Quote from: Elfdart;906819Bren, watch the cave scene in TESB and observe the snakes and lizards inside. They are earth creatures.

Are they?

Or did the prop department use real earth creatures because they couldn't book a flight to Degoabah. Does anyone on screen call those creatures by earth names e.g. "rats, king snakes, boa constrictors and monitor lizards"?

Now I wouldn't be surprised if some creatures include an earth-type name (probably in English) because words like hawk, bat, slug, worm, and goat are evocative for the audience in a way that bantha and taun-tuan are not. We see them depicted in the movie so we don't need an evocative name, but a lot of listed Star Wars creatures are first encountered in a book. So we get names like Akk Dog, Blase tree goat, Blenjeel Sand Worm, Clawbird, Colo claw fish, Condor dragon, Dashta eels, Dragon snake (which is from Dagobah and might have been what they used a boa to mimic), Duracrete slug, Felucian ground beetle, Firaxan shark, Glim worm, Goffbird, Hawk-bat, Jyykle vultures, Kath hounds, K'lor Slugs, Knobby White Spider, Kowakian monkey-lizard, Krayt dragon, Kybucks, Lava flea, Mygeetoan yaks, Nabooan tusk-cat, Nek Battle Dogs, Pylat bird, Rong boars, Shell Spider, the unforgettable Space slug, Spice spider, Stone mite, Storm beast, Swamp slug, Tunnel snakes, Wyrwulves, Yorik coral.

But so far as I can tell, none of those creatures is supposed to be an actual earth creature even if a couple look like earth creatures.

Quote from: daniel_ream;904553GoT is basically the War of the Roses with the serial numbers filed off.  And there's the rub: the War of the Roses is the same way.  If you read up on the history of it, there's tons of people who look like they're about to become the breakaway protagonist and then BAM murdered, poisoned or just dead of syphilis. You lose track of them all after a while.

Dark Albion details them all, in its history and NPCs chapters!

And yes, GoT got almost everything non-blatant-fantasy from the War of the Roses.  Not only that, but Shakespeare did GoT first, with his historical plays. They were the GoT of the 16th century, and at the time were among his most popular works.

Quote from: RPGPundit;907685Dark Albion details them all, in its history and NPCs chapters!

And yes, GoT got almost everything non-blatant-fantasy from the War of the Roses.  Not only that, but Shakespeare did GoT first, with his historical plays. They were the GoT of the 16th century, and at the time were among his most popular works.

I'm more interested in the blatant fantasy stuff. For example, the way GoT uses dragons and their connection to Old Valyria has a very strong Melnibonean vibe to it. Doomed city, used to use dragons in war, remaining dragons dwindled after the fall of the kingdom, ruled by mad kings/emperors, survivors of destruction flee to other continents. The surviving nobility even has really white skin/blond hair, reminiscent of Elric the albino emperor, and Elric has a romantic relationship with a close relative (cousin,) as the Valyrian nobility and their descendants have a reputation for brother/sister marriages. So I'm wondering "Did Martin just 'borrow' some elements from Moorcock, or is it more of a commentary on Moorcock?"

And speaking of which, I saw a list recently of 20 or 50 fantasy novels that are like A Game of Thrones, for those who have to wait for either the books or TV series to continue. Elric of Melnibone is mentioned, which is a good call, because there's a lot of intrigue and betrayal and cataclysm and a bunch of good characters dying. But some of the others were really out there. I mean, Watership Down? Really? How is that like A Game of Thrones?

Quote from: talysman;907695I mean, Watership Down? Really? How is that like A Game of Thrones?

They both were adapted into table top RPGs?

Quote from: talysman;907695Watership Down? Really? How is that like A Game of Thrones?

...because there's a lot of intrigue and betrayal and cataclysm and a bunch of good characters dying?

Quote from: talysman;907695Did Martin just 'borrow' some elements from Moorcock

Martin's never been terribly original.

Quote from: Baulderstone;904171Darth Vader is not real.

You shut your dirty mouth! :mad:

()

Quote from: daniel_ream;907711...because there's a lot of intrigue and betrayal and cataclysm and a bunch of good characters dying?

Both sold a lot of books?

Quote from: daniel_ream;907712Martin's never been terribly original.

Martin's genius was to pillage history and repackage it for a generation of readers who are largely ignorant of history. So now when a fantasy author includes a wall to keep barbarians back, a culture of steppe nomads, or intrigue over paternity and succession, he gets accused of ripping off Martin instead of being inspired by the same sources that inspired Martin. He looted Herodotus, the Hundred Years War, and the Wars of the Roses so shamelessly that they're basically a poisoned well for any other author.

Quote from: Haffrung;907749Martin's genius was to pillage history and repackage it for a generation of readers who are largely ignorant of history. So now when a fantasy author includes a wall to keep barbarians back, a culture of steppe nomads, or intrigue over paternity and succession, he gets accused of ripping off Martin instead of being inspired by the same sources that inspired Martin. He looted Herodotus, the Hundred Years War, and the Wars of the Roses so shamelessly that they're basically a poisoned well for any other author.

I don't know if this is quite fair.  Good authors barrow, steal and reinvent, and history and our imaginings about history are the primary source for every fantasy story and setting that I can think of.  Martin's only crime here is that he is ridiculously popular.

Quote from: Haffrung;907749Martin's genius was to pillage history and repackage it for a generation of readers who are largely ignorant of history.

I wouldn't call it genius.  Offhand, David Gemmell, David Duncan, Naomi Novik, L. Sprague de Camp, and tons of others have done it.  It's also not new; Diana Wynne Jones wrote an entire book parodying the habit in 1996.

As far as Martin goes, he stole from War of the Roses, Moorcock, sure, but let's not forget Dune.  The noble lord gets pulled into a political trap he can't avoid surrounded by enemies while his bastard son (or son that shouldn't have been conceived) is the Kwisatz Haderach/Azor Azhai the Prince that was Promised and said son's abilities only manifest after he dwells with the exiled Fremen/Wildlings and dies to be reborn...and don't forget the Otherworldly mother and magical little sister.

Quote from: Madprofessor;907762I don't know if this is quite fair.  Good authors barrow, steal and reinvent, and history and our imaginings about history are the primary source for every fantasy story and setting that I can think of.  Martin's only crime here is that he is ridiculously popular.

Haters gonna hate.

Quote from: Madprofessor;907762I don't know if this is quite fair.  Good authors barrow, steal and reinvent, and history and our imaginings about history are the primary source for every fantasy story and setting that I can think of.  Martin's only crime here is that he is ridiculously popular.

I would amend this to: "Martin's only crime here is his execution of his reinvention is excellent, and it has made him ridiculously popular."

George doesn't hide *any* of his influences. He's pretty candid about them. I find the use of saying he's "stealing" from history rather silly in light of that fact. But GoT is damned good character-writing, plot be damned. He deserves the praise he's earned.

Quote from: CRKrueger;907801As far as Martin goes, he stole from War of the Roses, Moorcock, sure, but let's not forget Dune.  The noble lord gets pulled into a political trap he can't avoid surrounded by enemies while his bastard son (or son that shouldn't have been conceived) is the Kwisatz Haderach/Azor Azhai the Prince that was Promised and said son's abilities only manifest after he dwells with the exiled Fremen/Wildlings and dies to be reborn...and don't forget the Otherworldly mother and magical little sister.

Nice. Herbert's one of my favorite writers. It's hard to ignore these points underneath the dressing of GoT for me. Herbert, now there's a guy that deserves the HBO-treatment.