Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905468You missed the point, just as I did. Piracy is bad, and is stealing food from the mouth of the publisher, just like buying second hand. :rolleyes:

You all jest, but this is exactly what's driven a lot of major video game publishers into bankruptcy in the last six years and the impetus behind the XBox One's original transport license scheme for playing used games or loaning a game to a friend.

Quote from: daniel_ream;905514You all jest, but this is exactly what's driven a lot of major video game publishers into bankruptcy in the last six years and the impetus behind the XBox One's original transport license scheme for playing used games or loaning a game to a friend.

I'm going to be the douchebag and ask for a citation on which companies.

Anyway, this is a bit of an odd case, as Paizo themselves put that stuff up on the web. I'm willing to bet that they're willing to let people play stuff for free, in hopes that there is some portion that buy stuff eventually.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;905516I'm going to be the douchebag and ask for a citation on which companies.

I'm going to have ask for the same.  I know that in the video game side, it's why publishers revile Gamestop.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;905516Anyway, this is a bit of an odd case, as Paizo themselves put that stuff up on the web. I'm willing to bet that they're willing to let people play stuff for free, in hopes that there is some portion that buy stuff eventually.

Well, they're banking on the fact that a lot of people prefer a copy they own than having to surf a website.  Which is smart, because it makes them money anyway, and they look sympathetic to their fans (which whether or not they are doesn't matter.  The appearance does.)

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905457Because you want a bound, hard copy, not a pdf or electronic tools? That seems pretty self-evident.

beat me to it

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905466Trying to make the argument that it's unethical to buy second hand unless an item is out of print (I see now that your comment about piracy was passive-aggressive crap actually throwing moral judgement at someone for buying a second-hand item and accusing them of stealing from the publisher) is rather sad and ridiculous.

and again beat me to it

Quote from: Crüesader;905491I LOL'd.

But really, I'd rather save a book from the trashpile.  The publisher will be fine.  Call me 'entitled', but I try to be careful with my money.  Too many life-changing emergencies to throw money at new shinies for shelf price if I can avoid it.

I'm the guy that used to carry in a bunch of old games to get store credit to buy a pre-owned game.

yah realy thats life but it can still suck i sure didnt plan on taking care of the house hold for 3 months when my dad had his stroke.
but i did good example of why stuffing unneeded money in a shoe box is a good thing  

Quote from: daniel_ream;905514You all jest, but this is exactly what's driven a lot of major video game publishers into bankruptcy in the last six years and the impetus behind the XBox One's original transport license scheme for playing used games or loaning a game to a friend.

im normally the last person to say this but citation needed big time

I'm not sure how anyone who plays video games could have missed THQ and Atari going under.  That and the used game "problem" being covered ad nauseam when the Xbox One launched.  Ever bought a THQ game (DiRT series, I'm looking at you) used and discovered that a third of the game was "DLC" already on the disc?  Those are all attempts to regain revenue from the used market because the AAA game market has crashed.

I enjoy being able to throw a bit of money at small businesses creating a product that I enjoy. I pre-ordered Xenonauts early in production, then backed them at Kickstarter at a fairly high level as well because I like the product and wanted the company to succeed. I buy merch from bands at their gigs if the band impresses me with their attitude, even if I'm unlikely to listen to them much in future. The only roleplaying books I can think of that I've bought second hand were for AD&D 1E, which was out of print at the time. I generally buy RPing material direct from the publisher when I can.

But the idea that I, or anyone, has an obligation to give money to a company because they create something I like (or might potentially like) is ridiculous. If an RPG company is losing a significant amount of money to second-hand sales (and those sales aren't creating enough customers that end up buying anything outside the second-hand market) they need to have a long, hard think about their business plan, and also consider why so many people who have bought their game have decided to sell it off cheap. You could just as easily argue that players are obligated to buy rulebooks if they enjoy the game, whether or not they're necessary, or that you should only buy direct from the publisher (unless you use an FLGS as a play space), or that if you watch a movie with a friend on DVD or Netflix that you should buy a copy of the DVD or a Netflix subscription yourself. This is all crap, and while producers may wish you did all those things, it's up to them to convince you that it's worth your while. Casting the discussion as a moral or ethical imperative is disingenuous at best.

Note also that, if buying second hand is unethical, so too is trying to sell stuff you no longer use, since you're accepting money that should, according to this theory, be going to the publisher.

Quote from: daniel_ream;905559I'm not sure how anyone who plays video games could have missed THQ and Atari going under.  That and the used game "problem" being covered ad nauseam when the Xbox One launched.  Ever bought a THQ game (DiRT series, I'm looking at you) used and discovered that a third of the game was "DLC" already on the disc?  Those are all attempts to regain revenue from the used market because the AAA game market has crashed.

Hog wash

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THQ#Bankruptcy_and_liquidation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCAVbPaw5SI

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905562I enjoy being able to throw a bit of money at small businesses creating a product that I enjoy. I pre-ordered Xenonauts early in production, then backed them at Kickstarter at a fairly high level as well because I like the product and wanted the company to succeed. I buy merch from bands at their gigs if the band impresses me with their attitude, even if I'm unlikely to listen to them much in future. The only roleplaying books I can think of that I've bought second hand were for AD&D 1E, which was out of print at the time. I generally buy RPing material direct from the publisher when I can.

But the idea that I, or anyone, has an obligation to give money to a company because they create something I like (or might potentially like) is ridiculous. If an RPG company is losing a significant amount of money to second-hand sales (and those sales aren't creating enough customers that end up buying anything outside the second-hand market) they need to have a long, hard think about their business plan, and also consider why so many people who have bought their game have decided to sell it off cheap. You could just as easily argue that players are obligated to buy rulebooks if they enjoy the game, whether or not they're necessary, or that you should only buy direct from the publisher (unless you use an FLGS as a play space), or that if you watch a movie with a friend on DVD or Netflix that you should buy a copy of the DVD or a Netflix subscription yourself. This is all crap, and while producers may wish you did all those things, it's up to them to convince you that it's worth your while. Casting the discussion as a moral or ethical imperative is disingenuous at best.

Note also that, if buying second hand is unethical, so too is trying to sell stuff you no longer use, since you're accepting money that should, according to this theory, be going to the publisher.

Exactly no company of any kind is guaranteed success and if your strategy is not working you need to be smart enough to reevaluate it.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905562Note also that, if buying second hand is unethical, so too is trying to sell stuff you no longer use, since you're accepting money that should, according to this theory, be going to the publisher.

This is actually a fallacious statement.  Most people are not buying old copies of a product for a pittance and reselling it multiple times.  Which is what happens with used video games.  In fact, you can have the same copy of the same game sold 4 or 5 times, for an outrageous mark up.  Whereas the person selling the book that they no longer use, even if they're selling it at a profit, isn't going to buy it back for 10% of what they asked for, and then turning around and selling it to someone else for 10x that 10%.

Please do not use this strawman to make yourself feel better about used product shops.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905569This is actually a fallacious statement.  Most people are not buying old copies of a product for a pittance and reselling it multiple times.  Which is what happens with used video games.  In fact, you can have the same copy of the same game sold 4 or 5 times, for an outrageous mark up.  Whereas the person selling the book that they no longer use, even if they're selling it at a profit, isn't going to buy it back for 10% of what they asked for, and then turning around and selling it to someone else for 10x that 10%.

Please do not use this strawman to make yourself feel better about used product shops.

i think you need to step in to a used book store

Quote from: kosmos1214;905571i think you need to step in to a used book store

Used to co-run one.

But it's off topic.

Pathfinder is a good pick up if you want to mine it for 3.x style ideas.  I still get ideas for my 5e game, but then I'm a system tinkerer.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905569This is actually a fallacious statement.  Most people are not buying old copies of a product for a pittance and reselling it multiple times.  Which is what happens with used video games.  In fact, you can have the same copy of the same game sold 4 or 5 times, for an outrageous mark up.  Whereas the person selling the book that they no longer use, even if they're selling it at a profit, isn't going to buy it back for 10% of what they asked for, and then turning around and selling it to someone else for 10x that 10%.

Please do not use this strawman to make yourself feel better about used product shops.

Ok, so in your world, it's perfectly ok to sell used game books, it's just not ok to buy them. Have fun with that.

Edit: Oh, by the way, you get bonus points for claiming I'm creating a strawman by comparing RPGs to video games, when I never once mentioned the second-hand video game market.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905574Ok, so in your world, it's perfectly ok to sell used game books, it's just not ok to buy them. Have fun with that.

Sounds like it to me.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;905516I'm going to be the douchebag and ask for a citation on which companies.

Anyway, this is a bit of an odd case, as Paizo themselves put that stuff up on the web. I'm willing to bet that they're willing to let people play stuff for free, in hopes that there is some portion that buy stuff eventually.

They're also in the business of selling APs, modules, and various accessories. The APs and modules aren't available freely from them, even if http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ and d20pfsrd.com both have monsters and rules from them available.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;905562But the idea that I, or anyone, has an obligation to give money to a company because they create something I like (or might potentially like) is ridiculous.

You're/we're being trolled, man.  The guy's an apologist for outright piracy, so he's trying to draw an equivalence.  But in the wild, no non-trolls are saying don't buy used.

Quote from: Dave R;905584You're/we're being trolled, man.

Yes, that's the conclusion I was coming to.