So... what's your position on Kewl Powers? Love em? Hate em? Love the games they're in but can't get rid of 'em? Love games that don't have 'em but you wish they did?
Also, note that my definition of kewl powers is a little broad. I would, for example, include millitary power as being fairly kewl. Same for political power, or even competence with a gun or explosives (you have no idea how KP explosives are, used correctly). So kewl powerz don't necessarily need to be "OMGRAYGUN" or "TEHMAGIC" or "KUNGFUFLURRYKEKEKEKEKEKEKKEE!"
Also, I'm partial to having kewl powers on the offensive, rather than the defensive, side of things. Blowing up buildings, pillaging towns, and stabbing people is generally pretty fun in RPGs, but if there's no risk what's the point?
k3w1 pw0rz suxxorz. Real men don't need 'em. They are for geeky kids who get picked last for the sports teams, and guys who have a big thumbprint on their forehead from their boss or wife.
I always liked "cool shticks", which encompasses both powers and habits. By definition, this would be different, a power is an ability while a habit is just a way to do things a certain way. But from a character's perceptive, the difference is often negligible. The sharpshooter has to have a certain skill to down every opponent with two shots, one in the groin and one in the brain...
It all boils down to neat visual effects. Stuff that defines the way a character acts. Whether this is done with some special mechanic, pure role-playing or just using a generic mechanic the right way doesn't matter much.
That said, I found that D&D's feat system will probably endure the ages. There are some non-D20 systems which already emulated this. Maybe I'm missing some game which did this alredy, but it seems that for the first time in ages a new role-playing mechanism was found (spare me, oh thematic dweebs).
Quote from: SosthenesMaybe I'm missing some game which did this alredy, but it seems that for the first time in ages a new role-playing mechanism was found (spare me, oh thematic dweebs).
Dude, you put out the Theory Beacon. Duck and cover! :D
Quote from: SosthenesI always liked "cool shticks", which encompasses both powers and habits. By definition, this would be different, a power is an ability while a habit is just a way to do things a certain way. But from a character's perceptive, the difference is often negligible. The sharpshooter has to have a certain skill to down every opponent with two shots, one in the groin and one in the brain...
0_o
Um...
Yes?
Win?
|<3\x/1?
Quote from: JimBobOzk3w1 pw0rz suxxorz. Real men don't need 'em. They are for geeky kids who get picked last for the sports teams, and guys who have a big thumbprint on their forehead from their boss or wife.
Pfft! I will pwn you in basketball, football, dodgeball, whatever.
You might have spent your school years losing, but I spent mine in a wilderness-based correctional facility. Carrying trees. Digging privies. I'm alot of things, but picked last in sports ain't one of 'em.
So you play some lame shmuck. I'll be over here wasting eight of you with a fireball.
Quote from: beejazz0_o
Um...
Yes?
Win?
|<3\x/1?
What's wrong with groin hits? ;)
For quite some time, we read the GURPS hit location tables slightly wrong. The whole abdominal region including the groin was region '11', which happened quite often on 3d6... And I've recently read the "Preacher" comics, which have a certain way to give you flashbacks to your pubescent perceptions of cinematic violence...
Anyway, the main gist of the example was that even without explicit "powers", certain modus operandi of the players might be termed "kewl". So even giving up "kewl powers", you'd get a reasonable likenes in the game. If I remember correctly, the thread which spawned this one mentioned Rome as an example of a TV show without supernatural powers. Still, if impaling someone with a mace isn't "kewl", I don't know what...
(I could make a Champions character out of Titus Pullo, I could make a low-level fighter out of him. Mechanics don't matter that much.)
I equate "kewl powers" with cinematic events. Whether this is backed by some feat/advantage/power in the rule system is often not that important.
I tend to get bored by too high a power level. I vastly prefer Batman to Superman, Iron Man to Thor.
-clash
Kewl Powerz or dirt farmers doesn't really matter if the game is built to handle it properly. Most of the games I play in are higher powered, but that's because my group has a surplus of minmaxers. Whatever the power level, there's still always a challenge, so it's all good.
Echoing what Mr. McMurray said, I'll go along for the ride if "kewl powers" are involved if the game is designed properly to provide enough of a challenge to be interesting.
And as long as that challenge is there, the "kewl powers" level can be pretty damn high. For example, I could play Exalted as-is, as long as it wasn't a game of my demigod kung-fu master just beating some endless swaths of "mooks". If it's a game where my demigod kung-fu master is competing with other equally powerful (or more powerful) demigod kung-fu masters, then it would have the potential to be interesting.
Lately, though, my taste is more towards the lower end, more mundane, end of the scale. Where I to do an Exalted game, I'd be more inclined to tinker the damn thing to death, stripping out most of the more cosmic, uber-kewl elements and taking it down to the fairly gritty swords and sorcery setting a'la Glen Cook & Tanith Lee, that seems to have been the core of the setting in the beginning.
But, then, I'm not so inclined. I'm inclined to shamelessly steal bits of color and atmosphere from some of the source books and use them in another, entirely different game.
A question, though: When does something cross over to being "kewl powers"? Is your standard D&D mage such?
Standard DnD mage? Hells yeah!
Evards Black Tentacles is pretty KP...
Quote from: flyingmiceI tend to get bored by too high a power level. I vastly prefer Batman to Superman, Iron Man to Thor.
-clash
I was with you right up until the the very last part. Thor (as done by Jack Kirby) is the perfect superhero.
Batman is pretty awesome. To me, he's the perfect example of well executed KP... omnipotence sans invulnerability, so to speak. He can do damn near anything he pleases, given the right gadget and some time to prepare... but if you shoot him he still bleeds.
When they're in genre like Exalted. Super cool.
When your playing a super super hero. Cool.
When you start out in a street level gritty campaign - but because of levels and feat trees you are one day able to go one on one with a dragon. (with the same PC to whom a house cat was once a legitimate threat.) Not cool
But then D&D is its own genre, so for those that like it, it is super cool.
.
Kewl Powers are fuckin' A numbah one, chief. They come in lots of forms, though, and most games have them if you dig deep enough.
So saying I like them is kinda like saying I like dice. Which I do.
Yeah.
Quote from: JaegerWhen they're in genre like Exalted. Super cool.
.
And what "genre" is Exalted exactly? The annoying as shit overcomplicated system where WW-swine-sluts indulge in the guilty pleasure of the kind of powergaming they have spent the last 15 years accusing others of being "immature play" and the property of the "unwashed masses" while they now excuse it as being "thematic", because secretly they desperately wanted to actually have some kind of fun instead of playing whining beret-wearing creatures-of-the-fucking-night all the time?
RPGPundit
Pundit, you doofus, what the fuck did that have to do with the topic?
We know White Wolf suxxorz, that has nothing to do with whether you enjoy k3w1 pw0rz in your game or not.
Don't threadcrap, as amusing as your mad rants are.
I like Superhero games. By definition we get kewl powerz. Does this mean I'm crap?
Yes... yes it does. I'm sorry.
I find them tiresome and they instantly bog down any game they feature in. In the case of Exalted they turn a quite nicely put together system into a nightmare of page flipping and rule interpretation. I've never really liked super heros and I definitely don't like that vibe infecting other genres.
I like my character to be damn good at what he does.
Now, what manefestation that skill takes, and on what level, depends entirely on genre.
In a DBZ game, being damn good might mean being able to blow up planets.
In D&D it might mean a rogue/assassin who can stick a dagger straight through your kidney before you realize he's even there, or it might mean a sorceror who can throw giant balls of fire from his hands.
And in a game of Recon where the players are greenhorns in Vietnam, it might just mean being able to hit the broadside of a barn, and not pissing my pants at the first sign of a firefight.
In CoC, it might just mean escaping the great and unspeakable evil with only a mild case of paranoid schizophrenia.
Excessive failure isn't fun. I want to be good enough to inspire confidence in my actions, but not so good necessarily that it loses all challenge or dramatic tension. The threshholds change from game to game, and what constitutes success may change from game to game, but the one thing that remains in all of them is that I don't want to feel like a complete fucking putz.
I rather like special powers, not that they have to be the elite of the elite, or anything just something out of the mundane. I have played in fantastic horror-psychic games where the psychics "sense" a tiny bit more than the normal people, and to great effect it was used to investigate, face the horror, or even for the GM to build on the horror (especially as the psychics could feel things "out there" moving but not locate them specifically.)
But for me, I live in the real world, I don't want to play in it. That doesn't mean the PC's have to be the ones with cool powers--I mean Call of Cthulhu can have mundane people against massively monstrous bleeds in reality creatures--and that's enough for me.
For me kewl powerz are stuff that doesn't really exist. Being a highly trained soldier is not a cool power, I've met those guys and that for me takes it outside the realm of kewl powerz.
Kewl powerz are stuff that doesn't really exist.
For me, it rarely adds to a game. Used in small doses it can work well, but all too often they become the point with the possession of kewl powerz taking the place of actual character.
Well, I don't have that many in real life, so I'll welcome them in a game. I think J Arcane nailed it.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYes... yes it does. I'm sorry.
Jeez, man, did you have to tell it like it is?
QuoteI find them tiresome and they instantly bog down any game they feature in. In the case of Exalted they turn a quite nicely put together system into a nightmare of page flipping and rule interpretation.
That's an Exalted thing. and to a degree, a Vampire et al thing. Too many powerz with too many numbers and descriptions to remember.
QuoteI've never really liked super heros and I definitely don't like that vibe infecting other genres.
I've successfully converted your kind before.
The "Superhero Vibe" a problem?
I dislike powers that are poorly defined (apparently because to define is to limit, and limitations are unkewl), so that the interaction between opposing kewl powerz amounts to a bunch of handwaving, and/or the game itself depends on the self-restraint of those endowed with powerz.
I especially dislike the escalative arms races between certain powerz: divination and anti-divination, magical attacks and magical immunities, etc. It's boring. You might as well not have kewl powerz at all if it turns into the story of "the old lady who swallowed a fly"...as it were. In fact I'd say that if the strongest powerz are not those which form the "backbone" of the game at the lowest level, but instead the powerz are layered on in such a way that the "baseline" powerz cease to be relevant after a few cycles of growth through powerz, then there's a serious problem with the game.
This points to three ways of properly doing powerz.
1) Kewl Powerz should never dominate the game. Instead they should act as enhancements or force multipliers.
2) Kewl Powerz should be limited in effect & duration, and should carry a cost that limits their efficiency.
3) Kewl Powerz should work like rock-scissors-paper instead of rock-bigger rock-biggest rock.
Quote from: J ArcaneI like my character to be damn good at what he does.
Now, what manefestation that skill takes, and on what level, depends entirely on genre.
In a DBZ game, being damn good might mean being able to blow up planets.
In D&D it might mean a rogue/assassin who can stick a dagger straight through your kidney before you realize he's even there, or it might mean a sorceror who can throw giant balls of fire from his hands.
And in a game of Recon where the players are greenhorns in Vietnam, it might just mean being able to hit the broadside of a barn, and not pissing my pants at the first sign of a firefight.
In CoC, it might just mean escaping the great and unspeakable evil with only a mild case of paranoid schizophrenia.
Excessive failure isn't fun. I want to be good enough to inspire confidence in my actions, but not so good necessarily that it loses all challenge or dramatic tension. The threshholds change from game to game, and what constitutes success may change from game to game, but the one thing that remains in all of them is that I don't want to feel like a complete fucking putz.
Well, damn, once again someone encapsulates my views and expresses them better than I could. Spot on.
I also don`t think military power qualifies as kewl p0wer. There is a certain down to earthness, and much more plausability involved.
It`s a power fantasy, but one that needs much background data and thinking as well as specialist knowledge to be meaningful.
It needs more effort and the rewards are different than playing a Juicer in RIFTS.
I like both.
Kewl powerz roxxor, which is why I will never make a Limbo Fever character without Double Jointed.
Quote from: flyingmiceI tend to get bored by too high a power level. I vastly prefer Batman to Superman, Iron Man to Thor.
Yeah and Batman and Iron Man have no Kewl Powerz. :rolleyes:
Quote from: BagpussYeah and Batman and Iron Man have no Kewl Powerz. :rolleyes:
Strictly speaking, those two have "kewl t0yz" instead...
Quote from: GrimGentStrictly speaking, those two have "kewl t0yz" instead...
Bingo! Much easier to wrap my head around.
-clash
So fantastic training is okay, and fantastic gadgets is okay, but fantastic powers arn't? :confused:
So a laser gun is okay, but laser vision or eldrich blast isn't?
I like the kewl power where if you fight a monster your guy might win.
Quote from: BagpussSo fantastic training is okay, and fantastic gadgets is okay, but fantastic powers arn't? :confused:
So a laser gun is okay, but laser vision or eldrich blast isn't?
Right. Inside that shell, Iron Man is just a normal guy. What's so hard to understand about that?
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceRight. Inside that shell, Iron Man is just a normal guy. What's so hard to understand about that?
That's not hard to understand, it's just hard to understand why kewl powers coming from technology are fine, but coming from some other source isn't.
Quote from: BagpussThat's not hard to understand, it's just hard to understand why kewl powers coming from technology are fine, but coming from some other source isn't.
Because a guy walking around with laser beams coming out of his eyes is not a normal guy.
-clash
I don't mind Kewl powerz in supres games, then I don't like supers games anyway. :)
Quote from: flyingmiceBecause a guy walking around with laser beams coming out of his eyes is not a normal guy.
-clash
It is in MY neck of the woods....
Quote from: flyingmiceBecause a guy walking around with laser beams coming out of his eyes is not a normal guy.
So someone who straps himself into an experimental suit that hurls him across the sky is normal?
Believe me, I don't know much, but I do know that people who are into tech _that_ much surely aren't normal. So give the computer geek closest to you a big hug.
This public service announcement has been brought to you by the PWTCAF (Programmers Wanting To Cop A Feel).
Quote from: SpikeIt is in MY neck of the woods....
I'd say the same thing if I were an insane pika of DOOM instead of an avenging aerial rodent. :D
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceBecause a guy walking around with laser beams coming out of his eyes is not a normal guy.
I'm looking around my cube farm and thinking back to my time in various schools and various social places and it seems to me that guys walking around in giant suits of armor and/or trained in mystic martial arts while using self-invented techno toys to fight crime are also not normal guys, nor are their toys normal.
Quote from: flyingmiceBecause a guy walking around with laser beams coming out of his eyes is not a normal guy.
Yeah but roleplaying games cover more genre's than just normal guys. Why have a thread about a hate on for Kewl Powers, when Iron Man has the same sort of Kewl Powers as Superman, or a D&D Wizard or Vampire/Werewolf, just from a different source?
Quote from: flyingmiceI'd say the same thing if I were an insane pika of DOOM instead of an avenging aerial rodent. :D
-clash
Ain't it the truth? Of course, you get to fly...;)
Quote from: BagpussYeah but roleplaying games cover more genre's than just normal guys. Why have a thread about a hate on for Kewl Powers, when Iron Man has the same sort of Kewl Powers as Superman, or a D&D Wizard or Vampire/Werewolf, just from a different source?
Who said anything about hate? We're just talking preference here.
-clash
Quote from: James McMurrayI'm looking around my cube farm and thinking back to my time in various schools and various social places and it seems to me that guys walking around in giant suits of armor and/or trained in mystic martial arts while using self-invented techno toys to fight crime are also not normal guys, nor are their toys normal.
I'm sure if you ran a battery of medical tests, they'd register within the human norm. Mr. Hot-Melting-Glances would be a tad different.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceI'm sure if you ran a battery of medical tests, they'd register within the human norm. Mr. Hot-Melting-Glances would be a tad different.
How well would Dr. Strange really do on his Psych Eval?
Quote from: jrientsHow well would Dr. Strange really do on his Psych Eval?
Dr. Strange is kinda the poster boy for Kewl Powrz. :D
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceDr. Strange is kinda the poster boy for Kewl Powrz. :D
That's my point. He's a laid back master of spell-fu. Meanwhile our pals Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark would come back far more messed up.
Quote from: flyingmiceRight. Inside that shell, Iron Man is just a normal guy. What's so hard to understand about that?
-clash
Not since the Extremis retrovirus....
He's now a superhuman who can control machines (I loved the artwork in the storyline and thought it well done, but hated the implications of him not being a normal man inside the suit anymore.)
Oh: and all tests on DR. Strange would show him a normal man. "Spell Fu" counts as special training :)
Quote from: flyingmiceI'm sure if you ran a battery of medical tests, they'd register within the human norm. Mr. Hot-Melting-Glances would be a tad different.
-clash
So? The comic book is called "Iron Man," not "Tony Stark, Normal Guy Wandering Around Doing Normal Things, Without Any Kewl Abilties." It isn't about him being a normal guy, it's about him being a scary dude with kewl powerz. His powers happen to come wrapped in a haze of techno-babble, but that doesn't make them any less kewl.
To put it in gamer terms, if he was playing a super hero game he'd have lots of powers on his sheet. Depending on the game his sheet would look almost identical to the same character with an identical suite of powers that came from being a mutant instead of a techie. He will probably get bonus build points / power points / whatever you wanna call them in return for having taken the "no trust me, I'm not really imbued with kewl powerz" flaw. Alternatively it might cost him more build points because unlike Superman he can make up powers on the spot if you give him enough time and a lab.
In essence, he's superman but his kryptonite is instead labelled "not wearing suit."
Quote from: James McMurrayIn essence, he's superman but his kryptonite is instead labelled "not wearing suit."
Wow. I've never heard it put that way.
Is that good or bad?
Edit:
I thought of a better comparison I think. Waaay back in the day Thor was mystically tied to a half-crippled doctor. His Hammer was turned into a cane, and if he was in his human form he could tap his cane and become Thor, God of Thunder. It wasn't a disguise though, so if he didn't have his cane he really was screwed. Tony Stark, if he doesn't have his armor, is screwed in the same manner.
I think we can all agree that Thor has Kewl Powerz. Being unable to use them some of the time doesn't lessen their cool factor, it just gives the author a plot device to use if he needs to put you in a situation that Iron Man or Thor could easily get out of.
Quote from: James McMurrayIs that good or bad?
Edit:
I thought of a better comparison I think. Waaay back in the day Thor was mystically tied to a half-crippled doctor. His Hammer was turned into a cane, and if he was in his human form he could tap his cane and become Thor, God of Thunder. It wasn't a disguise though, so if he didn't have his cane he really was screwed. Tony Stark, if he doesn't have his armor, is screwed in the same manner.
I think we can all agree that Thor has Kewl Powerz. Being unable to use them some of the time doesn't lessen their cool factor, it just gives the author a plot device to use if he needs to put you in a situation that Iron Man or Thor could easily get out of.
That's a good point. I remember the old Thor, the one with the cane, and thought he was pretty cool - though not one of my faves - but I stopped reading it when he became Thor all the time. I stopped reading Iron Man before whatever it is Tim mentioned happened to him, so I never knew about that. If Thor is Thor all the time, and Tony Stark doesn't need his suit, then they're the same thing essentially. I've stopped reading comics nowadays, except for TMNT, mostly because of the power creep. Everyone is getting more powerful gradually over time.
Titles I used to love:
Batman
Iron Man
Daredevil
Green Arrow
etc.
-clash
Right, I'm not especially inclined to differentiate powerz based purely on whether they're built into a character or gee-whiz gadgetry. But I feel that gadgetry vs. personal magic tends to correlate pretty well in practice with whether the powerz are limited in effect & duration. Related to this I also feel that personal magic is more susceptible to the fallacy that "if you really, really care, you will win", as if magic runs on emotion. Then again I base this more on Sailor Moon than on games.
Who says magic doesn't run on emotion? And how do they know?
Quote from: James McMurrayWho says magic doesn't run on emotion? And how do they know?
*Zaps James with lightning*
I do and because I say so, respectively.;)
Somebody get that man his medicine. Either he's hallucinating or he has the power to zap people with lightning they can't sense to no effect. In either case, he deserves some mind altering hallucinogens. :)
Quote from: James McMurrayIn either case, he deserves some mind altering hallucinogens. :)
Mind-altering hallucinogens all around!
But getting back to the on-topic-ness, I think that it's not all about whether the power is inherent. It's about what powers you don't have. For example, let's say that I wear a mask and can kill anybody just by looking at them (taking the mask off... and for the sake of the argument, one target at a time). This is a little extreme, but even with this I'm vulnerable. Some dude can just snipe me from the rooftops. I am now faced with the challenge of needing to know what and where my threats are. The problem isn't whether I can kill a man, but who I should kill.
Wow... I'm developing a hankering for divination-vs-illusion style "control the flow of information" shiz now.
Quote from: James McMurrayWho says magic doesn't run on emotion? And how do they know?
There's another thread for that, I think (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=2277)
But really I'm just talking about the cliche, often found in anime, but not exclusively in anime, where the villain says something really upsetting, or the villain attacks someone the hero cares about, and the hero's chi/mana/whatever suddenly flows at 150% due to the surge of emotion and REALLY NOT WANTING TO LET THE BAD GUYS WIN.
While it can be seen as a representation of "focus in the clutch" or "rising to the occasion", the portrayal of actual magical energy flowing from the hero conveys a message of "all you need to win is to believe and emote strongly", which is juvenile. And in the context of a game, it points toward handwaving unless you have some sort of metagame resource mechanic to limit the frequency and depth of "caring a whole lot".
Whereas powers that depend on gadgets are more clearly limited in power: the user might achieve enormous
focus at a crucial point, but a pistol still isn't going to blow up an MBT.
Quote from: Elliot WilenThere's another thread for that, I think (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=2277)
But really I'm just talking about the cliche, often found in anime, but not exclusively in anime, where the villain says something really upsetting, or the villain attacks someone the hero cares about, and the hero's chi/mana/whatever suddenly flows at 150% due to the surge of emotion and REALLY NOT WANTING TO LET THE BAD GUYS WIN.
While it can be seen as a representation of "focus in the clutch" or "rising to the occasion", the portrayal of actual magical energy flowing from the hero conveys a message of "all you need to win is to believe and emote strongly", which is juvenile. And in the context of a game, it points toward handwaving unless you have some sort of metagame resource mechanic to limit the frequency and depth of "caring a whole lot".
Whereas powers that depend on gadgets are more clearly limited in power: the user might achieve enormous focus at a crucial point, but a pistol still isn't going to blow up an MBT.
In anime? I'm remembering at least a few cases where the exact opposite happened.
"His destrado is manifesting!"
"His ego barrier is under attack!"
"But how can the pilot's synch ratio be over 400%?"
Of course, these are all from the same series, but...
It's kind of a side issue, but yeah... I'm okay with the "morale bonus" so long as the reverse holds true and people can be "demoralized."
In the land of the blind, the man who sees has kewl powerz.
If you've got powerz, but no one's around to see, are they kewl? Are you?
I'm always kewl, even moreso when there's nobody around to see.
Quote from: beejazzSo... what's your position on Kewl Powers? Love em? Hate em? Love the games they're in but can't get rid of 'em? Love games that don't have 'em but you wish they did?
I'm neither here nor that about k3wl powerz, really. I could have them or not have them. Where I have an issue is that they are not the most interesting thing in the game and often distract from the thing that is actually interesting.