Quote from: silva;651180I think a better solution for this is using emotional atributes like Passions, Instincts, Virtues, etc. to reflect the bonus the character gets for situations that really matter to them.

Games like Riddle of Steel, Pendragon and Unknown Armies use that for good effect, I think.

Yes and no. Sure it's more elegant to have direct mechanical support but it is also a little inflexible. It assumes you know everything that matters to your character at character generation and that changes to your character status are constantly updated mechanically (which in fairness Pendragon does). A pool of Hero Points makes this kind of choice a lot more flexible. Regardless of what is documented on the character sheet, who knows better than the player when something really matters to his character?

Didn't expect so many replies so fast.

I see most everyone's point and agree with most.

I can see it used as a way to shore up or fix a flawed system but what about systems that would work fine with out it but they add something. I think Seventh sea does that fairly well. It is the sort of system I use as well.

Also I like them as a tangible award for the players. I reward them for making my game fun and for not wasting time. Some BSing occurs with all social settings but games I try to focus the group and I sometimes give them as a reward for very focused play.

My players are all adults and not disruptive but everyone is human. some games need me to crack the whip as social director and sometimes give them a slice of pie for good. I don't mind doing this in game we never immerse ourselves so far we forget its a freaking game, played for fun.

I think they should be tied into the system, even a gritty one sometimes you win by the skin of your teeth and the dice just won't give you that win, so if spending some measurable limited resource gives you the good story why not?

I want "Power Points" in space opera or high fantasy or any other cinematic game where my PC is supposed to be the Big Damn Hero and quite usually save the day.

I don't even mind Fate Points in Warhammer where Sigmar watches over those who strive against the darkness threatening his Empire.

But they don't belong in gritty settings where life is cheap, even a hero's life.

Quote from: jeff37923;651185Emulation fail for D&D, emulation win for console games.

One hit one kill never happens in movies or books?

That's all the minion rules in 4e did. It allowed for those badass scenes we've seen in dozens of movies, read in thousands of comics and hundreds, if not thousands of books, where the hero cuts down a potentially tough enemy with one arrow, one sword stroke or one quick spell.

If its good enough for every other medium of heroic fiction, its good enough for D&D.

Here's the joke too. You can have minions in OD&D. Just give 1 HP per HD. You could have a 5 HP Ogre. He'd have the same AC, same attacks as a 30 HP ogre, but die in one good blow. There isn't much difference between a 1HP Ogre minion and a 5HP ogre.

Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;651153I remember a few weeks ago that someone mentioned in a thread they thought things that players received like action points in D&D and Drama die in Seventh sea that help the players out was a sign of a weak system design. That the system should be better balanced an not need these things/crutches.

It sort of bothered me since I love Drama/karma/luck dice/point mechanics that help characters do extraordinary acts and be heroic or mitigate horrible luck which I have seen all to often.

what be your opinion?

Short answer: No. They are totally alright.


Long answer: But not to "mitigate horrible luck". If horrible luck is a problem, the rules should be indeed better balanced.

It's alright to put active resources in your game, if you want players to spend them. You can make a game that relies completely on such resources, having no dice at all. But they are not a fix for other problems.

Quote from: Spinachcat;651189Here's the joke too. You can have minions in OD&D. Just give 1 HP per HD. You could have a 5 HP Ogre. He'd have the same AC, same attacks as a 30 HP ogre, but die in one good blow. There isn't much difference between a 1HP Ogre minion and a 5HP ogre.

Your 5 HP ogres come up naturally as tosses of the dice; IIRC, are no 30 HP ogres (even with d8 HD).

Quote from: 1of3;651194Long answer: But not to "mitigate horrible luck". If horrible luck is a problem, the rules should be indeed better balanced.

Meaning that an advantage must be perpetual rather than expendable? Why? Or is there some unclarity on the meaning of bad luck?

Quote from: gleichman;651171That was likely me.

Yes, they generally suck. If used to override the game's resolution system, they are nothing more than an indication that the game's resolution system produces undesired results- the resolution system itself should be fixed.

If used to pass narrative control to the player, they force meta-game concerns directly into the middle of play and should be avoided for that reason alone (to say nothing of the fact that giving player narrative control is a very bad idea).

The closest I've seen to an acceptable use was TORG, where they at least represented a in-game ability of the character. But even here, there would have been better options and they failed to achieve their purpose in our short lived campaign.

Quote from: Soylent Green;651172Without hero points, the odds of successfully kicking down a door in a burning building are the same whether you are trying to save the life of you daughter or her pet turtle.

Quote from: gleichman;651174You don't need hero points for that. Just a good resolution system.

(to steal from soylent green)So a situation where kicking down a steel door between you and loved one to save them. Should have different stats/target number/resolution than the exact same steel door with only your pet turtle to be saved? Isn't that very meta gamey? Isn't that passing narrative control to the player? Isn't that very arbitrary? Can you give an example of a game that gets it right?

Depends on the game. Some games use them fantastically, but many are, sadly, a patch on the system because the system doesn't work well for the genre the game is intending.

That doesn't mean I don't like them, but I'd prefer ways to internalize the mechanic to the player character, rather than a player resource.

That is ways the /pc/ can choose actions/reroll/whatever based on their motivation, faith, whatever.

See, in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay they make sense.  Fate points let you survive a little longer.  If you're doing it right they're gone by the time the characters are tough enough to survive on their own.  It works well in the context.

Anyhow, I think they can work poorly and be tacked on without thought.  D&D hitpoints after first level fall into this category.

Savage worlds uses 'em but they're so fundamental to the design that I can't say they stink.  I just wish the game worked well enough without them.  It's borderline.  I want to like Savage Worlds but I just can't.

Still, it depends.  In GURPS you can buy extra lives and unkillable.  They make sense for some villains in a meta sense.  The Joker?   Wasn't he dead?  I guess not!  But then it makes more sense for supernatural stuff like vampires even if it can also account for the effects of bad writing.

Quote from: David Johansen;651205Anyhow, I think they can work poorly and be tacked on without thought.  D&D hitpoints after first level fall into this category.

In point of historical fact, no. Gygax made that change from Arneson's game for considered reasons, reasons that have been quite thoroughly presented.

What does "work poorly" mean in this case?

Quote from: Soylent Green;651186Yes and no. Sure it's more elegant to have direct mechanical support but it is also a little inflexible. It assumes you know everything that matters to your character at character generation and that changes to your character status are constantly updated mechanically (which in fairness Pendragon does). A pool of Hero Points makes this kind of choice a lot more flexible. Regardless of what is documented on the character sheet, who knows better than the player when something really matters to his character?

Well, nothing wrong with either approach, really. One is thematically linked to the game (Passions, Instincts, Virtues) and is more restricted in its uses, while the other is a a pure meta-game resource and is more versatile.

As I lean more on the thematic side of things (call me an "emulationist" if you will) I tend to prefer the former. But YMMV and all that.

Quote from: SilverlionThat doesn't mean I don't like them, but I'd prefer ways to internalize the mechanic to the player character, rather than a player resource.

THIS is how I prefer it too.

Quote from: Phillip;651197Your 5 HP ogres come up naturally as tosses of the dice; IIRC, are no 30 HP ogres (even with d8 HD).

In AD&D, ogres were 4HD+1 so using D8 you just need 29 out of 32 on the 4D8 dice to get a 30 HP ogre.

No count good.

Me play D2 System instead?

5 HP ogre still be BTB, though.

Just do not call me 'minion.'

Quote from: Ronin;651200(to steal from soylent green)So a situation where kicking down a steel door between you and loved one to save them. Should have different stats/target number/resolution than the exact same steel door with only your pet turtle to be saved? Isn't that very meta gamey? Isn't that passing narrative control to the player? Isn't that very arbitrary? Can you give an example of a game that gets it right?

I think it rather depends on the specific implementation of X Points that we're talking about.

IMO, points systems which are used for re-rolls are almost always a system patch. I used to view them as smoothing over the bumps and mitigating problematic rolls, but after running 50ish sessions of Savage Worlds I've come round to Gleichman's view that it would be better to just have a system that gives the results you want without needing them.

Points systems used for "extra effort" (so where you get to add something more to dice rolls which are important to you) can be a functional part of a design, if they're modelling something you want as a setting feature. Of course, if the underlying game is broken in some way, then functionally they end up being the same thing as re-roll tokens.