers and content creators propping up their friends games. I do not want OSR content creators to become a nepotistic clique like Games Journalism. A clique that can dictate what is and isn't acceptable to review and play is effectively centralizing the OSR. Which WILL cause problems. OSR products often aren't really advertised without word of mouth from OSR adjacent content creators. Certainly there are games within the OSR now I wouldn't have known about without being talked about on You Tube and various forums. Word of mouth is powerful in advertising. Do people want to live in a world where cool, unique and interesting OSR books get ignored for whatever will get the most views or satisfies a group of less than 1% of the OSR?
Quote from: King Tyranno on May 18, 2023, 08:09:44 AM
As I mentioned with Shadowdark. One of the things I love about the OSR is how decentralized it is. As an hypothetical example, If Pundit were to suddenly acquire brain damage and become a raving loon who cancels everyone and tells people not to play his games, that doesn't affect people who play LotFP or OSE. Shadowdark is going to bring in "people" (NPCs) who are used to 5e influencers telling them what to think and what to buy. We now have two instances of OSR influencers and content creators propping up their friends games. I do not want OSR content creators to become a nepotistic clique like Games Journalism. A clique that can dictate what is and isn't acceptable to review and play is effectively centralizing the OSR. Which WILL cause problems. OSR products often aren't really advertised without word of mouth from OSR adjacent content creators. Certainly there are games within the OSR now I wouldn't have known about without being talked about on You Tube and various forums. Word of mouth is powerful in advertising. Do people want to live in a world where cool, unique and interesting OSR books get ignored for whatever will get the most views or satisfies a group of less than 1% of the OSR?
So folks who happen to follow a 5e adventure designer like the Shadowdark author aren't real "people?"
And if I were to publish a game it would be wrong for my friends to recommend it on social media?
Or is it only certain people who aren't allowed to do that?
Who decides?
Who exactly makes up the OSR YouTube purity committee?
Cool unique games get ignored every day. Been happening for as long as there has been a TTRPG hobby.
Welcome to the real world.
Quote from: Festus on May 18, 2023, 06:29:54 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on May 18, 2023, 08:09:44 AM
As I mentioned with Shadowdark. One of the things I love about the OSR is how decentralized it is. As an hypothetical example, If Pundit were to suddenly acquire brain damage and become a raving loon who cancels everyone and tells people not to play his games, that doesn't affect people who play LotFP or OSE. Shadowdark is going to bring in "people" (NPCs) who are used to 5e influencers telling them what to think and what to buy. We now have two instances of OSR influencers and content creators propping up their friends games. I do not want OSR content creators to become a nepotistic clique like Games Journalism. A clique that can dictate what is and isn't acceptable to review and play is effectively centralizing the OSR. Which WILL cause problems. OSR products often aren't really advertised without word of mouth from OSR adjacent content creators. Certainly there are games within the OSR now I wouldn't have known about without being talked about on You Tube and various forums. Word of mouth is powerful in advertising. Do people want to live in a world where cool, unique and interesting OSR books get ignored for whatever will get the most views or satisfies a group of less than 1% of the OSR?
So folks who happen to follow a 5e adventure designer like the Shadowdark author aren't real "people?"
NPCs are not real people. No. I'm glad we can agree on that.
Ben Milton has always been pro-OSR. I find his reviews informative. I hope his kickstarter does well even if i have no interest.
Quote from: King Tyranno on May 18, 2023, 08:09:44 AM
As I mentioned with Shadowdark. One of the things I love about the OSR is how decentralized it is. As an hypothetical example, If Pundit were to suddenly acquire brain damage and become a raving loon who cancels everyone and tells people not to play his games, that doesn't affect people who play LotFP or OSE. Shadowdark is going to bring in "people" (NPCs) who are used to 5e influencers telling them what to think and what to buy. We now have two instances of OSR influencers and content creators propping up their friends games. I do not want OSR content creators to become a nepotistic clique like Games Journalism. A clique that can dictate what is and isn't acceptable to review and play is effectively centralizing the OSR. Which WILL cause problems. OSR products often aren't really advertised without word of mouth from OSR adjacent content creators. Certainly there are games within the OSR now I wouldn't have known about without being talked about on You Tube and various forums. Word of mouth is powerful in advertising. Do people want to live in a world where cool, unique and interesting OSR books get ignored for whatever will get the most views or satisfies a group of less than 1% of the OSR?
I got news for you, gaming is already that. The OSR is a niche of a niche of a niche and that's not going to change. You have people with hard-ons/hate-ons for any given OSR game. It's not hard to see. Hell, the NPC comment you spewed out just goes to show what clique you are in.
But guess what? You, and many others, are still going to be able to find alternatives you prefer in the same way that you currently do. They aren't going anywhere. The only difference is that maybe someone, somewhere is more likely to veer off and try something that isn't D&D.
as long as people move away from DnD its all good.. if it is an OSR game or not. : )
Quote from: King Tyranno on May 18, 2023, 08:36:06 PM
Quote from: Festus on May 18, 2023, 06:29:54 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on May 18, 2023, 08:09:44 AM
As I mentioned with Shadowdark. One of the things I love about the OSR is how decentralized it is. As an hypothetical example, If Pundit were to suddenly acquire brain damage and become a raving loon who cancels everyone and tells people not to play his games, that doesn't affect people who play LotFP or OSE. Shadowdark is going to bring in "people" (NPCs) who are used to 5e influencers telling them what to think and what to buy. We now have two instances of OSR influencers and content creators propping up their friends games. I do not want OSR content creators to become a nepotistic clique like Games Journalism. A clique that can dictate what is and isn't acceptable to review and play is effectively centralizing the OSR. Which WILL cause problems. OSR products often aren't really advertised without word of mouth from OSR adjacent content creators. Certainly there are games within the OSR now I wouldn't have known about without being talked about on You Tube and various forums. Word of mouth is powerful in advertising. Do people want to live in a world where cool, unique and interesting OSR books get ignored for whatever will get the most views or satisfies a group of less than 1% of the OSR?
So folks who happen to follow a 5e adventure designer like the Shadowdark author aren't real "people?"
NPCs are not real people. No. I'm glad we can agree on that.
Well ain't you special!
Quote from: King Tyranno on May 18, 2023, 08:09:44 AM
As I mentioned with Shadowdark. One of the things I love about the OSR is how decentralized it is. As an hypothetical example, If Pundit were to suddenly acquire brain damage and become a raving loon who cancels everyone and tells people not to play his games, that doesn't affect people who play LotFP or OSE. Shadowdark is going to bring in "people" (NPCs) who are used to 5e influencers telling them what to think and what to buy. We now have two instances of OSR influencers and content creators propping up their friends games. I do not want OSR content creators to become a nepotistic clique like Games Journalism. A clique that can dictate what is and isn't acceptable to review and play is effectively centralizing the OSR. Which WILL cause problems. OSR products often aren't really advertised without word of mouth from OSR adjacent content creators. Certainly there are games within the OSR now I wouldn't have known about without being talked about on You Tube and various forums. Word of mouth is powerful in advertising. Do people want to live in a world where cool, unique and interesting OSR books get ignored for whatever will get the most views or satisfies a group of less than 1% of the OSR?
You sound extremely bitter and angry about people looking into the OSR to see what it is like and instead of finding it a friendly place full of new and unique ideas not behelden to a corporate greed machine they see raving gatekeepers who screech like howler monkies when approached. God forbid if James Raggi and Kelsey Dione sit down and have a discussion about rules and concepts and agree/disagree on things.
Try doing the opposite and you'll see the flood gates of 'normies' coming to the OSR in droves away from the 5E train.
I can't wait to see folks doing mental backflips if Critical Role's new gaming system is OSR based.