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I mean 'picked up' physically, not 'purchased'.  Something I couldn't help but notice skimming through this...

Now, I've never played 'Pathfinder' because it's one of those games that comes up all the time by some over-enthusiastic weirdo, and he's like "Oh yeah?  Well PATHFINDER is waaaaay better you guys, you've never played it?  I can't believe it.  You need to play it."

Call me a contrarian, but when something's pitched like that to me I kind of get a little irked by it.  BUT- I couldn't help but notice...

Just skimming through this thing, it looked like... D&D third edition.  With 'multiculturalism' or something, which is fine, but.... this is D&D 3e... right?  Or what am I missing?

Do I need to go back to the store and get this thing, and pay actual money for it... or did I discover something that's 'old news' to everyone else?

Old news.

Yes. Pathfinder is 3/3.5e D&D. Its why Pathfinder was so popular as IT kept 3e alive when WOTC abandoned it for 4e.

Dont feel bad. I did not know PF was 3e either till about 2 years ago.

Quote from: Crüesader;905145I mean 'picked up' physically, not 'purchased'.  Something I couldn't help but notice skimming through this...

Now, I've never played 'Pathfinder' because it's one of those games that comes up all the time by some over-enthusiastic weirdo, and he's like "Oh yeah?  Well PATHFINDER is waaaaay better you guys, you've never played it?  I can't believe it.  You need to play it."

Call me a contrarian, but when something's pitched like that to me I kind of get a little irked by it.  BUT- I couldn't help but notice...

Just skimming through this thing, it looked like... D&D third edition.  With 'multiculturalism' or something, which is fine, but.... this is D&D 3e... right?  Or what am I missing?

Do I need to go back to the store and get this thing, and pay actual money for it... or did I discover something that's 'old news' to everyone else?

It's D&D 3e with bolted on, and often, badly implemented house rules in which they needed to add a whole know mechanic system for dealing with certain issues.  It was touted as 3.75 by the fans who've also claimed at the time that it was (and I wish I was making it up) the Second Coming of D&D.

Pathfinder is possibly the best reason, from a business standpoint as to why the OGL was a terrible idea.  For an amazingly (and I'm serious for 40USD, or your regional equivalent, unless you're in Canada, and then they roll 3D6 and add that many dollars to the price) low cost, they rewrote all of the D20SRD, added on some changes and art, and are now reselling it as a whole 'new' product.  It was a brutally intelligent and shrewd move.  It changes JUST enough to invalidate most of the 3.x stuff, yet looks so much like it, that some people convince themselves that their old stuff is still good.  And then spend about 20 hours more than they want to convert, and end up tossing it out because Paizo has already put out a book on it, replacing the one they were reworking in the first place.

Quote from: Crüesader;905145I mean 'picked up' physically, not 'purchased'.  Something I couldn't help but notice skimming through this...

Now, I've never played 'Pathfinder' because it's one of those games that comes up all the time by some over-enthusiastic weirdo, and he's like "Oh yeah?  Well PATHFINDER is waaaaay better you guys, you've never played it?  I can't believe it.  You need to play it."

Call me a contrarian, but when something's pitched like that to me I kind of get a little irked by it.  BUT- I couldn't help but notice...

Just skimming through this thing, it looked like... D&D third edition.  With 'multiculturalism' or something, which is fine, but.... this is D&D 3e... right?  Or what am I missing?

Do I need to go back to the store and get this thing, and pay actual money for it... or did I discover something that's 'old news' to everyone else?

Pathfinder is basically D&D 3.75. They made a point of updating a lot of the totally cockamamie rules, fixing some of the really broken spells, giving lame duck classes more stuff, etc. But it's still an OGL 3.5 basis game.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

Complete with SRD.

It is, I'd say, better than 3.5 was. It's still D&D 3.x

Quote from: Crüesader;905145I mean 'picked up' physically, not 'purchased'.  Something I couldn't help but notice skimming through this...

Now, I've never played 'Pathfinder' because it's one of those games that comes up all the time by some over-enthusiastic weirdo, and he's like "Oh yeah?  Well PATHFINDER is waaaaay better you guys, you've never played it?  I can't believe it.  You need to play it."

Call me a contrarian, but when something's pitched like that to me I kind of get a little irked by it.  BUT- I couldn't help but notice...

Just skimming through this thing, it looked like... D&D third edition.  With 'multiculturalism' or something, which is fine, but.... this is D&D 3e... right?  Or what am I missing?

Do I need to go back to the store and get this thing, and pay actual money for it... or did I discover something that's 'old news' to everyone else?

It D&D 3.75e and you can read all the details here as 90% of the rules are open content.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

So basically if I have 3/3.5 D&D this book would be a waste.  Got it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905151Pathfinder is possibly the best reason, from a business standpoint as to why the OGL was a terrible idea.

In some fairness, the OGL worked as intended right up to the day WotC decided to reboot the line with a non-compatible new edition on the theory everyone would follow just for the brand name.  And even then, less of an "eff you" attitude on WotC's part around licensing for 4e might have brought by Paizo along, depending on who you ask.  But yes, poor long term or contingency planning, certainly.

Quote from: Crüesader;905156So basically if I have 3/3.5 D&D this book would be a waste.  Got it.

Well, no. If you want something that's less broken it's a perfectly cromulent investment. Unless you like referencing internet documents.

Now if you don't give a shit about where D&D 3.x explodes, then yes it's a waste of money.

Quote from: Dave R;905158In some fairness, the OGL worked as intended right up to the day WotC...

No.  It did not.  The thing is, you apparently never saw this, I forget who, but a third party publisher was cutting whole chunks out of the PHB and reselling them as their own books, because OGL let them legally.  The license was a horrible idea from a business stance.  For us the consumer, it was fucking AWESOME, we could by what we wanted, ignore the rest.  But for WoTC, when you have a company chopping out bits, like the Arcane Spells and Divine Spell lists and putting into an 4x6" paper back book and not seeing any profits from those says that's horrible business.

PF is sorta like the undead corpse of D&D 3E. WOTC thought they'd let it die, Paizo brought it back and now nothing can kill that monstrosity!

The deal with Pathfinder is that Paizo was the company that put out Dungeon (and Dragon) magazine for WOTC in the 3.5 era. As part of their company's  schtick, they put out "adventure paths", basically 8 connected modules. However, when WOTC decided to dump 3.5, they also dropped the magazines (at least as print products) and Paizo was kinda left in the lurch. So they decided to simply carry on, only with their own version of 3.5, dubbed Pathfinder (after Adventure "Path")

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905161No.  It did not.  The thing is, you apparently never saw this, I forget who, but a third party publisher was cutting whole chunks out of the PHB and reselling them as their own books, because OGL let them legally.  The license was a horrible idea from a business stance.  For us the consumer, it was fucking AWESOME, we could by what we wanted, ignore the rest.  But for WoTC, when you have a company chopping out bits, like the Arcane Spells and Divine Spell lists and putting into an 4x6" paper back book and not seeing any profits from those says that's horrible business.

Mongoose was the company that did that. But I'm skeptical they made much, if any, money off of it. D&D almost certainly had far larger print runs, thus the profit margin for WOTC was higher than Mongoose.  (And to Mongoose's credit, they released the rules of their Runequest Legend and Traveller games under the OGL, the former resulting in OpenQuest and GORE)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905161No.  It did not.  The thing is, you apparently never saw this, I forget who, but a third party publisher was cutting whole chunks out of the PHB and reselling them as their own books, because OGL let them legally.  The license was a horrible idea from a business stance.  For us the consumer, it was fucking AWESOME, we could by what we wanted, ignore the rest.  But for WoTC, when you have a company chopping out bits, like the Arcane Spells and Divine Spell lists and putting into an 4x6" paper back book and not seeing any profits from those says that's horrible business.

That's just a conspiracy theory.

Mongoose was a successful third party publisher, but they were just one of many, and their Pocket Magica didn't push them into the lead. In fact, there's no indication it was even one of their best selling products. By the time it came out, most of the third party market had moved to OGL games (i.e. new games, based on D&D, like Mutants & Masterminds) and had largely given up on making supplements for D&D using the d20STL and just the bare OGL. (The shift was a response to the d20 bust, when Wizards published v.3.5 and the market for 3.0 supplements tanked.) Even earlier, there were a ton of SRDs, nicely formatted replacements for the core of third edition, none of which seemed to make the slightest splash. People bought third party products, and that led to the d20 boom. But far, far more people bought D&D. The brand, not the knock offs.

Paizo actually beat Wizards of the Coast for a while on the ICv2 sales charts, the first time an official version of D&D was beat by... well, anything. Even Vampire at the height of the goth craze in the 1990s didn't manage that. Pathfinder was a market changer.

The OGL contributed, because it allowed someone to jump in with a clear inheritor of third edition (and Piazo was perfectly positioned to do so, thanks to their long history of publishing both official D&D products -- like Dragon and Dungeon -- and their own successful line of third party products).

Without the OGL, Pathfinder wouldn't have happened. And without Paizo, it wouldn't have happened. But the only reason they had a chance was because Wizards shot themselves in the foot by fracturing their own fanbase.

And here I thought it would be a story how you dropped it on your foot, and limped for half an hour, thus deciding not to bother with books of such thickness:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;905182And here I thought it would be a story how you dropped it on your foot, and limped for half an hour, thus deciding not to bother with books of such thickness:D!

That was the other thing.  I tend to be apprehensive of books that seem uncomfortable to hold while you're on the crapper.

And now you know why no one steals my books.

Quote from: Crüesader;905156So basically if I have 3/3.5 D&D this book would be a waste.  Got it.

No.

Pathfinder was initially released around 2007-2008. Years later it consists of hundreds of books, rules variations, mutations, extentions and plug-ins not to mention separate games running on its core mechanics (some damn awesome). Therefore, contrary to popular beliefs, Pathfinder is now much more than "3.5+ badly implemented house rules". You might not be happy with specific books, find them useless, or even pointless, but as a whole it's a massive ecosystem that no longer should be perceived as "oh, just a collection of patches and erratas.".

Fun fact: plenty of people collect PFRPG books because they find them very well done, nice to look at & such. I recall Paizo admitting that - they said they understand that they realize some people who buy their books never put them into actual use. ;)

Quote from: Crüesader;905184That was the other thing.  I tend to be apprehensive of books that seem uncomfortable to hold while you're on the crapper.

And now you know why no one steals my books.

or play with them.

Quote from: Crüesader;905156So basically if I have 3/3.5 D&D this book would be a waste.  Got it.

No.  Pathfinder is based on D&D 3.5 but not identical to it.  It has a lot of tweaks here and there to make the system work better.  One is consolidating skills to simplify skill selection and use.  Search, spot and listen are all consolidated into the perception skill in Pathfinder for example.  I think it runs better than D&D 3.5 but YMMV.  Paizo also makes an extensive line of material written for Pathfinder that would require conversion to use with D&D 3.5.  Whether that matters to you depends on how much you are interested in the stuff Paizo is putting out.

I run Pathfinder regularly and I consider it an improvement over D&D 3.5 but it is what it is.  It's a flavor of D&D.  As for the physical book, I run Pathfinder regularly and own one but I never use it at the tabletop.  I use the PRD.

Pathfinder drives me crazy, it's similar enough to 3.5ed that I can never keep the differences straight but different enough that I actually have to keep them straight. Made my brain hurt. It also seemed to systematically make all of the things I didn't like about 3.5ed worse.

With TSR D&D on the other hand I could never keep the differences between different versions straight but that didn't ever really matter.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905186Fun fact: plenty of people collect PFRPG books because they find them very well done, nice to look at & such. I recall Paizo admitting that - they said they understand that they realize some people who buy their books never put them into actual use. ;)

Didn't they also admit that some of their fans buy their adventures to read, not play?

Quote from: One Horse Town;905189or play with them.

Actually, in most groups I play with- we all have our own books or at least a PDF.  The only exception will be the GM, who'll usually have others.

Quote from: Pat;905196Didn't they also admit that some of their fans buy their adventures to read, not play?

I believe so.

Quote from: Daztur;905195Pathfinder drives me crazy, (...)

What's your opinion towards PFRPG-based games, like Midgard, Freeport, The Great City?

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905186No.

Pathfinder was initially released around 2007-2008. Years later it consists of hundreds of books, rules variations, mutations, extentions and plug-ins not to mention separate games running on its core mechanics (some damn awesome). Therefore, contrary to popular beliefs, Pathfinder is now much more than "3.5+ badly implemented house rules". You might not be happy with specific books, find them useless, or even pointless, but as a whole it's a massive ecosystem that no longer should be perceived as "oh, just a collection of patches and erratas.".

Fun fact: plenty of people collect PFRPG books because they find them very well done, nice to look at & such. I recall Paizo admitting that - they said they understand that they realize some people who buy their books never put them into actual use. ;)

Quote from: yosemitemike;905190No.  Pathfinder is based on D&D 3.5 but not identical to it.  It has a lot of tweaks here and there to make the system work better.  One is consolidating skills to simplify skill selection and use.  Search, spot and listen are all consolidated into the perception skill in Pathfinder for example.  I think it runs better than D&D 3.5 but YMMV.  Paizo also makes an extensive line of material written for Pathfinder that would require conversion to use with D&D 3.5.  Whether that matters to you depends on how much you are interested in the stuff Paizo is putting out.

I run Pathfinder regularly and I consider it an improvement over D&D 3.5 but it is what it is.  It's a flavor of D&D.  As for the physical book, I run Pathfinder regularly and own one but I never use it at the tabletop.  I use the PRD.

You two might actually have me considering the purchase.  I'll see if I can't find one of those bookstore gift cards that I got and see if I can knock it down below $30.00.  If so, it'll be a purchase.

Anything really useful you suggest ordering if I buy it?

Quote from: Crüesader;905200Anything really useful you suggest ordering if I buy it?

1. Check reviews first. PFRPG is one of those games certain people love to hate, so pretty much everything what was released is already covered by someone out there. Reviews might be biased, but you can read between lines and find what the stuff is all about.
2. Make sure you really need the physical book. SRD contains pretty much all official material and stays up to date.
3. Don't think about CRUNCH alone. PFRPG features metric ton of fluff/setting focused books.
4. Some suggestions (in this specific order):

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ief

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8x64?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Campaign

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8ffn

http://paizo.com/products/btpy978v?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Advanced-Class-Guide

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8rv2?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Advanced-Race-Guide

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8fo1?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Advanced-Players-Guide

...and of course bestiaries.

The rest are purely optional IMHO, but these ones are damn useful.

As for 3rd party stuff, I strongly suggest looking at what Dreamscarred and Kobold Press have in stores. They produce really useful stuff.


Oh, do remember, that it is useful to stop perceiving Pathfinder as "merely" sword & sorcery fantasy.

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Nowadays it's OFTEN like this:

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In fact, if you think about it, Pathfinder's setting resembles now old installments of Might & Magic, especially Xeen stage.

Quote from: Crüesader;905200Anything really useful you suggest ordering if I buy it?

This is a minor thing, but check out what printing of the Core Rulebook you're about to buy. Paizo incorporates errata each time a book has a new printing, and the Core Rulebook is currently on its sixth printing, so that's ideally the one you want.

Insofar as "really useful" goes, you're best served by checking out the PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderrpg/prd%5B/url) and d20PFSRD (http://d20pfsrd.com). The former is Paizo's own repository of the Open Game Content from their hardcover books, while the latter is a fan repository of Paizo's Open Game Content from their hardcover books, a lot of their softcover books, and some of the more-acclaimed third-party books.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905206Oh, do remember, that it is useful to stop perceiving Pathfinder as "merely" sword & sorcery fantasy.  /snip/

In fact, if you think about it, Pathfinder's setting resembles now old installments of Might & Magic, especially Xeen stage.

I'm not familiar with that.  But I do like the whole magitech and weird west stuff.  Where can I get that?

Fun fact, I always thought the Warforged were cool as hell, but no one wants you to be a Warforged Juggernaut.  Plebs.

Quote from: Crüesader;905209I'm not familiar with that.  But I do like the whole magitech and weird west stuff.  Where can I get that?

By default, the game is void of both "magitech" and Fantasy Weird West, they show up in additional sourcebooks.

FWW's most iconic thing is Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) class which was first (IIRC) introduced in Ultimate Combat sourcebook, alongside Ninja and Samurai.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8mcz?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Combat

There are some additional elements, like equipment, and scenarios that put Gunslinger class into use, but so far there's not that much material covering FWW.

There's more material for "magitech" which, among other things, allows to play as Android (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/android-16-rp) PC:

http://paizo.com/products/btpy98i0?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-Technology-Guide

http://paizo.com/products/btpy978l?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-Numeria-Land-of-Fallen-Stars

and a whole campaign (Adventure Path) titled "Iron Gods":

http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/ironGods/

There are also some nice scenarios (modules) that take place in Numeria, where technology meets magic:

http://paizo.com/products/btpy97n7?Pathfinder-Society-Scenario-6-03-The-Technic-Siege

QuoteFun fact, I always thought the Warforged were cool as hell, but no one wants you to be a Warforged Juggernaut.  Plebs.

PFRPG has its own version of Warforged, called Gearforged (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/kobold-press/gearforged) (my, my, how original!) introduced in 3rd party supplement:

http://paizo.com/products/btpy925h/discuss?Advanced-Races-3-Gearforged

And I agree, people who fear the Juggernaut are philistines.

I liked Pathfinder right up until the end of the beta when they decided to take a machete to the Fighter because it was deemed 'OP' compared to almost every other class that could waggled it's dick and reshape reality.

As for the art a few posts above mine, how to Piazo not get crucified by the SJW crowd for that first piece of art?  Male gaze and cheesecake galore.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;905217As for the art a few posts above mine, how to Piazo not get crucified by the SJW crowd for that first piece of art?  Male gaze and cheesecake galore.

That's why:

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lgcn

http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Anevia_Tirabade

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/2e979bf539bf6f49727ffa7ff56f5a5c/tumblr_mugnvxHvuJ1supsaho3_500.jpg)

Once you throw homosex and genderfluidity in, you're "protected". :D

Quote from: Crüesader;905184That was the other thing.  I tend to be apprehensive of books that seem uncomfortable to hold while you're on the crapper.

And now you know why no one steals my books.

Because they're afraid you could track them by some mysterious way:)?

Quote from: Crüesader;905209I'm not familiar with that.  But I do like the whole magitech and weird west stuff.  Where can I get that?

In Deadlands, (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82745/Deadlands-Reloaded-Players-Guide) of course!

Accept no second-hand substitute;)!

Quote from: JeremyR;905176Mongoose was the company that did that. But I'm skeptical they made much, if any, money off of it. D&D almost certainly had far larger print runs, thus the profit margin for WOTC was higher than Mongoose.  (And to Mongoose's credit, they released the rules of their Runequest Legend and Traveller games under the OGL, the former resulting in OpenQuest and GORE)

Actually, Green Ronin did this first with their Pocket Grimoire books. Again, they didn't bother updating these books to 3.5 so I suspect they were poor sellers.

Quote from: Crüesader;905200You two might actually have me considering the purchase.  I'll see if I can't find one of those bookstore gift cards that I got and see if I can knock it down below $30.00.  If so, it'll be a purchase.

Anything really useful you suggest ordering if I buy it?

Honestly if you're really on the fence, the SRD really does have pretty much the whole game, and the PDF is just $10 on Paizo's website.

No need to drop full print price until you actually know you want the product.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;905217As for the art a few posts above mine, how to Piazo not get crucified by the SJW crowd for that first piece of art?  Male gaze and cheesecake galore.

Paizo initially didn't care about that very much; there's a page in the Core Rulebook of Seoni (their iconic sorceress, who wears almost nothing) from the back with just a thong covering her ass. That isn't to say that they weren't trying to have diversity - they had quite a few races even among their Core iconic characters, and several women who were covered up - but they recognized that "diversity" meant having a wide appeal, and that includes having a sexy woman.

This isn't to say that the SJWs didn't go after them (https://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/paizo-thanks-for-not-being-full-of-race-fail-but/) for it, however.

Nowadays, Paizo does seem to be moving a bit more towards the SJW side of things, but only in small increments (enough so make me wonder if there's a schism within the company about this, as certain voices on their staff tend to pipe up with regards to this issue, while others seem to be notably silent).

The best thing about having the PF core book, is that you can beat your players with it when they get out of line. The thing is massive.

When a fellow gamer asks if they should buy the PF core. My response usually is to ask if they like 3.5. If they do I recommend it yet do point out that it's mostly rehash with a few house rules thrown in. If they don't I recommend against it. As it does very little to fix the flaws of 3.5. If one dislikes how Wizards overshadows Fighters in 3.5. The Pathfinder core does not do much to remedy the problem imo. As well i also warn anyone interested of some few bad design choices on the part of the devs. Their gun rules are horrible imo. Many fans told them that targeting Touch AC is a bad thing. Yet in the end went ahead and kept them in anyway. So now out of three ranged weapons in the game. One is way too powerful than the other two. At least two APs end up becoming turkey shoots against large creatures. Rise of the Runelords and Giantslayer as giants have horrible touch AC. It's almost guaranteed a Gunslinger will almost never miss imo .

Quote from: Crüesader;905200Anything really useful you suggest ordering if I buy it?

It all depends on what you want to do.  I really like Ultimate Intrigue but it would be almost useless for some sorts of campaigns.  Inner Sea Gods and The Inner Sea World Guide and very useful if you plan on using Paio's Golarion setting and much, much less useful otherwise.

Paizo's releases go through phases.  The content is clustered around the theme of whatever adventure path (essentially a published campaign in 6 parts) is coming out at the time.  The Iron Gods adventure path is themed around technology.  While it was coming out, there was a lot of sci-fi themed material put out.  The robot scorpion thing is from Iron Gods.  My Iron Gods group fought it.  The current one is Hell's Vengeance.  It's schtick is that the PCs are evil or servants of evil so you are getting books like Path of the Hellknight about playing evil characters.  When Strange Aeons starts coming out, expect lots of Lovecraftian stuff.

Another problem with Paizo release is many of them or hit and miss. More miss than hit imo. When designing new material they stubbornly refuse to find a proper middle ground. Either a option is too good or simply not worth taking. Guess which out of the two is more common. Here is a good example. The Craft Ooze feat: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/craft-ooze-item-creation

So I need to spend money and material crafting a ooze. As well taking other feats and skill points. To get a ooze I can't control and is not loyal to me. As well as even the rare intelligent oozes with created with this feat. Are still dumber than a bag full of hammers. If not mistaken in Ultimate Intrigue their a archetype that behaves exactly as the Frenzied Berserker. Why bring back a archetype that's a pain to use at the table and a liability. More than once on their website we have asked for decent options. As usual. Great fluff poor mechanics. I enjoy the rpg and play and run it. But man it could be a hell of a lot better imo.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905161No.  It did not.  The thing is, you apparently never saw this, I forget who, but a third party publisher was cutting whole chunks out of the PHB and reselling them as their own books, because OGL let them legally.  The license was a horrible idea from a business stance.  For us the consumer, it was fucking AWESOME, we could by what we wanted, ignore the rest.  But for WoTC, when you have a company chopping out bits, like the Arcane Spells and Divine Spell lists and putting into an 4x6" paper back book and not seeing any profits from those says that's horrible business.

Except that not how it worked out. The 3.5 era ended because Wizards sunset the rules in favor of 4th edition. All throughout the 3.5 era most publishers would up doing their own thing with the d20 rules and the 3.5 crowd was pretty much in a Wizards only mode.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;905245The best thing about having the PF core book, is that you can beat your players with it when they get out of line. The thing is massive.

That's one of the reasons I'm a Hero System fan. (I keed, I keed)

Quote from: Alzrius;905243Paizo initially didn't care about that very much; there's a page in the Core Rulebook of Seoni (their iconic sorceress, who wears almost nothing) from the back with just a thong covering her ass. That isn't to say that they weren't trying to have diversity - they had quite a few races even among their Core iconic characters, and several women who were covered up - but they recognized that "diversity" meant having a wide appeal, and that includes having a sexy woman.

This isn't to say that the SJWs didn't go after them (https://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/paizo-thanks-for-not-being-full-of-race-fail-but/) for it, however.
.

Nothing like a little sinful female skin showing to get 'em riled up.

Quote from: estar;905298Except that not how it worked out. The 3.5 era ended because Wizards sunset the rules in favor of 4th edition. All throughout the 3.5 era most publishers would up doing their own thing with the d20 rules and the 3.5 crowd was pretty much in a Wizards only mode.

Mostly, but there were some non-Wizards lines for D&D 3.5 that were successful, notably Pathfinder Society.  I don't think it was anything like as popular as Forgotten Realms but it was doing okay.

To those who clarified things for me here:

I managed to sift through the Christmas cards I got, and between a bookstore gift card and a Visa gift card I managed to scoop up the book and spent only ~$16.00 of my own pocket money.  I did some searching on the Adventures and stuff, and it seems like there's quite a bit.

Also, I kinda dig the artist for this book.  Not real keen on their attempt to turn every weapon into the game into an exotic version of the weapon, but it's interesting.  Especially like the portrayal of the Cleric as a sort of Arabian Lady.  

Downloaded Iron Gods free PDF, too.

So, basically I think now I'll be able to play a sort of low-key Android Adventurer.  Not sure which class to go with yet, and I've always been partial to Fighters...

Quote from: Crüesader;905344To those who clarified things for me here:

I managed to sift through the Christmas cards I got, and between a bookstore gift card and a Visa gift card I managed to scoop up the book and spent only ~$16.00 of my own pocket money.  I did some searching on the Adventures and stuff, and it seems like there's quite a bit.

Also, I kinda dig the artist for this book.  Not real keen on their attempt to turn every weapon into the game into an exotic version of the weapon, but it's interesting.  Especially like the portrayal of the Cleric as a sort of Arabian Lady.  

Downloaded Iron Gods free PDF, too.

So, basically I think now I'll be able to play a sort of low-key Android Adventurer.  Not sure which class to go with yet, and I've always been partial to Fighters...

You like Wayne Reynolds art?  OK, to each their own.  He does have a great sense of colour, but proportions?  Not so much.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905347You like Wayne Reynolds art?  OK, to each their own.  He does have a great sense of colour, but proportions?  Not so much.

It is very stylized, and the proportions are off (but I'm an amateur and can't do much better art).  I do like how he's got the guts to make elves look creepy again.

I don't play PF but a guy in the game store explained to me that the whole PF product line may have ruined itself when they came out with some sort of revised classes book. Every revised version of the class is, as I understand it, much better than the original and thus the originals don't get played much anymore in campaigns that allow this particular rulebook. He thought they were setting the stage for Pathfinder 2E or something like that.

What annoyed me about PF is that the GM's in the store I frequent were telling new players not to buy product off of the shelf but to get the free downloads off of the internet. If you are going to play in a store, you ought to support that store.

Quote from: finarvyn;905360What annoyed me about PF is that the GM's in the store I frequent were telling new players not to buy product off of the shelf but to get the free downloads off of the internet. If you are going to play in a store, you ought to support that store.

That's weird that Pathfinder annoyed you because of low-life players who steal.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905364That's weird that Pathfinder annoyed you because of low-life players who steal.

It's not really stealing.  The guys were running games/GMing at a FLGS and instead of showing new players the books (which would make them seem like good people, help the store, and make them seem like members of the community), they said "Yeah you can get this stuff for free".  I mean, you can do both.

Quote from: finarvyn;905360I don't play PF but a guy in the game store explained to me that the whole PF product line may have ruined itself when they came out with some sort of revised classes book. Every revised version of the class is, as I understand it, much better than the original and thus the originals don't get played much anymore in campaigns that allow this particular rulebook.

Pathfinder Unchained had "unchained" versions of Rogue, Barbarian, and Summoner (not core).

Core rogue was a wet noodle, so it needed a little love.
Unchained Barbarian seems aimed more at playability and easing the "rage, get cut up, then die" syndrome of barbarians, not just a power-up.

They do a pretty decent job in balancing their new classes against the old (much better than Wizards did during the 3.5 era). My only complaint is that I am not a big fan of new class books as a major product line, and Paizo has gone a little down that rabbit hole (but again, in a more constructive manner than the cluster that was Wizards during the 3.5 era.)

Quote from: finarvyn;905360What annoyed me about PF is that the GM's in the store I frequent were telling new players not to buy product off of the shelf but to get the free downloads off of the internet. If you are going to play in a store, you ought to support that store.

That seems pretty dumb. Not that the FLGSes locally stock a lot of Pathfinder books. But Pathfinder minis seem to make pretty brisk sales, even among the 5e crowd.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;905366Pathfinder Unchained had "unchained" versions of Rogue, Barbarian, and Summoner (not core).

Core rogue was a wet noodle, so it needed a little love.
Unchained Barbarian seems aimed more at playability and easing the "rage, get cut up, then die" syndrome of barbarians, not just a power-up.

I'm guessing he was referring to the Advanced Class Guide, which had "hybrid" classes such as the arcanist, combining the abilities of a wizard and a sorcerer.

After the Core book, the Advanced Player's Guide is the most useful. It's the first PF book with newly designed classes and a bunch of new rules, like Archetypes. If the Core book is a rehash of 3.5, then the APG begins demonstrating what the Paizo team can do with an "old and dated" system.

The Advanced Race Guide is also pretty cool, especially for player-side crunch. It has a race builder section which is surprisingly accurate. We used that system for building alien races in a d20 Star Wars game.

The NPC Codex is one book that I find extremely valuable. It has statted NPCs of every class from the Core book (plus NPC and Prestige classes) at 1-20 levels. As a GM, it's super helpful, but as a player, I've used it to reverse-engineer certain builds. Helps to identify useful Feats and their chains, and spell arrays. This book would be great even if you were running 3.5, since WOTC never came out with a useful NPC book.

After the Core book, the Advanced Player's Guide is the most useful. It's the first PF book with newly designed classes and a bunch of new rules, like Archetypes. If the Core book is a rehash of 3.5, then the APG begins demonstrating what the Paizo team can do with an "old and dated" system.

The Advanced Race Guide is also pretty cool, especially for player-side crunch. It has a race builder section which is surprisingly accurate. We used that system for building alien races in a d20 Star Wars game.

The NPC Codex is one book that I find extremely valuable. It has statted NPCs of every class from the Core book (plus NPC and Prestige classes) at 1-20 levels. As a GM, it's super helpful, but as a player, I've used it to reverse-engineer certain builds. Helps to identify useful Feats and their chains, and spell arrays. This book would be great even if you were running 3.5, since WOTC never came out with a useful NPC book.

Quote from: Alzrius;905376I'm guessing he was referring to the Advanced Class Guide, which had "hybrid" classes such as the arcanist, combining the abilities of a wizard and a sorcerer.

If so, it's fallacious. Again with the exception of where the rogue is considered (Slayer), the book is fairly well balanced against the core, with a few corner case exceptions (one archetype seems to draw disdain on the Paizo forums for being a path to a "strictly better wizard").

Quote from: Crüesader;905365It's not really stealing.  The guys were running games/GMing at a FLGS and instead of showing new players the books (which would make them seem like good people, help the store, and make them seem like members of the community), they said "Yeah you can get this stuff for free".  I mean, you can do both.

Agreed it's not really stealing. If a rpg company is going to give their rules away for free online on a SRD. As much as I want to support a gaming store. I'm going to use the SRD and recommend others to do the same. That's why I like and both dsilike the SRD. I like it because it's free and they put everything online. I dislike it because between the choice of spending money on books or getting it for free. Which one is going to be more popular. The free option imo.

The Rogue in the Advanced Class Guide is vastly better than the core. It's what the Rogue should have been from the start. I'm actually seeing players taking Rogues. Or asking to switch to it. Usually players would take one level of Rogue than Bard. Or the Archeologist Archetype or similar one that allowed trapfinding. Monk received a small fix and still is problamtic imo.

Quote from: Nexus;905299That's one of the reasons I'm a Hero System fan. (I keed, I keed)

The other being that it will stop a rifle bullet.

Quote from: sureshot;905399Which one is going to be more popular. The free option imo.

SRDs don't feature images and don't look that well on your bookshelf, unless you're one of those DIY masters who produce Nceronomicon-level books in their spare time. ;)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-elf

vs

(http://cazadoresderecompensas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/dscn7413.jpg)

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905410SRDs don't feature images and don't look that well on your bookshelf, unless you're one of those DIY masters who produce Nceronomicon-level books in their spare time. ;)

Agree for a few other reasons.
I've never had a book run out of battery power. :)
I often read RPG books (among other books) in bed before dropping off to sleep. I wouldn't find it as convenient with a tablet or laptop.
I also find it easier at the gaming table to flip through a physical book than to page through a pdf or online webpage.
I'll get a PDF when it's cheaper, but if it's a game I'm seriously going to play, I'll also/instead get a hardcopy.

As I said I prefer print so I'm in agreement with you both.

Though if a gamer has money troubles or simply not willing to spend the money on a print book. It's kind of a hard sell to tell him to buy it at a game store. When one can get all the information for free on the online SRD. Or a cheaper price on Amazon.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905364That's weird that Pathfinder annoyed you because of low-life players who steal.

hog wash balder dash and poppy cock the kind of people who say using a free version that the company gives away freely is stealing are the same kind of morons who try and tell you buying a used copy is stealing.
 because they didnt get there cut.
and its bull shit thats business.

Quote from: sureshot;905399Agreed it's not really stealing. If a rpg company is going to give their rules away for free online on a SRD. As much as I want to support a gaming store. I'm going to use the SRD and recommend others to do the same. That's why I like and both dsilike the SRD. I like it because it's free and they put everything online. I dislike it because between the choice of spending money on books or getting it for free. Which one is going to be more popular. The free option imo.

funny i still buy gaming books and im a poor son of a bitch

Quote from: kosmos1214;905437hog wash balder dash and poppy cock the kind of peaple who say using a free version that the company gives away freely is stealing are the same kind of morons who try and tell you buying a used copy is stealing.
 because they didnt get there cut.
and its bull shit thats business.

... He didn't say it was stealing. He said it was bullshit to use a store's facilities but not give them money.

Someone else suggested that it might be stealing.

Did you quote the wrong thing?

Edit: This post made sense made sense earlier.

Quote from: Jetstream;905449... He didn't say it was stealing. He said it was bullshit to use a store's facilities but not give them money.

Someone else suggested that it might be stealing.

Did you quote the wrong thing?

Looks back it seems so oops

ps. thank you

Off topic:  Why would you buy something used?  It's smarter to just pirate it, or in the case of the PFSRD go and use the free tools provided.  Buying used doesn't benefit the original creator of the product and takes your money, but if you use the SRD, the original creator still doesn't get any money, but you're not out an outrageous amount of cash better spent on snacks.

To the OP, Pathfinder DOES do some good things for 3.5 you may want to steal (metaphorically speaking as the articles in question are covered by the OGL), off the top of my head (and which are the only two that ever stick with me...) is the changes to Cleave and Great Cleave, instead of triggering another attack on death of target, they work on HIT, you just need to tag it and you can attack a secondary and/or tertiary foe.  The other one is the Paladin's Smite change, if you miss it's still 'up', so it doesn't feel like a waste of a strike.

So at the very least, I suggest going through the SRD and picking what you like.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905456Off topic:  Why would you buy something used?  It's smarter to just pirate it, or in the case of the PFSRD go and use the free tools provided.

Because you want a bound, hard copy, not a pdf or electronic tools? That seems pretty self-evident.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905457Because you want a bound, hard copy, not a pdf or electronic tools? That seems pretty self-evident.

This argument works if the article is out of print.  Pathfinder is not.  Pay full price and support Paizo.

Back when it came out, Pathfinder was a pretty good deal because you had a good 'final release' of 3.5, all in one book, and also, you could purchase it on Amazon at a quite reasonable price (for a while there, 3.5 books were not cheap - my contacts at Powell's books told me that 3.5 was flying off the shelves whenever they'd get in used copies after 4.x came out). I ran two campaigns using PF rules. What I find interesting is that there has often been talk about a PF 2.0, but not much movement in that regard. I think sticking with the 3.5+ is exactly their plan, and introducing more and more products around that. If I were going to start a new campaign with rules of similar complexity now, Id go with D&D 5. But then, all the OSR alternatives offer their own special kinds of fun, and Id more likely want to run a LotFP or DCC game.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905460This argument works if the article is out of print.  Pathfinder is not.  Pay full price and support Paizo.

Trying to make the argument that it's unethical to buy second hand unless an item is out of print (I see now that your comment about piracy was passive-aggressive crap actually throwing moral judgement at someone for buying a second-hand item and accusing them of stealing from the publisher) is rather sad and ridiculous.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905456Off topic:  Why would you buy something used?

I need to use it, and I don't want to damage my own copy + I don't wanna pay full price.

Bear in mind, that while...

QuoteIt's smarter to just pirate it

...not everyone is into pirating, not everyone prefers e-reading. In case of former, I assure you, there are things in-print you won't pirate and in case of latter, there are additional factors: PDFs are often unoptimized, sluggish, like to freeze for a few seconds per each new screen, doesn't feature good navigation links. Internet is unreliable, sites go down, like someone observed earlier - there might be a problem with energy...

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905467I need to use it, and I don't want to damage my own copy + I don't wanna pay full price.

Bear in mind, that while...



...not everyone is into pirating, not everyone prefers e-reading. In case of former, I assure you, there are things in-print you won't pirate and in case of latter, there are additional factors: PDFs are often unoptimized, sluggish, like to freeze for a few seconds per each new screen, doesn't feature good navigation links. Internet is unreliable, sites go down, like someone observed earlier - there might be a problem with energy...

You missed the point, just as I did. Piracy is bad, and is stealing food from the mouth of the publisher, just like buying second hand. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905468You missed the point, just as I did. Piracy is bad, and is stealing food from the mouth of the publisher, just like buying second hand. :rolleyes:

Poe's Law. It's hard to tell whether your interlocutor is serious at the moment, so until people clarify it, I assume everyone is. :)

Best thing to do with Pathfinder IMO is use the materials to run 5e. The system itself is a nightmare once you go above 6th level.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905468You missed the point, just as I did. Piracy is bad, and is stealing food from the mouth of the publisher, just like buying second hand. :rolleyes:

I LOL'd.

But really, I'd rather save a book from the trashpile.  The publisher will be fine.  Call me 'entitled', but I try to be careful with my money.  Too many life-changing emergencies to throw money at new shinies for shelf price if I can avoid it.

I'm the guy that used to carry in a bunch of old games to get store credit to buy a pre-owned game.

Rules wise pathfinder is a mess in dire need of cleaning up. It could learn a few things from Trailblazer, Fantasycraft and 13th age, or even True20.

It's called an owner's manual, not a core rulebook. We're talking about Nissans, right?

Quote from: S'mon;905487Best thing to do with Pathfinder IMO is use the materials to run 5e. The system itself is a nightmare once you go above 6th level.

http://p6codex.com/

;)

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;905496Rules wise pathfinder is a mess in dire need of cleaning up. It could learn a few things from Trailblazer, Fantasycraft and 13th age, or even True20.

More than just "a couple things", but if it wasn't a mess, it wouldn't be much like 3.5, would it:D?

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905468You missed the point, just as I did. Piracy is bad, and is stealing food from the mouth of the publisher, just like buying second hand. :rolleyes:

You all jest, but this is exactly what's driven a lot of major video game publishers into bankruptcy in the last six years and the impetus behind the XBox One's original transport license scheme for playing used games or loaning a game to a friend.

Quote from: daniel_ream;905514You all jest, but this is exactly what's driven a lot of major video game publishers into bankruptcy in the last six years and the impetus behind the XBox One's original transport license scheme for playing used games or loaning a game to a friend.

I'm going to be the douchebag and ask for a citation on which companies.

Anyway, this is a bit of an odd case, as Paizo themselves put that stuff up on the web. I'm willing to bet that they're willing to let people play stuff for free, in hopes that there is some portion that buy stuff eventually.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;905516I'm going to be the douchebag and ask for a citation on which companies.

I'm going to have ask for the same.  I know that in the video game side, it's why publishers revile Gamestop.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;905516Anyway, this is a bit of an odd case, as Paizo themselves put that stuff up on the web. I'm willing to bet that they're willing to let people play stuff for free, in hopes that there is some portion that buy stuff eventually.

Well, they're banking on the fact that a lot of people prefer a copy they own than having to surf a website.  Which is smart, because it makes them money anyway, and they look sympathetic to their fans (which whether or not they are doesn't matter.  The appearance does.)

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905457Because you want a bound, hard copy, not a pdf or electronic tools? That seems pretty self-evident.

beat me to it

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905466Trying to make the argument that it's unethical to buy second hand unless an item is out of print (I see now that your comment about piracy was passive-aggressive crap actually throwing moral judgement at someone for buying a second-hand item and accusing them of stealing from the publisher) is rather sad and ridiculous.

and again beat me to it

Quote from: Crüesader;905491I LOL'd.

But really, I'd rather save a book from the trashpile.  The publisher will be fine.  Call me 'entitled', but I try to be careful with my money.  Too many life-changing emergencies to throw money at new shinies for shelf price if I can avoid it.

I'm the guy that used to carry in a bunch of old games to get store credit to buy a pre-owned game.

yah realy thats life but it can still suck i sure didnt plan on taking care of the house hold for 3 months when my dad had his stroke.
but i did good example of why stuffing unneeded money in a shoe box is a good thing  

Quote from: daniel_ream;905514You all jest, but this is exactly what's driven a lot of major video game publishers into bankruptcy in the last six years and the impetus behind the XBox One's original transport license scheme for playing used games or loaning a game to a friend.

im normally the last person to say this but citation needed big time

I'm not sure how anyone who plays video games could have missed THQ and Atari going under.  That and the used game "problem" being covered ad nauseam when the Xbox One launched.  Ever bought a THQ game (DiRT series, I'm looking at you) used and discovered that a third of the game was "DLC" already on the disc?  Those are all attempts to regain revenue from the used market because the AAA game market has crashed.

I enjoy being able to throw a bit of money at small businesses creating a product that I enjoy. I pre-ordered Xenonauts early in production, then backed them at Kickstarter at a fairly high level as well because I like the product and wanted the company to succeed. I buy merch from bands at their gigs if the band impresses me with their attitude, even if I'm unlikely to listen to them much in future. The only roleplaying books I can think of that I've bought second hand were for AD&D 1E, which was out of print at the time. I generally buy RPing material direct from the publisher when I can.

But the idea that I, or anyone, has an obligation to give money to a company because they create something I like (or might potentially like) is ridiculous. If an RPG company is losing a significant amount of money to second-hand sales (and those sales aren't creating enough customers that end up buying anything outside the second-hand market) they need to have a long, hard think about their business plan, and also consider why so many people who have bought their game have decided to sell it off cheap. You could just as easily argue that players are obligated to buy rulebooks if they enjoy the game, whether or not they're necessary, or that you should only buy direct from the publisher (unless you use an FLGS as a play space), or that if you watch a movie with a friend on DVD or Netflix that you should buy a copy of the DVD or a Netflix subscription yourself. This is all crap, and while producers may wish you did all those things, it's up to them to convince you that it's worth your while. Casting the discussion as a moral or ethical imperative is disingenuous at best.

Note also that, if buying second hand is unethical, so too is trying to sell stuff you no longer use, since you're accepting money that should, according to this theory, be going to the publisher.

Quote from: daniel_ream;905559I'm not sure how anyone who plays video games could have missed THQ and Atari going under.  That and the used game "problem" being covered ad nauseam when the Xbox One launched.  Ever bought a THQ game (DiRT series, I'm looking at you) used and discovered that a third of the game was "DLC" already on the disc?  Those are all attempts to regain revenue from the used market because the AAA game market has crashed.

Hog wash

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THQ#Bankruptcy_and_liquidation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCAVbPaw5SI

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905562I enjoy being able to throw a bit of money at small businesses creating a product that I enjoy. I pre-ordered Xenonauts early in production, then backed them at Kickstarter at a fairly high level as well because I like the product and wanted the company to succeed. I buy merch from bands at their gigs if the band impresses me with their attitude, even if I'm unlikely to listen to them much in future. The only roleplaying books I can think of that I've bought second hand were for AD&D 1E, which was out of print at the time. I generally buy RPing material direct from the publisher when I can.

But the idea that I, or anyone, has an obligation to give money to a company because they create something I like (or might potentially like) is ridiculous. If an RPG company is losing a significant amount of money to second-hand sales (and those sales aren't creating enough customers that end up buying anything outside the second-hand market) they need to have a long, hard think about their business plan, and also consider why so many people who have bought their game have decided to sell it off cheap. You could just as easily argue that players are obligated to buy rulebooks if they enjoy the game, whether or not they're necessary, or that you should only buy direct from the publisher (unless you use an FLGS as a play space), or that if you watch a movie with a friend on DVD or Netflix that you should buy a copy of the DVD or a Netflix subscription yourself. This is all crap, and while producers may wish you did all those things, it's up to them to convince you that it's worth your while. Casting the discussion as a moral or ethical imperative is disingenuous at best.

Note also that, if buying second hand is unethical, so too is trying to sell stuff you no longer use, since you're accepting money that should, according to this theory, be going to the publisher.

Exactly no company of any kind is guaranteed success and if your strategy is not working you need to be smart enough to reevaluate it.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905562Note also that, if buying second hand is unethical, so too is trying to sell stuff you no longer use, since you're accepting money that should, according to this theory, be going to the publisher.

This is actually a fallacious statement.  Most people are not buying old copies of a product for a pittance and reselling it multiple times.  Which is what happens with used video games.  In fact, you can have the same copy of the same game sold 4 or 5 times, for an outrageous mark up.  Whereas the person selling the book that they no longer use, even if they're selling it at a profit, isn't going to buy it back for 10% of what they asked for, and then turning around and selling it to someone else for 10x that 10%.

Please do not use this strawman to make yourself feel better about used product shops.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905569This is actually a fallacious statement.  Most people are not buying old copies of a product for a pittance and reselling it multiple times.  Which is what happens with used video games.  In fact, you can have the same copy of the same game sold 4 or 5 times, for an outrageous mark up.  Whereas the person selling the book that they no longer use, even if they're selling it at a profit, isn't going to buy it back for 10% of what they asked for, and then turning around and selling it to someone else for 10x that 10%.

Please do not use this strawman to make yourself feel better about used product shops.

i think you need to step in to a used book store

Quote from: kosmos1214;905571i think you need to step in to a used book store

Used to co-run one.

But it's off topic.

Pathfinder is a good pick up if you want to mine it for 3.x style ideas.  I still get ideas for my 5e game, but then I'm a system tinkerer.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905569This is actually a fallacious statement.  Most people are not buying old copies of a product for a pittance and reselling it multiple times.  Which is what happens with used video games.  In fact, you can have the same copy of the same game sold 4 or 5 times, for an outrageous mark up.  Whereas the person selling the book that they no longer use, even if they're selling it at a profit, isn't going to buy it back for 10% of what they asked for, and then turning around and selling it to someone else for 10x that 10%.

Please do not use this strawman to make yourself feel better about used product shops.

Ok, so in your world, it's perfectly ok to sell used game books, it's just not ok to buy them. Have fun with that.

Edit: Oh, by the way, you get bonus points for claiming I'm creating a strawman by comparing RPGs to video games, when I never once mentioned the second-hand video game market.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905574Ok, so in your world, it's perfectly ok to sell used game books, it's just not ok to buy them. Have fun with that.

Sounds like it to me.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;905516I'm going to be the douchebag and ask for a citation on which companies.

Anyway, this is a bit of an odd case, as Paizo themselves put that stuff up on the web. I'm willing to bet that they're willing to let people play stuff for free, in hopes that there is some portion that buy stuff eventually.

They're also in the business of selling APs, modules, and various accessories. The APs and modules aren't available freely from them, even if http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ and d20pfsrd.com both have monsters and rules from them available.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905562But the idea that I, or anyone, has an obligation to give money to a company because they create something I like (or might potentially like) is ridiculous.

You're/we're being trolled, man.  The guy's an apologist for outright piracy, so he's trying to draw an equivalence.  But in the wild, no non-trolls are saying don't buy used.

Quote from: Dave R;905584You're/we're being trolled, man.

Yes, that's the conclusion I was coming to.

Wow. I had no idea how Bat Shit Crazy Christopher Brady is. I mean. fucking. wow.

The OGL was one of the best things to happen to this industry and the hobby. It created far more than it destroyed. Most of the hand-wringing and teeth-grinding is easily traced back to pompously stupid business decisions. Not the OGL. Idiots who had no business being in business. From people who pumped out CRAPTASTIC poorly edited poser-art filled drivel to store owners picking up gads of anything with a d20 logo on it without so much as a moment of research... Just like in every disruptive innovation in every fucking industry since the beginning of time, some rise to the top and MANY fall to the bottom. It has ZERO at all to do with the disruption.

So, I'm curious CB, just what part of the stupid tripped you up? And then show me on the doll where it's the OGL's fault.

Unless that fucking license jumped off the page, kicked you in the nuts and stole your goddamn lunch money I'm pretty sure whatever happened you did it to yourself. So pull your big kid pants up and stop fucking crying about it.

What a bunch of piss-filled self-loathing disguised as authority.

"Boo Hoo, The OGL did bad things to me. Boo Hoo."

Jesus someone get this loser a tissue.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;905516Anyway, this is a bit of an odd case, as Paizo themselves put that stuff up on the web. I'm willing to bet that they're willing to let people play stuff for free, in hopes that there is some portion that buy stuff eventually.

Since it's published under the OGL and is open content, they don't have much choice.

Well, by this thread alone Pathfinder is turning out to be the most interesting thing I've ever bought.  I bring up Exalted or Dark Heresy and I get a shrug, but this shit is awesome.  Keep going guys!

Quote from: Crüesader;905632Well, by this thread alone Pathfinder is turning out to be the most interesting thing I've ever bought.  I bring up Exalted or Dark Heresy and I get a shrug, but this shit is awesome.  Keep going guys!

PFRPG being arguably the most popular and widely played RPG in its timeframe is destined to attract plenty of "love to hate" comments. There are, for example, certain sites where expressing hate towards PFRPG (while simultaneously swearing on the Holy Cross that Fantasy Craft and/or Dungeon World are best things that happened to the hobby) is a considered the most crucial element of local rite of passage. ;)

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905635PFRPG being arguably the most popular and widely played RPG in its timeframe is destined to attract plenty of "love to hate" comments. There are, for example, certain sites where expressing hate towards PFRPG (while simultaneously swearing on the Holy Cross that Fantasy Craft and/or Dungeon World are best things that happened to the hobby) is a considered the most crucial element of local rite of passage. ;)

TBH I have to admit there are very few gaming systems I've played that made me dislike the system.  Most of the time, it's the crowd that flocks to it (See: Vampire, Star Wars).

Quote from: yosemitemike;905611Since it's published under the OGL and is open content, they don't have much choice.

Is there something in the OGL that says they have to put it up on the web for free?

Quote from: Crüesader;905636TBH I have to admit there are very few gaming systems I've played that made me dislike the system.  Most of the time, it's the crowd that flocks to it (See: Vampire, Star Wars).

Well, if you ask me, I don't like mechanics relying on too many (subjectively speaking) variables (http://adragon202.deviantart.com/art/Shadowrun-Matrix-Rigging-Cheat-Sheet-426260019) and dice rolls to get the shit done, none of which can be easily dropped without burying oneself in heavy system butchering/tweaking.

Then there's weird lingo, like "flogums save versus habbaryan element and grant 10 blopooth per semi-quantil of fray, with the exception of skirmish-based encounters".

And I have a serious problem with systems that require truckloads of additional accessories to run.

"Roll 1d6 to hit" + charsheet featuring two fields: "already dead?" and "shit that helps me to not die" for me, thank you very much. :D

Quote from: Ratman_tf;905639Is there something in the OGL that says they have to put it up on the web for free?

No but it grants the right to copy the text for any purpose the user see fits as long as he continues to keep it open content. Hence we get stuff like http://www.d20srd.org/ for 3.5 itself and http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ an alternative to Paizo's PRD site. So if they don't do it somebody else will.

Quote from: estar;905643No but it grants the right to copy the text for any purpose the user see fits as long as he continues to keep it open content. Hence we get stuff like http://www.d20srd.org/ for 3.5 itself and http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ an alternative to Paizo's PRD site. So if they don't do it somebody else will.

To be fair, they could have kept more material Product Identity than they did, such as monster names and flavor text, etc., to say nothing of the new material that they create, such as the kingdom-building rules in Ultimate Campaign. That they didn't go the Monte Cook-route of crippling their Open Game Content is a point in their favor.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905574Ok, so in your world, it's perfectly ok to sell used game books, it's just not ok to buy them. Have fun with that.

Edit: Oh, by the way, you get bonus points for claiming I'm creating a strawman by comparing RPGs to video games, when I never once mentioned the second-hand video game market.

Quote from: kosmos1214;905575Sounds like it to me.

Then you both need reading comprehension skills because that's what you want to believe I said.  Projecting much?

Quote from: Dave R;905584You're/we're being trolled, man.  The guy's an apologist for outright piracy, so he's trying to draw an equivalence.  But in the wild, no non-trolls are saying don't buy used.

And where did I say this?  If you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it?  It's throwing money at the wrong people.  As for me, unless there's no other way to obtain it (And the only reason I emphasized that is because no one would pay attention it, or conveniently try and twist my words, yet again...), I will buy the product new, because it supports the creator.

The various percentages fluctuate between 10/30% profit for the average retailer.  The rest goes to the publisher/creator (which isn't as much as it looks as they have various costs too.)  However, buying a used product sends 100% the often slightly lower price to the retailer, and 0% to the publisher/creator.

Here's something else a lot of people don't seem to get:  No one sees the actual sales of the product, they extrapolate by the amount of money being reported/acquired.  And if something is being sold really well, but only when it's being bought used, the creator will look at the fact that they're not getting any money and believe that the product is not what people want after all.  It's what happened to the Darksider video game series, it did reasonably well as a used product, but no one (hyperbolic) bought it new.  So THQ (who is not going to see Gamestop's numbers) believed that the game wasn't good enough and shut down the studio that made it, shortly before shutting down their own operations.

So buying new is showing the publishers/creators that you want more of the said product.  That is what I'm advocating.  But if you only used, then you (the general, not anyone specific) have to accept that the creator is not going to see the money and make assumptions based on that, rather than what people say.  Which MAY (and that's a big maybe, especially in this hobby, because quite frankly profits are nigh non-existent) end up discontinued.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654If you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it?  It's throwing money at the wrong people.

An interesting observation.

Still, you're discussing merely a fraction of the Big Picture, and you're not taking into account other factors, like the fact that people often buy more than a single copy of a product, be it a game or a book, or whatever. And it's not that all people are suddenly gonna organize and share/resell only one copy of any given product ad infinitum. :D

Side note: what with public libraries (a book is bought only once, then readers are gonna read it instead of buying their own copy = publisher/author are losing money)? Or events like this one:

(https://motogokil.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/kapal-kargo-karam.jpg?w=591)

tl;dr: I don't think buyers are supposed to sleep worse because they resell stuff.

Quote from: trechriron;905610The OGL was one of the best things to happen to this industry and the hobby. It created far more than it destroyed. Most of the hand-wringing and teeth-grinding is easily traced back to pompously stupid business decisions. Not the OGL.

According to statements by WOTC staff and one I talked to. Actually Yes the OGL was a bad thing.

Firstly it proved how uttely false the "too many buckets" claim was as what did OGL do? It created nigh overnight a bazillian buckets. And most of those early buckets meant people were coming back to WOTC to pick up the core books. This was the initial success of OGL. It created a huge influx of sales.

Secondly it ended up being used in ways it wasnt intended. To literally steal older games under the cover of OGL. This still irks some over there. But is a minour point to the next.

Thirdly people started using it and the SRD to make complete games that didnt need the core WOTC books and here kids is where it fell apart massively for WOTC. Then WOTC made a series of poor choices leading up to 4e and then it really fell apart.

Fourth is as you point out. There was alot of dross and eventually it was a vast morass where any gems tended to get lost in the ocean of cheap costume jewelry.

Everyone I've talked to though has stated that initially the OGL was an astounding success. But very quickly became an ever increasing problem. The OGL also didnt really help the gaming industry. But thats a story for another day/thread.

The OGL though was a godsend to 3e fans as it allowed Pazio to swoop in and acquire a huge chunk of WOTCs customer base and prove why the edition treadmill and the "5 year plan" is a failure when executed like 4e was. Which nearly executed WOTC.

Quote from: Crüesader;905632Well, by this thread alone Pathfinder is turning out to be the most interesting thing I've ever bought.  I bring up Exalted or Dark Heresy and I get a shrug, but this shit is awesome.  Keep going guys!

Thats because Pathfinder is one of those really weird cases of being at the right place at the right time and having the jailer not only hand you all the keys. But then effectively handing you all the inmates too while trying to build a new jail that looks more like a hockey rink. ahem.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654But if you only [buy] used, then you (the general, not anyone specific) have to accept that the creator is not going to see the money and make assumptions based on that, rather than what people say.

You're trying to argue price theory to gamers.  Good luck with that, man.

This is the same reason the only video games I've ever paid full price on release day for are the Borderlands series.  I'm sending the "more of this, please" signal.  I've also given John Wick a couple hundred dollars to convince him to keep producing stuff because he was going to quit the industry due to massive piracy of his $5 games.

All the idiots ranting about how the OGL wasn't a problem - the OGL did exactly what it was intended to do, which was keep the publisher of D&D from being able to control it.  That's great for fans.  It sucks if selling D&D is what you need to keep the lights on and feed your family.

Like it or not, reselling used games, piracy, and the insistence on "free culture" is why things like Netflix, PSNow and Steam exist: they allow the publisher to control the content.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905642Well, if you ask me, I don't like mechanics relying on too many (subjectively speaking) variables (http://adragon202.deviantart.com/art/Shadowrun-Matrix-Rigging-Cheat-Sheet-426260019) and dice rolls to get the shit done, none of which can be easily dropped without burying oneself in heavy system butchering/tweaking.

Then there's weird lingo, like "flogums save versus habbaryan element and grant 10 blopooth per semi-quantil of fray, with the exception of skirmish-based encounters".

And I have a serious problem with systems that require truckloads of additional accessories to run.

"Roll 1d6 to hit" + charsheet featuring two fields: "already dead?" and "shit that helps me to not die" for me, thank you very much. :D

https://youtu.be/gtP1eyF8LgI

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905657(https://motogokil.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/kapal-kargo-karam.jpg?w=591)

Fucking hell!

Quote from: daniel_ream;905559I'm not sure how anyone who plays video games could have missed THQ and Atari going under.  That and the used game "problem" being covered ad nauseam when the Xbox One launched.  Ever bought a THQ game (DiRT series, I'm looking at you) used and discovered that a third of the game was "DLC" already on the disc?  Those are all attempts to regain revenue from the used market because the AAA game market has crashed.

Warhammer. It was all Warhammer.

On a sidenote, the new Homefront is shit. So shit MKIceandFire hasn't bothered to do more than two videos on it (and he playthroughs some shitty games).

Quote from: Crüesader;905636TBH I have to admit there are very few gaming systems I've played that made me dislike the system.  Most of the time, it's the crowd that flocks to it (See: Vampire, Star Wars).

Quote from: daniel_ream;905668You're trying to argue price theory to gamers.  Good luck with that, man.

This is the same reason the only video games I've ever paid full price on release day for are the Borderlands series.  I'm sending the "more of this, please" signal.  I've also given John Wick a couple hundred dollars to convince him to keep producing stuff because he was going to quit the industry due to massive piracy of his $5 games.

All the idiots ranting about how the OGL wasn't a problem - the OGL did exactly what it was intended to do, which was keep the publisher of D&D from being able to control it.  That's great for fans.  It sucks if selling D&D is what you need to keep the lights on and feed your family.

Like it or not, reselling used games, piracy, and the insistence on "free culture" is why things like Netflix, PSNow and Steam exist: they allow the publisher to control the content.

Wrong go open up a copy of any video game that actually has a manual flip to the back and read your leasing agreement!!!
You will learn that selling a used copy IS NOT PIRACY!!!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654If you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it?

I will take you at face value, and assume that you are sincere. The answer to your question is the same one I gave originally -- because you want a hard copy. I'll also add, "because you're not comfortable with stealing or running a scam in order to get it".

You seem to be of the opinion that desiring a hard copy of something automatically means that you should feel obligated to reward the original producer of that item and help ensure that they stay in business. For some reason, you also seem to feel that if you don't want a hard copy, that obligation is lessened (the latter may not actually be the case, because it seems you frequently say things that you don't intend to mean what you're saying).

If someone has a copy of something that I want, at a price I'm happy to pay, they are generally going to be exactly the right person to throw my money at, unless they're also engaged in some nefarious behaviour other than selling a second-hand item.

Now, if your argument was, "If you want to support Paizo and keep them in business, you should buy new," you'd have an excellent point. The problem is that you're asserting that anyone who decides that they want any given Paizo product should immediately feel an obligation to give a shit about Paizo beyond their current desire for that particular product.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654Here's something else a lot of people don't seem to get:  No one sees the actual sales of the product, they extrapolate by the amount of money being reported/acquired.  And if something is being sold really well, but only when it's being bought used, the creator will look at the fact that they're not getting any money and believe that the product is not what people want after all.  It's what happened to the Darksider video game series, it did reasonably well as a used product, but no one (hyperbolic) bought it new.  So THQ (who is not going to see Gamestop's numbers) believed that the game wasn't good enough and shut down the studio that made it, shortly before shutting down their own operations.

Not quite the same.

Most often when an RPG ends up on sale used that means the original buyer didnt like it and got rid of it. So all buying used does is transfer the game to the hands of someone who would have bought it anyhow. About zero loss there. PC/console games though are a different matter. You can play through a PC game to completion where you cannot with an RPG. Or at least by the time you've exhausted the RPG its likely long out of print.

There are though designers who have stated flat out that groups sharing a rulebook are stealing from the designer.

Quote from: Omega;905778There are though designers who have stated flat out that groups sharing a rulebook are stealing from the designer.

Side note: I'd love to see how original these games are, whether they couldn't be traced to good, old "D&D:FR only with a twist and sans a few things we didn't like" mindset. ;)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654And where did I say this?  If you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it?  It's throwing money at the wrong people.  As for me, unless there's no other way to obtain it (And the only reason I emphasized that is because no one would pay attention it, or conveniently try and twist my words, yet again...), I will buy the product new, because it supports the creator.

The 'creator' already got more than his 'support' when Big Books Inc. bought fifty copies and sold twenty-five.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654So buying new is showing the publishers/creators that you want more of the said product.  That is what I'm advocating.  But if you only used, then you (the general, not anyone specific) have to accept that the creator is not going to see the money and make assumptions based on that, rather than what people say.  Which MAY (and that's a big maybe, especially in this hobby, because quite frankly profits are nigh non-existent) end up discontinued.

Hold on.  I'm going to stop you right there.  

I don't give a flying fuck about Paizo, WotC, or OPP.  They aren't my friends.  We're not pals.  I'm not trying to make sure they have enough money to eat.

Some guy does this all on his lonesome?  Yeah, I'll do it.  I'll support a good indie product.

Maybe- just MAYBE- the publisher would see guys like me buying things 'new' if the only option wasn't a ~$60.00 hardcover book.  Give me a slimmed-down, less bullshit softcover and we'll talk.  Sell modules the same way.

The product has already been sold.  The person no longer wanted the product, and wanted a little pocket money.  You'll have to forgive me if I'd rather help another gamer out that's helping me out instead of worrying about a major publishing company.  Fuck them and fuck their feelings.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905739Now, if your argument was, "If you want to support Paizo and keep them in business, you should buy new," you'd have an excellent point. The problem is that you're asserting that anyone who decides that they want any given Paizo product should immediately feel an obligation to give a shit about Paizo beyond their current desire for that particular product.

There's also the possibility that the person who sold that used book will use that extra money towards buying a new product from the company. I don't see the zero sum game that some are seeing here.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654Then you both need reading comprehension skills because that's what you want to believe I said.  Projecting much?



And where did I say this?  If you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it?  It's throwing money at the wrong people.  As for me, unless there's no other way to obtain it (And the only reason I emphasized that is because no one would pay attention it, or conveniently try and twist my words, yet again...), I will buy the product new, because it supports the creator.

The various percentages fluctuate between 10/30% profit for the average retailer.  The rest goes to the publisher/creator (which isn't as much as it looks as they have various costs too.)  However, buying a used product sends 100% the often slightly lower price to the retailer, and 0% to the publisher/creator.

Here's something else a lot of people don't seem to get:  No one sees the actual sales of the product, they extrapolate by the amount of money being reported/acquired.  And if something is being sold really well, but only when it's being bought used, the creator will look at the fact that they're not getting any money and believe that the product is not what people want after all.  It's what happened to the Darksider video game series, it did reasonably well as a used product, but no one (hyperbolic) bought it new.  So THQ (who is not going to see Gamestop's numbers) believed that the game wasn't good enough and shut down the studio that made it, shortly before shutting down their own operations.

So buying new is showing the publishers/creators that you want more of the said product.  That is what I'm advocating.  But if you only used, then you (the general, not anyone specific) have to accept that the creator is not going to see the money and make assumptions based on that, rather than what people say.  Which MAY (and that's a big maybe, especially in this hobby, because quite frankly profits are nigh non-existent) end up discontinued.

I don't owe publishers or developers a damn thing. It's all based on the utility I will obtain from said product. Why buy used? Because of the marginal utility gained. As the marginal value decreases for said product so does my demand for said product.

I don't owe a publisher shit. They owe me. I'm their customer. I pay full price and pre-order all of Kenzer & Companies products because I like their products. Paizo is fully a thrift shop or used book store find because I won't pay full price for it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654Then you both need reading comprehension skills because that's what you want to believe I said.  Projecting much?



And where did I say this?  If you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it?  It's throwing money at the wrong people.  As for me, unless there's no other way to obtain it (And the only reason I emphasized that is because no one would pay attention it, or conveniently try and twist my words, yet again...), I will buy the product new, because it supports the creator.

The various percentages fluctuate between 10/30% profit for the average retailer.  The rest goes to the publisher/creator (which isn't as much as it looks as they have various costs too.)  However, buying a used product sends 100% the often slightly lower price to the retailer, and 0% to the publisher/creator.

Here's something else a lot of people don't seem to get:  No one sees the actual sales of the product, they extrapolate by the amount of money being reported/acquired.  And if something is being sold really well, but only when it's being bought used, the creator will look at the fact that they're not getting any money and believe that the product is not what people want after all.  It's what happened to the Darksider video game series, it did reasonably well as a used product, but no one (hyperbolic) bought it new.  So THQ (who is not going to see Gamestop's numbers) believed that the game wasn't good enough and shut down the studio that made it, shortly before shutting down their own operations.

So buying new is showing the publishers/creators that you want more of the said product.  That is what I'm advocating.  But if you only used, then you (the general, not anyone specific) have to accept that the creator is not going to see the money and make assumptions based on that, rather than what people say.  Which MAY (and that's a big maybe, especially in this hobby, because quite frankly profits are nigh non-existent) end up discontinued.

You assume I would buy it at full price. I won't. You seem to be a video gamer but I have a feeling you're young.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;905802There's also the possibility that the person who sold that used book will use that extra money towards buying a new product from the company. I don't see the zero sum game that some are seeing here.

Or that the person buying the used product was going to buy new but just got the used instead. If a company wants to increase their sales revenue they need to make products that provide enough value that people want to pay the full price. That's purely on the firm and not the consumer.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654So buying new is showing the publishers/creators that you want more of the said product.  That is what I'm advocating.  But if you only used, then you (the general, not anyone specific) have to accept that the creator is not going to see the money and make assumptions based on that, rather than what people say.  Which MAY (and that's a big maybe, especially in this hobby, because quite frankly profits are nigh non-existent) end up discontinued.

You are advocating a philosophy of supporting publishers you like, and there are many who share your feeling. But the book trade (and software trade) don't inherently work that way. The book trade also predates our hobby.

A physical game book is almost purely a physical product (with some legal prohibitions and maybe a grant, in the case of any opened OGL content). A physical game book gets worn out and can lose perceived value and utility through continuous use. You cannot easily 'clone' a book - you can try to reproduce it by photocopying or by scanning, but the result has less utility than the original (and then there are any issues of fair use, etc). My understanding of the book trade is that publishers are not getting 70% if they are going through distribution to reach retail, and more like 40%. I am sure they have stock rotation and stock balancing as well which can mess up your numbers.

Software is almost purely intellectual property. You are granted rights to use it. "Wear and tear" can happen to a physical delivery mechanism but that doesn't typically reduce the value of the software itself. Software rights can be transferable or non-transferable, and if its transferable the use of it is as pristine as the original purchase. I don't honestly see the 'used software' industry staying around in the next 5-10 years because I expect that all software will become subscription based. I do think piracy plays a role in demise of some studios but  that's because its one of many variables in a high risk industry where salaries are incredibly high and R&D planning is extremely difficult - I would never kickstart a software project without it being almost demonstrably finished and some additional value gained from supporting it (because it will eventually be available cheaper on Steam).

I usually buy on Amazon. The publisher is usually selling the book new, and often it is at a substantial savings because they are smart enough to understand price points on a high(er) volume retailer. That's where I got Pathfinder originally at close to 50% off cover price.

I get your argument that you may want to support a publisher, yet if you followed the discussion recently here about 'paying creators what they deserve' I think that point has been argued out for a lot of people. Pay full cover price and buy direct (maximize the creator benefit that way) if you want.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905654Then you both need reading comprehension skills because that's what you want to believe I said.  Projecting much?

You repeatedly bring this stuff upon yourself, but then magically it is anyone and everyone but you who are to blame. It's not them projecting or needing reading comprehension skills, it is you needing to learn how to communicate in an effective and constructive manner.

You have a point buried in these posts. A valid one regarding using the money one spends to influence the behaviors of the market from which you buy (although I don't think I agree, because buying and selling used books is a socially normatized action which the book producers expect in their business model). It's too bad that these points got made several posts after you suggested people's socially acceptable actions were not smart, their reasons fallacious, that other people are making strawmans (seriously, just stop using this word, you obviously can't be trusted to use it productively), that others need to 'make [them]sel[ves] feel better about used product shops,' etc.

Quote from: Lynn;905821You are advocating a philosophy of supporting publishers you like, and there are many who share your feeling.

Not entirely accurate for me.  Support the PRODUCT.  Unfortunately, they tend to be tied to specific companies.

But that's the last I'll say on this.

I've already given my suggestion:  Paizo put out their rules onto a website, and the OP who still wants to use his 3.x stuff, but may want to look into adding, modifying or otherwise tinker with the system, may want to peruse that website (provided for free and legally so) to see if there's anything in it for him.

For me, there's nothing more I can add on the original topic.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905867I've already given my suggestion:  Paizo put out their rules onto a website, and the OP who still wants to use his 3.x stuff, but may want to look into adding, modifying or otherwise tinker with the system, may want to peruse that website (provided for free and legally so) to see if there's anything in it for him.

They done that several years ago.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy89m6?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Conversion-Guide
It's a free download.

Quote from: yosemitemike;906006http://paizo.com/products/btpy89m6?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Conversion-Guide
It's a free download.

Shame on Pazio for stealing sales from Pazio! :rolleyes:

Quote from: Christopher BradyIf you're not going to support the publisher, why bother paying for it? It's throwing money at the wrong people.

Why bother paying for it? Because the book is in the possession of another person. In order to convince that person to part with the possession, they will likely demand something in trade, quite possibly in the form of currency.

What does the publisher get out of this? Knowing that you can always sell off books you aren't interested in allows people to be more frivolous in their buying decisions. The person selling their book secondhand might never have bought in the first place without the assurance that they could just flip it if it turned out not to interest them. Also, a gamer who just sold off his surplus books is quite likely to spend that money on more game books.

Quote from: Omega;906019Shame on Pazio for stealing sales from Pazio! :rolleyes:

Shame on a gamer for tryin' to run game on a gamer.

Thanks for the help everyone.  I'm new to this product, and after reading through the core rulebook... I kind of like it.  There's certainly some good stuff there, and it'll be easier for me to poach some D&D players over to this.  I know several D&D players that are not satisfied with 5e just yet- not by flaw of the product, but that it just hasn't 'blossomed' with additional content.  I also know a LOT of former 3.5 D&D players that might be interested in playing.

Now, I need even more help.  I've looked over the site, and it's not user-friendly.  So here's the issue-I like the paths, but do I need to get 5 books? Or do they have a compiled version?  What if I don't want the 'adventures', but I want the 'tools' from that adventure path (classes, races, gear, monsters, etc.)?

Quote from: Crüesader;906103Now, I need even more help.  I've looked over the site, and it's not user-friendly.  So here's the issue-I like the paths, but do I need to get 5 books? Or do they have a compiled version?  What if I don't want the 'adventures', but I want the 'tools' from that adventure path (classes, races, gear, monsters, etc.)?

Each Campaign (AP) consists of 6 episodes/stages, each covered by a separate book + a player's guide (usually FREE) describing basic information for the relevant AP (suggested gear, classes, some info about overall mood and such) + map folio. Each "stage-book" delivers next part of the campaign, but also discusses additional stuff that PCs might find in said campaign, like new enemies, organizations & societies, local history - things you could've probably read in other sourcebooks, but reduced to "LITE", "just enough" version.

For example: Kingmaker AP campaign contains enough information to launch functional, "build your own kingdom" scenarios and campaigns. These things are explained in length in Ultimate Campaign sourcebook, but if you don't need that level of detail, you get it for free with Kingmaker.

So. If I were you, I'd first download Player's Guide for the AP of your choice. This should prove to be enough to form an opinion whether the campaign is meant for you and your crew. Then, providing I'd lik the premise, I'd invest in 1st book and 1st book only. I've heard plenty of people saying that they lost interest in a few APs after the first episode.

Only then I'd consider buying additional books.

Oh, one more thing: Episodes aren't meant to be played separately, but it's not that it's impossible to use any stage as an independent story, especially not for a creative mind determined to get the shit done. For example: I've heard about a few groups starting Kingmaker AP at a later stage, and everyone involved were apparently happy with the outcome.

I hope this helps.

Quote from: Crüesader;906103Thanks for the help everyone.  I'm new to this product, and after reading through the core rulebook... I kind of like it.  There's certainly some good stuff there, and it'll be easier for me to poach some D&D players over to this.

True Story from the FLGS last night. I'm running Feng Shui and another player who I know from MTG circles jumps in. We'll call him Brian, because that's his name. The store owner (who is playing with us) mentions offhandedly how she has been asking around for people for Brian's campaign. I know nothing about this but quickly suss out this is a 5e game. Most of the rest of us at the table do our best to look occupied with other things, then David, one of the players who had apparently already been approached by Brian, launches into "I don't know how excited I am to play 5e," and they start a short discussion about how unsatisfied he is with the way 5e represents skills.

Cut to the end of the night. After the game is done, cyber-apes defeated, and we are headed out the door, I ask David is he was going to be make it to the next Pathfinder game (because we are running it the 16th, which I know clashes with the next MTG prerelease.) Mark, the guy who had been working the counter at the FLGS perks up with "you're running Pathfinder? When?"

So yeah. It's got some draw. :cool:

Quote from: Crüesader;906103Now, I need even more help.  I've looked over the site, and it's not user-friendly.  So here's the issue-I like the paths, but do I need to get 5 books? Or do they have a compiled version?  What if I don't want the 'adventures', but I want the 'tools' from that adventure path (classes, races, gear, monsters, etc.)?

Each AP is 6 books if you want to run them start-to-finish. Rise of the Runelords has a compilation:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tc0?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-Rise-of-the-Runelords-Anniversary-Edition

If you want the hardcover, it can be had for cheaper at amazon.

They are also planning on putting out a conversion/compilation of Curse of the Crimson throne.

Can't say too much about other material from the adventures. Some monsters/items get reprinted in bestiaries and books like Ultimate Equipment, but some never do. Most of it does eventually make its way into d20pfsrd.org, so if you are just looking for that one stat block that is perfect for your game, there's that.

Just to mention. Thier APs are written from the viewpoint that players are new to Pathfinder and making characters. Which is a good thing if your group is new top the hobby. Bad if they are inexperienced as many (too many imo) of their npcs are poorly designed imo. Even a slightly optimized group of four players will defeat them easily. I found myself having to rewrite major npcs as they were and still are poorly designed. For example in one of the APs your fighting against a caster in a enclosed area. Yet no crowd control spells. Or poor feat choices imo. Which kind of defeated the purpose for myself at least off buying a AP. Which is to save time. In my case the opposite. As well their Aps with map pack in canadain dollars comes out to 120-140$ with tax. So ask players to invest it in as well to buy them.

As well you may want to hold off buying more books to run the game as in August cheaper smaller pocket editions are going to be released. As well as their Curse of the Crimson Throne Adventure Path will be rereleased in Anniversary edition updated to Pathfinder rules in September 2016. A link to their release schedule: http://paizo.com/releasedate

Quote from: sureshot;906191Which kind of defeated the purpose for myself at least off buying a AP. Which is to save time. In my case the opposite.

While I agree with your opinion concerning some NPCs, I don't think it's harder to come up with their superior replacements, rather than produce whole campaign with coherent storyline, subquests, societies, maps, treasures, minis and whatnot...

Btw, you might find these links useful:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_npc.php (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_npc.php)

http://www.thegm.org/npcs.php (http://www.thegm.org/npcs.php)

http://tuskmountain.wikidot.com/monster-stat-generator (http://tuskmountain.wikidot.com/monster-stat-generator)

Just to add, some of the Adventure Paths (AKA APs) are known to be somewhat railroady as well, so other than the first book for extra content that the OP is asking for, he may want to look up the details of whatever one he's looking into.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;906201Just to add, some of the Adventure Paths (AKA APs) are known to be somewhat railroady as well, so other than the first book for extra content that the OP is asking for, he may want to look up the details of whatever one he's looking into.

I would 2nd this.  The APs are pretty darn railroady.  However, railroads can work pretty well with the right group (one of my groups really likes them) and the APs that I have run or read are pretty well-done railroads using epic scope and plot to move the story forward in specific directions that feel more natural than artificial.  Railroads have a bad rap, but some players like feeling that their characters are part of something bigger, while others feel like their free will is crushed by the driving plot.  It is a style of play that is not inherently good or bad.  It just suits some groups better than others, and it it's worth being aware of before you dive in.

I love Pathfinder.

I played every incarnation of D&D from that little box with the two red books in it, right up to 3.5, which I thought was the absolute best version of all. I hated 4e, and hate 5e even more. So Pathfinder lets me stay playing 3.5 - in an even slightly improved version - and have a game that is still current and has a good supply of books that I don't have yet.

I never use any published setting or adventures though. I prefer to make up my own.

Quote from: Crüesader;905145I mean 'picked up' physically, not 'purchased'.  Something I couldn't help but notice skimming through this...

Now, I've never played 'Pathfinder' because it's one of those games that comes up all the time by some over-enthusiastic weirdo, and he's like "Oh yeah?  Well PATHFINDER is waaaaay better you guys, you've never played it?  I can't believe it.  You need to play it."

Call me a contrarian, but when something's pitched like that to me I kind of get a little irked by it.  BUT- I couldn't help but notice...

Just skimming through this thing, it looked like... D&D third edition.  With 'multiculturalism' or something, which is fine, but.... this is D&D 3e... right?  Or what am I missing?

Do I need to go back to the store and get this thing, and pay actual money for it... or did I discover something that's 'old news' to everyone else?

I am sure others have said this but yes it is basically 3.75

I don't play pathfinder (I'd rather just play 3E) but it was quite smart of Paizo to do this when they did. It doesn't seem like it now but it was a brilliant move on their part to essentially keep 3E in print and support it when 4E came out. They were the publishers of dragon and dungeon at the time but my understanding is WotC basically cut them out...so they kind of got the ultimate revenge. Personally I am not a big fan of the way they do modules, which is their big draw...but I really have to admire how huge they got in the wake of 4E.

Quote from: Madprofessor;906220Railroads have a bad rap, but some players like feeling that their characters are part of something bigger, while others feel like their free will is crushed by the driving plot.  It is a style of play that is not inherently good or bad.  It just suits some groups better than others, and it it's worth being aware of before you dive in.

This is very elegant way to put it and I like it very much.

Screenshoting for further reference.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905347You like Wayne Reynolds art?  OK, to each their own.  He does have a great sense of colour, but proportions?  Not so much.

I think he is a good artist. I really don't understand the criticisms he gets from folks. The pathfinder aesthetic isn't to my taste but I still can see the attraction to it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;906298I think he is a good artist. I really don't understand the criticisms he gets from folks. The pathfinder aesthetic isn't to my taste but I still can see the attraction to it.

He's developed a sort of pseudo-manga style for Pathfinder that is I think is at the heart of it. I think it gives Paizo products their own distinctive look.

Quote from: Lynn;906310He's developed a sort of pseudo-manga style for Pathfinder that is I think is at the heart of it. I think it gives Paizo products their own distinctive look.

Yeah, to me it is very effective. I know it is pathfinder without even seeing the title just due to the art style. And his images always seem striking to me. It isn't going to appeal to everyone, but the images look fun, exciting and inspiring to me.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;906298I think he is a good artist. I really don't understand the criticisms he gets from folks. The pathfinder aesthetic isn't to my taste but I still can see the attraction to it.

Man, this is going to read so damn elitist, and I'm honestly sorry for it, but it's clear you don't actually draw.  But from someone who does, he short cuts way too much without actually mapping things out like perspective, body proportions and distance and size in general.  He obfuscates his issues with bright, bold and effective colour work that makes the images pop.  Unfortunately, those of us who know see right through it.

And I've already done this rant, so if you like his work, I'm not going to say anything more, but simply be in the corner twitching and sobbing.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;906362But from someone who does, he short cuts way too much without actually mapping things out like perspective, body proportions and distance and size in general.

This is true... but so what? It doesn't make the art 'bad'. It would be 'bad' if he was aiming to produce Vermeer-level realism, but he's not. It's got a very comic-book sensibility to it and gets the job done admirably. (I'm saying this as someone who DOES draw and has been to art school... just to counter your elitism with more elitism).

It kind of reminds me of the sculpting on modern GW figures. The basic forms are often implausible and bizarre... but then they festoon the things with so many details and gribbly bits and whatever that it ends up being more interesting than it ought to be. Some people hate it, but there's definitely an audience who loves it.

Quote from: Simlasa;906364This is true... but so what? It doesn't make the art 'bad'. It would be 'bad' if he was aiming to produce Vermeer-level realism, but he's not. It's got a very comic-book sensibility to it and gets the job done admirably. (I'm saying this as someone who DOES draw and has been to art school... just to counter your elitism with more elitism).

It kind of reminds me of the sculpting on modern GW figures. The basic forms are often implausible and bizarre... but then they festoon the things with so many details and gribbly bits and whatever that it ends up being more interesting than it ought to be. Some people hate it, but there's definitely an audience who loves it.

It's jarring, and takes me out of the illusion he's trying to create, that's what's bad.  If he can fool you 'well enough' that's great, but my eye simply won't let me accept it.  If I see something I note as 'wrong' (Which I fully understand as purely subjective) it screams at me.

So again:  me, corner, sobbing quietly to self.

[Edit]OK, just to expound and clarify on why it's 'Bad art', you just said it yourself, you CAN SEE the issues.  The whole point of drawing, sketching and comic style art is to fool the viewer into thinking a 2D image is 3D.  But if you can pick out the flaws while looking at it, then it's terrible.  It's sloppy.

Would you be proud of something you drew that was that bad?

Shortcuts work when they're based in the basics, the fundamentals, again, it's based on illusion and fooling the eye, but (and no pun intended again, but laughter accepted) it looks to me that Mr. Reynolds doesn't have those down yet.  After the last 8 years you'd think he'd improve on those.

That makes it objectively bad, but if you're OK with it, I'm not going to change your mind, nor is my intention to.

So back into my little corner I go.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;906298I think he is a good artist. I really don't understand the criticisms he gets from folks. The pathfinder aesthetic isn't to my taste but I still can see the attraction to it.

His perspecta are off sometimes, ok, alot of times. It can and does throw a whole piece off. Its usually not glaring. But its there and to some it produces a sense of broken perspective. Faces are another problem he seems to have now and then.

Others just dont like his style. Personally I really like how much detail he tends to get into every piece. And from what I've been told hes a real workhorse artist who gets stuff done on schedule. Though could be mixing that last up with someone else.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;906372That makes it objectively bad,

Jesus Christ. Chris, this isn't your week. Seriously.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;906391Jesus Christ. Chris, this isn't your week. Seriously.

So most art instructors and professional artists is wrong then?  Really?

OK, I lose, you win.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;906392So most art instructors and professional artists is wrong then?  Really?

OK, I lose, you win.

1st of all, Chris, I'm not here to attack you. It's merely a discussion, light in tone, no harm done, no harm intended.

That being said: Good is what people consider good. In this specific case, IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE, art is what people consider art. No theory, no mathematical proof, no such thing defines it. People do.

You're free to say that many people dislike it. You're free to say that it doesn't put color/perspective theory into action.

Objectively bad? The drawing style of the guy is liked by many. Therefore it's not objectively bad.

You know, Brady has said repeatedly that he's not trying to convince anyone and he bows to the opinion of the majority while reserving his right to his own standards of quality.  Maybe we can, you know, let him do that?

Quote from: daniel_ream;906400You know, Brady has said repeatedly that he's not trying to convince anyone and he bows to the opinion of the majority while reserving his right to his own standards of quality.  Maybe we can, you know, let him do that?

I think Chris is complicated in the way he thinks. I'd like to learn more about that.

Online art discussions/debates are almost always heated, IME. They involve taste and that's close to many people's identity which makes that touchy about criticism, especially in public and for artists it ties into their passion and maybe profession so their temperament is sensitive for largely the same reason. And the internet in general sucks as a medium for sensitive communication.

Edit: I don't have any skin in this particular game. I've never seen the guy's work. I have liked artists that many have claimed to be objectively bad and hated ones that allot of people thought were geniuses.

Quote from: Nexus;906407Online art discussions/debates are almost always heated, IME.

I'm not planning to go that far. ;)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;906362Man, this is going to read so damn elitist, and I'm honestly sorry for it, but it's clear you don't actually draw.  .

I definitely don't know how to draw. I am no artist. So I am not weighing in on the technical side. I just think the stuff looks good. I've seen arguments over his work between artists, and I will leave it to them to debate his use of things like perspective and proportion. I wouldn't just take the opinion of one guy who happens to draw as gospel though. I'd definitely hear other points of view from people with art training. In the end though, I file all that stuff under technique. Just like with music or writing, some people are better at different techniques and if their game is stronger elsewhere, as a listener/viewer, I am happy to enjoy their work. Jimmy Page is a bit of a sloppy guitar player, but he wrote some of the best riffs in the business, so I can put my knowledge of guitar performance aside and enjoy it.

I don't know if your post is elitist, but it doesn't help persuade me to your position.

Quote from: daniel_ream;906400You know, Brady has said repeatedly that he's not trying to convince anyone and he bows to the opinion of the majority while reserving his right to his own standards of quality.  Maybe we can, you know, let him do that?

His statement was phrased poorly. The trouble when you start tossing out terms like "Objectively bad" is you're essentially saying you opinion is the only right and valid one. Adding phrases like "but that's okay" or "I'm not going to argue." come across as meaning you're going let other people be wrong if the want to. You're calling your opinion a fact and tossing in a passive aggressive slight to their tastes, intelligence or whatever That rubs some the wrong way though it may not be how he meant it to come across.

For a hyperbolic example: If I say "Your game and/or play style is objectively bad and no fun but you can continue to play it if you want as you've deluded yourself into thinking you're having fun." That's probably not going to go over well with the fans of said game. Exaggerated yes, but that's how it can come across.

Edit: Christopher Brady's reaction is a common one,IME Artists often do notice technical flaws that laymen miss. That likely occurs in most creative fields. Sometimes they can ignore them, sometimes they can't, sometimes they excuse them as part of the artist in question particular style.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;906362Man, this is going to read so damn elitist, and I'm honestly sorry for it, but it's clear you don't actually draw.

If we are going to be elitist, I sit on the board of non-profit that provides art education. I also know a good number of life-ling professional illustrators, in fact the guy who did my avatar pic for me has work in the Smithsonian collection. I'm not saying I am a fantastic artist, but I dabble, and I talk about art a lot with people that make their living at it. Now that my credentials have been established...

Being a professional illustrator is about endless time-management. Most of what you do won't be your best work. If you want to eat, you need to realistic about what you can accomplish in the time you can set aside according to the amount that your client is paying you. Working for an RPG company, I am guessing you don't have time to go all out.

There is also the fact that many good artists simply have shortcomings. That doesn't make them "objectively bad". Look at Howard Pyle, the father of modern illustration and mentor to N.C. Wyeth and Harvey Dunn. He was not great with color theory and openly admitted it. That doesn't change the fact that he is the guy that invented the idea of what pirates look like in popular culture (https://www.google.com/search?q=howard+pyle&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_5cjEy9XNAhUr74MKHVe5C78Q_AUICCgB&biw=1920&bih=955#tbm=isch&q=howard+pyle+pirates). Being weak in color theory doesn't make an artist "objectively bad" if they have other merits.

There are only two things I don't like about Pathfinder art...

Silly big swords. Like the Barbarian class illustration.
But, mostly, goblins/hobgoblins. They look stupid and cartoony.

Quote from: Nexus;906407Online art discussions/debates are almost always heated, IME.

Edit: I don't have any skin in this particular game. I've never seen the guy's work. I have liked artists that many have claimed to be objectively bad and hated ones that allot of people thought were geniuses.

1: Ive done some art teaching and one of the most frustrating things is hammering into some artists heads the idea of proper perspective and how it can throw off an otherwise good or great piece. How even a little bit off can skew a whole piece. Proportions arent as much a problem as long as theres some consistency. But some artist just fail even basic anatomy FOREVER. The human head does not swivel that far around! Spines to not contort like that and unless you are my niece, human limbs do not bend in those directions.

2: Hers one example of his stuff. Placed in spoiler box as its a bit large. Good example of his strengths and weaknesses.

Spoiler

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SxqwjFA2bxI/UmgCUrANFiI/AAAAAAAAArc/bGcxUZnjBXg/s1600/npc+codex.png)

Quote from: Omega2: Hers one example of his stuff. Placed in spoiler box as its a bit large. Good example of his strengths and weaknesses.

Spoiler

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SxqwjFA2bxI/UmgCUrANFiI/AAAAAAAAArc/bGcxUZnjBXg/s1600/npc+codex.png)

Oh, I think I have seen some of his stuff then. I've liked what I've seen and I don't see the glaring problems in that one. But I'm not an artist.

Quote from: Nexus;906426Oh, I think I have seen some of his stuff then. I've liked what I've seen and I don't see the glaring problems in that one. But I'm not an artist.

Its nearly allways little things. Perspecta off kilter somehow. Or one I notice a few times from him is that things held have a tendency to not follow the flow of the hand or object. I was looking at anonther piece of his and the character was holding a sword. Except the hilt was at such an angle and elevation that it was passing through the fingers if it could be seen, and he covered that spot with a basket hilt. Another one is that he likes drawing rather flat nosed characters. Though thats a style rather than a problem. I know at least two artists who use a very similar style.

But as noted above. His art is really good and usually really crammed with details. Its akin to Larry Elmore's art with all the little details. His art is also usually very dynamic and he is really good at expressing high kinetic action in several of his pieces.

Quote from: Nexus;906407Edit: I don't have any skin in this particular game. I've never seen the guy's work.

OK, seriously you play RPG's, you post on an RPG forum. You've never seen any Pathfinder RPG product cover ever? Really? OK....

Quote from: Ronin;906432OK, seriously you play RPG's, you post on an RPG forum. You've never seen any Pathfinder RPG product cover ever? Really? OK....

Not so much that I know the artist by name and sight or have much of an opinion. Now that I've an example attached to a name I think I've seen a couple of other pieces by him but I'm not sure. But no I don't play Pathfinder, I don't read Pathfinder material, I have pretty 0 interest in the genre Pathfinder emulates or the system uses so I didn't even go into the section it was in when I went to the game store (I order online these days) so if I did see it it was a glance in passing. I've never played Pathfinder, I don't read threads about Pathfinder. I wouldn't claims to have seen any romance novel cover artist either but I read a great deal.


Does he do all the art in all the Pathfinder books? I've never heard of the guy before now.

Quote from: Nexus;906434Why would I lie about not having seen or recognizing a rpg illustrator?

Just seems improbable given this hobby

Quote from: Nexus;906434Does he do all the art in all the Pathfinder books?

Probably not all artwork. But every cover they have.

Quote from: Ronin;906437Just seems improbable given this hobby

There's people in this hobby that are only vaguely aware the games aside from whatever version of D and D they're playing exist :)

Touché :)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;906362Man, this is going to read so damn elitist, and I'm honestly sorry for it, but it's clear you don't actually draw.  But from someone who does, he short cuts way too much without actually mapping things out like perspective, body proportions and distance and size in general.  He obfuscates his issues with bright, bold and effective colour work that makes the images pop.  Unfortunately, those of us who know see right through it.

Chris, you make some great points esp if you were teaching a drawing class, but at the same time I do not agree with your conclusions. The matter of perspective and distance makes me think each character was designed to be a standalone piece of really high quality clip art and resizing stuff on Photoshop layers isn't a real substitute. When I look at his images with many characters, I visualize the layers.

What makes good art? You can attach 'good' to just about anything. For many artists, the best art is the art that makes them the most money, or enables them to command higher salaries because their particular style is now in demand. In that case, someone who designs something like the notorious Instagram icon is "good". I think what he does is intentional in his designs for Pathfinder, and if he were suddenly to apply different style metrics to his art, it would look less Paizo - and that's not good for the client.

Quote from: Ronin;906437Just seems improbable given this hobby

Probably not all artwork. But every cover they have.

1: Guess what. Up untill  about 4 months ago I'd never seen a single Pathfinder product or looked at a cover. Nor heard of the artist. Like Nexus I've probably seen his art here and there. But also nothing really drawn to my attention to look at till recently to connect.

2: Mostly covers but from what I am seeing on a quick search also a fair amount of interior pieces. How much or where? Who knows. I assume hes Pazios in-house artist?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;906372The whole point of drawing, sketching and comic style art is to fool the viewer into thinking a 2D image is 3D.

Really? That's news to me...  

QuoteBut if you can pick out the flaws while looking at it, then it's terrible.  It's sloppy.

You sound like one of those people at art shows who proudly announce, "Heck, my kid can draw better than that!"

I'm not a huge fan of this guy's stuff but I find it a whole lot more interesting than Elmore, despite Elmore striving for a more realistic style his stuff is just fucking bland to me.

Quote from: Simlasa;906451Really? That's news to me...  
You sound like one of those people at art shows who proudly announce, "Heck, my kid can draw better than that!"

Not married, no kids, and no, I'm not that good.  I might have had a chance to be once, but not anymore.

Quote from: Simlasa;906451I'm not a huge fan of this guy's stuff but I find it a whole lot more interesting than Elmore, despite Elmore striving for a more realistic style his stuff is just fucking bland to me.

I will agree with that.  But maybe I'm biased, I'm more of a Frazetta fan, I liked the way he posed his characters dynamically.  Elmore barely poses at all.  Even Boris Vallejo does more dynamic work than Elmore does.  And Vallejo is often blasted for his static posing, although his work is beautiful,

As for my comment on 'Objectively bad' I meant in terms of mechanics, like perspective, there are several differing types, but Mr. Reynolds doesn't seem to know what they are, limb lengths for human (not humanoid, you can get away with a LOT with Fantasy creatures like Elves and Halflings) and how they're attached to the body, what I've been told are some of the basics (others include lighting and shading.)

But again, I will give him credit where it's due, he has a great sense of dynamic motion and a keen eye for colour.  His images are impactful and memorable.

Quote from: Omega;9064452: Mostly covers but from what I am seeing on a quick search also a fair amount of interior pieces. How much or where? Who knows. I assume hes Pazios in-house artist?

He was, he's done work outside, like D&D 4e's atrocious Darksun cover.  But he mostly works for Paizo, or so it seems.

His art isn't something I'm hanging in the living room.  I like his interesting take on things.  TBH, I don't find 'traditional fantasy art' to be interesting.

Quote from: Crüesader;906514His art isn't something I'm hanging in the living room.  I like his interesting take on things.  TBH, I don't find 'traditional fantasy art' to be interesting.

For me it depends on the mood im in i like it some times but not at other times i want something that looks like the cover of a dragon lance book.

Quote from: Ronin;906432OK, seriously you play RPG's, you post on an RPG forum. You've never seen any Pathfinder RPG product cover ever? Really? OK....

I believe it. I've never seen a Pathfinder book either. Never even heard of it until a few years ago. But I don't give a shit about D&D and its assorted knockoffs.

Quote from: Nexus;906438There's people in this hobby that are only vaguely aware the games aside from whatever version of D and D they're playing exist :)

Right, like Christopher Brady. He's just cashing the welfare checks and buying D&D books.

Quote from: Ronin;906437Just seems improbable given this hobby

It's difficult for me to believe that anyone who has walked into a game store in the last 5 years has never seen a Pathfinder RPG book cover.  It's easy for me to believe that the person simply glanced over it without taking any notice of it because of lack of interest.  The game store I go to regularly has dozens of products on the shelf and it's a small store in a small town.  I would only recognize a minority of them if you showed them to me.  I have seen them but they didn't interest me so I didn't pay any attention.

Quote from: yosemitemike;906628It's difficult for me to believe that anyone who has walked into a game store in the last 5 years has never seen a Pathfinder RPG book cover.

They were never on the shelves of any of the game stores I ever visited here. I really could not find it on shelves. Really weird in retrospect. But then I never saw BESM on shelves either. But did cone across Dominion and Votoms.

On that same note. I've never actually seen a Traveller book on shelves anywhere except once at a WOTC game store and never had a chance to look at it. Come to think of it. I never saw Traveller at GenCon either? (But then its easy to miss stuff there. But not once ever?)

I guess sometimes you just keep drawing a blank or a games presence is patchwork?

Quote from: Omega;906641They were never on the shelves of any of the game stores I ever visited here. I really could not find it on shelves. Really weird in retrospect. But then I never saw BESM on shelves either. But did cone across Dominion and Votoms.

I guess sometimes you just keep drawing a blank or a games presence is patchwork?

It's a bit strange given that Pathfinder is one of the best selling RPGs and one of only two with a robust organized play structure.  Where is here though?

I do know what Pathfinder is, although I'm not sure I've ever seen the cover. I am pretty sure I haven't been inside a game store in the time since Pathfinder was released. No matter how popular a game is, it's entirely feasible to never see that game if you're not interested in it.

In my early years, before the internet, there were no game stores anywhere near me, and my games were bought via mail-order catalogue. These days, the vast majority of my purchases are via the internet. I have never had any interest in game-store culture, and I rarely see physical products that I don't own.

If you don't go to game store, they you obviously won't see what is in game stores.  That didn't seem to be the case with the person I was talking to though.

Quote from: yosemitemike;906697If you don't go to game store, they you obviously won't see what is in game stores.  That didn't seem to be the case with the person I was talking to though.

True -- but the original comment by Ronin that started this discussion indicated that they were incredulous that it's possible to play RPGs and post on RPG forums and not have seen a Pathfinder cover.

I don't see why it matters whether someone has seen a pathfinder cover, failed to notice them or whatever. Stuff goes over my head all the time in gaming, despite being prevalent, often because it is just white noise until I have a good reason for checking it out.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;906698True -- but the original comment by Ronin that started this discussion indicated that they were incredulous that it's possible to play RPGs and post on RPG forums and not have seen a Pathfinder cover.

That was not my position.

Quote from: yosemitemike;906705That was not my position.

Noted. :)

Quote from: JesterRaiin;906391Jesus Christ. Chris, this isn't your week. Seriously.

Let's talk about buying a used copy of a crowdfunded book about monks, with cover art by Wayne Reynolds, and watch somebody shit their straitjacket.

Quote from: yosemitemike;906690It's a bit strange given that Pathfinder is one of the best selling RPGs and one of only two with a robust organized play structure.  Where is here though?

Could be the owner didn't like Pathfinder? Some of the game store owners around here have made some less than rational business choices based on personal preferences and, well, nerd rage.

Quote from: Nexus;906738Could be the owner didn't like Pathfinder? Some of the game store owners around here have made some less than rational business choices based on personal preferences and, well, nerd rage.

That's silly but also entirely possible.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;906717Let's talk about buying a used copy of a crowdfunded book about monks, with cover art by Wayne Reynolds, and watch somebody shit their straitjacket.

I want to be in such a thread. Badly. :D

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/young-man-laughing-hysterically-7185636.jpg)

Quote from: Ronin;906432OK, seriously you play RPG's, you post on an RPG forum. You've never seen any Pathfinder RPG product cover ever? Really? OK....

Can you really judge an artist by his covers;)?

Quote from: Simlasa;906451despite Elmore striving for a more realistic style his stuff is just fucking bland to me.

I concur.  Beautiful artwork, that feels incredibly static and rigid.  Even some of his iconic stuff looks less like he's caught a moment and more like everyone's standing there waiting for the flashbulb to go off.

Quote from: Nexus;906738Could be the owner didn't like Pathfinder? Some of the game store owners around here have made some less than rational business choices based on personal preferences and, well, nerd rage.

One of the local FLGSes in my home town refused to stock Magic The Gathering cards because he believed it was going to destroy the hobby.  He'd special order them for regular customers.

Quote from: daniel_ream;906793I concur.  Beautiful artwork, that feels incredibly static and rigid.  Even some of his iconic stuff looks less like he's caught a moment and more like everyone's standing there waiting for the flashbulb to go off.



One of the local FLGSes in my home town refused to stock Magic The Gathering cards because he believed it was going to destroy the hobby.  He'd special order them for regular customers.

Reminds me of a game store i heard of that would through you out if you ask about
yugioh cards.

Quote from: Nexus;906738Could be the owner didn't like Pathfinder? Some of the game store owners around here have made some less than rational business choices based on personal preferences and, well, nerd rage.

I used to go to a store for Warhammer 40k stuff, and the store owner refused to carry a lot of things.  He also had a habit of hiding certain boxed sets and units because his play-buddies were always rigged to win his tournaments.  The guy was also very anti-WoD and refused to allow those games in his stores.  Of course, considering how many locals that played them were unhinged weirdos that LARP'd and pretending to drink blood from their wrists in front of children at the park... it was a pretty decent place to pick things up.  Small prices to pay, I guess?

Quote from: kosmos1214;906992Reminds me of a game store i heard of that would through you out if you ask about
yugioh cards.

Quote from: Crüesader;906997I used to go to a store for Warhammer 40k stuff, and the store owner refused to carry a lot of things.  He also had a habit of hiding certain boxed sets and units because his play-buddies were always rigged to win his tournaments.  The guy was also very anti-WoD and refused to allow those games in his stores.  Of course, considering how many locals that played them were unhinged weirdos that LARP'd and pretending to drink blood from their wrists in front of children at the park... it was a pretty decent place to pick things up.  Small prices to pay, I guess?

An owner around here refused to stock GURPS material. Later he just up and decided he didn't want to run the store anymore and left town one day without much warning. The store just closed one night and never reopened. Gamers don't always make the best businessmen.

Quote from: Nexus;907003An owner around here refused to stock GURPS material. Later he just up and decided he didn't want to run the store anymore and left town one day without much warning. The store just closed one night and never reopened. Gamers don't always make the best businessmen.

Yeah.  I've seen a handful of stores go into the toilet in no time at all.  Most of the time it's the owner.  

One in particular was a guy that had his kid there all the time.  His kid was a hateful little squeaker fatshit, and he would be rude to adults and his fat-ass dad (the owner) would boot anyone from the store after his little porker would start being rude to them.  It wasn't just a few misunderstandings through the years. It was routine and well-known that the kid would go as far as shaking game tables until models or scenery fell over, even when asked not to.  He'd play 'pranks' and hide dice, or write on character sheets, even fart in the store.  

I wish I was joking.  Actually, the only thing I wish more than  this being a joke- I wish I knew the kid had some kind of autism or something, but nope.  He was just a shit-awful kid that needed to be disciplined.  Firmly.  Only reason I know he wasn't screwed up is because I had friends with kids, and they said he was a little tyrant at the school as well and had to be pulled out and homeschooled.

Eventually, no one went to the store any more.  He was at a kiosk in the mall for a while, selling merch cheap as hell, but that was the last I saw of him.

Wow, we could probably dedicate an entire thread to FLGS horror stories.

Quote from: daniel_ream;906793One of the local FLGSes in my home town refused to stock Magic The Gathering cards because he believed it was going to destroy the hobby.  He'd special order them for regular customers.

That takes balls. (Not necessarily brains) It seems to me that Magic is the primary product to keep a brick and mortar store afloat.
I played some Magic in the 90's, liked it well enough, and then moved on. Card games just don't tickle my fancy that much.

Quote from: Crüesader;907005Yeah.  I've seen a handful of stores go into the toilet in no time at all.  Most of the time it's the owner.  

One in particular was a guy that had his kid there all the time.  His kid was a hateful little squeaker fatshit, and he would be rude to adults and his fat-ass dad (the owner) would boot anyone from the store after his little porker would start being rude to them.  It wasn't just a few misunderstandings through the years. It was routine and well-known that the kid would go as far as shaking game tables until models or scenery fell over, even when asked not to.  He'd play 'pranks' and hide dice, or write on character sheets, even fart in the store.  

I wish I was joking.  Actually, the only thing I wish more than  this being a joke- I wish I knew the kid had some kind of autism or something, but nope.  He was just a shit-awful kid that needed to be disciplined.  Firmly.  Only reason I know he wasn't screwed up is because I had friends with kids, and they said he was a little tyrant at the school as well and had to be pulled out and homeschooled.

Eventually, no one went to the store any more.  He was at a kiosk in the mall for a while, selling merch cheap as hell, but that was the last I saw of him.

Wow, we could probably dedicate an entire thread to FLGS horror stories.

The one in my  home town went belly up when the one partner didn't pay the rent for 6 months.
It was a partner ship between 6 guys and they had the bills split between them t keep them fairly even.
And he didnt pay it 6 months and didnt tell any one then the owner of the building (who also didnt contact them)came in one day and told them they had to give out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So yah it was a shity mess.

Another factor of why you might not see X on the shelves is because the store has deals with certain publishers and may be required not to carry competitors games. WOTC and Games Workshop have done that in the past. Would not surprise me if others have too. Or the store might just be loyal. etc.

In any case. Yeah. Wasnt on shelves locally till fairly recent. Why? No clue.

Then again one game store here didnt carry anything D&D. Lots of other stuff. But never once saw 3e on the shelves. Carried alot of other stuff though. Lots of White Wolf and GoO.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;907600That takes balls. (Not necessarily brains)

Said game store owner also once opined to me that he didn't like D&D and wouldn't have stocked it if not for the fact that it sold too well not to.

Like far too many game store owners, he started the game store shortly after graduation because as a yuge gamer he thought it would be the coolest thing ever to own his own game store.  Then he discovered it was work.

While out shopping I realized one possible reason for the lack of Pathfinder material for so long, or even much 3-4e stuff. This was one of the areas where at least one WOTC store was set up and WOTC was aping Games Workshops store business model of running out of business any local FLGS they could. Odds are they built up some negative feedback for that which might explain why D&D and PF was so anemic after WOTCs shops closed.

Back on topic.

Pathfinders been branching out into other venues. Minis, an adventure card game, the ill-fated MMO, etc.

Quote from: Omega;907849Minis, an adventure card game, the ill-fated MMO, etc.

I question how viable the adventure card game will be over the long-term. Shannon Appelcline (yes, the man is a Swine, but he knows his shit) had this to say (https://www.rpg.net/columns/advanced-designers-and-dragons/advanced-designers-and-dragons8.phtml) about it:

QuoteThe fourth adventure path for the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game (2013) was delayed, apparently because players were falling behind. Last year I applauded Paizo for finding a new niche just as D&D returned; now it's obvious that the new niche has different advantages and disadvantages. Though players are willing to buy Pathfinder magazine (2007-Present) even if they don't play it, the same's apparently not true for the adventure card games.

He's also wrong in that the Pathfinder Adventure Path monthly books aren't a magazine; that's a technical distinction, but it's one that Paizo has openly said that they've deliberately availed themselves of, after what they experienced when publishing actual magazines (e.g. Dragon, Dungeon, etc.).

Quote from: Ratman_tf;907600That takes balls. (Not necessarily brains) It seems to me that Magic is the primary product to keep a brick and mortar store afloat.
I played some Magic in the 90's, liked it well enough, and then moved on. Card games just don't tickle my fancy that much.

It depends on the store and the local (and I hate to use this word) meta. Talking with a friend who used to own a game store and another who worked there: Here in OKC, tournaments are big, but you make so little on selling packs that it's almost not worth it. You also don't get a lot of cross-purchasing from the Magic players here. You CAN make money selling singles to the kiddies who want to make the bestest Modern or Eternal format deck to house their friends with. This may differ for other locales and it may be a cash cow, but not 'round here.

Quote from: Alzrius;907857I question how viable the adventure card game will be over the long-term. Shannon Appelcline (yes, the man is a Swine, but he knows his shit) had this to say (https://www.rpg.net/columns/advanced-designers-and-dragons/advanced-designers-and-dragons8.phtml) about it:

Its more that theres a glut of these adventure card games all around the same time and Pathfinder CG was competing with the various FFG LCGs and any number of other adventure card games out there or coming out not long after.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;906717Let's talk about buying a used copy of a crowdfunded book about monks, with cover art by Wayne Reynolds, and watch somebody shit their straitjacket.

Fuck I just spit my rootbeer out over my work keyboard reading that!





(Proud owner of this (https://www.amazon.com/Visions-WAR-Art-Wayne-Reynolds/dp/1601254253))

Quote from: camazotz;908804(Proud owner of this)

Side note: I hope to learn one day that Wayne Reynolds is the exact copy of Bob "Calmness Incarnate" Ross.

"So here we're gonna add some blood... ohohohoho, so much blood... well, no mistake, just a happy accident" :D

(http://files.greatermedia.com/uploads/sites/28/2016/06/5750a5df130000d6053836ff.png)

Does he have the same hair as well as personality (because that would be awesome)?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;908899Does he have the same hair as well as personality (because that would be awesome)?

If the work resembles its author, Reynolds hairstyle would be a mix of this:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/86/4a/8e/864a8e90d46d712301f5e78d361cf24a.jpg)

...this...

(http://image.slidesharecdn.com/onlinebegeleidezelfhulp-groep2-verkort-140519061111-phpapp02/95/ehealth-voor-de-pohggz-versie-2-19-638.jpg?cb=1400480013)

...and this...

(http://www.noraphotos.com/img/s1/v20/p1052339048-3.jpg)

;)


Oh, and this is gonna be my new favorite insult thrown at bald people. "You have hair the color of your personality". Simple, clean, efficient. :D

Quote from: JesterRaiin;908905"You have hair the color of your personality". Simple, clean, efficient.

Also transparent. What you see is what you get.

Quote from: Bren;908916Also transparent. What you see is what you get.

"Your agenda is as transparent as your hair". Clever.

I forget the name, but one of Paizo's writers unironically calls herself a social justice warrior. Unsurprisingly, she has chauvinistic, racist and generally repugnant views that she shoehorns into everything she writes to get brownie points with minorities (they call her out on it and she ridicules them).

For example, she redefines the alignment scale: gender roles are the greatest evil, but slavery, infanticide, genocism, racism, etc are good or at worst neutral. Law corresponds to masculinity (so Hell is a grimdark no woman's land where the highest position a woman can hold is literally queen of whores), chaos corresponds to feminity (so Abyss is ruled by mother goddesses made of boobs and MRAs become the lowest ranking demons even below those who actually abused women).

Paizo's world building perpetuates deeply harmful racial stereotypes like noble savages, darkest africa, and wandering thieving romani. These stereotypes are dangerous because they are used to justify genocide to this very day.

This is why, as a supporter of human rights, I cannot in good conscience endorse Paizo.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;910360gender roles are the greatest evil, but slavery, infanticide, genocism, racism, etc are good or at worst neutral. Law corresponds to masculinity (so Hell is a grimdark no woman's land where the highest position a woman can hold is literally queen of whores), chaos corresponds to feminity (so Abyss is ruled by mother goddesses made of boobs and MRAs become the lowest ranking demons even below those who actually abused women).

Are you kidding, exaggerating, or is this true?  If it's real I'd like to see an example just to make my head explode.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;910360I forget the name, but one of Paizo's writers unironically calls herself a social justice warrior. Unsurprisingly, she has chauvinistic, racist and generally repugnant views that she shoehorns into everything she writes to get brownie points with minorities (they call her out on it and she ridicules them).

For example, she redefines the alignment scale: gender roles are the greatest evil, but slavery, infanticide, genocism, racism, etc are good or at worst neutral. Law corresponds to masculinity (so Hell is a grimdark no woman's land where the highest position a woman can hold is literally queen of whores), chaos corresponds to feminity (so Abyss is ruled by mother goddesses made of boobs and MRAs become the lowest ranking demons even below those who actually abused women).

Paizo's world building perpetuates deeply harmful racial stereotypes like noble savages, darkest africa, and wandering thieving romani. These stereotypes are dangerous because they are used to justify genocide to this very day.

This is why, as a supporter of human rights, I cannot in good conscience endorse Paizo.

WTF?

Are you being a somewhat hyperbolic here or is this literally what the material says?

Quote from: Nexus;910423WTF?

Are you being a somewhat hyperbolic here or is this literally what the material says?

I don't believe that there's any actual published Paizo content that says this; rather, BoxCrayonTales is saying that there's someone who writes material for Paizo who holds these views.

(EDIT: To be clear, there is published content that could be interpreted this way - e.g. Asmodeus, ruler of Hell, is an open misogynist, with the highest female devils being collectively called the "whore queens (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Whore_queen)." Likewise, the strongest demon in the Abyss is a perpetually-pregnant (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/14/1f/9c/141f9c256682fa47aedf3e1b30c17c8c.jpg) female deity (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Lamashtu) whose portfolio includes birthing monsters, and there are weakling "misogyny demons (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Andrazku)" - but the game materials rarely mention these, let alone go out of their way to overtly push an agenda.)

As someone who frequents the Paizo forums, I can think of at least one person on their staff who fits this description (though I haven't seen the above sentiment described, she has written other posts expressing similar sentiment), as well as one popular freelancer whose work Paizo seems partial to.

Quote from: Alzrius;910427I don't believe that there's any actual published Paizo content that says this; rather, BoxCrayonTales is saying that there's someone who writes material for Paizo who holds these views.

(EDIT: To be clear, there is published content that could be interpreted this way - e.g. Asmodeus, ruler of Hell, is an open misogynist, with the highest female devils being collectively called the "whore queens (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Whore_queen)." Likewise, the strongest demon in the Abyss is a perpetually-pregnant (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/14/1f/9c/141f9c256682fa47aedf3e1b30c17c8c.jpg) female deity (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Lamashtu) whose portfolio includes birthing monsters, and there are weakling "misogyny demons (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Andrazku)" - but the game materials rarely mention these, let alone go out of their way to overtly push an agenda.)

As someone who frequents the Paizo forums, I can think of at least one person on their staff who fits this description (though I haven't seen the above sentiment described, she has written other posts expressing similar sentiment), as well as one popular freelancer whose work Paizo seems partial to.

They also used the cliche "should we kill the goblin babies" as an example of the different ways good alignment responds to moral dilemma. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules#TOC-Ethics-For-Adventurers

The slavery being moral comes from one of the Golarion setting books, where the white hat nations endorse it. I'm sure I remember it was mentioned by the devs on the forums (there was some long argument about it), but gender roles and being against gay marriage are evil (so, and I'm sure someone brought this up at some point, deities of fertility and family values are logically evil). Golarion has a modern day first world fertility/replacement rate (2.1) despite medieval living conditions and wandering hordes of mythological and tolkienesque monsters, but most of the time women are single, have jobs and equal to men in every way. There was argument about how this wasn't realistic and how it would make more sense for magical healing to improve quality of life without creating a pseudo-feminist utopia but the threads were locked because the devs hated logical rebuttals or something.

Basically the Paizo devs are a bunch of straight white males and a few straight white women who want to score brownie points with minorities because it's become trendy the past decade despite themselves having grown up sheltered and ignorant of reality.

Thankfully they aren't nearly as bad about this as Onyx Path (which hires individuals who genuinely seem deeply disturbed), but it's still harmful to the cause.

Most hate groups dislike logical rebuttals filled with facts, or well reasoned arguments.  And if they have the power, they will shut the conversation/discussion down.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;910564most of the time women are single, have jobs a

That's only true if you assume the major female NPCs in adventure paths and scenarios are representative and that's unlikely.  They tend to be very atypical people.  It's true of the male NPCs as well.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;910564They also used the cliche "should we kill the goblin babies" as an example of the different ways good alignment responds to moral dilemma. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules#TOC-Ethics-For-Adventurers

Leaving aside that the question is "what do we do about the goblin babies?", I'm not sure why this is worth mentioning. As you note, that's a cliche regarding the moral dilemmas that can be - but don't have to be - brought up with regards to adventuring. The section you linked to gives the issue cursory treatment, and doesn't seem very slanted; it notes that there are a lot of possible responses, and doesn't seem to go out of its way to endorse any of them.

QuoteThe slavery being moral comes from one of the Golarion setting books, where the white hat nations endorse it.

I don't agree with this. I'm not an expert on Golarion, but as I recall the nation with the largest presence where slavery is concerned is Cheliax, the nation of devil-worshippers. They're typically opposed by Andoran, a more typical "white hat" country which is currently trying to export its abolitionist ideals.

Katapesh has slavery, because it's a nation of anarcho-libertarianism, where the pursuit of money (and self-indulgence) are held as the highest virtues. It's primary deity is the LN deity of commerce, and is a "white hat" nation only in that it's an economic powerhouse in the region.

Qadira and Osirion - as fantasy analogues of pre-Islamic Arabia and ancient Egypt, respectively - have slavery, but if I recall correctly this is largely championed by the heretical cults of the sun goddess, Sarenrae.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what other nations "endorse" slavery (maybe Thuvia?).

QuoteI'm sure I remember it was mentioned by the devs on the forums (there was some long argument about it), but gender roles and being against gay marriage are evil (so, and I'm sure someone brought this up at some point, deities of fertility and family values are logically evil).

I remember this too, and to be more specific it was them saying that Erastil - the LG deity of agriculture, farming, and family values - couldn't be good-aligned and also lionize "traditional (e.g. heterosexual) gender roles" as part of his religious doctrine. To be fair, it was mentioned that this was disqualifying from being good-aligned (and so could be neutral), rather than having to be evil-aligned.

I don't recall anyone saying that this therefore must mean that "fertility" or "family values" are evil (quite the opposite; Erastil is still a LG deity of family values; it's just that now they've retconned his doctrine to approving of all families, regardless of their makeup). I don't think that this follows as a "logical" extension; there's enough to react to without reading into any deeper offense.

QuoteGolarion has a modern day first world fertility/replacement rate (2.1) despite medieval living conditions and wandering hordes of mythological and tolkienesque monsters, but most of the time women are single, have jobs and equal to men in every way. There was argument about how this wasn't realistic and how it would make more sense for magical healing to improve quality of life without creating a pseudo-feminist utopia but the threads were locked because the devs hated logical rebuttals or something.

The thread I saw on this topic had a Paizo employee (possibly more than one) claiming that Golarion didn't have any bias towards "traditional" (e.g. patriarchal, heteronormative) gender roles - outside of the influence of evil characters and deities (e.g. Asmodeus's misogyny) - because Golarion's societies had never developed those gender roles in the first place, due to magic.

Several posters found this explanation sophomoric - I did too - for several reasons. Mostly because this brought up questions of how prevalent magic really is (and was historically, in the campaign world), how much it could really help with regards to issues of sexual dimorphism that would come up in a non-adventurer's life, and how the presumption of those dimorphic qualities interacted with the game rules being blind to such issues. Unfortunately, the employee(s) in question had no particular desire to debate the verisimilitude (and, to be fair, neither did quite a few other posters who agreed with those ideas), and the debate was stifled before it could begin.

QuoteBasically the Paizo devs are a bunch of straight white males and a few straight white women who want to score brownie points with minorities because it's become trendy the past decade despite themselves having grown up sheltered and ignorant of reality.

Leaving aside that Paizo does have a few transsexual employees (and I won't speculate with regards to anyone's sexual preferences), I think that the vast majority of the blame for Paizo's current stance can be put on the shoulders of a small number of people, almost all of whom are comparatively low-ranked in the company. The vast majority of the higher-ups (all but one, to my knowledge) simply don't talk about these issues when they come up.

QuoteThankfully they aren't nearly as bad about this as Onyx Path (which hires individuals who genuinely seem deeply disturbed), but it's still harmful to the cause.

I'm not sure what "the cause" is; I'm just calling it like I see it.

Aside from reading a little too eager to be "inclusive"... So far of the little I've seen of Pathfinder adventures they've been overall ok. Course could be I've just lucked out so far and missed the worse of it, or just didnt notice.

Quote from: Omega;910740Aside from reading a little too eager to be "inclusive"... So far of the little I've seen of Pathfinder adventures they've been overall ok. Course could be I've just lucked out so far and missed the worse of it, or just didnt notice.

I think that your take on Paizo's current materials is correct. As I see it, they have increased the instances where something seems to overtly push an agenda of "our game needs to advance social reforms," but only from "virtually nonexistent" to "pretty rare." In fact, there's a good example of this:

The current Pathfinder Adventure Path is issue #108, "Hell Comes to Westcrown," released about a week ago. One of the new monsters in the back is the "ninkonda" angel, which is themed around the redemption of evil mortals. The creature's appearance is that of a feathery-winged suit of armor, with a mirror set on its chest and nails driven through its hands, arms, and shoulders. There's no mention made of what they look like under their armor (or if there's anything under their armor at all), and their presentation is purely with regards to the how's and why's of redeeming evil mortals, along with noting how beings in the angelic hierarchy might progress into ninkondas.

And yet, for some reason, there's a small sidebar that says the following:

QuoteBEYOND GENDER

Outsiders do not reproduce sexually, and have existences that transcend the understanding of mortals. Some types of outsiders, especially angels, are genderless in their natural states. While some angels may choose to adopt a gender, whether it is one reflected in the real world or otherwise, most do not. A genderless creature has no gender entry on the race and class line of their stat block, and is referred to with the singular "they" in running text and ability descriptions.

...now, I can see that being somewhat useful information on the nature of angels, but I can't help but wonder if this doesn't clash - at least in its implication - with other materials in Pathfinder, such as the ubiquity of "half-celestial" and "half-fiendish" creatures, let alone aasimars and tieflings (e.g. beings with a trace of celestial or fiendish blood in them). Given that, it's easy to see this as trying to be a statement about presumed genders as much as it is trying to add anything to the game world.

Though, on a related note, Paizo has long pushed the idea that having a particular monstrous ancestry doesn't require that one of your ancestors fornicated with that creature. Half-dragons, for example, have been called out in that regard from the beginning (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/halfDragon.html#half-dragon) to the very newest books (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5liyk?A-Legacy-Is-So-Much-More-Than-Blood).

Yeah its the "Hey! look! Over here! We're being inclusive! Hey! Over here!" sort of PR gag that gets annoying.