TheRPGSite

Gotta read the comments:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/wayoflife/06/08/new.dungeons.dragons/index.html?hpt=Sbin

Hey, at least 4e and D&D made the news in a good way.

The impotent moaning of former gamers is sweet like honey.

If you didn't throw that term around so loosely it might mean something, AM.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;386475The impotent moaning of former gamers is sweet like honey.

Well, your hatred of anyone who doesn't play 4e seems sufficient to counterbalance all of the 4e sentiment here.

I'm just baffled as to how you feel its productive, dude.  I don't mind playing  4th, I like my character but I would never GM it since I don't care for the way it models fantasy.  Do you think your peer pressure alone will get people to change their minds?

Quote from: Doom;386473Gotta read the comments:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/wayoflife/06/08/new.dungeons.dragons/index.html?hpt=Sbin

Hey, at least 4e and D&D made the news in a good way.

In all fairness, do you ever read the comments on other CNN articles?  The tone is pretty much the same regardless of topic.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;386478Well, your hatred of anyone who doesn't play 4e seems sufficient to counterbalance all of the 4e sentiment here.

I'm just baffled as to how you feel its productive, dude.  I don't mind playing  4th, I like my character but I would never GM it since I don't care for the way it models fantasy.  Do you think your peer pressure alone will get people to change their minds?

Oh I don't care about anyone who doesn't play. That doesn't bother me. Nor do I particularly care about changing anyone's minds. People like what they like. Someone wants to play? Great, have a seat. Someone wants to play something else? That's cool too.

But like, the guys who show up to piss and moan and cry? The conspiracy theorists? The industry obsessionists with their eye on every quarterly earnings report?

Utterly. Contemptible.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;386479In all fairness, do you ever read the comments on other CNN articles?  The tone is pretty much the same regardless of topic.

Very true. IMO it's the nature of the internet. Moderate people lose interest or don't bother to begin with.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;386479In all fairness, do you ever read the comments on other CNN articles? The tone is pretty much the same regardless of topic.

Virtually no online news sources have comments worth wasting time on.
 
But it is mildly interesting that rpgs briefly made the front page of CNN.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;386479In all fairness, do you ever read the comments on other CNN articles?  The tone is pretty much the same regardless of topic.

Before the internet was popular, such venting and extreme comments were the bread and butter of talk radio and/or the editor's desk at a daily newspaper.  Very little difference, other than such comments being posted in real time online these days.

Comic book letters pages too.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;386480Oh I don't care about anyone who doesn't play.

Your posts, heck, the very fact you keep posting about them, prove otherwise. ;)

Thanks for linking the article! I enjoyed that. It also gave me a better idea on what D&D Encounters is, esp. who it's for. I previously thought it was for teenagers occasionally dropping by at gaming stores, but now it strikes me that the emphasis is on older (and lapsed) gamers whose schedule only allows them to play with minimum time commitments and high flexibility as regards scheduling. I had been a bit irritated at only seeing the latter demographic in the D&D Encounters promotion clip, and too few of the former demographic, but now it all makes sense.

Wow!  What awesome press for our hobby!

Every gamer should be thrilled with D&D Encounters.   It can only help the entire hobby by bringing in fresh blood.   Yes, the majority who become gamers will just stick with WotC, but some will look around the game store and ask "what else ya got?" and maybe even do so on the web.

*Some* will find their way to your favorite game too.

Quote from: Spinachcat;386500*Some* will find their way to your favorite game too.

Nod. Agreed.

Quote from: Spinachcat;386500Wow!  What awesome press for our hobby!

Every gamer should be thrilled with D&D Encounters.   It can only help the entire hobby by bringing in fresh blood.   Yes, the majority who become gamers will just stick with WotC, but some will look around the game store and ask "what else ya got?" and maybe even do so on the web.

*Some* will find their way to your favorite game too.

I like your cynical remark.

To be honest most of the negative views about 4e actually make me want to try it if only to see how wrong they really are.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;386520To be honest most of the negative views about 4e actually make me want to try it if only to see how wrong they really are.

It's the only D&D I haven't played (or ran)...but I have read it, and I really didn't see anything in it that made me want to invest any further time into it than that, personally.

The story here is that D&D garnered media attention without the need for a pillar of the industry dying, not that there are angry people on the internet who feel the need to share their opinion.

Quote from: Pete;386522The story here is that D&D garnered media attention without the need for a pillar of the industry dying, not that there are angry people on the internet who feel the need to share their opinion.

I really doubt that DnD encounters somehow managed to draw media attention on its own; the whole of the article read more like ad copy than a human interest piece.

I started playing a 4e game last Sunday (had a really good time, btw). I found it interesting that when I pulled out my PHB to look something up, I was advised by the DM and others (who have been using 4e far longer) that it was useless now since it had been "errata'd" so much. Apparently they keep updating and changing the abilities, classes, and rules often enough that the only way to keep really current is to use their on-line resources.

Point? None, really, except I find it funny that a "core book" is now essentially useless (to this group at least). Also, I cannot fathom trying to run this game "off the cuff" - it seems to require encounters to be heavily scripted in advance, based on levels and whatnot. I could be wrong, though.

Quote from: Werekoala;386527Point? None, really, except I find it funny that a "core book" is now essentially useless.

Maybe we'll see a digital-only edition some time in the future, with a purely subscription based model, maybe with some POD on the side. Who knows.

I think they're exaggerating the uselessness of the core PHB.

Exalted still has more errata than 4e, and the corebook served me fine for that game.

QuoteMaybe we'll see a digital-only edition some time in the future, with a purely subscription based model, maybe with some POD on the side. Who knows.

I would be okay with that, especially since I play 4e as a casual endeavor or as a pick-up game.  Not having to invest in actual books would be nice.

Im only interested in the game at the moment because the essentials line is due and it'll work out abit cheaper to buy into than all the books i'd need to run it using the current line.  If i end up sticking with 4e im probably gonna subscribe to ddi instead of buying the main books though as i have far to many unused rpg books in my spare room and a huge chunk of those are previous editions of d&d.

I haven't bought anything of 4e other than the core set.  You don't need it unless you really want some of the fluff, since DDI provides the rest.

Also, you can subscribe to DDI for a single month and get all of the content and updates available, and then unsubscribe and keep all of that content, since the files are stored locally on your computer.

Quote from: Aos;386486Comic book letters pages too.

Amusingly, the first time I ever read any commentary from Darren MacLennan (RPG.net's sow of a thousand needle-tooth-bitten teats), it was in the letters column in the back of a comic book.

!i!

I only got through slightly more than half of the aprox 260 comments there before I decided it wasn't worth my time and skimmed the rest, but they were all generally positive.

What I find ironic is that all but a handful of the negative comments I read were in regards to how 4e wasn't 3.5e and not the hobby itself, because the whole point of the 'explorer' editions is to 'lure back' people who left the hobby :)

I was lured back in by 3.0. Although I never played it, it did rekindle my interest and led to me finding some other games that suited me better.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;386549I only got through slightly more than half of the aprox 260 comments there before I decided it wasn't worth my time and skimmed the rest, but they were all generally positive.

What I find ironic is that all but a handful of the negative comments I read were in regards to how 4e wasn't 3.5e and not the hobby itself, because the whole point of the 'explorer' editions is to 'lure back' people who left the hobby :)

Exactly.  I can't see where everyone is seeing the huge nerd-rage fuelled flame war in that article.  tBP can only dream of having that easy of a time with moderation.

I don't kike D&D, any edition and don't play it. I also do not go on and on about my dislike of it or feel a need to convince others to dislike it.

Maybe I'm secure enough in my opinions not to feel a compulsion to validate them by trying to browbeat others into agreeing with them...

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;386523I really doubt that DnD encounters somehow managed to draw media attention on its own; the whole of the article read more like ad copy than a human interest piece.

I skimmed but it did read like that.  CNN has sunk quite a bit in the last couple of years.  I've noticed a few articles that were opinion pieces from people who just happened to have a book coming out.  They also try to pass blog entries as news.

Quote from: Nicephorus;386566I skimmed but it did read like that.  CNN has sunk quite a bit in the last couple of years.  I've noticed a few articles that were opinion pieces from people who just happened to have a book coming out.  They also try to pass blog entries as news.

And "entertainment tonight" crap as news, too.

As much as I may hate 4e; Encounters really can't be considered anything other than a rousing success, at least locally anyhow.

And shit, we might try recruiting a few of the players to play nWoD Changeling which we will be running when Encounters ends anyhow.  We might get 1-2 folks.

Though Maw?  You still suck shit you goddamned consumer whore fanboy pigfucker.  Stop being such a fucking assgoblin about a consumer product you have no genuine economic stake in.  Thanks.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;3865764e Encounters really can't be considered anything other than a rousing success, at least locally anyhow.

Pun intended? :teehee:

I caught this article yesterday and found the comments amusing at best, pathetic at worst.

Personally, I think the whole thread is a good example why kids don't pick up RPGs nowadays. They see these old neckbeards whining and correctly decide NOT playing at least keeps that noise in their lives to a minimum.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;386520To be honest most of the negative views about 4e actually make me want to try it if only to see how wrong they really are.

It's a fun game.  I love the fantasy skirmish boardgame aspect that allows for lots of interesting and challenging tactical play.   I will be interested to see what they do with their "intro-set".

Quote from: Werekoala;386527Also, I cannot fathom trying to run this game "off the cuff" - it seems to require encounters to be heavily scripted in advance, based on levels and whatnot. I could be wrong, though.

For me, 4e adventure prep is much faster (and more enjoyable) than D20.   It is slower than OD&D and Classic Traveller prep.  

But after a year of play, I can easily prep an average encounter in 5 minutes if I need to, but I like to tinker so I usually do it in 15 minutes.

I also like to run "off the cuff" so I sat down and built out a dozen "drop anywhere" encounters than I can reskin mentally when needed.

Reskinning is your best friend in 4e.  

Quote from: Benoist;386528Maybe we'll see a digital-only edition some time in the future, with a purely subscription based model, maybe with some POD on the side. Who knows.

Maybe not 5e, but probably 6e.    I expect iPad-like comps will quickly replace laptops and e-readers.

Heck, there were several iPads at last month's Gamex convention being used by RPGers and Warhammer players.  

Quote from: Peregrin;386539Also, you can subscribe to DDI for a single month and get all of the content and updates available, and then unsubscribe and keep all of that content, since the files are stored locally on your computer.

That's a sweet deal.

Quote from: Cylonophile;386564I don't kike D&D

Neither does Helen Thomas.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;386589I caught this article yesterday and found the comments amusing at best, pathetic at worst.

Personally, I think the whole thread is a good example why kids don't pick up RPGs nowadays. They see these old neckbeards whining and correctly decide NOT playing at least keeps that noise in their lives to a minimum.

Kids??

Yeah, that's what folks on Enworld said as well. And while I agree with the sentiment on a principled basis (online discussion of RPGs surely mostly alienate newcomers) I'm struck by how removed from reality it is, factually. I mean, it assumes (1) that "kids these days" chance upon a CNN article, read it ... AND :rolleyes: will check the comments and (2) that the same kids who'll join D&D Encounters will stumble upon online RPG discussion early on in their forays into the hobby.

I mean, come on. Take any random hobby out there – roller blading, bicycling, mountain climbing, badminton, chess, or what have you. Imagine you pick up any of these as a hobby tomorrow. What makes you think that *online forums* dedicated to these will form an integral element of your enjoyment and assessment of your new hobby? Personally, I'd not even check them out. And that's even before we get into the demographic issue of whether the newcomers in question are "kids" or well beyond that (cf. my earlier post in the thread).

Seriously, once again we see people active on forums to VASTLY overestimate the impact such forums have on people not active on forums. It's ridiculous beyond belief. And thank god for that.

Quote from: Windjammer;386607Seriously, once again we see people active on forums to VASTLY overestimate the impact such forums have on people not active on forums. It's ridiculous beyond belief. And thank god for that.

Very true.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;386576As much as I may hate 4e; Encounters really can't be considered anything other than a rousing success, at least locally anyhow.

And shit, we might try recruiting a few of the players to play nWoD Changeling which we will be running when Encounters ends anyhow.  We might get 1-2 folks.

Though Maw?  You still suck shit you goddamned consumer whore fanboy pigfucker.  Stop being such a fucking assgoblin about a consumer product you have no genuine economic stake in.  Thanks.

Hey Rufus, I heard it's been a hard year for you. Hope this next year turns out better.

Quote from: Spinachcat;386594"I don't kike D&D."

Neither does Helen Thomas.

LOL Nice.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;386523I really doubt that DnD encounters somehow managed to draw media attention on its own...

Few things do. Hence press releases. PR departments. And so on.

Seanchai

Quote from: Peregrin;386529I think they're exaggerating the uselessness of the core PHB.

Indeed. I don't use the PHB as a reference for Powers, Feats, or anything character related. Those rare times when I do use it, I'm looking up what happens when you're grabbed or some other bit of minutiae.

Seanchai

Quote from: Windjammer;386607Yeah, that's what folks on Enworld said as well. And while I agree with the sentiment on a principled basis (online discussion of RPGs surely mostly alienate newcomers) I'm struck by how removed from reality it is, factually. I mean, it assumes (1) that "kids these days" chance upon a CNN article, read it ... AND :rolleyes: will check the comments and (2) that the same kids who'll join D&D Encounters will stumble upon online RPG discussion early on in their forays into the hobby...Seriously, once again we see people active on forums to VASTLY overestimate the impact such forums have on people not active on forums.

It's not just forums, however. You can find people, in real life, disagreeing about all kinds of silly game-related minutia. It's not pretty. It's not attractive.

Seanchai

Quote from: Windjammer;386607Seriously, once again we see people active on forums to VASTLY overestimate the impact such forums have on people not active on forums. It's ridiculous beyond belief. And thank god for that.

That was my vaguely implied point. The comments section isn't necessarily composed of forum-goers, it's CNN readers who happen to know about D&D and 4e. And you see there much of what you see here.

Quote from: Spinachcat;386500Every gamer should be thrilled with D&D Encounters.   It can only help the entire hobby by bringing in fresh blood.   Yes, the majority who become gamers will just stick with WotC, but some will look around the game store and ask "what else ya got?" and maybe even do so on the web.

There's nothing particularly wrong with D&D Encounters and I, personally, hope they're successful.

Unfortunately, they are another indicator that WotC is pursuing the wrong strategy in terms of growing the RPG market. You cannot compete with CRPGs by focusing on the one thing that CRPGs completely kick you ass at: Combat simulation.

CRPGs do the math for you resulting in more complex simulations and/or faster gameplay. They can be played with friends in the same room; friends around the world; complete strangers; or solo. They have fancy graphics, integrated soundtracks, and immersive sound effects. They are just flat-out better at scratching the hack 'n slash itch.

So, yeah, I hope D&D Encounters does well. But a single combat encounter that takes 1-2 hours to resolve? Yeah. You might as well hang out a banner saying, "This is not as good as World of Warcraft."

And if D&D Encounters was just one part of a larger strategy, that would be fine. But this combat-centric approach is the basket into which WotC has put all of their eggs.

If you want to compete with CRPGs, you have to focus on all of the things that PnP games can do that CRPGs can't. WotC's chosen the opposite strategy. And that's bad news for WotC. And it's bad news for the industry.

Quote from: Werekoala;386527I started playing a 4e game last Sunday (had a really good time, btw). I found it interesting that when I pulled out my PHB to look something up, I was advised by the DM and others (who have been using 4e far longer) that it was useless now since it had been "errata'd" so much.

They had completely rewritten one of the core mechanics of the game (skill challenges) within 30 days of the game being released. The sloppiness of the design on 4th Edition is pretty much undeniable.

Quote from: Peregrin;386529I think they're exaggerating the uselessness of the core PHB.

Exalted still has more errata than 4e, and the corebook served me fine for that game.

That's not actually true.

It's always kinda iffy comparing errata issued by different companies, but D&D4's core ruleboos have received nearly 3x the amount of errata that Exalted's core rulebook in terms of page count and nearly 4x as much in terms of word count.

You know, Windjammer, I would be totally wrong if people only bitched online. Except they don't. They in fact do it in person and having to explain this fact to you is kinda annoying.

Edit: Seanchai already caught this but it's good to emphasize since you quoted me and all.

Quote from: Seanchai;386672It's not just forums, however. You can find people, in real life, disagreeing about all kinds of silly game-related minutia. It's not pretty. It's not attractive.

Seanchai

Quote from: DeadUematsu;386836You know, Windjammer, I would be totally wrong if people only bitched online. Except they don't. They in fact do it in person and having to explain this fact to you is kinda annoying.

Edit: Seanchai already caught this but it's good to emphasize since you quoted me and all.

Jesus Christ. You guys must play with fucking assholes.

Quote from: Seanchai;386672It's not just forums, however. You can find people, in real life, disagreeing about all kinds of silly game-related minutia. It's not pretty. It's not attractive.

Seanchai

This brings up something else for me.

In my online experience, there seems to be an impression that there is a vastly superior number of RPG players who are completely oblivious to gaming related websites and forums than those that are.  I don't know a huge volume of players, but I can't think of one out of the 30 or so I'm acquainted with who isn't familiar with a handful of gaming blogs, rpg.net, therpgsite, enworld or connected with a group of gamers through social media outlets.  

The gamer demographic form strong opinions and actively seek out these crisis points.  Seanchai is quite right in this one,  all manner of fucktards seem to gather at the local game store to air their complaints.  The tone and quality of the remarks very closely mirror what you see online.  I have no idea how the owner of the local game shops keeps his wits.

Not that this includes myself; I post here to avoid doing work.

Judging  by the smell the guys at my gaming store bitch with pheromones.

Quote from: Benoist;386837Jesus Christ. You guys must play with fucking assholes.

Where did anyone imply they actually gamed with these people?

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;386838In my online experience, there seems to be an impression that there is a vastly superior number of RPG players who are completely oblivious to gaming related websites and forums than those that are.  I don't know a huge volume of players, but I can't think of one out of the 30 or so I'm acquainted with who isn't familiar with a handful of gaming blogs, rpg.net, therpgsite, enworld or connected with a group of gamers through social media outlets.

Most gamers I know in RL don't give a rat's ass about most if not all role playing websites, message boards and blogs.

I feel more and more blessed somehow.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;386840Where did anyone imply they actually gamed with these people?

Well, they must at least have met these guys somewhere, right? So they at least eavesdrop on people talking gaming at the local store or something? I've never met guys like this personally, including when I walked into gaming stores in Vancouver. I just don't have any of that experience.

Quote from: Benoist;386843Well, they must at least have met these guys somewhere, right? So they at least eavesdrop on people talking gaming at the local store or something? I've never met guys like this personally, including when I walked into gaming stores in Vancouver. I just don't have any of that experience.

Benoist, every indication from nearly every conversation I've ever had with you indicates that you are one of these people.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;386869Benoist, every indication from nearly every conversation I've ever had with you indicates that you are one of these people.

I'm not surprised you were itching for a fight.
I am not going to oblige.

Quote from: Benoist;386885I'm not surprised you were itching for a fight.
I am not going to oblige.

No, seriously! You are the guy that needs information about (for example) goblins busting through walls (WHEN! HOW!), or needs a very specific indicator about mechanics that you think are "disassociated" and are gravely offended by it. You are that fucking guy!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;386897No, seriously! You are the guy that needs information about (for example) goblins busting through walls (WHEN! HOW!), or needs a very specific indicator about mechanics that you think are "disassociated" and are gravely offended by it. You are that fucking guy!

Keep digging dude. Make a show of yourself. :)

Quote from: Benoist;386898Keep digging dude. Make a show of yourself. :)

I'm not saying your'e an asshole- that was not my characterization, but I don't understand how you don't see it.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;386899I'm not saying your'e an asshole- that was not my characterization, but I don't understand how you don't see it.

Bah. It'd be like me making judgment calls on how you treat your friends or behave yourself in good company based on the posts you make on these forums. I mean, I could, but in the end, I don't think that'd be very constructive.

I got to give it to you though: you could hold on the personal attacks for ONE day. Sort of.
Pretty cool. Must be a record or something. :)

Quote from: Benoist;386901I got to give it to you though: you could hold on the personal attacks for ONE day. Sort of.
Pretty cool. Must be a record or something. :)

We pumped xanax into his water supply at a rate of 1 part per 500 and were able to juuuuuuuuuust take the edge off.

Quote from: Benoist;386837Jesus Christ. You guys must play with fucking assholes.

Oh, these aren't people I play with. They're people like you - edition warriors; other self-important folks; people with nothing better to do that argue about who is more bad ass, Orcus or Lolth; people who are convinced they are arbiters of all that gaming should be - who happen to be hanging out at the FLGS, looking for people to latch on to and argue with.

Seanchai

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;386869Benoist, every indication from nearly every conversation I've ever had with you indicates that you are one of these people.

Har! I came to the same conclusion.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;386911Oh, these aren't people I play with. They're people like you - edition warriors; other self-important folks; people with nothing better to do that argue about who is more bad ass, Orcus or Lolth; people who are convinced they are arbiters of all that gaming should be - who happen to be hanging out at the FLGS, looking for people to latch on to and argue with.

Seanchai

Not that I'm characterizing benoist as this exactly, but I do get the feeling when I run across these guys that often enough, this is as close to actual gaming as many of them ever get anymore.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;386905We pumped xanax into his water supply at a rate of 1 part per 500 and were able to juuuuuuuuuust take the edge off.

That, or he took lessons at ENWorld. ;)

Quote from: Seanchai;386911.................people with nothing better to do that argue about who is more bad ass, Orcus or Lolth; people who are convinced they are arbiters of all that gaming should be - who happen to be hanging out at the FLGS, looking for people to latch on to and argue with.

For those of us that have to work at the FLGS and try our best to be neutral - those guys are really annoying to have there as background noise.

...and when they do find someone to argue with - the arguments are pretty damn boring, Plus, if they act really stupid we either got to yell at them to cool it or threaten to call Mall Security in. Thankfully that last option practically never happens.  


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;386957For those of us that have to work at the FLGS and try our best to be neutral - those guys are really annoying to have there as background noise.

...and when they do find someone to argue with - the arguments are pretty damn boring, Plus, if they act really stupid we either got to yell at them to cool it or threaten to call Mall Security in. Thankfully that last option practically never happens.  

- Ed C.

How often do you have to yell at people for them to drop whatever argument they're having? Are these the same people, regulars of the store, or just troublemakers passing by or... quid?

The entire extent of my discussions of 4e in a game store was one exchange some years ago when I was looking at some stuff, and a guy took a look at other Fantasy stuff around there. The guy asked me what I thought about 4e. I answered something to the extent of "I like D&D, so I'm not really impressed with 4e". The guy smiled, we exchanged a few opinions on various, completely unrelated stuff, and that was it. No argument. No fuss. It was all in good spirit.

Heck. I've never seen an argument in a game store. Maybe once with people playing HeroClix or something like it. But nowhere near the degree of annoyance you guys describe.

Quote from: Benoist;386959How often do you have to yell at people for them to drop whatever argument they're having? Are these the same people, regulars of the store, or just troublemakers passing by or... quid?

Maybe twice in the whole past year I've had to say either : "Cool it" or "Guys, keep your volume down." in a polite and hushed yet slightly angry tone.

My manager doesn't tolerate bad behavior at the store, so at this point word has gotten around for people to be polite.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;386961Maybe twice in the whole past year I've had to say either : "Cool it" or "Guys, keep your volume down." in a polite and hushed yet slightly angry tone.

My manager doesn't tolerate bad behavior at the store, so at this point word has gotten around for people to be polite.

- Ed C.

I would imagine many stores have the same basic ground rule. Heck, it's just social common sense.

Quote from: Benoist;386962I would imagine many stores have the same basic ground rule. Heck, it's just social common sense.

These are gamers we're talking about here. Common sense varies... greatly. :)

Quote from: Benoist;386898Keep digging dude. Make a show of yourself. :)

Come on, points for the subtlety lessons.  At least the 'you are irrelevant' vibe is kind of a hidden undercurrent.  I doubt it will last, but it's kind of like a break in the clouds, and you get a warm bit of sunshine before the rains move in again.

Quote from: Koltar;386957For those of us that have to work at the FLGS and try our best to be neutral - those guys are really annoying to have there as background noise.

- Ed C.

This is why I nearly refuse to interact with other gamers in my real life. I'm sick of hearing about "funny" gaming stories where the punchline is inevitably "well, you would have had to be there I guess" or about how their half-dragon/half-fiend Dread Necromancer stormed the gates of celestia and raped Pelor's face.

I was riding to work one day on a local tram and flipping through a D&D book, when some sweaty, unwashed neckbeard tried to start up a conversation:

Him: Hey...is that a D&D book?

Me: (clearly flipping through a D&D book) No.

Him: Uh...may I ask what it is?

Me: The Book of Mormon.

Him: Then why does it say Dungeons & Dragons on the cover?

Me: That kind of question is better answered through faith and prayer.

Him: Okay well...I think 4E sucks.

Me: What's a 4E?

Him: 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons. It isn't really D&D.

Me: Dungeons & Dragons is for perverts and devil worshipeprs. I'm reading the Book of Mormon. Would you like to hear the good word of the Heavenly Father?

At that point he changed seats : )

Shazbot,

 Hate your fellow gamers much?

Or just your fellow human beings?

By-the-way, my Aunt , Uncle and cousins are all members of the Church of Latter Day Saints - they have no problem with D&D that I've heard of or roleplaying games in general.
For that matter, I believe my Uncle was a major fan of STAR TREK and STARGATE SG-1.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;387032Shazbot,

 Hate your fellow gamers much?

Or just your fellow human beings?

By-the-way, my Aunt , Uncle and cousins are all members of the Church of Latter Day Saints - they have no problem with D&D that I've heard of or roleplaying games in general.
For that matter, I believe my Uncle was a major fan of STAR TREK and STARGATE SG-1.

- Ed C.

I'm pretty much a misanthrope...but I especially hate gamers.

Anyway, that wasn't intended as a slight against mormons...it's just the first thing that popped into my head when the guy started talking to me. If I had it to do over again I would have said the book was "Dianetics".

*Edit: That is to say, I don't hate ALL gamers. Just the ones who have nothing to talk about BUT gaming.

Quote from: Koltar;387032Shazbot,

 Hate your fellow gamers much?

Or just your fellow human beings?

By-the-way, my Aunt , Uncle and cousins are all members of the Church of Latter Day Saints - they have no problem with D&D that I've heard of or roleplaying games in general.
For that matter, I believe my Uncle was a major fan of STAR TREK and STARGATE SG-1.

- Ed C.

He's just being an idiot. *shrug*

Quote from: Koltar;387032Shazbot,

 Hate your fellow gamers much?

Or just your fellow human beings?

By-the-way, my Aunt , Uncle and cousins are all members of the Church of Latter Day Saints - they have no problem with D&D that I've heard of or roleplaying games in general.
For that matter, I believe my Uncle was a major fan of STAR TREK and STARGATE SG-1.

- Ed C.

When you're destined to be a god of your own planet, I can see Sci-Fi being more interesting. :D

Quote from: Shazbot79;387035I'm pretty much a misanthrope...but I especially hate gamers.

Anyway, that wasn't intended as a slight against mormons...it's just the first thing that popped into my head when the guy started talking to me. If I had it to do over again I would have said the book was "Dianetics".

*Edit: That is to say, I don't hate ALL gamers. Just the ones who have nothing to talk about BUT gaming.

Watch out for coaltar's attack sock now. ;)

Quote from: Benoist;387090He's just being an idiot. *shrug*

No, he's being smart. Assuming the conversation went basically as described, it's pretty damn clear Shaz didn't want to talk to the other person. But that person persists, because he wanted to share his opinion of the edition Shaz was reading. Wanting to avoid engaging with folks who want to pee in your cornflakes isn't idiotic - it's makes being a gamer bearable.

Seanchai

Quote from: Cylonophile;387121Watch out for coaltar's attack sock now. ;)

Preferable to his wank sock.

Quote from: One Horse Town;387148Preferable to his wank sock.

If someone has to quote him - rather not the response go that direction.  {{{:-)

Sort of on topic:
While I may not be a fan of D&D 4/e and had a bad experience last few sessions of that campaign that I was in - I don't let that color my comments or thoughts if someone is happily browsing our D&D 4/e section.

 Heck, I even push the weekly Wednesday night D&D Encounters if someone says they want to try D&D or gaming.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Seanchai;387141No, he's being smart. Assuming the conversation went basically as described, it's pretty damn clear Shaz didn't want to talk to the other person. But that person persists, because he wanted to share his opinion of the edition Shaz was reading. Wanting to avoid engaging with folks who want to pee in your cornflakes isn't idiotic - it's makes being a gamer bearable.

Seanchai

You don't have to be an asshole to deflect someone who wants to pee in your cornflakes. The choice is not either "engage" or "be an asshole". There's a whole lot of excluded middle here. I'm sorry, but acting like this towards someone you don't know just doesn't compute with me as "being smart", unless one is some sort of antisocial dickhead who wants creds with other pieces of societal trash.

Quote from: Benoist;387152You don't have to be an asshole to deflect someone who wants to pee in your cornflakes.

No, you don't. Nor do you have to treat them with respect. They're clearly not treating you with any.

Moreover, it's not as if he went postal on the guy or cussed him out. He simply answered in a flip, sarcasm fashion. If being sarcastic and flip to strangers makes you an antisocial dickhead, holy fuck but this place - and the Internet in general - is full of 'em!

In fact, aren't you one?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;387154In fact, aren't you one?

Seanchai

Nope. I am actually not. I'm one of those rare people around here who says "welcome" to newcomers (you can check it out for yourself), and if they don't rub me the wrong way, I won't be a pain to them. If you are being an asshole, or keep being the resident contrarian, however, I won't feel particularly obliged to respect you.

Quote from: Benoist;387158If you are being an asshole, or keep being the resident contrarian, however, I won't feel particularly obliged to respect you.

Let me get this straight. Someone is being an asshole to Shaz, but he has to be polite to them. Someone is an asshole to you, however, and you don't have to be polite to them.

And let's be honest: Your idea of someone being an asshole is disagreeing with you. They can be polite, but if they disagree, you won't hesitate to be nasty if you're in the mood for such things.

Moreover, let's not pretend if you (or many others here) were reading an older edition of D&D in a public place and some jerkwad approached you for the sole purpose of telling you what a lousy edition you were reading and that you should be reading 4e, you'd tell them off in a heartbeat and then come here to brag about the incident.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;387159Let me get this straight. Someone is being an asshole to Shaz, but he has to be polite to them.

We don't seem to have read the same dialog:

QuoteI was riding to work one day on a local tram and flipping through a D&D book, when some sweaty, unwashed neckbeard tried to start up a conversation:

Him: Hey...is that a D&D book?

Me: (clearly flipping through a D&D book) No.

Him: Uh...may I ask what it is?

Me: The Book of Mormon.

Him: Then why does it say Dungeons & Dragons on the cover?

Me: That kind of question is better answered through faith and prayer.

Him: Okay well...I think 4E sucks.

Me: What's a 4E?

Him: 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons. It isn't really D&D.

Me: Dungeons & Dragons is for perverts and devil worshipeprs. I'm reading the Book of Mormon. Would you like to hear the good word of the Heavenly Father?

See the bolded passage? That's where Shaz starts being an asshole to him. The guy didn't provoke him. He asked a question.

Quote from: Seanchai;387159And let's be honest: Your idea of someone being an asshole is disagreeing with you. They can be polite, but if they disagree, you won't hesitate to be nasty if you're in the mood for such things.

Nope. It's just that you're constantly being a contrarian asshole in every single conversation we have. I disagree fairly often with some guys around here I wouldn't consider assholes. I disagree fairly often with Peregrin for instance. Do I think he's an asshole? Nope.

So don't start thinking that your case is some sort of generality. It's not. You're just an asshole, that's all.

Quote from: Seanchai;387159Moreover, let's not pretend if you (or many others here) were reading an older edition of D&D in a public place and some jerkwad approached you for the sole purpose of telling you what a lousy edition you were reading and that you should be reading 4e, you'd tell them off in a heartbeat and then come here to brag about the incident.

Seanchai

Well unless I have some psychic powers, I can't know whatever the guy has to say before he actually says it. So I'd start by saying yes, it's an old edition book. If the guy starts talking about how he doesn't like it, I'll do some small talk in response. You can disagree with people without being a jerkwad about it. Besides, it's not like I'm stuck with the guy posting constant noise on some message board I like. It's just a tram ride, it'll be over soon enough.

Quote from: Benoist;387161We don't seem to have read the same dialog:


See the bolded passage? That's where Shaz starts being an asshole to him. The guy didn't provoke him. He asked a question.

Yep.  Any other conclusion is some serious cognitive dissonance.  There's ten thousand ways to not be a dick to someone, Shaz just chose the path of greater resistance, for some unknowable reason.

now please, shawn-tea, come and defend him, I can hardly wait.

One of the 'middle' possible options might have been to say :

 "Yes, it IS a D&D book. Its nice that you recognize it , but I'm in the mood just to read the book and not chat. Sorry about that. "

Or even a milder version of that.

 Even strangers can get the message that another person isn't in the mood to chat without rudeness or sarcasm having to be involved.


- Ed C.

Or holy fucking shit say yes it is and maybe gain a player.

Why do 4e fans suck so much?  Why don't they want to grow the hobby?  Why are they so exclusionary?  IIIIIIIITS AAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLL D&D, RIGHT?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;387169Or holy fucking shit say yes it is and maybe gain a player.

Why do 4e fans suck so much?  Why don't they want to grow the hobby?  Why are they so exclusionary?  IIIIIIIITS AAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLL D&D, RIGHT?

I agree with you here, maybe shaz shouldn't have driven the guy off as a first option, I'd think that a few minutes spent feeling him out might have gotten shaz a new player. It would have likely been my option.

But we weren't there, and maybe shaz got a bad vibe from the guy for some reason and didn't want to try hooking him up as a member of his game circle or maybe he already had a full circle.

On the surface shazs reaction seems possibly wrong, but if we give him the benefit of the doubt maybe there was some reason to drive the guy off since he was there and we weren't.

Quote from: Cylonophile;387170I agree with you here, maybe benny shouldn't have driven the guy off as a first option, I'd think that a few minutes spent feeling him out might have gotten benny a new player. It would have likely been my option.

Just to be clear here, in case you're talking about me as "benny" here: I'm not the guy who just sent the curious dude fuck off pretending my D&D book was the Book of Mormon. It's Shaz who did that. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=387028&postcount=69)

Quote from: Benoist;387171Just to be clear here, in case you're talking about me as "benny" here: I'm not the guy who just sent the curious dude fuck off pretending my D&D book was the Book of Mormon. It's Shaz who did that. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=387028&postcount=69)

Sorry, it looked like you were taking the flack for some reason. It's late, i'm a little bleary and I'm still recovering from a game con last weekend...

Quote from: Cylonophile;387172Sorry, it looked like you were taking the flack for some reason. It's late, i'm a little bleary and I'm still recovering from a game con last weekend...

It's cool. It's Seanchai who says what Shaz did was "smart". Me, I call it a dickmove.

Quote from: Benoist;387173It's cool. It's Seanchai who says what Shaz did was "smart". Me, I call it a dickmove.

Agreed.  That is why I never make eye contact, especially on public transit.  Treat it like a moving prison exercise yard, and you will do just fine.  :)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;387169Why do 4e fans suck so much?  Why don't they want to grow the hobby?  Why are they so exclusionary?  IIIIIIIITS AAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLL D&D, RIGHT?

'Cause theRPGsite and RPGnet represent the real-world, amirite?  :P

Hell, about half of the people I've gamed with during 4e playtests and whatnot were new gamers.  A lot of them continued playing D&D, whether 4e or an older edition.

I don't think any particular edition gives you the propensity to be an anti-social dick.  I think that's a problem with certain gamers regardless of game or edition.  I've met plenty of Game X devotees who I wanted to punch in the fucking face.

Quote from: Benoist;387161See the bolded passage? That's where Shaz starts being an asshole to him.

Again, being sarcastic is being an asshole? Really?

Quote from: Benoist;387161So don't start thinking that your case is some sort of generality. It's not.

No, it is. When you get frustrated, you start in with the language and personal attacks. Your sense of decorum is, apparently, situational...

Seanchai

Quote from: Cylonophile;387170I agree with you here, maybe shaz shouldn't have driven the guy off as a first option, I'd think that a few minutes spent feeling him out might have gotten shaz a new player.

Nope. The guy in question had no interest in Shaz or 4e. His interest lay in explaining Shaz's poor choices to him. That's it. It's not a hey-we're-both-gamers conversation or a what's-that-edition-of-D&D-like conversation. It's a 4e-sucks-and-you-shouldn't-be-playing-it conversation. Shaz didn't miss out on getting a new player - he missed out on hearing about why a game he likes is lame.

I know some of you might genuinely believe that Shaz missed an opportunity or did something wrong, but that's likely because you're the type of person who would approach a complete stranger in order to warn him or her about something he or she is enjoying.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;387204Again, being sarcastic is being an asshole? Really?

Seanchai

Yes, really, it is.

Quote from: Seanchai;387205The guy in question had no interest in Shaz or 4e. His interest lay in explaining Shaz's poor choices to him. That's it. It's not a hey-we're-both-gamers conversation or a what's-that-edition-of-D&D-like conversation. It's a 4e-sucks-and-you-shouldn't-be-playing-it conversation.

Seanchai

Except the guy never said that he thinks 4E sucks until much further into the conversation and after Shazbot was being a sarcastic dick to him for some time in that conversation.

I jokingly pick on socially dysfunctional fatbeards sometimes here.  But the truth of the matter is, I can find something to like in almost any fellow gamer.

When it comes right down to it, I'm going to try and be nice to any fellow gamer I meet until it because nearly impossible to do so.  

I'm a D&D nerd.  Precious few people in this world like tabletop RPGs.  We gotta stick together (not here, but in real life).

Quote from: Mistwell;387217I jokingly pick on socially dysfunctional fatbeards sometimes here.  But the truth of the matter is, I can find something to like in almost any fellow gamer.

When it comes right down to it, I'm going to try and be nice to any fellow gamer I meet until it because nearly impossible to do so.  

I'm a D&D nerd.  Precious few people in this world like tabletop RPGs.  We gotta stick together (not here, but in real life).

I agree.

Quote from: Mistwell;387217We gotta stick together (not here, but in real life).

Here, we get to tear into each other like wild dogs.  Kind of like Valhalla, we all awaken the next morning whole and uninjured.  :)

Even if you don't see eye to eye on which versions of D&D you like, just the fact that someone is a gamer at all means that you can potentially get together for other games. I have friends who play 4e D&D. I do not. We still play Junta and Settlers of Cataan and Shadowrun and Arkham Horror together.

Seriously man, what the hell? You don't have to like 4e D&D to think there are good ideas in it, you don't have to hate 4e D&D to think there are bad ideas in it. But most importantly of all, the hobby is bigger than whether or not you agree on one specific game. 4e D&D is not some sort of shibboleth where failure to provide the correct dogma with regards to it renders you mutant commie traitor scum. It's just one game of many. One with positives and negatives that are real and discussable.

-Frank