While googling campaign settings for Pathfinder, I stumbled upon Kingdoms of Legend. KoL is unique because it is 15th century Europe with elves and orcs tacked on. I like this very much because it cuts out the middleman: every fantasy setting is just mirror universe Europe, so why not just use Europe?

Where the setting falls apart for me is that Christianity and Islam are conspicuously absent, replaced by Roman syncretism, while the political institutions founded on them remain the same. E.g., the Teutonic Knights are still fighting infidels in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Papal States are a magocracy (?!), etc.

The writers said this was to avoid offending people, but I can't accept that. Without Christianity, this is just your generic fantasy world with familiar names. The entire point of playing in medieval Europe is to kick ass for the Lord!

Agree or disagree?

Erasure! Erasure!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;852889Agree or disagree?

Having now seen the juicy roleplaying advantages of 7th Sea's pseudo Abrahamic-gnostic faiths in action for myself, I must say I agree this was likely a missed opportunity.

However, part of that roleplaying potential depends heavily on the fact that it is based on faith and the lack of decent evidence, which allows for harsh factionalism, theological debate, witch hunts of the innocent, moral confusion, real tests of piety, anxiety-driven fanaticism, legit martyrdom, eight anklebones of St. Louis and other great stuff; Pathfinder/D&D's divine magic and related system/setting elements really undermine that necessary uncertainty (and don't tell me Eberron's agnosticism makes it work, because I'm running Eberron right now and it only half-works).

Also, an alt-history campaign where Europe's identity wasn't utterly defined by Christianity and its variants could be an interesting exploration too. I've actually been wondering lately how France's culture, for instance, would have developed if its Celtic elements had been better preserved and propagated through the centuries.

EDIT: Removed some petty bitter bullshit on my part.

Medieval Europe without Christianity (and Islam on the edges) isn't really medieval Europe.

It was funny to see pervasive Christianity in 0D&D which was not set in Europe. Vampires were repelled by "crosses", St Cuthbert, etc.

If having Christianity in a fantasy Europe offends you, don't play that game. Buy a different setting.

I actually had a player who insisted on playing only Christian characters in D&D. "No way is my character worshiping some pagan god." I said OK, and didn't worry about Christianity was present in my non-Earth fantasy game.

In my current game the question of religion hasn't come up yet. There is the possibility of playing a religious acolyte, but no one has chosen to yet. I have not defined any of the religions for the world.

This shit drives me crazy. A pseudo historical game set in 15th century europe needs christianity and other real world religions. Period. Anything else is a crapy glancing blow at the heart of the setting.

I absolutely think you can do medieval Europe without Christianity.

Unfortunately, almost invariably, the gaming world does.

You don't suppose that the existence of elves and orcs might have butterflied away the prominence of Abrahamic religion?

(although in that case, one must wonder why it didn't butterfly away the Roman Empire...)

Wait, here's a possibly related thought: did the setting keep or ditch historical sexism?

Quote from: Ravenswing;852967I absolutely think you can do medieval Europe without Christianity.

It wouldn't really be the 15th century though, now would it?

Quote from: Ravenswing;852967I absolutely think you can do medieval Europe without Christianity.

Unfortunately, almost invariably, the gaming world does.

Really? Other than the Best Forgotten Realms (much of the history of which is Earth with the serial numbers filed off) can you give some other examples?

It seem sto me more of th egaming world is doing Tolkien or Howard.

Quote from: Ravenswing;852967I absolutely think you can do medieval Europe without Christianity.

Unfortunately, almost invariably, the gaming world does.

The major exceptions I can think of are Ars Magica, Pendragon, Cthulhu: Dark Ages and Vampire: the Dark Ages.

Any other exceptions, whilst we're on the topic?

EDIT: Whoops, nearly forgot Maelstrom Domesday.

Quote from: Axiomatic;852968You don't suppose that the existence of elves and orcs might have butterflied away the prominence of Abrahamic religion?

(although in that case, one must wonder why it didn't butterfly away the Roman Empire...)

The whole point of Kingdoms of Legend is add elves and orcs to medieval Europe, butterfly be darned. Furthermore, Christianity doesn't exist in the game to avoid offending people and to have a pantheon like every other D&D campaign setting, not any other reason.

So while the setting promises medieval Europe, what they really mean is generic fantasy world with familiar names. Which is a huge rip-off.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;852978Wait, here's a possibly related thought: did the setting keep or ditch historical sexism?

It is not mentioned. After reading Medieval Players Guide, which addresses that, I assume PCs are special enough to warrant ignoring gender values. It's not like women were treated as disposable! Men were willing to kill their best friends in duels if both desired the same woman!

Real-world religion can be a touchy subject for some people. I have no problem running a world with Christianity. In fact, once upon a time, I was less annoyed by the omission of Christianity (real-world religion can always be a touchy subject for some players and GMs) than by its substitution by made-up religions that bear little or no resemblance to Christianity, but use the trappings of historical Christianity; this is common enough that it's got  at least two distinct TVTropes Wiki entries.

Nowadays, though, I embrace the silliness. It can be leveraged to add flavor. I find it hard to imagine WFRP without a Catholic Church that worships Conan as played by Ahnold as the founding father of the nation, plus a culturally acceptable Old Faith wolf god (Ulric) and a smattering of Greco-Roman-ish deities (Vereena/Myrmidia/Shallya as Athena, Taal/Rhya as Dionysus, etc.). It's a mess, but an endearing one, and the proliferation of cults is a reasonable expactation when the world's going to hell in a handbasket, as is the case with WFRP's Old World. And it all fits, thematically, with the setting's embrace of black humor and a frank caricature of Late Medieval/Early Renaissance Europe.

When crafting a fantasy world of my own, I usually succumb to the siren song of D&Desque polytheism, but I often make a point of hewing in what I feel might be a decent stand-in for Christianity. My favorite tactic is to draw from Mithraism, which is said to have greatly influenced and cross-pollinated with early Christianity, and might have turned out similar given enough time; so my Christianity stand-in is usually a solar deity with a suitably redeeming life-death-rebirth theme. Also very easy to fit into pantheon narratives if necessary (I sometimes like to frame the religion's origin as an evolution from an older, more comprehensive pantheon).

When the world is an alt-Earth, though, I just go with Christianity. I don't think you can have a reasonable facsimile of our own Common Era world without Christianity, at least in the West and the Near East.

Yep, it's hard to make sense of many of the details of medieval Europe without Christianity. It's not enough to "butterfly away" some things without explaining why everything else didn't fall victim to the lepidopteran alteration of causality, either directly (would dwarves have prevented the collapse of the Carolingian Empire?) or indirectly (how do you have the Teutonic Knights without Christianity?)

That said, I've seen a pretty nice not-Christian setup in the game Shades of Fantasy. It's not Europe, but the main religion is pretty similar to inistitutionized Mainichaeism.

As for sects, schisms, and religious conflict, I absolutely agree that magic makes it hard. This topic came up a long while back on this forum and I remember being puzzled by the mental gymnastics some posters employed. If I have a chance I will dig it up. Anyway, I think the as the power of magic increases, so does the difficulty of sustaining the ambiguity over matters of faith. However, I think it might be handled by describing magic purely in terms of effect. Then one person's divine magic is another's sorcery.

Quote from: Arminius;853036However, I think it might be handled by describing magic purely in terms of effect. Then one person's divine magic is another's sorcery.

That and identifying the gods and demons as the same sort of being as spirits, but spirits who have fattened on the tasty spiritual sacrifices of their worshippers (or have torn sustenance from the souls of their screaming victims) to reach a state of enormou spiritual power. So they aren't necessarily objects to worship, but spiritual beings that anybody can propitiate and manipulate via the appropriate ceremonies, rituals, and summonings.