What are people's thoughts on this? Whether you're an RPG writer/publisher, or just a reader/player, how do you feel about the use of the Kickstarter model for getting games published? Wave of the future? Fad? Doomed to fail? Disaster?
It does seem to be a natural expansion (and somewhat more workable) of the Ransom model which some game designers had been attempting to use for several years now.
But is it kosher or unsavoury? And more importantly, is it likely to be a model that would work?
RPGPundit
I'm out of the loop here. What is the Kickstarter model?
Kickstarter as a model that works well, but only for a select few...
As it exists now, someone who has already had a Kickstarter project must agree to sponser your new project, so it's a limited growth model.
The basic idea is sound though, Monte Cook used a similar model for his Dungeon-a-Day release schedule, and Wolfgang Bauer uses the model and calls it the Open Design Project.
It was originally done by Grant at Columbia Games many years ago he calls it Gameplan Pre-order.
I think it's awesome, but with one caveat: the publisher/designer needs to offer goods that are equal to what they're asking people to chip in.
I haven't seen any rip-offs in the rpg Kickstarters yet, but I have seen some musicians get greedy and price themselves out of contributions. $25 for a CD? That's unreasonable.
Quote from: jeff37923;456686I'm out of the loop here. What is the Kickstarter model?
If you don't mind links in Spanish, here's a good article from Spain (http://www.elpais.com/articulo/Pantallas/Kickstarter/com/busca/dinero/innovadores/elpepirtv/20101104elpepirtv_2/Tes) and another one with the story of a Uruguayan inventor (http://www.elpais.com.uy/suplemento/empresario/tras-un-clic-se-hizo-del-capital/elempre_564253_110506.html).
Personally, I used Kickstarter once, to fund Greg Stolze's
Enchiridion (the rules-only version of
Reign). Good experience, nothing to complain about.
Quote from: JongWK;456693Personally, I used Kickstarter once, to fund Greg Stolze's Enchiridion (the rules-only version of Reign). Good experience, nothing to complain about.
Same here. Only time I used it was regarding Reign Enchiridion. I think it's fine. As an individual, pledge money if you want, don't pledge money if you don't.
I'd previously donated to a comic project. In that case, I was confident that it was already written, they just needed money for printing. It was entirely positive. I'm given to understand that Kickstarter doesn't hand over the money for three weeks after the the pledger period. This, combined with all the other delays in publishing, could combine to delay product to the point of annoyance.
I think its great, but I could be biased. (DungeonMorph Dice (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1764845067/dungeonmorph-dice-dungeon-geomorphs)) I think there's (almost) no downside.
Here's the short description of how Kickstarter works (copied/pasted from earlier text I wrote):
It allows anyone (who has or sets up an account with Amazon) to fund projects of interest to them, safely. The project starter/coordinator describes the project, sets the financial goal and deadline and lists rewards for various pledge levels. The financial goal and deadline may not change, nor may the pledge rewards once someone has made a pledge for that reward. If the project doesn't meet its goal by the deadline everyone keeps their money and the project fails. (The coordinator may re-launch the project if desired.) But if the project meets its goal by the deadline, the project starter receives the funds a couple of weeks later. It is then up to that person to do the project and send the rewards in a reasonable timeframe.
Kickstarter takes 5% in addition to the percentage the publisher would pay for credit card processing. Compared to the 35-40% drivethrurpgnow takes, there's no good reason for a publisher not to put a product up on Kickstarter first. It gives the publisher an extra time window to make a sale, it allows for early feedback on the project, it does generate some additional interest, and those sales cost a good bit less than many other channels. (Note: I started the dice project just because I thought it was a cool idea. Looking at the numbers behind it is an after-the-fact realization for me.)
Also as a publisher, you can also use it to very accurately gauge interest in a project. If you meet the goal you set, you make it. If you don't make the goal then everyone keeps their money and you know the time isn't right for that exact project. But you can relaunch it with some changes if you think it is close or if a commenter gave you a good spin on it.
Here are the few downsides:
-The publisher won't get the money until about 3 weeks after pledging is complete. When a project takes off you might have a desire to make progress on it. If that progress requires the funds, you need to wait a while to get your money or bridge the gap yourself.
-Project creators/starters must be US based currently. (Or at least that was the rule a month ago.)
-Setting rewards is too simple. I would have like to let people choose multiple rewards that add up to their pledge amount (let you choose among options like: a deck of cards, a pdf, a set of dice, make int'l shipping an extra thing to choose, etc.) But Kickstarter only lets backers choose one reward. So for the rest I just encourage people to pledge the correct amount and then we'll sort it out after pledging is complete and I can get contact info.
-I didn't see the condition that a new project creator must be sponsored by an someone who has already done a project. Maybe that's a misunderstanding or a new rule?
-Someone could take your idea and beat you to market with it. (Albeit likely with a lower quality product.) One could rely on the legal system to mitigate that, but unless the other product is very, very close it is difficult. Even if it is possible to pursue, it can be costly and not have much effect in the end.
-There's a chance the project could get funded and then the creator doesn't come through with the rewards. I think that's fairly unlikely, but Kickstarter answer to this is hold the creators accountable through their on-line presences and if you have to use the legal system. In my case I mention my other completed/frequently updated projects and hope that reassures people that I'll come through.
Quote from: jeff37923;456686I'm out of the loop here. What is the Kickstarter model?
Kickstarter is essentially patronage for the Internet age, what the "social media" wonks these days call "crowdsourced funding" or some shit like that.
You create a Kickstarter page for your project, and post videos, pictures, and description of it, as well as setting a target needed to fund the project, and a deadline for that target.
People can then pledge X amount of dollars to support your project, and you can set up benefits that contributers get in exchange for different dollar amounts. Usually the first one is "gets a copy of the project when it's out", especially with game projects. Other stuff for higher amounts might be things like credits mention or incorporation into the work somehow, or original art prints, or whatever other clever bits the creator comes up with.
Once the project's target in pledges is reached, the contributions go through and the project goes under way. I believe there's also some steps in place to make sure the project has to actually happen as well, but I'm fuzzier in my knowledge of that bit.
It's a nifty system, and so far has been used by a lot of people to make a lot of neat things that probably would never have happened otherwise. But success does depend a fair bit on your promotional skills and connectedness with the community.
Quote from: SowelBlack;456829-Setting rewards is too simple. I would have like to let people choose multiple rewards that add up to their pledge amount (let you choose among options like: a deck of cards, a pdf, a set of dice, make int'l shipping an extra thing to choose, etc.)
That would be a nice change to the setup. - currently trying to decide on font, cards, or another set of dice.
My experience with Hexographer made me willing to try the dice. I have yet to buy in to anything on Kickstarter where I haven't had experience with the creator prior to the project. I suspect a large number of people are like that and that there are a limited number people browsing Kickstarter looking for things to try. I don't think someone could rely on Kickstarter alone for marketing their idea.
So I guess the overall feeling is that its positive; is it something that would be revolutionary, though?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;457118So I guess the overall feeling is that its positive; is it something that would be revolutionary, though?
RPGPundit
Revolutionary in what sense?
Does it have the potential to upset D&D's status as the Big Dog of the rpg world? Not at all.
Does it have the potential to move other games away from being published by smaller game companies and toward self-publication? Possibly.
I meant in the second sense. In the sense that PDFs were revolutionary, and Lulu was revolutionary, as means to make small-press RPG publishing far more accessible. Will Kickstarter be another jump on that level, or does it lack something the others had that lead to their success?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;457240I meant in the second sense. In the sense that PDFs were revolutionary, and Lulu was revolutionary, as means to make small-press RPG publishing far more accessible. Will Kickstarter be another jump on that level, or does it lack something the others had that lead to their success?
RPGPundit
I definitely think that, properly utilized, Kickstarter could be a boon for small press game makers, allowing them to get the kind of funding they need to put out a professional level project, without mortgaging the house to do it. I've considered using it myself.
However, RPGs have been pretty slow to get with the times lately. Yeah, they jumped on PDFs early, but what about social networks? What about the iDevices?
It just seems like technological development in the field is pretty behind these days.
Don't know if Kickstarter will be revolutionary, but it's definitely another useful tool for small-press game designers.
I've only followed two projects...Chill 3rd Edition, which failed, and Eldritch Skies.
I would say interest is this is very niche, because with an intangible product such as an RPG game, the people who make the pledges have to share the same vision of the game as the creators, or at at least have enough foresight to know how the project could end up.
I think it has potential, but it has its downsides for a publisher. For me, the biggest downside is that it locks you into a project that has to be fairly tightly defined up front. If you change your mind about something significant, or decide that you'd rather work on something else... well, too bad. You've got the public's money and the public wants their stuff the way it was sold.
I don't offer pre-orders. I don't financially leverage in any way products that I haven't already got finished and proofed. The downsides are numerous, including the need to pay for all the production up front and the loss of marketing exposure, but it has one huge upside for me- I can walk away from a project at any time. If something just isn't working, or it's annoying me, or something brighter and shinier appeals, I can just drop a project and go. I don't owe anybody any money or any explanation because I never took their money in the first place or promised them any rose gardens.
I like my customers, but I like them as customers, not creditors. If I was absolutely certain that I wanted to do an expensive project that I couldn't cover up front, or wanted to fund a print run for an item that was already ready for sale, or some other such cut-and-dried situation, then I might well go in for Kickstarter. But for me, the extra stress that comes from owing my customers would spoil the fun of the work.
Quote from: SineNomine;457299or wanted to fund a print run for an item that was already ready for sale, or some other such cut-and-dried situation, then I might well go in for Kickstarter.
I think that this is where Kickstarter will fit in most of the time. I don't think it will be a huge boon but I think it will help for situations where people would print a thousand copies of their book and then run around to cons praying somebody would buy it. They'd either have the customeers lined up or know ahead of time that it's not going to work and not get stuck with a big printing bill.
Kickstarter is absolutely ridiculous. You want to make something - do it. Don't ask other people to shell out for something before it's done.
It's also great for someone like me, who might have a completed text draft, but no art, layout, or editor. I can finish the initial draft, and use the Kickstarter funds to pay people to get the book properly finished. It might still just go up on Lulu for printing, but at least this way I have the opportunity to bring it up to a level of production I otherwise couldn't possibly afford on my own.
There's a lot of ways to use Kickstarter to fund a project beyond "here's my idea, please fund the entire thing".
Further, for those with difficulty focusing on a single project, I should think having an actual deadline and commitment might be an aid. I know it would help me.
I just pledged at Kickstarter for the first time (new Delta Green novel, Through a Glass, Darkly (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arcdream/through-a-glass-darkly-a-new-delta-green-novel)) and I really like the concept. But as other has mentioned, I think I would only pledge for a product I knew would be worth it. So a DG novel by Dennis Detwiller; I didn't even have to think twice. A new book, rpg or other, by someone I did not know, based solely on a short description, I'm not sure. So I think it's a concept that works best for established people/companies.
I'm wary of all these sponsored models - not for the fear of being ripped off, but what you get at the end of it.
It suggests mechanical design by rote rather than inspired, cooking up a storm sort of design. Dunno, just my gut feeling.
Quote from: One Horse Town;457326I'm wary of all these sponsored models - not for the fear of being ripped off, but what you get at the end of it.
It suggests mechanical design by rote rather than inspired, cooking up a storm sort of design. Dunno, just my gut feeling.
I don't see how.
I don't know about you, but I work better on a deadline.
Quote from: SineNomine;457299I think it has potential, but it has its downsides for a publisher. For me, the biggest downside is that it locks you into a project that has to be fairly tightly defined up front. If you change your mind about something significant, or decide that you'd rather work on something else... well, too bad. You've got the public's money and the public wants their stuff the way it was sold.
Ugh... yeah. I had to make a medium/minor change to my project, but it turned out that everyone who commented said they liked the substitution I made. So it worked out. Still, it could have gone badly.
That said, it looks like I'll need to announce another change that will have a more visible impact to the project. I think people will still be happy with the result because the changes (if they must be done) are purely cosmetic.
I've only supported a couple of projects thus far...Part-Time Gods (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/135802053/part-time-gods) by Third Eye Games, because I am a huge fan of the author's previous works, and I know that the only reason he went with the Kickstarter was to see if he could fund it by GenCon instead of by the end of the year (the original planned publication date).
The second is Caladon Falls (http://www.indiegogo.com/Caladon-Falls) by Savage Mojo, which IS done (the PDF is out), but apparently something, somewhere was preventing them from funding the print run on their own right now.
I don't have the money to throw in premium donations for these things, and I don't have a need to be "written into a setting", so I basically look at it as a pre-order that I don't pay for if the funding falls through.
Quote from: brettmb;457304Kickstarter is absolutely ridiculous. You want to make something - do it. Don't ask other people to shell out for something before it's done.
I'm with you on this when it comes to the "ransom" model; I'm wondering if it makes any difference to you that the "Kickstarter" model doesn't actually make anyone "shell out" UNTIL the project reaches its full level of funding, though?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;457488I'm with you on this when it comes to the "ransom" model; I'm wondering if it makes any difference to you that the "Kickstarter" model doesn't actually make anyone "shell out" UNTIL the project reaches its full level of funding, though?
It's the same exact thing. It's like going out looking for investors. How much of a return on investment are these people going to see?
Quote from: brettmb;457549It's the same exact thing. It's like going out looking for investors. How much of a return on investment are these people going to see?
They either get a game they want, or they keep their money.
Oooh, how horrible.
Quote from: brettmb;457304Kickstarter is absolutely ridiculous. You want to make something - do it. Don't ask other people to shell out for something before it's done.
This ignores several factors.
(1) Projects which require capital in order to exist. Saying "just go make it" might work for a novel, but it's not going to work for a lot of projects -- particularly projects which require manufacturing.
(2) There are cost-savings which become possible in mass production. If you can get a bunch of people onboard with a project before it's produced, it can end up being cheaper for everybody involved.
In practice, Kickstarter is no different than any other system for pre-ordering a product. The only real difference is that it includes more protections for the consumers.
Quote from: J Arcane;457550They either get a game they want, or they keep their money.
Oooh, how horrible.
That's fine if you want to do it as a group, but to expect a company that will ultimately profit from it to solicit donations is a bit dodgy.
Quote from: brettmb;457552That's fine if you want to do it as a group, but to expect a company that will ultimately profit from it to solicit donations is a bit dodgy.
There ain't a lot of venture capitalists out there leaping at the chance to invest in RPGs.
So short of mortgaging their houses and bankrupting their families, how the hell are grade-A RPGs supposed to get made? The standing publishers stopped taking submissions years ago, so that leaves dooming your project to a small imprint or self publishing in your free time while making up for lost talent by recruiting whoever will work for basically free in your favorite forum or IRC channel of choice.
Think of this like an NEA grant, only it comes straight from the contributor instead of through some convoluted tax system and application process.
To imply there's something shady about it when every last detail of the transaction is pretty well established up front, is more than a bit disingenuous and unreasonable.
Quote from: J Arcane;457550They either get a game they want, or they keep their money.
Oooh, how horrible.
Not exactly. The money is committed by the buyer and held in escrow until the project is completed. That capital is frozen. It can't be used for other investments. Why invest in a project when it will provide no return on the investment?
Yes, you get your money back, if the project is not completed, but when?
Also, what happens if the project is changed? If the author changes the goalposts and writes something significantly different than what was originally announced and publishes, are you still obligated to pay?
Yes... because you pre-committed those funds. It takes significant energy and time to secure that return of your investment, and that is something the authors are counting on. Not really a good investment strategy IMO, and one reason I haven't supported any kickstarter project to date.
The responsibility to write a good game/book rests solely on the shoulders of the author. As a fan I feel no obligation to take up any of that slack.
QuoteThe responsibility to write a good game/book rests solely on the shoulders of the author. As a fan I feel no obligation to take up any of that slack.
And it still does. All you're doing is preordering the book, basically, since all but the most minimal contributions usually include a copy of the finished work, along with assorted other benefits depending on what version you're buying.
You're paying for that book to be able to come out in a professional looking form, something that isn't cheap, and isn't easy to secure funding for via traditional means.
This is a dead hobby for basement dwelling nerds, there's not a lot of capital flying around, and funding a professionally illustrated and edited book is not cheap. I don't blame people for getting creative in how they take up the slack in funding a project.
If you don't like it, fine, don't contribute, but implying it's shady somehow, or that the problem rests with anything but your own self-entitled ass, is utterly asinine.
I for one welcome any creative solutions for keeping this RPG thing going outside the walls of one fucking toy company.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;457551This ignores several factors.
(1) Projects which require capital in order to exist. Saying "just go make it" might work for a novel, but it's not going to work for a lot of projects -- particularly projects which require manufacturing.
(2) There are cost-savings which become possible in mass production. If you can get a bunch of people onboard with a project before it's produced, it can end up being cheaper for everybody involved.
In practice, Kickstarter is no different than any other system for pre-ordering a product. The only real difference is that it includes more protections for the consumers.
Not really. It includes more protection for the authors at the expense of the consumers.
Kickstarter is designed to fund small or startup projects, so the costs savings on mass production is insignificant in the larger scheme of things.
The
"one investment" strategy of funding a single kickstarter project doesn't make good sense if you are in investor. I'd rather put my money into an investment that will continually provide an ongoing return like Stocks, Mutual Funds, and Bonds. These are more liquid, are transferable, and also provide a return on the initial investment.
As an investor, you truly get to be more wealthy investing in this manner.
A Kickstarter project I would be willing to invest in? One that provided Stocks, or discounted options to buy stocks or product. That way I'm rewarded for my good judgement of supporting the author/manufacturer.
It's not an investment, you douchewaffle.
Quote from: J Arcane;457579It's not an investment, you douchewaffle.
That's my point. It should be. That's the way to keep more than just one company making rpgs. If you are just going to vanity publish, I'm not interested. You want a game company? I'm on board, along for the ride, and will blow the whistle so everyone knows you are coming. Just want to be able to share in the success.
Quote from: GameDaddy;457580That's my point. It should be. That's the way to keep more than just one company making rpgs.
Hot dogs aren't strawberry cake, either, but you don't see me complaining about it and impugning the morality of the hot dog vendor.
QuoteA Kickstarter project I would be willing to invest in? One that provided Stocks, or discounted options to buy stocks or product.
You get the product for FREE.
How much more of a discount can you offer on FREE?
An economic system will succeed or fail on its own merits -- it doesn't need justification.
Also, how is it vanity publishing if you're actually able to interest people and get them to put money up front? Obviously someone is interested in what you're producing as a product.
Quote from: J Arcane;457581How much more of a discount can you offer on FREE?
Discounts on additional product along with a license to resell.
More than one copy of free product, so I could resell those.
Stock options, for receiving annual dividends (If it is a real company, and not just a one-off vanity publishing attempt).
I could go on, But I have to go earn some real money. Be back later.
Quote from: GameDaddy;457585Discounts on additional product along with a license to resell.
More than one copy of free product, so I could resell those.
Stock options, for receiving annual dividends (If it is a real company, and not just a one-off vanity publishing attempt).
I could go on, But I have to go earn some real money. Be back later.
Real money?
You mean like the stuff you get for trying to sell free energy scams on the internet?
Real moral high ground there, Mr. Venture Capitalist.
Quote from: J Arcane;457574If you don't like it, fine, don't contribute, but implying it's shady somehow, or that the problem rests with anything but your own self-entitled ass, is utterly asinine.
I agree 100%.
However, keep in mind that that the only good thing is making money and only those who already have it deserve to make money. :rolleyes: If you read the anti-kickstarter people's replies with that mentality then you'll see what their real beef with it is.
Quote from: GameDaddy;457575I'd rather put my money into an investment that will continually provide an ongoing return like Stocks, Mutual Funds, and Bonds. These are more liquid, are transferable, and also provide a return on the initial investment.
As an investor, you truly get to be more wealthy investing in this manner.
Yeah, the $15 I pledged for the reign Kickstarter would have been much better spent on stocks. Imagine the money I'd be swimming in from the dividends paid out on $15. Instead all I've got is a game book in return.
My only experience with this was in supporting Reign: Enchiridion.
The only downside that I saw was that I donated $15 for the first copy and $12 for each extra copy after the first and the book ended up selling for $10 each. That is the price you pay for getting your name in the book as a supporter and getting early copies and PDFs.
I guess it was worthwhile even if just to make sure that it got printed.
Quote from: ptingler;457588Yeah, the $15 I pledged for the reign Kickstarter would have been much better spent on stocks. Imagine the money I'd be swimming in from the dividends paid out on $15. Instead all I've got is a game book in return.
My line of thoughts exactly, plus the sarcasm made me laugh :)
Quote from: brettmb;457552That's fine if you want to do it as a group, but to expect a company that will ultimately profit from it to solicit donations is a bit dodgy.
Your definition of "donation" includes "I give you money and then you give me the product I want for it"? That's a... broad definition.
Quote from: GameDaddy;457585Stock options, for receiving annual dividends (If it is a real company, and not just a one-off vanity publishing attempt).
You expect to spend $20 and not only get a copy of the game but also stock options?
You're out of your ever-lovin' mind.
Quote from: GameDaddy;457585Stock options, for receiving annual dividends (If it is a real company, and not just a one-off vanity publishing attempt).
Yeeeaaaah, how many rpg publishers offer stock options? Or are publicly traded?
Whole lot of missing the fucking point of Kickstarter in this thread.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;457609Your definition of "donation" includes "I give you money and then you give me the product I want for it"? That's a... broad definition.
In this case, he paid $15 for a book, but everyone else (non-donations) paid only $10. I would call that getting ripped off.
Quote from: PaladinCA;457589My only experience with this was in supporting Reign: Enchiridion. The only downside that I saw was that I donated $15 for the first copy and $12 for each extra copy after the first and the book ended up selling for $10 each. That is the price you pay for getting your name in the book as a supporter and getting early copies and PDFs.
Quote from: GameDaddy;457569Not exactly. The money is committed by the buyer and held in escrow until the project is completed. That capital is frozen. It can't be used for other investments. Why invest in a project when it will provide no return on the investment?
Yes, you get your money back, if the project is not completed, but when?
Also, what happens if the project is changed? If the author changes the goalposts and writes something significantly different than what was originally announced and publishes, are you still obligated to pay?
Yes... because you pre-committed those funds. It takes significant energy and time to secure that return of your investment, and that is something the authors are counting on. Not really a good investment strategy IMO, and one reason I haven't supported any kickstarter project to date.
The responsibility to write a good game/book rests solely on the shoulders of the author. As a fan I feel no obligation to take up any of that slack.
This is a fair point...hence why I have only kicked in on the two I mentioned. I own every game book by Third Eye Games, and - at worst - only REALLY LIKE the stuff. Most of it I love. I trust that Part-Time Gods will be something I will at least really like, because I know the author's track record.
Even if I weren't already a big fan of Savage Suzerain, I already know what's coming in Caladon Falls...I reviewed the PDF a few weeks ago.
I have no issue with the Kickstarter module, but I also am not going to blindly fund something just because the author or company says "pretty please". Again, I just look at it as a pre-order and nothing more.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;457609You expect to spend $20 and not only get a copy of the game but also stock options?
You're out of your ever-lovin' mind.
$20 is a good price for any good game. If it were something I was normally inclined to buy, and already available, I would buy it in a heartbeat.
...If, I have to fund or underwrite the printing, and am required to put money down upfront, without receiving anything in exchange until such time as enough people commit (And if enough don't commit, then what? I just wasted my time, right?) the game is completed, then yes... I want something extra for that, beyond just the game I would buy anyway.
...and that's another problem, if one is really serious about publishing, why insist on underfunding and just obtaining enough funds to complete one project, when one could use that time so much better, and fund a game publishing company instead, that could support numerous projects?
It would of course be worth more, and stock options or stock would cost more, however the dividends would make it worthwhile. I haven't seen a kickstart company do that yet though. The lack of commitment and also long-term planning from many startup game designers is dismaying.
Quote from: brettmb;457617In this case, he paid $15 for a book, but everyone else (non-donations) paid only $10. I would call that getting ripped off.
You mean the producers put the product on sale after they'd earned back its fixed costs?
You're not really so clueless as to think that this is a practice limited to or originating with Kickstarter, are you?
Quote from: GameDaddy;457656...If, I have to fund or underwrite the printing, and am required to put money down upfront, without receiving anything in exchange until such time as enough people commit (And if enough don't commit, then what? I just wasted my time, right?) the game is completed, then yes... I want something extra for that, beyond just the game I would buy anyway.
I respect your decision not to preorder stuff. But saying that everyone who preorders an item should expect to get stock options in the company is
insane.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;457657I respect your decision not to preorder stuff. But saying that everyone who preorders an item should expect to get stock options in the company is insane.
Well, Kickstarter isn't for everyone. And I do pre-order stuff when companies have made a commitment to publish, and I know it's going to be something I will like.
What about the new game designers, who want to fund a kickstarter project, that don't have an established track record or game design credentials. What's the best way for them?
P.S. I find it interesting that saving ones money for real product and not vaporware is considered
insane. Also interesting to note that it's now considered
insane to expect a bit more from a game designer with no established track record who is approaching me with his hat in his hand becuase he can't scrape up the funds to even publish a few hundred copies of his/her works.
It's not like the bar for tabletop designers is very high when compared to other mediums, and it's not like they don't ever make bad games.
Quote from: GameDaddy;457658P.S. I find it interesting that saving ones money for real product and not vaporware is considered insane.
I've contributed to a number of Kickstarter projects over the last couple of years; not once has the product turned out to be "vaporware." You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
Quote from: misterguignol;457660I've contributed to a number of Kickstarter projects over the last couple of years; not once has the product turned out to be "vaporware." You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
Well, the first two pre-orders I did many years before this became the latest
fad were cancelled, so I ended up wasting both my time and money on those projects, and they were from established RPG companies.
Now, I'm glad some folks are able to publish their own RPG or supplement. Just wish they had more commitment and the balls to dream big and set ambitious goals for themselves instead of insisting on subsisting hand-to-mouth.
Quote from: GameDaddy;457661Well, the first two pre-orders I did many years before this became the latest fad were cancelled, so I ended up wasting both my time and money on those projects, and they were from established RPG companies.
Gosh, maybe this means that people who want so badly for their game to make it to press have more passion about seeing their work through to completion that these complacent "established RPG companies" and are therefore worthy of support. Your anecdote doesn't support your position.
QuoteNow, I'm glad some folks are able to publish their own RPG or supplement. Just wish they had more commitment and the balls to dream big and set ambitious goals for themselves instead of insisting on subsisting hand-to-mouth.
Such as? What more commitment do you expect from someone who wants to make a game than that they...make a game?
Quote from: GameDaddy;457661Well, the first two pre-orders I did many years before this became the latest fad were cancelled, so I ended up wasting both my time and money on those projects, and they were from established RPG companies.
Now, I'm glad some folks are able to publish their own RPG or supplement. Just wish they had more commitment and the balls to dream big and set ambitious goals for themselves instead of insisting on subsisting hand-to-mouth.
The things you have posted here are among the most disingenuous, slanderous, and deliberately obtuse bullshitive ever read.
You continue to top yourself, you complete goddamn batshit asswipe.
Quote from: GameDaddy;457658QuoteI respect your decision not to preorder stuff. But saying that everyone who preorders an item should expect to get stock options in the company is insane.
P.S. I find it interesting that saving ones money for real product and not vaporware is considered insane.
I find it interesting that you're illiterate. I said you were insane for expecting stock options. I actually said that your decision not to preorder stuff was just fine.
(Although referring to all preorders as "vaporware" is edging towards stupid.)
Quote from: brettmb;457552That's fine if you want to do it as a group, but to expect a company that will ultimately profit from it to solicit donations is a bit dodgy.
I'm assuming, however, that with these games the basic premise is like what J Arcane described: basically, people are committing to pre-ordering (not even paying for it unless the project becomes a reality). So they ask you to contribute whatever, $25 lets say and the "reward" for that contribution is a single copy of the completed game when it comes out. You're basically just promising to buy the game, in a way that makes it impossible for you to lose money if the game never comes out, and impossible for the would-be customers to back-out if the game does get completed. Its a two-way guarantee.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;457879I'm assuming, however, that with these games the basic premise is like what J Arcane described: basically, people are committing to pre-ordering (not even paying for it unless the project becomes a reality). So they ask you to contribute whatever, $25 lets say and the "reward" for that contribution is a single copy of the completed game when it comes out. You're basically just promising to buy the game, in a way that makes it impossible for you to lose money if the game never comes out, and impossible for the would-be customers to back-out if the game does get completed. Its a two-way guarantee.
RPGPundit
Yes, that is exactly how it works.
Quote from: RPGPundit;457879I'm assuming, however, that with these games the basic premise is like what J Arcane described: basically, people are committing to pre-ordering (not even paying for it unless the project becomes a reality). So they ask you to contribute whatever, $25 lets say and the "reward" for that contribution is a single copy of the completed game when it comes out. You're basically just promising to buy the game, in a way that makes it impossible for you to lose money if the game never comes out, and impossible for the would-be customers to back-out if the game does get completed. Its a two-way guarantee.
RPGPundit
Yup. That's precisely how it works. You don't lose a dime if they fail to meet their deadline.
Higher contributions generally also come with commensurate bonus product and credit as well.
This can get silly at times; I've seen films that offer Producer credit for especially large contributions ...
Quote from: J Arcane;457883This can get silly at times; I've seen films that offer Producer credit for especially large contributions ...
It would probably be more accurate to give them an Executive Producer credit.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;457905It would probably be more accurate to give them an Executive Producer credit.
I believe that was the case in one instance. I know for $5000 you can buy EP credit on that new RPG movie. $1000 gets you Associate Producer.
Well, I do have one reason not to go with Kickstarter: The black box approval process. I just had a project rejected that was essentially identical to a dozen other projects they've approved in the past (many of which have been successfully funded). Why? Dunno. They don't say and they don't have any mechanism for requesting feedback.
Rather disappointing. I'll be looking at other options.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;458046Well, I do have one reason not to go with Kickstarter: The black box approval process. I just had a project rejected that was essentially identical to a dozen other projects they've approved in the past (many of which have been successfully funded). Why? Dunno. They don't say and they don't have any mechanism for requesting feedback.
Rather disappointing. I'll be looking at other options.
Have you tried Indiegogo? Similar set-up, different company.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;458049Have you tried Indiegogo? Similar set-up, different company.
Screw that. Like I said earlier. It's good for some, not for all. Having your project kicked back is elitism of the worst kind. It's a
you can't make it just because we say so...Call it what you want. What it is is good old fashioned Prejudice. Discrimination.
Federal government calls it racketeering and conspiracy.
It's got no place in gaming. and has no place in Venture funding as well.
Quote from: GameDaddy;458085Screw that. Like I said earlier. It's good for some, not for all. Having your project kicked back is elitism of the worst kind. It's a you can't make it just because we say so...
Call it what you want. What it is is good old fashioned Prejudice. Discrimination.
Federal government calls it racketeering and conspiracy.
It's got no place in gaming. and has no place in Venture funding as well.
Hahahahahaha, you have no idea how funding works, do you?
Why should that site be obligated to host any project? That's like saying every financier should hear out every proposal that crosses their desk, lest they be seen as an elitist or as discriminatory.
Quote from: GameDaddy;458085Screw that. Like I said earlier. It's good for some, not for all. Having your project kicked back is elitism of the worst kind. It's a you can't make it just because we say so...
Call it what you want. What it is is good old fashioned Prejudice. Discrimination.
Federal government calls it racketeering and conspiracy.
It's got no place in gaming. and has no place in Venture funding as well.
So what's your fucking deal, here?
You're laying on the FUD awful fucking thick for someone who appears to have no other interest in the subject.
Is this just your typical psychotic paranoia, or do you have money in this one like you've got money in Tesla?
You seriously need to get some help.
Quote from: GameDaddy;458085Screw that. Like I said earlier. It's good for some, not for all. Having your project kicked back is elitism of the worst kind. It's a you can't make it just because we say so...
So you simultaneously believe that Kickstarter (a) shouldn't exist at all and (b) is the only possible way that a product can exist?
QuoteFederal government calls it racketeering and conspiracy.
Racketeering and conspiracy? Cuckoo as a clock you are.
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;458049Have you tried Indiegogo? Similar set-up, different company.
I'll take a look. I'm also considering 8-bit.
Huh?
Did you see Do:Pilgrims of the Flying Temple. It funded at over 600% of the requested amount. $24,383
It seems to be feast or famine though and it hasn't hit a saturation point yet. It's novel and people are jumping on it. In a year when everyone is using it there may be so much competition that less projects get funded.
Quote from: Saint&Sinner;460526Did you see Do:Pilgrims of the Flying Temple. It funded at over 600% of the requested amount. $24,383
Yes! and it seems you're involved in it.
It's not a revolution, and it might even be a fad, but at least so far, it seems like a handy thing. For me personally it means I don't have to worry about stretching my personal funds or my credit to turn around a large budget. I just started my first Kickstarter, for Conquest of the Universe, mainly because I need a good-sized art budget, much moreso than my previous garage press endeavor.
Some alleged upsides are:
1. Reducing financial insecurity
I give this an A, it does what it says on the tin.
2. Spreading the word
Not sure. I've seen some hits from Kickstarter people I might not have interested otherwise, but I haven't seen a longterm surge in interest. B-, may be upgraded as I get closer to my deadline.
3. Gauging interest
This works pretty much as advertised, however, you are gauging interest on a potential project, rather than the finished one, so a successful funding tells you a lot more than a failed one. I give this a B-, as the utility is questionable, but it seems to do what they say.
4. Engaging your audience
Supposedly, you by getting supporters, people are supposed to feel motivated to give you feedback and help you shape your project. In practice, I'm seeing Internet 101 all over again: 90% of people are lurkers. I give this a D-.
5. No downsides
Basically, there are no downsides. Worst case scenario, the project funds but you never finish it, and you live with guilt and a bad reputation for the rest of your life. But since you suck, you kind of deserve it. Assuming the project is a) mostly completed, b) your life's work, which you will die rather than not complete, or c) blessed with enough goodwill you can finish it whenever, this is basically a free opportunity to borrow money from your customers, and potentially charge a premium on motivated buyers who actually desire to make premium purchases. I give this an A+; Kickstarter is safe for all non-douchebags.
"Safe for all non-douchebags" and "safe from douchebags (for those who participate in it)" are not quite the same thing. I think one of the big points Kickstarter has in its favor is that it is (while not quite safe, at least) safer than just counting on giving your money up front for something that may or may not happen.
RPGPundit
At least if you fund a douchebag, you all drink the Kool-Aid and hop on the comet together.
Quote from: RPGPundit;456677And more importantly, is it likely to be a model that would work?
RPGPundit
As noted, it seems to "work" (produce neutral or good results) for publishers. Now, whether funding hypotheticalware is a good investment for consumers is another question. I think, on the balance, funding cool projects is probably a better use of your lucre than buying a lot of the useless crap gamers tend to buy. How many dungeon tiles do you really need? But it's kind of a personal judment.
I think, if you lay down an amount of money that's comfortable for you, you feel confident in the reputation of the project creator, and you set your expectations to "surprise me," it's definitely a cool thing. But I don't know that those considerations align very well with most or even many gamers. Realistically, I would have to point out it's probably a better investment than spending $15 to be the first to buy some PDF on RPGnow that no one else has rated yet.
Quote from: J Arcane;457574This is a dead hobby for basement dwelling nerds, there's not a lot of capital flying around, and funding a professionally illustrated and edited book is not cheap. I don't blame people for getting creative in how they take up the slack in funding a project.
THIS is where I see Kickstarter most useful.
Quote from: J Arcane;457579It's not an investment, you douchewaffle.
Douchewaffle!!!
Gamedaddy, where are my links to peer reviewed Tesla articles?
Quote from: ptingler;457588However, keep in mind that that the only good thing is making money and only those who already have it deserve to make money. :rolleyes:
The majority of my fellow Americans appear to believe this. Its going to take a few more centuries to excise the "feudal peasant" mentality from the species.
Quote from: J Arcane;457883This can get silly at times; I've seen films that offer Producer credit for especially large contributions ...
Its how its done in most big budget films. Out of the dozen "producers" on a movie, there is usually only one or two people who actually did the work of a producer and everyone else is the head executive of a money fund or a major studio exec jockeying for credits.
The explosion in Producer credits in the last two decades has been laughably bizarre.
Quote from: Spinachcat;466191The majority of my fellow Americans appear to believe this. Its going to take a few more centuries to excise the "feudal peasant" mentality from the species.
There's nothing "feudal" about that mentality. In the middle-ages, people all universally despised merchants as the grubbing parasites that they were. The idea you're referring to is entirely the product of the industrial revolution, which was really the first time that wanting to make PROFIT for its own sake was not publicly viewed as extremely distasteful to say the least.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;466387There's nothing "feudal" about that mentality. In the middle-ages, people all universally despised merchants as the grubbing parasites that they were. The idea you're referring to is entirely the product of the industrial revolution, which was really the first time that wanting to make PROFIT for its own sake was not publicly viewed as extremely distasteful to say the least.
RPGPundit
Yeah, during the Middle Ages, many theologians actually argued that charging more than the valued added for your labor to any product was immoral, irrespective of market demand. Since this would generally preclude economic "bubbles," they may have had a point.
Quote from: pawsplay;466436Yeah, during the Middle Ages, many theologians actually argued that charging more than the valued added for your labor to any product was immoral, irrespective of market demand. Since this would generally preclude economic "bubbles," they may have had a point.
Yes, one has to wonder if they weren't onto something there...
RPGPundit
Quote from: pawsplay;4659894. Engaging your audience
Supposedly, you by getting supporters, people are supposed to feel motivated to give you feedback and help you shape your project. In practice, I'm seeing Internet 101 all over again: 90% of people are lurkers. I give this a D-.
To elaborate on this, after 30/45 days of Kickstarting, and getting 16 backers, and specifically asking anyone for feedback on what they see... I've gotten exactly two pieces of feedback. One is from a guy I went to college with 17 years ago, who posted, "Whoa," in response to an art preview. The other is a privage message from a German, complaining about shipping charges to Europe.
Quote from: pawsplay;467457To elaborate on this, after 30/45 days of Kickstarting, and getting 16 backers, and specifically asking anyone for feedback on what they see... I've gotten exactly two pieces of feedback. One is from a guy I went to college with 17 years ago, who posted, "Whoa," in response to an art preview. The other is a privage message from a German, complaining about shipping charges to Europe.
That truly sucks. On the other hand, I've heard that other projects get a lot of feedback. So what do you think marks the difference between those that do and those that don't?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;467556That truly sucks. On the other hand, I've heard that other projects get a lot of feedback. So what do you think marks the difference between those that do and those that don't?
RPGPundit
I think the projects that get the feedback are those that let the contributors have access to the development-in-progress, draft documents and updated revisions - and allow you to feel useful in testing it out - this last bit is very important and not many designers understand it. It's not just all logical consideration when you're placing a bet.
I'm currently backing the Adventurer Conqueror King (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/142014231/adventurer-conqueror-king?ref=live) system - roleplaying across all levels of classic campaign play.
Starting From The Ground Up (http://www.autarch.co/2011/07/starting-from-the-ground-up-literally/)
Starting From The Ground Up Part 2 (http://www.autarch.co/2011/07/starting-from-the-ground-up-part-ii/)
The Demographic of Heroism (http://www.autarch.co/2011/07/the-demographics-of-heroism/)
The Secret Ratio (http://www.autarch.co/2011/07/the-secret-ratio/)
There's a developers forum, access to draft docs etc. Feedback, testing, proofing - they'll get that level of commitment because they're not treating the contributors as non-participants in the game's evolution.
Quote from: RPGPundit;467556That truly sucks. On the other hand, I've heard that other projects get a lot of feedback. So what do you think marks the difference between those that do and those that don't?
RPGPundit
No idea. I discount Sean !'s theory, however, because I have invited participation in the design process. On the other hand, I've seen projects that go to 300% funding levels that do none of that, and frankly, look like they kind of suck, besides. Perhaps I need a better marketing plan.
I'm going to try to get an alpha playtest up this last week or so and see if I can quadruple my recruitment rate...
It could just be luck I guess, but I would think it more likely that its some kind of capturing of zeitgeist...
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;467634It could just be luck I guess, but I would think it more likely that its some kind of capturing of zeitgeist...
RPGPundit
That's my feeling. In reflection, I am basically trying to carve out a new genre of science-fantasy. It's like all those games that were into zeppelins before zeppelins were cool. I went with 45 days intead of the typical 30 for the Kickstarter, but 90 might have been better. But I was nervous about whether people would be interested in committing themselves now for something that far into the future. Just by how many people have pledged so far, I have a feeling I've tapped into something good, but I don't have people talking about the project or spreading the word. I hope that means I'm on the verge of a breakthrough, not fulfilling the saga of an Australian rock/pop act.
Quote from: RPGPundit;457879I'm assuming, however, that with these games the basic premise is like what J Arcane described: basically, people are committing to pre-ordering (not even paying for it unless the project becomes a reality). So they ask you to contribute whatever, $25 lets say and the "reward" for that contribution is a single copy of the completed game when it comes out. You're basically just promising to buy the game, in a way that makes it impossible for you to lose money if the game never comes out, and impossible for the would-be customers to back-out if the game does get completed. Its a two-way guarantee.
RPGPundit
Yup. This is exactly how it works.
Now, if you promise more money than the contribution you get increasingly growing rewards: more copies of the product, or a better looking printing, or whatnot. For example, the guy who plays Wollowitz in The Big Bang Theory has made a film this way. If you contributed the minimum amount you got your name on the list of contributors, but if you contributed several thousand dollars (can't remember the exact amount) this guy and his wife would hop on a plane, and go watch the movie with you and your friends at your home. If you are a big fan of some artist, this can be a major boon.
If I am not mistaken, in a Delta Green product one of the perks of the highest contributions was that the author (maybe Dennis Detwiler?) would run one of the adventures for you and your friends. Again, this can be greatifyou are a big fanboy.
Kickstarter seems a neat idea to me. Basically, you have nothing to lose as a contributor, and you may get nice perks if you put some more money than the minimum. Of course, that is quite personal: I'm not the fanboy type, so for me getting the author to sign the book or have he coming over to run a game is not a big deal, but I can see how many people would appreciate it.
Anyway, I think that Kickstarter works as long as you can create enthusiasm and have a good pool of followers. People like Greg Stolze do this all the time,and it works because they certainly deliver.
I think part of it too is the audience, of the type of people who are frequenting Kickstartr; I think its still new enough that it has a certain type of subculture, who might be more hip to certain products than others.
That might change, or other sites might show up that offer the same kind of deal to other demographic audiences.
RPGPundit
I think knowing what I know now, without big name recognition, a very long fundraising period is probably called for. Word of mouth can be very powerful, but it is also fitful, especially if you're asking people to invest in someone with an unproven or small track record.