Quote from: Nexus;970365Thanks, Voros, Snowman. Sounds like a true trainwreck. Almost makes me want to start a facebook account just to get a look at it.

I'll share a highlight with you to save the effort.

Quote from: Mark Rein-HagenI may not have a Trans developer on the team (currently that is), but I do work with Trans folk from countries where it is a death sentence. Tbilisi is very much a middle east/central asian refuge. Last week we helped a fleeing Kazakh get shelter and a short respite.

I understand where you are coming from, I share your ideals, but I don't really have time for internet liberals and the politics of outrage.

Check out the Astraea Foundation, they do brave work. Maybe put your money where your mouth is? We really need support. Button is on the top right.

Or damnit, just travel instead of vacation. See the world as it really is and meet the real people who live in it.

Sorry to be so brusque but its late and I am tired. Especially tired of being attacked by fellow travelers for trying to make a living as an artist.

https://www.astraeafoundation.org/

Of course, Holden and friends steadfastly ignore this comment, as they have never actually done anything for anybody unless you consider Internet bullying to be a form of philanthropy.

Quote from: Baulderstone;970372I'll share a highlight with you to save the effort.



Of course, Holden and friends steadfastly ignore this comment, as they have never actually done anything for anybody unless you consider Internet bullying to be a form of philanthropy.

Yeah, it sounds like that sanctimonious arrogant son of biitch... I despise Holden personally.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970371I met Mark in an online Q&A for a Kickstarter for one of his newer games he was trying to launch. Nice guy with a great sense of humor.

He doesn't deserve the crap those people gave him on Facebook. He deserves the games that he creates to succeed.

I will always remember my conversation with him as a great experience. I learned a lot of things from it. And have always wished him the best. Regardless of our differing tastes.

Vampire: The Masquerade would have been a very different game. If he had been the one in control. It would have evolved over time to reflect that. And I would have really loved to have seen the fruits of Mark's vision.

Instead. We got the inmates running the asylum. After Mark was driven out.

OPP and their freelancers are still those inmates. And apparently. They haven't learned a thing from their continual string of failures. From the fact that they drove the original White Wolf into the ground.

Mark Rein-Hagen gets a lot of crap as the creator of the World of Darkness, but both early Ars Magica and early World of Darkness were solidly playable games, and the long treadmill of books lacking any gameable content comes later.

I don't know if there is really an alternative vision where Rein-Hagen stayed in control. I get the feeling he didn't have a lot of interest in long-term development. He did some great stuff for Ars Magica and moved on. He did the same with Vampire. After a few years of WoD, he was tired of that and began working on Exile, his science-fiction game. When White Wolf killed it during development, he moved on from the company. I think he was done with Vampire at the time.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300Now someone upthread mentioned me being triggered, and I found that amusing. The whole purpose, pretty much the entire goal of gaming,

I've generally found that when someone starts telling me what's the whole purpose and the entire goal of something...that person needs to leathe rn a) more about the subject and b) humility (hint: the purpose might differ for other people).
The general observation holds true in this case, alas:).

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300I have found that nowhere in the above definition of a game is said game required to contain sex, or violence, abuse, or any triggering behaviors, or any other dysfunctional social behavior, in any way, shape, or form. yet there are folks here that insist on dragging these negative elements into our sphere of gaming which pretty much, at the moment consists of entertainment, diversions, and recreation, except for those of you that are hopelessly hung-up on and completely obsessed with burdensome real-life issues. The whole point of gaming is to unburden yourself from those toxins.

It not that such sordid and sad roleplaying content "triggers" me, it's that I don't particularly care to be tainted by the same poisons that has so infected and sickened the folks that insist on posting about such trash here on this gaming forum. Got some real life issues? Why are you bringing them into our games here? Go find a real life psychologist, or psychiatrist who actually might be able to heal you, instead of spreading misery for other gamers here.

Hint: one of those things I underlined isn't like the others:D! (I also put it in bold in case you're wondering).
And referring to all of them as "negative behaviours", "toxins", "such sordid and sad roleplaying content", "poisons" and "trash" really, really doesn't help me believe your statement that you're "not triggered". You sure seem triggered to me:p!
Or, if you're not triggered...why do you hate sex so much;)?

It is fine. Keep being triggered!

QuoteAs for Kenneth Hite, He rocks!

At least something you said I can agree with.
Though I'd like to note that generally uppercase He is reserved for Supreme Beings. Some people would consider equating those with Ken Hite to be offensive:).

Quote from: san dee jota;970339The argument summed up from where I stand.

"White Wolf -used- to be such a sensitive and welcoming company, making mature products."
"Like Pimp the Backhanding, Exalted: Infernals, WoD: Gypsies, vagina dentata on the back of Clanbook: Tzimisce so it had to be sold in a black baggie at Hastings, etc. etc. etc."
"No, I mean they didn't hire transphobes and make sniggering jokes about other people."
"How the heck do you know that none of their freelancers and devs were transphobic?  It's not like transgender characters were in their books for the first decade at least.  And sniggering jokes were (and are) common place, they're just at groups you don't mind being ridiculed so you don't notice or care.  Say hello to the new edgelords, same as the old edgelords."
"Well Zak S.-"
"Oh for fuck's sake.  Just say RPG Hitler and be done with it, because your argument is just Godwin's Law in a different dress."
"If you listen to David Hill-"
"Why?  All I know about the guy is he burned a lot of people on Kickstarter.  Multiple times.  But I'm supposed to take him at his word now because RPG Hitler?"
"Well Ken Hite-"
"Is a guy who likes making games and wants to make some money doing it.  You want him to eat, nuWW is helping him do that.  You want nuWW to improve itself, hiring Ken Hite is a way to do that.  You feel guilty over liking a company (now companies) that have been making games where you play super powered assholes for over two decades, bashing on every little move nuWW makes won't change the fact you had fun playing a metaphorical rapist/junkie in Vampire.  For fuck's sake it's really simple: if you don't like company X for reasons, don't buy their product.  But quit trying to shame other people into joining your self-righteous little crusade.  People having fun will trump anything you or anyone else says anyway, and meanwhile the company can and will change, and the war for social justice won't matter nearly as much as sales."

Great summary, actually:D!
Though I'd note that it necessarily misses the opening salvos of Mark RH, and those were great fun to read. I especially liked "people like you are the reason Trump won", probably because I was telling the same for a few months now!
("You've stopped being gamers" also had merit, though).

Quote from: VengerSatanis;970340I finally got around to reading the playtest scenario.  Nope.  

When was the last time you remember Venger using the phrase "inappropriate content?"  Exactly.  This goes too far for me personally and the RPG hobby/industry/community as a whole, I hope.  I'm distancing myself from everything White Wolf starting now.  If you want to know more, feel free to read my blog.

VS

You're a well-known softie;).

Quote from: Baulderstone;970372...they have never actually done anything for anybody unless you consider Internet bullying to be a form of philanthropy.

Wait, you mean I can't deduct it from my taxes as a charitable contribution?

Quote from: Baulderstone;970380Mark Rein-Hagen gets a lot of crap as the creator of the World of Darkness, but both early Ars Magica and early World of Darkness were solidly playable games, and the long treadmill of books lacking any gameable content comes later.

I don't know if there is really an alternative vision where Rein-Hagen stayed in control. I get the feeling he didn't have a lot of interest in long-term development. He did some great stuff for Ars Magica and moved on. He did the same with Vampire. After a few years of WoD, he was tired of that and began working on Exile, his science-fiction game. When White Wolf killed it during development, he moved on from the company. I think he was done with Vampire at the time.

First Edition Vampire was all Mark. Everything that came after wasn't. White Wolf made it plain that they had the creative control. Not him.

That's why the other games in the cWoD seemed choppy and inconsistent. Because they were tacked on and developed without his input.

Mark had a clear vision of how he wanted things to go with Vampire. How he wanted it developed. How he wanted it presented. But the financial backers didn't agree.

It's not the first time where a creator had the rug pulled out from under them.

He didn't create the World Of Darkness. He created Vampire: The Masquerade. A game that was meant to be self contained.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970406First Edition Vampire was all Mark. Everything that came after wasn't. White Wolf made it plain that they had the creative control. Not him.

That's why the other games in the cWoD seemed choppy and inconsistent. Because they were tacked on and developed without his input.

Mark had a clear vision of how he wanted things to go with Vampire. How he wanted it developed. How he wanted it presented. But the financial backers didn't agree.

It's not the first time where a creator had the rug pulled out from under them.

He didn't create the World Of Darkness. He created Vampire: The Masquerade. A game that was meant to be self contained.

Actually Mark Rein-Hagen was the lead creator of the whole of the World of Darkness, with the exception of Mage: The Ascension. He was the lead writer of Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Wraith: The Oblivion and Changeling: The Dreaming too.

The idea of having multiple games in one setting was mooted in Ars Magica, where there were already designs towards creating a game for Knights and others in the pipeline. When Lion Rampant and White Wolf merged, they switched to prioritise Vampire, with the clear intention of developing it out through multiple games.

Mark Rein-Hagen made a great game series with Vampire and Werewolf, and most of 1e/early 2e WoD. It wasn't until Revised did everything turn to shit.

Justin Achilli was the one who killed Vampire and spearheaded the ruination of White Wolf.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;970371Instead. We got the inmates running the asylum. After Mark was driven out.

OPP and their freelancers are still those inmates. And apparently. They haven't learned a thing from their continual string of failures. From the fact that they drove the original White Wolf into the ground.

Lol. Indeed. I saw an interview with him once and he seems like a nice guy. Definitely not the huge swine Pundit seems to think he is. I think that honor goes to the new guard that took over.

Quote from: GameDaddy;970300As for Kenneth Hite, He rocks! He is one of the most clear and concise writers in the RPG world. I'd be interested to see what he brings for the new edition of Vampire. I'd wager it'll be about a hundred times better than the morose navel gazing and whinging that has spread far and wide and managed to infect even the RPGsite here.

Agreed. My two favorite writers are probably him and Wiggy.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;970457Lol. Indeed. I saw an interview with him once and he seems like a nice guy. Definitely not the huge swine Pundit seems to think he is. I think that honor goes to the new guard that took over.

The real swine are Justin Achilli, Satyros Brucato, Martin Ericsson, David Hill, Holden Shearer, and most of the crew at Onyx Path. They're all either SJW commies or pretentious Goth and Punk edgelords or both.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;970462The real swine are Justin Achilli, Satyros Brucato, Martin Ericsson, David Hill, Holden Shearer, and most of the crew at Onyx Path. They're all either SJW commies or pretentious Goth and Punk edgelords or both.

I think Rein-Hagen would probably register as higher ranking 'SJW commie' or 'pretentious Goth and Punk edgelord' if you desperately, want to classify people as such and you've ever read any of his work. He's a Sociology major, from what I recall, and he looked a lot more gothic when he had hair back in the early 90s. He pioneered the whole social commentary style of writing in rpgs in many ways. 1st edition was dedicated to Vaclav Havel! Oh, and he's a nice guy too, but so what?

His falling out with White Wolf came about mainly in the development of his sci-fi game, Exile (a sort of formative attempt at a trans humanist rpg), which he mooted as being part of a non-profit game world called the Null Foundation. I think WW may have baulked at this because, at the time, their success as a business was starting to wind down a bit. That is a speculation, but it was certainly the time that they fell out. They promoted Exile for the best part of a year, from memory, with an online development site, before rapidly switch and releasing Aeon without hardly any real marketing. Aeon then got a lawsuit and switched it's name to Trinity.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;970457Lol. Indeed. I saw an interview with him once and he seems like a nice guy. Definitely not the huge swine Pundit seems to think he is. I think that honor goes to the new guard that took over.

Hey! Please don't insult the swine! They actually become pork products. Which actually taste good!

Good taste. However. Is something the former White Wolf and OPP people can't claim to have.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;9704711st edition was dedicated to Vaclav Havel!

So he's opposed to Slovak independence?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;970305I have found nowhere in any real definition of an RPG (not yours!) that requires that you play with any such restrictions - particularly in horror roleplaying which is pretty much made up of unsocial and unsavoury aspects by virtue of the genre it represents.

Or just avoid playing horror RPGs?

Eh? It's not the unsocial or unsavory aspects that make a horror game great, but the unknown, the suspense or the delayed anticipation, and the elements of surprise combined... In some very rare cases the unsocial or unsavory aspects, combined with the remainder mentioned here can salvage an otherwise bad story or game experience, however I have found that to be the extreme exception and not the norm for any type of horror, be it games, written stories, or movies.

Hacks who rely on making their games interesting by adding unsocial or unsavory aspects are a mentally crippled lot that offer the players few opportunities for any type of creative control over their experience. They instead, are simply misery tourism guides intent on ensuring the dues ex machina of their failed storylines and plots are executed without player agency being able to effect the story. Now this is simply not roleplaying if the players can't change what they do, or if the outcome of their actions in a scenario, or adventure can't be changed or otherwise altered to create a positive situation, or outcome. If the only situation is that we have to have unsocial or unsavory aspects for our horror game, then it is not a horror game, but a different railroad, an express freight train to completely different hell, one, where true horror (and fear) don't exist, and is replaced by a numbing boredom instead that is insensitivity, and indifference.

There are many, many B-grade horror movies, but only a very few horror masterpieces, games, or movies, or books with the power to scare the living S&$^ out of you. These would be games, or books, ...or movies that make you wake up sweating, or screaming in terror, or that make you too afraid to turn out all the lights, or that are so scary that you are completely unwilling to sit in the unquiet dark, alone, by yourself. Throwing in a few unsocial or unsavory aspects won't get you these experiences, although they may sicken, or revolt your average eleven year old.

So, who is your game really for? is it for mature adults looking for quite possibly a thrilling and simultaneously terrifying experience, or is your game just there, so you can gross out eleven year olds? inquiring minds are keen to know. My horror games are for the adults.

Also, if anyone can save White Wolf just on the quality of his writing alone, I'd once again have to endorse Kenneth Hite over pretty much anyone, including Mark Rein-Hagan.

For anyone here unfamiliar with his true qualities of Kenneth Hite as a game designer, writer, foodie, and movie critic, feel free to google Prince of Cairo and Livejournal, and educate yourself.

Quote from: Dumarest;970494So he's opposed to Slovak independence?

QuoteDedication: This game is dedicated to Vaclav Havel, Poet, Playwright, & Statesman - who was its inspiration.

"We are still under the sway of the destructive and vain belief that man is the pinnacle of creation, and not just a part of it, and that, therefore, everything is permitted .... We are incapable of understanding that the only genuine backbone of our actions - if they are to be moral - is responsibility - responsibility to something higher than my family, my country, my firm, my success. Responsibility to the order of Being, where all our actions are indelibly recorded and where, and only where, they will be properly judged."  - Vaclav Havel, in a speech to the United States Congress

From Vampire: the Masquerade 1st Edition. He also loved Carl Jung.