Quote from: GRIM;469763Ultimately I think the solution is for more women to make games and art. Not 'feminist games' - men aren't making 'masculinist games' after all. Just games. The best way to get your PoV expressed is to express it. Gaming is predominantly male in the same way that other male-dominated hobbies are, it's not an intentional or excluding action it's just that being mostly men it's naturally going to express a more male oriented PoV.

Malice is being ascribed where there is none.

This seems strange to me, because you suggest a "solution" for an implied problem - but then you go on to suggest that there's no excluding going on.  

As I said before, my point of view is that just because there are more men than women isn't a "problem" by itself and there need be no "solution".  I like having women in my games so I would try to promote it, but their lack isn't a problem by itself.  However, I think some sexism in RPGs does exist, and it is a problem - even if it isn't intentional or malicious.  

Sexism is a problem regardless of the presence or absence of women, in the same way that, say, a bunch of Korean guys talking smack and promoting stereotypes of black people is a problem - even if there aren't black people in their group.  The problem is that promoting those attitudes causes further problems in the rest of society.  For the most part, I think sexism and racism stem from ignorance rather than malice - but that ignorance is harmful to all sides.

Quote from: jhkim;469770This seems strange to me, because you suggest a "solution" for an implied problem - but then you go on to suggest that there's no excluding going on.  

As I said before, my point of view is that just because there are more men than women isn't a "problem" by itself and there need be no "solution".  I like having women in my games so I would try to promote it, but their lack isn't a problem by itself.  However, I think some sexism in RPGs does exist, and it is a problem - even if it isn't intentional or malicious.  

Sexism is a problem regardless of the presence or absence of women, in the same way that, say, a bunch of Korean guys talking smack and promoting stereotypes of black people is a problem - even if there aren't black people in their group.  The problem is that promoting those attitudes causes further problems in the rest of society.  For the most part, I think sexism and racism stem from ignorance rather than malice - but that ignorance is harmful to all sides.

Something can be perceived as a problem or malice even when it is not. There's no active, intentional exclusion going on, just as there isn't from - say - trainspotting, model building or any other predominantly male pursuit.

Indulging in a fantasy is not the same as promoting a reality. Enjoying sexy illustrations etc doesn't make you a mad person nor need it be exclusionary. Too many seem to think making something 'inclusive' necessarily means deliberately disenfranchising the people who already enjoy something.

Well the twitter-sphere seems to be abuzz with angry people on one side or another.

Quote from: The Traveller;469825Well the twitter-sphere seems to be abuzz with angry people on one side or another.

Which merely confirms the correctness of my choice to live Twitter-free!

Quote from: misterguignol;469826Which merely confirms the correctness of my choice to live Twitter-free!

The next Bruce Willis film: Tweet Free or Die Hard!

I find it hilarious that the conclusion of all this is that RPG.net has enacted a policy where in feminist threads men will now be forbidden from posting about how men have problems and suffer discrimination too, on account of that being "threadcrapping", but have steadfastly refused to ban women from going into men's issues threads and claiming that men are just "privileged" misogynists who have no right to complain about anything and should probably shut up on account of having penises.

Oh, and the guys who got banned for pointing out that the author of the feminist-rpg is a fraud are still banned, even though "she" is a fraud. And an accused rapist.

RPGPundit

I also note that Levi has posted some revionist stuff about Ron Edwards and the brain-damaged fiasco. Something about people calling him out on it and not being sanctioned.

Of course, there was a time on RPGnet when you couldn't actually mention the brain-damage comment when debating Forge theory at all.

Quote from: misterguignol;469764Oh man, that is going to be some deep irony if all the people on RPG.net who were rushing to publicly pat themselves for supporting a feminist game in the face of misogynist opposition were, in fact, supporting a game written by a rapist.

Holy, flaming, leprechaun poop! If that's true about the rape, then WOW! Of course, they didn't know and I stand by the original argument that making a "more inclusive" game does the opposite.

If you want to give "enlightenment kudos" to a gamer company, I have to give them to WW. Yeah, yeah, they have some crazy stuff, but I saw more female, gay and in-between gamers when WW games really hit the scene. Intentional or not, it's what happened and I can't remember the need for a WoD: The Coming Out or the like. It just felt inclusive and focused on such mature concepts to begin with that I fell gay, female, straight, etc just kind of fell into the shadows. Hell, much of V:tM was inspired by Ann Rice and her novels were very homo-erotic and carried over to V:tM. It never seemed an issue in any group I played in.

Hell, I had a very straight friend play a gay vampire and he didn't act the stereotype; he was tasteful. I never asked why and didn't care. It was a cool, dramatic (and very tragic) character and he was a very cool gamer and even cooler guy.

And please allow me to semi-derail the thread and ask a question (which nobody of the feminist concern seems to be willing/able to answer) concerning male/female equality:

If it's assumed by feminists that men and women are equal, then why is it that women have lower military physical fitness requirements than males and don't have to register for Selective Service? I have yet to hear a single women-rights activist fighting to have the standards equalized. If they have, it hasn't been very vocal.

Anyway, back to the topic...

"the author of the feminist-rpg is a fraud are still banned, even though "she" is a fraud. And a rapist."

Someone on Twitter said they're deleting any comments mentioning why people are dropping their funding for his game or mentioning the accusations.

"It was already twisting my melon that it was a feminist game written by a MtF trans person, something that would give a not-insignificant number of feminists conniption fits."

Not to mention the person making the accusations is a FtM trans person...

Quote from: RPGPundit;469834I find it hilarious that the conclusion of all this is that RPG.net has enacted a policy where in feminist threads men will now be forbidden from posting about how men have problems and suffer discrimination too, on account of that being "threadcrapping", but have steadfastly refused to ban women from going into men's issues threads and claiming that men are just "privileged" misogynists who have no right to complain about anything and should probably shut up on account of having penises.

Oh, and the guys who got banned for pointing out that the author of the feminist-rpg is a fraud are still banned, even though "she" is a fraud. And a rapist.

RPGPundit

I am getting the feeling you're not a fan of RPG.net.

Oh, I also had to say your icon is pimp. One of the best villains ever.

Quote from: RPGPundit;469834I find it hilarious that the conclusion of all this is that RPG.net has enacted a policy where in feminist threads men will now be forbidden from posting about how men have problems and suffer discrimination too, on account of that being "threadcrapping", but have steadfastly refused to ban women from going into men's issues threads and claiming that men are just "privileged" misogynists who have no right to complain about anything and should probably shut up on account of having penises.

Oh, and the guys who got banned for pointing out that the author of the feminist-rpg is a fraud are still banned, even though "she" is a fraud. And a rapist.

RPGPundit

Wow. That really should surprise me, but it doesn't. I really don't know what to say about that. It's mind-boggling.

Quote from: Talking_Muffin;469839If it's assumed by feminists that men and women are equal, then why is it that women have lower military physical fitness requirements than males and don't have to register for Selective Service? I have yet to hear a single women-rights activist fighting to have the standards equalized. If they have, it hasn't been very vocal.

This is based on a really stupid misunderstanding about what feminism is and what it's interested in doing is why. If it gives you any comfort, you're not alone - most of the posters in this thread come across as self-righteous morons mostly interested in constructing straw women so they can valiantly do battle with their own imaginations, and are clearly ignorant of all feminism outside of what they've learned from being shouted at for stalking girls and reading right-wing blog post "summaries" of Andrea Dworkin's thought.

Feminism is a position about the distribution of power in society. There are many versions of it focused on many different things because power is dissolved throughout everyday life but insofar as it has a core, it is that gender should not determine either how power is used on or against the individual.

Legal equality is one component of that, but hardly the only. Women participating in fields from which they would otherwise be excluded - whatever the pretext - is another. There are many others beyond this.

Sexism ultimately hurts men as much as women, but in different ways (we should expect no less in a society that is only slowly and finally overcoming its own history of sexism).

Quote from: Talking_Muffin;469841Oh, I also had to say your icon is pimp. One of the best villains ever.

Villains?

Quote from: RPGPundit;469847Villains?

I realize this is tangential to the thread topic, but can anyone watch that movie without the secret hope that Bill the Butcher knifes Leo D.?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;469844This is based on a really stupid misunderstanding about what feminism is and what it's interested in doing is why. If it gives you any comfort, you're not alone - most of the posters in this thread come across as self-righteous morons mostly interested in constructing straw women so they can valiantly do battle with their own imaginations, and are clearly ignorant of all feminism outside of what they've learned from being shouted at for stalking girls and reading right-wing blog post "summaries" of Andrea Dworkin's thought.

Feminism is a position about the distribution of power in society. There are many versions of it focused on many different things because power is dissolved throughout everyday life but insofar as it has a core, it is that gender should not determine either how power is used on or against the individual.

Legal equality is one component of that, but hardly the only. Women participating in fields from which they would otherwise be excluded - whatever the pretext - is another. There are many others beyond this.

Sexism ultimately hurts men as much as women, but in different ways (we should expect no less in a society that is only slowly and finally overcoming its own history of sexism).

One thing that certainly helps feminism's cause and makes it seem like a sensible and valuable philosophy is when a site like rpg.net makes it clear that feminism demands and depends on thought control, censorship and double-standards based on gender in terms of who is permitted to be heard and who isn't, in order to thrive.

That sure makes feminism seem strong, reasonable, healthy, and like the good guys.

RPGPundit