Read the gory details here at Tenkar's Tavern.

Not familiar with this particular kickstart, but I certainly believe that if you pay to support something you should get that something. I hope that others who do kickstart projects pay attention to this and do their best to make things right!

Quote from: finarvyn;1033989Not familiar with this particular kickstart, but I certainly believe that if you pay to support something you should get that something. I hope that others who do kickstart projects pay attention to this and do their best to make things right!

You know how you should do that?  By not buying into a promise, but actually buying a PRODUCT.  If they can't get the money for the startup on their own, then maybe it shouldn't see the light of day, ne?

Well, this is how people get the money for the startup. 20 years ago it was day trading, and average joes tried to do what dedicated stock market analysts did for a living (with mixed results). Today, the average joes are doing what venture capitalists did for a living, and surprise, surprise there are mixed results. Regardless, it is the current model, and those people who previously went to venture capitalists or friends and family (or having started out in a lucrative career and now liquidating your savings to attempt a creative enterprise) are now doing Kickstarters. Like it or lump it, this is the modern system.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034001You know how you should do that?  By not buying into a promise, but actually buying a PRODUCT.  If they can't get the money for the startup on their own, then maybe it shouldn't see the light of day, ne?

There's a reason I'm not launching my planned kickstarter until the writing is done (with the exception of the planned 'insert your character here' slots in the default setting for higher tier backers), the layouts are done, all the internally produced artwork is complete and the only thing left are the licence fees for certain pieces of art I intend to use and the actual printing (the kickstarter is to limit my own financial risks... if it doesn't get funded then the backers get their money back and I don't have to pay for the print run out of my own pocket before selling them).

Part of the backer rewards (in addition to the books themselves) will be the pre-release pdfs (i.e. versions missing the licensed art and backer NPC's) of the two books upon successful completion of the kickstarter as proof its not some pie-in-the-sky project from a first time publisher.

Stretch goals? Additional copies for the initial print run (after which it will be POD), improving/maintaining the website (which I will have launched prior to the kickstarter) and the rest will be banked for art/writing of planned supplements.

Enough of these have crashed and burned that I intend to do everything I can to put backer's minds at ease about the project and to not over-promise on what can be delivered.

I buy products, not the promise of one.  I'll wait till it hits the store shelves before picking anything up.

Now, that I've got my opinion out of the way, the Tenkar Tavern post is very light on details beyond the Knights of The Dinner Table live action series.  Who is this Mr. Whitman?  And can I get more information on what he did, please?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034001You know how you should do that?  By not buying into a promise, but actually buying a PRODUCT.  If they can't get the money for the startup on their own, then maybe it shouldn't see the light of day, ne?

I know that kickstart is supposed to be "buyer beware" but I suppose it all comes down to the reliability of the source. I'm pretty sure Goodman Games (for example) doesn't put anything on kickstart until the product is pretty much written, so they use the funding for artwork and printing costs. Others may be doing things on speculation where if they get the money they _start_ working on the project. Much less likely that the thing will get done.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034006I buy products, not the promise of one.  I'll wait till it hits the store shelves before picking anything up.

You can certainly do that, but quite a few games as of late (mainly board games), are Kickstarter exclusive.  If you don't get them on Kickstarter, you don't get them at all.

The horses are out of the barn, it's too late to close the doors.

Quote from: Celestial;1034010You can certainly do that, but quite a few games as of late (mainly board games), are Kickstarter exclusive.  If you don't get them on Kickstarter, you don't get them at all.

That's nice.  If it's not on store shelves (and that includes electronic ones, like Amazon or Drivethru) I'm not really interested in it.

Quote from: Celestial;1034010The horses are out of the barn, it's too late to close the doors.

Just means they don't get my dollar, which in the grand scheme of things means nothing, but I sleep better at night knowing that what I bought, is what I wanted, not a promise of something that may or may not be.

Either way, I'm still wondering who this Ken Whitman is.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034012That's nice.  If it's not on store shelves (and that includes electronic ones, like Amazon or Drivethru) I'm not really interested in it.



Just means they don't get my dollar, which in the grand scheme of things means nothing, but I sleep better at night knowing that what I bought, is what I wanted, not a promise of something that may or may not be.

Either way, I'm still wondering who this Ken Whitman is.

He's pretty infamous for stealing others' RPG IPs and passing it off as his own. Artwork for sure, and I think whole rulesets (not just mechanics) as well.

5 seconds on Google threw up this, I have not checked it.

I hope he pays, and pays, and pays. He's a scumbag.

Pretty damning.  Thank you for the information.

The thing is though, why would you ever give Ken Whitman money in the first place? His whole history is sketchy going back at least 20 years.

Quote from: Motorskills;1034017He's pretty infamous for stealing others' RPG IPs and passing it off as his own. Artwork for sure, and I think whole rulesets (not just mechanics) as well.

5 seconds on Google threw up this, I have not checked it.

That sounds like James Shipman the creep who stole art and RPGs and was selling them with name changes and other tweaks. He even had the gall to release a game called True West which he claims was written in 79.

https://www.amazon.com/True-West-Wild-Roleplaying-Game/dp/1453600027/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523585974&sr=1-13

And this gem.

QuoteThe front and back covers and cover art was created by the famous western artist Tom C. Horn, who is a long time friend and gamer himself.

Followed by the real artists comment.

QuoteElements of my artwork are being used on the cover of this product without permission.

Quote from: Omega;1034080That sounds like James Shipman the creep who stole art and RPGs and was selling them with name changes and other tweaks. He even had the gall to release a game called True West which he claims was written in 79.

https://www.amazon.com/True-West-Wild-Roleplaying-Game/dp/1453600027/ref=sr_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1523585974&sr=1-13

And this gem.


Followed by the real artists comment.

FYI, Shipman died in February.