Quote from: Future Villain Band;904366How are there no humans in Star Wars?

Oops. My bad. I left out a couple of crucial words. Star Wars does have humans. Doesn't have earth animals.

"Interesting" is not necessarily the same as "gameable."

Now somebody fetch me a beer.

Given the way it is phrased "generally true, allowing for a few rare exceptions" I'd say yes. Most fantasy worlds don't interest me anywhere near as much as the real world, but a very few do interest me.

Quote from: Trond;904377Given the way it is phrased "generally true, allowing for a few rare exceptions" I'd say yes. Most fantasy worlds don't interest me anywhere near as much as the real world, but a very few do interest me.

Where as to a lot of people I've gamed with (which I am stressing is not fact, but purely anecdotal), they don't care about the real world or history, but they can recite lore from a number of fantasy books and RPG settings, two of the biggest in my area right now:  The Forgotten Realms and Game of Thrones.

Quote from: Thornhammer;904348Eh, it's utterly dependent on the setting and the individual reading it.  40K has lots of silly names and people that mean nothing, and I love that setting to *death.*  I can root around in background minutiae for hours and hours and be happy.  

I have tried Tekumel before and I just bounce right the fuck off it.  And I'm completely certain there are people who can swim in Tekumel lore, rattling off the 42nd descendent of Azhcb'asdkh the Small Chested, but eyes glaze over at the distinction between the different companies of a Space Marine Chapter.

And on point, I don't really agree with Hite on this point, but Earth *can* be a great setting.  If I'd rather be imagining the worlds of the Koronus Expanse, though, Earth just ain't gonna cut it.

Couldn't agree with you more! I had the same issue you had with Tekumel with both 40K and WHFB, so I think you're right - it's all about what interests one. As for real world stuff, I could bore everyone to tears with my lore about the Great Western Railway and why the patent 'Instanter' coupling is so superior for goods wagons...

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;904145Back in 2010 Kenneth Hite asserted this:



(Link for those who want to read the post this quote comes from: http://princeofcairo.livejournal.com/152308.html)

In 2012 he expanded on and firmed up this opinion with the first segment of this podcast:
http://www.kenandrobintalkaboutstuff.com/index.php/episode-4-purely-medicinal/

Now, this is obviously a controversial statement for a tabletop designer, but is he wrong? How do you feel about it?

It's controversial? Why:)?

There are settings that I like, some that I like a lot, but the best I can say about a setting is "it comes so close to the real world that it's almost indistinguishable".

The real world is definitely more interesting that any fantasy setting (I particularly agree with Hite's statements about "Kragar the Barbarian").  But it's not necessarily better for roleplaying.  There are a number of issues faced with roleplaying in a real-world setting, like the need to really research the hell out of it and how to handle it when you get things wrong or a player knows more about the setting that the GM.  And not all interesting settings are easy to figure out how to game in.

As the question is precisely stated, I would have to agree.

However, the real world/Earth has certain limits. It is unparalleled as a singular source for ideas, but there is still many things you can't do with it. And you can gleefully pilfer Earth and make a not-Earth out of your favorite parts.

Quote from: Omega;904353Kenneth Hite = moron.

No. Just no.

I don't always agree with him, but I'd never make the mistake of thinking he is dumb. Not knowing you and having spoken and listened to Ken, making a statement like this paints you as the moron.

Quote from: Bren;904359Tekumel has humans, while Star Wars (a well known campaign setting) doesn't have earth animals. Though any other world setting will typically have some type of herd animals of various sizes, predators (solo and/or pack) of various sizes, flying creatures (including predators), and some (almost always humanoid) species for the PCs to be.

Tekumel even includes an in universe reason why it has humans (from Earth no less) but not other terrestrial species. I am not sure if Star Wars really gives us a reason why there are humans in that galaxy far, far, away, but given the profusion of other humanoid types humans are not outside the bounds of likely diversity.

Traveller did include a whole set of tables for generating animal encounters by ecological niche, but the results were completely lacking in flavor. No description and no real hooks to hang an adventure on.

The biggest problem I have with Tekumel is that so much of it has very little to connect to my culture. It is IIRC inspired in part by Earth cultures in Southern Asia and the Middle East, my culture is north eastern North American and north western European, not much help in understanding teh Empire of the Petal Throne. As for the fauna and flora, well, some of it is non-native to Tekumel, and the native stuff is not closely modeled on Earth forms, and it is all named in very foriegn languages. I want to explore Tekumel and dive into its richness. But it is so hard for me to keep it all straight.

Blue Planet gives us a foreign ecosystem, but at least all the creatures in the bestiary were apparently named by English speakers so the names have at least some resonance with me.

If you look at popular movies, books, TV shows, and games, I don't know how anyone can honestly say that we live in a society where the real world is regarded as more interesting than fantasy worlds. Does anyone really think a movie studio today would pony up $200 million to produce a film about Cortez conquest of Mexico - surely one of the most spectacular and dramatic events in history? When they could instead put that money towards another Star Wars sequel, a new Marvel franchise (Doctor Strange!), or a remake of the Princess Bride?

I agree with the basic premise of "No invented setting is as interesting as the real world."  Not because of the depth and intricacies of history (or the lack of it in most RPG settings)... but because over the last five thousand years, human beings have been so incredibly inventive when it comes to social structure, methods of war, supernatural superstitions, ways of worship, concepts of crime and punishment, what constitutes ethical behaviour and so on.

Leaving super science aside, there is no setting out there which does anything which humanity itself hasn't already replicated or believed was true. Most people have no concept of how weird some human cultures have been, or still are today in the most remote corners of the world.

Theocracies - we've already done it.
Organised cannibalism to gain magical power or protection - done it.
Employment or belief based caste systems - done it.
Weird methods of execution - we've done them all.
Worship of conjoined children as incarnated gods - done it.
Conditioned members of society to willingly accept human sacrifice - done it.
Circumcision (either sex) - seems to be a popular one humanity repeatedly returns to.
Forced cult or rank promotion on killing the person whose shoes you wish to fill - done it.
Consuming the ashes of dead relatives to pass on knowledge - done it.
Kidnapping your wife or husband to be, possibly forcefully - done it.
Status gains from bull jumping, lion slaying, or single-handedly tackling any other dangerous beast (monster) - done it.
Imparted magical powers by the eating/smoking/drinking of exotic substances, colour of skin, or by tattooing one's face - done it.
Fought wars of regional conquest by playing a sport or ritualised non-lethal combat - done it.
Forced manhood ceremonies by forcing suicidal idiocies like bungy jumping with vines tied around legs - done it.
Property only owned by women, not men - done it.
Throwing babies from temple roofs to bless them - done it.
Exhuming your dead to show love and deference to ancestors, by dancing or sleeping with them - done it.
Engaged in societal geriatricide when old folks become useless - done it.
Based an economy on disk of ivory, feathers or slabs of chocolate - done it.
Slaying kings or high priests when famines strike - done it.
Ritualised beating of men who seek the same bride until the last man standing - done it.
Burning, burying alive, or some other form of death for the wife and household when the husband dies - done it.
Taking weather auguries (or other societal actions) based on the behaviour of an animal - might sound familiar.
Binding heads, feet, necks, etc to deform the human body as a sign of beauty, rank or a means of granting magical power - done it.
Engaged in self mutilation to show grief/respect/solidarity - done it.
Refused marriage until the 'boy' kills somebody in battle first - done it.
Every possible form of political structure - well all those terms in the encyclopaedia came from somewhere.
And don't even get me started on the myriad of religions and associate methods of worship people have seriously believed in over the millennia...

If you start reading up on ancient and near-modern societies across the continents, you'll discover even stranger behaviour and social structures. This is why, for me, invented settings are simply bland and unimaginative when compared to what humanity has itself done in the real world.

Quote from: Omega;904353Kenneth Hite = moron.

Next question.

Do what now?

Quote from: Haffrung;904484If you look at popular movies, books, TV shows, and games, I don't know how anyone can honestly say that we live in a society where the real world is regarded as more interesting than fantasy worlds. Does anyone really think a movie studio today would pony up $200 million to produce a film about Cortez conquest of Mexico - surely one of the most spectacular and dramatic events in history? When they could instead put that money towards another Star Wars sequel, a new Marvel franchise (Doctor Strange!), or a remake of the Princess Bride?

TV and movie production studios have motivations other than making things interesting.  Honestly, if you can't figure out why no studio today would touch a Cortez' conquest of Mexico adventure pic with a ten foot pole for reason other than lack of interest....

The book Sleepless in Hollywood: Tales From the New Abnormal describes why movies get made these days.  It has everything to do with ROI and risk, not interest.

Quote from: DavetheLost;904482I am not sure if Star Wars really gives us a reason why there are humans in that galaxy far, far, away...

Star Wars doesn't provide a reason anymore than Flash Gordon explained why there were people on Mongo who looked and acted like humans.

QuoteTraveller did include a whole set of tables for generating animal encounters by ecological niche, but the results were completely lacking in flavor. No description and no real hooks to hang an adventure on.

Traveller rules were masters of the bland. Your character sheet was just a multiplace hexadecimal number. The GM had to add flavor.

Presumably explorers would have named things using some evocative names similar to mountain lion, Tasmanian Devil, the Tasmanian tiger or Tasmanian wolf (Thylacinus cynocephalus), Cape Buffalo, and the Komodo Dragon. If there is a native population toss in some critters with names derived from the native lingo like kangaroo which derives from the Guugu Yimithirr word gangurru, referring to grey kangaroos. The name was first recorded as "kanguru."

On first contact planets, the GM could come up with a good description and then let the PCs name critters they encounter.

QuoteThe biggest problem I have with Tekumel is that so much of it has very little to connect to my culture.

You say problem, I say feature...

Quote from: Haffrung;904484Does anyone really think a movie studio today would pony up $200 million to produce a film about Cortez conquest of Mexico - surely one of the most spectacular and dramatic events in history? When they could instead put that money towards another Star Wars sequel, a new Marvel franchise (Doctor Strange!), or a remake of the Princess Bride?

Isn't it time for yet another sequel in the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise?

Quote from: Omega;904353Kenneth Hite = moron.

Next question.

Omega = Troll.

Next question.