Quote from: James J SkachAnd you know what? I have to thank the people in this very forum for making that happen.  Why?

Well, when I first heard the news and then started hearing information on what was being discussed in terms of the design, it was unsettling to me. When I came on this forum and expressed that discomfort, the folks here, intentionally or not, prince, pundit, or pauper, jackass or nice, helped me really think about, and examine, how and why I felt the way I did.

So thanks all! Good job! Well done!

You're very welcome!

(That'll be $5 American, please.)

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's the question.  In my opinion, if they make the game a direct imitation of WoW without anything to really differentiate it from the experience other than that it has no graphics, no sound, no online convenience, and you have to spend time rolling up shit, then the whole concept won't work.

The right idea would be for the game to be still recognizeably D&D, to still be about Roleplaying, but geared more towards a younger audience and the things they enjoy.  Then it would not only work, but would likely still be palatable to the existing audience.

However, it looks like this isn't the way they're going, judging by the aggresiveness they're expressing toward existing D&D and its fans.

I'm not sure that can all be done.

What defines WoW and other similar games is the near isntant gratification and the ability to play with gamers wherever they are. You log on, you play. Its an odd sort of solitary-but-social thing.

What defines D&D and other campaign RPGs perhaps more than anything else is getting together with the same guys week in, week out, for years. You devote a regular slot in your diary to something. The reason why you might go out and buy another book for it (whether its a module adventuer, a supplement, a settign or an extra 'core' rulebook) is because that helps keep the game fresh and interesting, and can save you preparation time.

It was recognised as far back as the early 80s/late 70s that those groulps that stuck in to the game and kept coming back to buy more were the ones who built campaigns. They were the ones spending the money, over a longer period of time, so they were the ones catered for.

Now if you strip all of that away and try to replicate or emulate what you have in WoW... I dunno, I just can't see how that 'instant gratification' model translates into campaign game play, and if you don't have campaign game play then D&D isn't going to maintain its grip on a group long enough to sell them more products. Greater and greater emphasis on the simulation/combat end (abilities per fight, more and more on a game board, etc.) would seem more to support more of the WoW style, less of the campaign style, and that just doesn't seem likely to work.

I'm not arguing for a back to basics approach to D&D products here, far from it; what sold ten, twenty or thirty years ago doesn't sell now. But people haven't changed, gamers are still gamers, and the concepts that transcend game mechanics and which maintain interest long term are exactly the same as they've always been.

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. But it seems like they're moving away from the formula that has kept D&D the market leader for so long. 4th ed... Will it survive on the D&D brand alone?

Quote from: SettembriniThe PR so far doesn´t at all look like they actually have a Master Plan for bringing in the young ones.

Gleemax and D&D Insider look pretty much like a master plan to me...

That´s more like Egon´s Plan than a master plan...

Quote from: SettembriniThat´s more like Egon´s Plan than a master plan...

"Mächtig gewaltig!"


For the uninitiated: Egon and my quote are from Die Olsenbande, a series of Danish comedy movies that were extremely popular in East Germany.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke"Mächtig gewaltig!"


For the uninitiated: Egon and my quote are from Die Olsenbande, a series of Danish comedy movies that were extremely popular in East Germany.

What! It's not a Ghostbusters reference?

I'm vaugely disappointed.

Quote from: RPGPunditHowever, it looks like this isn't the way they're going, judging by the aggresiveness they're expressing toward existing D&D and its fans.

RPGPundit

It seems to me that WotC has been abrasive (not aggresive) towards only those existing fans who:

A) Had staked some of their online cred on 4.0 being released later than announced, or

B) Were going to hate a new edition regardless of its content.

Quote from: SettembriniHonestly,

The PR so far doesn´t at all look like they actually have a Master Plan for bringing in the young ones.

People say that all the time, particularly around new edition time. Doesn't make it so...And even if it was so, who cares?

Seanchai

Quote from: HaffrungIt seems to me that WotC has been abrasive (not aggresive) towards only those existing fans who:

A) Had staked some of their online cred on 4.0 being released later than announced, or

B) Were going to hate a new edition regardless of its content.

Then clearly you haven't been paying enough attention.  Everything they've put out thus far in terms of publicity has taken the format of "Everything that came before sucked ass! D&D 3e sucked, but We're going to ROCK! YEAH!!"

In other words, trying to argue that their system will be worth buying by putting down the existing version of the game. You know, what every pathetic penny-ante Fantasy Heartbreaker author does? What everyone else tells those losers not to do?

And yet here, its the mother-company itself that's gone that route, in what I can only think of as a spectacular marketing fuckup, that someone in marketing should have a burning hot spike shoved up their ass for.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThen clearly you haven't been paying enough attention.  Everything they've put out thus far in terms of publicity has taken the format of "Everything that came before sucked ass! D&D 3e sucked, but We're going to ROCK! YEAH!!"

I didn't get that vibe from the WotC folks. What I've seen is more of a "We started listening to the fans and are trying to fix some of the things they've been complaining about. You guys were right, the grappling rules were too complicated."

For a long time now there have been a lot of people complaining that certain aspects of D&D have been overly complicated or just didn't pan out well in play. I think WotC is trying to advertise that they are listening to the fans and fixing things that fans have been unhappy with.

Personally I'm excited to see a slight shift away from a prior sacred cow (Vancian magic) and am hopeful that the rest of the changes will be positive.

It sounds like the squeaky wheel might finally be getting the grease. Unfortunately, now all the people that were perfectly happy before are speaking out against the oncoming changes.

I think a majority of the complaints voiced over 4th edition changes are just hot air. The disapproving opinions are mostly people looking for something to complain about. I also am guessing that 4 out of 5 people who are officially swearing off anything 4E related will in fact end up buying the books.

There was plenty of outrage when 3E came out and a select few people kept on playing AD&D without changing over. The same will happen with Fourth edition. There will be a few holdovers, but I wouldn't give any serious credence to a majority of the anti-4E rants going around. It's the internet after all.

Quote from: RPGPunditThen clearly you haven't been paying enough attention.  Everything they've put out thus far in terms of publicity has taken the format of "Everything that came before sucked ass! D&D 3e sucked, but We're going to ROCK! YEAH!!"

Really? That isn't what I've seen. I've seen a company saying they're going to improve some aspects of a system that they feel don't work as well as they could. And yeah, they're saying the new edition is going to rock. You expect them to say it's going to a subtle re-tooling that may enhance the game experience for a few gamers? Of course not. When you make a new an improved product you shout New and Improved! from the rooftops.

But improvement =/= earlier stuff was junk. Was the marketing surrounding the launch of 3E an attack on 2E that shit on all the people who still liked and played 2E? No. It was a promotion by people who sincerely thought they had created a better game. I have no reason to believe the folks working on 4E don't believe they're making a better game.

Face it - you felt betrayed when 4E was announced because you were wrong about a prediction you had staked a lot of personal credibility on (which is a silly thing to do in the first place). You were not in a cooly rational or objective frame of mind when details about the new version came out. You seem to now count the WotC braintrust as your enemies, and so your attitude towards their policies are poisoned.

QuoteAnd yet here, its the mother-company itself that's gone that route, in what I can only think of as a spectacular marketing fuckup, that someone in marketing should have a burning hot spike shoved up their ass for.

We'll see how much of a marketing fuckup it really is when the sales numbers for 4E start to come out, won't we? No doubt WotC will lose thousands of customers over 4E. But they lost thousands over 3E, and they didn't seem especially choked up about it. I think what stings a lot of folks on these boards is that they're been judged as expendible as the folks who stuck with AD&D.

Quote from: HaffrungFace it - you felt betrayed when 4E was announced because you were wrong about a prediction you had staked a lot of personal credibility on (which is a silly thing to do in the first place). You were not in a cooly rational or objective frame of mind when details about the new version came out. You seem to now count the WotC braintrust as your enemies, and so your attitude towards their policies are poisoned.

Just to clear up; I didn't have to MAKE any prediction, the people at WoTC made a public statement.  They were either lying or decided to change their minds later and didn't bother to mention it to anyone.

QuoteWe'll see how much of a marketing fuckup it really is when the sales numbers for 4E start to come out, won't we? No doubt WotC will lose thousands of customers over 4E. But they lost thousands over 3E, and they didn't seem especially choked up about it. I think what stings a lot of folks on these boards is that they're been judged as expendible as the folks who stuck with AD&D.

By all accounts, they gained (possibly hundreds-of-)thousands over 3E.

Like I was telling WalkerRP elsewhere, I have no doubt whatsoever that 4E will be a success; the question is how much of a success.

RPGPundit