I think that if you do anything repetitively, it stops being cool.  If "something cool every turn" amounts to the option of being able to choose from the same 4-8 attacks every turn its not going to be very much better than just doing one optimized attack every turn (which is what usually happens right now).

I think the problem is that the designers haven't figured out that you can't legislate cool. :cool:

Cool cannot be created with a mechanic.  "Cool" is when the players do something themselves, that is creative and original. There's no substitute for that, no magic "cool hat" that will work just as well even if you're a cretin. And that's really what it seems WoTC is trying to do, figure out some way of making combat cool for non-creative people.

What they really should be doing (if their concern is cool) is figuring out a way to encourage freeform creativity.

Like FtA!'s Stunts do.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat they really should be doing (if their concern is cool) is figuring out a way to encourage freeform creativity.

Like FtA!'s Stunts do.

Ah yes ... if only the folks at WotC would realize how inferior their game designs are when compared with Pundit's.

Since this is a "So I can say I told you so" thread, I will offer a prediction:  This whole topic is only going to get more and more hilarious as time goes on.

Quote from: TonyLBLike, if a person today says "Well, I liked AD&D, but 3.5 is pants" (love that phrase) then the argument is often "Look, it sells like gangbusters, so there's got to be something there that people like ... you being unable to see it says something unflattering about you, but says nothing about the game itself."  I'll be interested to see whether folks stick to that syllogism when it's about a game they don't like.

I've already said that will be the case. The D&D guys know who they're making the game for, and they know its not me.  They're trying to make it for the 15 year old WoW player.  And that's what I've been telling them to do all this time.
Its where they have to go if the hobby is going to prosper. The only question is whether or not they'll succeed at it.

Will it be a game I'll like too? I'm having my doubts, but that's my personal issue.

So let's review: on a personal level I'm coming to terms with the fact that the game I like is going away from me. But on a larger scale I believe it is the right thing for WoTC to be doing, and the only thing I'm questioning is whether they're doing it RIGHT or not.

QuoteIt's cool to actually watch people in the process of ejecting themselves from the mainstream.

How the fuck would you know? You've never been anywhere near the mainstream. I have serious doubts you could even see the mainstream, much less make judgements over those of us who are in it, over from "storygame swamp".  

And shit, the mainstream is a pretty fucking wide stream.  Only the worst sort of marginals are incapable of fitting into it.  The fact that the Mainstream will now be turning a little toward the new direction 4e is going in won't suddenly make D&D 3e, or D&D 1e or RC D&D or GURPS or Shadowrun or CoC or countless other games still Mainstream.

Your games, however, will continue to be stuck in the brakish waters of the swamp.

RPGPundit

Quote from: TonyLBAh yes ... if only the folks at WotC would realize how inferior their game designs are when compared with Pundit's.

Well, if their goal was "cool" then yes, obviously, they can't compete with the Pundit. :cool:

Except I think their goal isn't really "cool". They're just using that word. Their real goal is to emulate a video game, at which they seem to be succeeding admirably. In a video game, you don't get to freeform or be creative, you get a fixed "deck" of possible moves and special powers that you have to manage in a per-fight basis.

RPGPundit

Good point re. coolness, Pundy.

And Phony Tony has now reduced himself from snake oil merchant to threadcrapper. What a career, what a trajectory.

...good job, guys. Pick on the kid no one likes. You're the kings of the playground now. :rolleyes:

Quote from: TonyLBWhat I'm interested to see is how people's arguments shift if (no, let's be honest, when) 4e sells vastly more copies than anything else in the market.

Like, if a person today says "Well, I liked AD&D, but 3.5 is pants" (love that phrase) then the argument is often "Look, it sells like gangbusters, so there's got to be something there that people like ... you being unable to see it says something unflattering about you, but says nothing about the game itself."  I'll be interested to see whether folks stick to that syllogism when it's about a game they don't like.

It's cool to actually watch people in the process of ejecting themselves from the mainstream.

Which is what I've done, if you'll note, from the start.  I've said all along it's not about whether 4E is objectively good or bad.  I fully expect it to sell well - better than previous versions.  I expect that the Living Realms will outshine Living Greyhawk. It will appeal to a whole lot more people, I think.  And I think it's a good step in order for Hasbro/WotC to gain the kind of dominance in the MMO-like world when 5E comes out that it has in the TT market now. The king is dead, long live the king.

And that's when I realized that it's just a matter of the world moving on without me.  I've past my prime.  I'm on the downhill side.  It was fun while it lasted!  I'm just getting old/sentimental and my preferences reflect that. I admitted that from the start.

Perhaps just some aren't used to people admitting it's their own problem in an Internet chat/forum.

As before, and always until it's released, I reserve judgement on WotC's implementation of what-I-think-will-be-something-not-too-unlke-what-Sett's-saying maneuver system and all other sorted and asundry design issues until I actually see the game.

Quote from: James J SkachWhich is what I've done, if you'll note, from the start.

Very true.

Quote from: TonyLBVery true.

And you know what? I have to thank the people in this very forum for making that happen.  Why?

Well, when I first heard the news and then started hearing information on what was being discussed in terms of the design, it was unsettling to me. When I came on this forum and expressed that discomfort, the folks here, intentionally or not, prince, pundit, or pauper, jackass or nice, helped me really think about, and examine, how and why I felt the way I did.

So thanks all! Good job! Well done!

Quote from: RPGPunditThe D&D guys know who they're making the game for, and they know its not me.  They're trying to make it for the 15 year old WoW player.  And that's what I've been telling them to do all this time.
Its where they have to go if the hobby is going to prosper. The only question is whether or not they'll succeed at it.

I still don't get this. Forgive me if I'm being slow, but how does a pen and paper/miniatures RPG become as good at being like WoW as WoW and other computer games are? How do you attract kids into something that is a less easy to use simulation of something else they can allready do?

Quote from: CabI still don't get this. Forgive me if I'm being slow, but how does a pen and paper/miniatures RPG become as good at being like WoW as WoW and other computer games are? How do you attract kids into something that is a less easy to use simulation of something else they can allready do?

One argument is that maybe WoW, for all its sophistication and success, is only imperfectly serving the desires of some of its constituency.

Maybe they want something else, and would flock to it if it existed, but flock to WoW instead as the closest approximation.

If that is the case, and the developers of D&D 4E can figure out by watching the development and play of WoW where that actual need is, and how to serve it better than that would make for a very successful game.

Now, personally, I think that people playing WoW by and large want to be playing WoW.  But I also don't think that gamers, even WoW enthusiasts, often live by WoW alone.  So making a game that appeals to those folks when they're in the mood for something else ... also a solid strategy.

Quote from: TonyLBNow, personally, I think that people playing WoW by and large want to be playing WoW.  But I also don't think that gamers, even WoW enthusiasts, often live by WoW alone.  So making a game that appeals to those folks when they're in the mood for something else ... also a solid strategy.

Solid strategy? Time will tell. I'm not totally convinced.

Quote from: TonyLBNow, personally, I think that people playing WoW by and large want to be playing WoW.  But I also don't think that gamers, even WoW enthusiasts, often live by WoW alone.  So making a game that appeals to those folks when they're in the mood for something else ... also a solid strategy.

If WotC can publish a game that appeals to even 5 per cent of the people who play WoW and want something more tactile and social, then they'll have a massive hit.

Quote from: CabI still don't get this. Forgive me if I'm being slow, but how does a pen and paper/miniatures RPG become as good at being like WoW as WoW and other computer games are? How do you attract kids into something that is a less easy to use simulation of something else they can allready do?

That's the question.  In my opinion, if they make the game a direct imitation of WoW without anything to really differentiate it from the experience other than that it has no graphics, no sound, no online convenience, and you have to spend time rolling up shit, then the whole concept won't work.

The right idea would be for the game to be still recognizeably D&D, to still be about Roleplaying, but geared more towards a younger audience and the things they enjoy.  Then it would not only work, but would likely still be palatable to the existing audience.

However, it looks like this isn't the way they're going, judging by the aggresiveness they're expressing toward existing D&D and its fans.

RPGPundit

Honestly,

The PR so far doesn´t at all look like they actually have a Master Plan for bringing in the young ones.