Quote from: Christopher Brady;964329And I hated the Karma rules then too.

Sure not saying you had to like them (I had some issues with them myself), but , aside from pointing out the concept wasn't invented by White Wolf (their occasional claims to the side ) my point of confusion is conflating social mechanics with style enforcement rules. At least most of the time I've seen them they're not really related.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964315What the players did with the tool and what the designers were going for, you'll find, are often two different things.  The Humanity track was there to push players into a specific method of playing.  That gamers didn't was, I believe, a constant source of frustration for White Wolf, there's a reason the 'Superhero with Fangs' style has been derided and used as a pejorative.  It's an example of the subtle 'You're doing it wrong' attitude that White Wolf and a good chunk of their fans is famous for.

And instead of letting players do the personal horror thing organically, White Wolf doubled down on it, expanding it for the second editions, making the Great Curse/hubris for Exalted and even all the way to Exalted's Social Charms that force players into expending a resource to allow them to play the way they want to.

You're weaving all over the road here. We were talking about what was done in 1st Edition Vampire, and you are using Exalted as an example. I don't think Mark Rein-Hagan, the designer of Vampire, even worked for White Wolf anymore.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964310But the humanity tracker is more about the cosmology of the setting than enforcing morality I think. In a game that is supposed to be about the loss of your humanity, having a stat like that makes a certain amount of in setting sense.  You could make the same argument about alignments in D&D.

Quote from: Nexus;964311Agreed. I had allot less issue with Humanity than the later Angst o'meters like Limit. It seemed less tacked on and like the game designers shaking their fingers at you chiding you to "play right" like Limit *or a ham-fisted attempt to give an aspect of the setting with a pseudo scientific explanation a moral/Spiritual component like Taint in Aberrant.

*I read a statement from a Exalted writer/staffer (maybe former one at this point) that said that pretty much flat out. Limit was something put in a enforce the 'right' playstyle because too many players supposedly wouldn't get it or wouldn't follow it unless the rules make them and making it a setting aspect (The Great Curse) was mainly sugar to help the proper rp medicine go down for those to simple minded to get it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964315What the players did with the tool and what the designers were going for, you'll find, are often two different things.  The Humanity track was there to push players into a specific method of playing.  That gamers didn't was, I believe, a constant source of frustration for White Wolf, there's a reason the 'Superhero with Fangs' style has been derided and used as a pejorative.  It's an example of the subtle 'You're doing it wrong' attitude that White Wolf and a good chunk of their fans is famous for.

And instead of letting players do the personal horror thing organically, White Wolf doubled down on it, expanding it for the second editions, making the Great Curse/hubris for Exalted and even all the way to Exalted's Social Charms that force players into expending a resource to allow them to play the way they want to.

Eventually WW gave up and added paths and touchstones that exist solely to let characters act like blood-crazed psychopaths without being punished. It never did a good job of showing characters becoming steadily less human because there was no correlation between statistics of human versus vampire origin. A character could maintain high humanity and a laundry list of magical powers... like a superhero. Due to poor design, it is easier for characters with a bigger conscience to get away with ignoring it.

The humanity meter and related mechanics operate inversely to how guilt works in real life: in the game degenerating makes you crazy, in reality NOT degenerating makes you crazy. This is where Exalted's limit break is more realistic. Of course, many and perhaps most players want to play murderous psychopaths and that's where most of the unpopularity comes from.

What we should be doing is trying to attract demographics that are not primarily interested in roleplaying indiscriminate slaughter or, failing that, construct games so that indiscriminate slaughter is not the standard option to solving problems.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;964348The advantage would be that the use and structure of the X-Card specifically says "you can veto anything and no one will challenge you". Every day speech, on the other hand, implies that discussion is an option.

The other advantage is being able to send a non-verbal cue that the direction things are going needs to be shifted. This can be less disruptive than verbally interjecting. I'm actually reminded of Kenneth Hite's technique of holding up a sign saying "NO MORE INFORMATION" or something of the like when the PCs have sucked all the useful data out of an NPC they're interrogating; it helps stave off non-productive scenarios in which players cling to scenes long after all interest has been lost because they're afraid of missing something, but it also allows the scene to draw to a natural conclusion whereas a verbal interjection tends to disrupt the scene and can often result in its unsatisfactory conclusion.

(I say this as someone who considers the X-Card fairly juvenile in practice and inherently problematic in its structure.)

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Okay, I missed the veto power aspect to it I think. I suppose if that works for people, they should do it. Personally I think that would drive me a bit nuts at the table (I'd at least like there to be conversation about things because the vetos could be unreasonable, keep interrupting the flow or really need to be negotiated it seems). I guess that is the part about shifting to all card approach and away from regular speech approach that just doesn't fit for me. I see these things as stuff you hash out at the table. If someone has issues around a particular subject, we are happy to accommodate them, but it could also get to a point where someone just has too many issues for us to avoid.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964350Okay, I missed the veto power aspect to it I think. I suppose if that works for people, they should do it. Personally I think that would drive me a bit nuts at the table (I'd at least like there to be conversation about things because the vetos could be unreasonable, keep interrupting the flow or really need to be negotiated it seems). I guess that is the part about shifting to all card approach and away from regular speech approach that just doesn't fit for me. I see these things as stuff you hash out at the table. If someone has issues around a particular subject, we are happy to accommodate them, but it could also get to a point where someone just has too many issues for us to avoid.

I agree. The card approach just seems to be shifting the potential to be obstructionist from one type of player to another. Seems like some kind of conversation is going to have to occur at least so people at the table know what you're objecting too, perhaps more of it turns out to be portion of the game that is important in some fashion. Adult should be able to talk about issues with a group activity. There'd be some folks that would be absolute terrors under that system.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964329And I hated the Karma rules then too.

Whats wrong with the Karma rules? They didnt enforce any playstyle really. You could be as nice or as cruel as you pleased. But just like in the comics the more bad you do the more likely things are going to eventually not go your way. This was even a mandate at Marvel for a time. If a character did something bad then they had to pay for it eventually.

Quote from: Baulderstone;964309Not everyone needs the game rules to prevent us from engaging in "unintended behavior". Do we really want an edition of GUMSHOE with rules on how to stop players from murdering every suspect before questioning them?

No. But again, this is about players, not characters.

And when it comes to testing, too many RPG companies simply say "Don't do the thing" instead of fixing the reason the thing exists in the first place. If a rule can be exploited, then the response to your feedback shouldn't be "don't exploit that rule" and then place judgement on the people who do. And I know games can be comprehensive because I've seen them in action.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964315What the players did with the tool and what the designers were going for, you'll find, are often two different things.

Yes. Which is exactly why the #XCard...

Oh wait, you're talking about #Humanity.

That's the trouble with tools: People are adaptable

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964319I just don't like the idea of a mechanic to tell players how to play the game 'the right way' as frankly, there isn't any.

I think this hobby in particular confuses play imperatives with moral ones. Of course there's no 'right' way to play, but without a shared set of assumptions tactical play and the like become completely impossible.

So is there an XX card to block abuse of the X card? Is there a XXX card to block blocking abuse of the X card? Do you have to play an X and an XX card to block an XXX card?

Anon, why don't you take a shot at giving an example of the type of rule/mechanic/disclaimer/whatever that you'd like to see them place into the new Vampire?

Quote from: CRKrueger;964418Anon, why don't you take a shot at giving an example of the type of rule/mechanic/disclaimer/whatever that you'd like to see them place into the new Vampire?

That's what I was asking about earlier. Some concrete examples would help me understand his POV a little better. Because right now I don't think I do because it doesn't make allot of sense.

Quote from: Omega;964414Whats wrong with the Karma rules? They didnt enforce any playstyle really. You could be as nice or as cruel as you pleased. But just like in the comics the more bad you do the more likely things are going to eventually not go your way. This was even a mandate at Marvel for a time. If a character did something bad then they had to pay for it eventually.

Actually, yes.  You cannot kill, or you'll lose all the Karma you've built, and it doesn't matter if you did the act, or if you were mind controlled, you lose it all.  (which means that the Punisher never has any Karma ever.)  Letting a crime be committed makes you lose a small amount, so if you're chasing say the Juggernaut whose crushing his way through traffic, but a bunch of people are looting/rioting and you don't stop them, you're getting dinged for it and getting dinged for each instance.  And those are just couple of the penalties on page 35.

How is that NOT forcing you to be boy/girl scouts?

Now bear in mind that Karma is your Bennie (a la Savage World) and your XP, so if you're looking to maybe add a Power Stunt as a regular power, hope you plan on playing for decades.  And don't kill.  It's a mechanic that forces you into a direct playstyle with a near impossible set of rules if your GM plays the game straight.  You NEED to house rule this game.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;964421Actually, yes.  You cannot kill, or you'll lose all the Karma you've built, and it doesn't matter if you did the act, or if you were mind controlled, you lose it all.  (which means that the Punisher never has any Karma ever.)  Letting a crime be committed makes you lose a small amount, so if you're chasing say the Juggernaut whose crushing his way through traffic, but a bunch of people are looting/rioting and you don't stop them, you're getting dinged for it and getting dinged for each instance.  And those are just couple of the penalties on page 35.

How is that NOT forcing you to be boy/girl scouts?

Now bear in mind that Karma is your Bennie (a la Savage World) and your XP, so if you're looking to maybe add a Power Stunt as a regular power, hope you plan on playing for decades.  And don't kill.  It's a mechanic that forces you into a direct playstyle with a near impossible set of rules if your GM plays the game straight.  You NEED to house rule this game.

You're missing the whole point of the Karma rules, then. It's Marvel Super HEROES, not Marvel Super Angsty Murderhobos. Well, strike the angsty part, as Wolverine is on there...

They were a great way to get a group of 11-year-olds at my Jr High to FOCUS on choosing to act heroically instead of our usual hack&slash.

Of course you can ignore them if they're buzzkill, but I agree with what they intend to do, which is help kids who don't roleplay.

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Kenneth Hite talks a bit about his plans for Vampaire on Ken and Robin Talk about Stuff: http://www.kenandrobintalkaboutstuff.com/index.php/episode-243-i-do-not-wish-to-be-a-moth-hat/

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;964478Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Kenneth Hite talks a bit about his plans for Vampaire on Ken and Robin Talk about Stuff: http://www.kenandrobintalkaboutstuff.com/index.php/episode-243-i-do-not-wish-to-be-a-moth-hat/

I listened to that this morning. He emphasized it is going to be a setting where the vampires in each city are largely isolated from each other. The focus is on what happens in your own city and not some big metaplot. I remain unsure I am ever going to get back into Vampire, but that is the kind of thing of thing that would at least make me consider it.