I really dig the Warblade.
He has nice options, not all of them via Maneuvres. He can run around the battlefield, jump, ride and most importantly tumble.
He´s got feats AND Maneuvres, some of his Maneuvres let him emulate a feat when it´s apropriate, and thusly keep him more flexible in fightery fighter stuff, instead of forcing him to be a self-type-casted one-feat-tree-trick pony.
He is also a Rockstar with EVERY weapon, if he practices an hour in the morning with it. THAT`S Figh-tor being fightery! Awesome!

BUT: The Maneuvre System has serious flaws.

Why are those relevant?
Because it looks like it gets all Maneuvrery in 4e.

What are those flaws?

Boredom. Having a Maneuvre card to play does not equal "doing something cool every round".
+2D6 damage is just as boring as Power Attack. The "extra damage by committe decision" is unfun. Just like the eldritch blast is boring. It´s not cool, because it´s repetitive, and it´s doing a no-brainer effect.

I don´t actaully need to play the character! The Player behind the character becomes superfluos. That´s especially true for my current character, a Crusader.
He gets his Maneuvres randomized.
So there´s actually no meaningful decision to be made.
Sure, I get a kewl power every turn.
But actually, I get a perfectly balanced effect.

Without Player input, I do the damage/effect I´m supposed to do.
Again, a Crusader or Warlock is a puppet on strings.

And these are the dangers of the B9S approach: Giving out per encounter / at will powers, that don´t increase choices, but present a bland and balanced optimal choice.

A wizard pulling out a crossbow is at least as lame as a wizard doing his allotted amount of damage via a "kewl" blast power. And actually, the Wizard who brought along his crossbow, alchemist´s fire or marbles at least thought of it himself, and it cost some money or has other llimitations.

The mantra "something cool every turn" can go sour on the game and the players very easily. A special effect isn´t so special if it´s built into the game. If "go to monster and hit the monster" is boring, so is "touch attack for damage approved by the balancing council".

This is my greatest fear regarding 4e. If it goes sour, I told you so.

Quote from: SettembriniIf it goes sour, I told you so.

Yes you did. Many, many, many fucking times.

Quote from: SettembriniA wizard pulling out a crossbow is at least as lame as a wizard doing his allotted amount of damage via a "kewl" blast power. And actually, the Wizard who brought along his crossbow, alchemist´s fire or marbles at least thought of it himself, and it cost some money or has other llimitations.

Or more importantly, the player has had to think about something other than combat in preparing for the adventure. I'm far more concerned about 4th ed being more like a miniatures combat game and less like an RPG than any edition of D&D since Chainmail.

There will be people who love 4e.

There will be people who think it is pants.

Just like every other iteration of the game.

And I´m calling dibs on being the one who pointed out one upcoming problem!

This has got nothing to do with liking 4e or not.

The basic argument is: at-will-powers aren´t "special". So if the argument is, you get stuff at will or per encounter-> this doesn´t guarantee having something cool to do every turn.

Actually it´s harder to get something cool to do, if there´s a free optimal no-brainer thing to do, like the eldritch blast.
It´s a huge design trap.

Quote from: SettembriniAnd I´m calling dibs on being the one who pointed out one upcoming problem!

This has got nothing to do with liking 4e or not.

Sure it does.

Person (Group/Forum/Whiny-Little-Bitch) A says "4e is really stinky and boring and stuff", Sett crows "woo-hoo! I was right, bitches."

Meanwhile, WotC-koolaid-drinker B is like "4e Rawks! This is better than a blowjob from Vanna White!" Sett's not gonna gulp and take his lumps because person B's take on thing doesn't allow him to stroke his ego-manhood. He's gonna quote person A in threads and say he was right.

What I'm interested to see is how people's arguments shift if (no, let's be honest, when) 4e sells vastly more copies than anything else in the market.

Like, if a person today says "Well, I liked AD&D, but 3.5 is pants" (love that phrase) then the argument is often "Look, it sells like gangbusters, so there's got to be something there that people like ... you being unable to see it says something unflattering about you, but says nothing about the game itself."  I'll be interested to see whether folks stick to that syllogism when it's about a game they don't like.

It's cool to actually watch people in the process of ejecting themselves from the mainstream.

Slaad you are misreading me, or have a grudge against me. That is irrelevant.

Please adress the problem at hand:

How to make at-will powers into something cool?

Are eldritch blasts interesting for you?

Quote from: SettembriniSlaad you are misreading me, or have a grudge against me. That is irrelevant.

Please adress the problem at hand:

How to make at-will powers into something cool?

Are eldritch blasts interesting for you?

No, eldritch blasts aren't interesting to me. I wasn't sensing that you were really soliciting solutions; it seemed like the rhetorical posturing was your point. That's what I was addressing.

But to the question of "how do you make at will powers cool"? AFAIAC, at-will powers aren't cool, for reasons you have already stated: you do things repetitively, they become normal. Familiarity breeds contempt. That's why I'm not in love with the whole "at will" and "per encounter" push that was born with the Warlock and the Book of 9 Swords.

The closest in Book of Nine Swords I have seen is the Crusader, because they are implicitly limited in what abilities they can use every round and mix it up.

A similar case is the "mix-up tricks" in Spycraft introduced in the recently released Practice Makes Perfect. The idea is simple... you have a bag of tricks--special maneuvers that you can try every round. You get a bonus if you use one you haven't used in the last 3 rounds.

Quote from: TonyLBWhat I'm interested to see is how people's arguments shift if (no, let's be honest, when) 4e sells vastly more copies than anything else in the market.

Again, its not about how many copies you shift relative to other RPGs currently on the market so much as how many copies you shift relative to other edtitions of D&D. The ordinary rules about what does or does not sell do not seem to apply when discussing something that is so far in a way a market leader like D&D.

Quote from: TonyLBIt's cool to actually watch people in the process of ejecting themselves from the mainstream.

The wise among us won't be assigning values to our personal opinion based on how many people in the mass market are buying something. Really, it seems sort of pointless and lacks perspective. RPGing is a niche hobby in the first place; the larger "mass market" likes Britney Spears (or they did... she seems on the outs...) and NFL. Other than the real issues of getting people to play with, how many other people play what you like isn't anything to take slight over.

As far as that goes, my own personal problem is playing with people who never moved to 3.5 from 3.0 and convincing them to upgrade. I don't suspect swimming upstream against 4e adopters is going to be a huge problem for me.

If many new people play 4e, I´ll be happy.

And if Necromancer Games succesfully puts the 1e into the 4adventures, I´ll be playing it.

And most people online ARE excited about 4e.
I´m not even against it, I´m just totally underwhelmed so far. Nothing inspiring, nothing even to hate!

Just raised eyebrows or shrugs.

And the per encounter conundrum will be a hard nut to crack.
I say this as a B9S fan.

Quote from: SettembriniAnd most people online ARE excited about 4e.

Really? I'd have thought that would depend on where you ask.

Quote from: SettembriniHow to make at-will powers into something cool?

At-will powers will be cool. Per-encounter powers will be super-cool. Per-day powers will be super-duper-cool. And it sounds like 4E will be a cinematic fantasy superhero game, which I have no interest in. When I hear the word "tumbling" I reach for my gun.

Quote from: TonyLBIt's cool to actually watch people in the process of ejecting themselves from the mainstream.

I think my next campaign will be OD&D, so you might want to start reading my blog.