So, over on kickstartr we have someone who started a game that seems like a pretty godawful fantasy heartbreaker, but with the theme that they're making it a "feminist" RPG to make up for all the horrible sexism in the hobby.  It met its $2000 funding goal incredibly quickly, though that may in part have been due to the blowup at RPG.net on that subject, which led to thread closures and bans as per standard operating procedure over there, causing a lot of publicity for the project.

The question is, just how "sexist" is the hobby, really?  I'm not denying that there are plenty of individual gamers who are sexist or misogynists,  some of them due to never having actually been allowed near a woman in their adult lives, and that there are elements that a traditional kind of feminist could take issue at in the game books, mostly cheesecake art.  But really, how many "traditional kind of feminists" would really give a shit about playing RPGs anyways?  And modern feminists (or you could really just say "post-babyboomer women") tend not to have those same kind of hang-ups that the bra-burning 60s "2nd wave" SCUM-manifesto andrea-dworkin all-heterosexual-sex-is-rape crowd did.

So is there really something in the games themselves, now that we've outgrown the silly "women have lower str stat maximums" period, that make RPGs sexist and would need some special games for women to be able to play?

RPGPundit

Reposting from rpg.net:

My game group consists of 4 ladies and me as the gamemaster. From what I can tell after several years of running games in this setup is, that female gamers are a lot less interested in adventure fiction, which is the default assumption for a roleplaying game. You go out there, slay monsters, save the world/kingdom/princess.
However my female players gravitate towards intra character conflict, "drama fiction" and similar stuff. In our recent smallville game, they created the whole situation via the relationship map and so far we have zero conflicts that got resolved by conflict. All the conflict is solidly grounded in the relationships between each other and the backdrop of the game.

From this one could conclude that whole "adventure fiction setup" RPGs got going from the getgo, i.e. the core assumption of RPGs is not inclusive for female gamers, well not for the female gamers in my group anyway. At least that is what my couple of years of anecdotal evidence tells me. I am not saying that women are only about the talking and never got out, kick ass and take names, however in my experience they won't do that forever and will sink their teeth into other kinds of conflicts with a gusto I haven't seen in male players so far.

Also, RPG artwork is on average extremely sexist.

Quote from: RPGPundit;469230So is there really something in the games themselves, now that we've outgrown the silly "women have lower str stat maximums" period, that make RPGs sexist and would need some special games for women to be able to play?

RPGPundit

Well, there was the recent kerfuffle on EN World and CircvsMaximvs, concerning whether it was acceptable to justify mass rape on EN World. Hint: It's not, but it's even less acceptable to criticize EN World's moderation policies.

The only experience I've had with women regarding gaming is them making their boyfriend or husband stop gaming because it's too nerdy or they hate gamer guys. Seen it happen three times, so far. Wait, the last time it was because the wife decided that she needed sex maybe five minutes before we all showed up to game every single week for a month in a row (when we all just bailed out).

This is one of those topics where I always go "really?"

I'm not really seeing any more sexism in this hobby than in any other.  If anything, RPGs always tried to be more inclusive than a lot of other hobbies.  Way back in the earliest days of D&D you still had the art showing the base assumption that girls and boys would both play.

When I go to metal gigs, the audience is generally pretty white. But somehow metal forums manage to get by without threads about "How can we make more black people like AC/DC?"

So yeah. RPGs seem to appeal to dudes more than they do to chicks. Unless it gets tail-chasingly bad with RPG books turning in to barely concealed porn, I can't really seem to get too bothered about this "problem".

It doesn’t bother me if it’s created, but I don’t see a need for it. I guess someone thinks there is, though.
 
We’ve had females in our gaming groups pretty regularly. In my experience, they run the gamut of playstyles, just like guys do.
 
I’d say the only thing I’d mention is there’s definitely some cheesecake art in a lot of RPGs, but I’ve never had any female in our groups object. Then again, we don’t really spend a lot of in-game time reading through the books; the GM (that'd be me) does, the players get what they need to play, and we play.
 
Honestly, this sounds like the sort of game that will get contributors from RPGnet to show off how socially conscious they are, then will sit on a bookshelf and never be played.

Quote from: Zachary The First;469244I'd say the only think I'd mention is there's definitely some cheesecake art in a lot of RPGs, but I've never had any female in our groups object. Then again, we don't really spend a lot of in-game time reading through the books; the GM (that's be me) does, the players get what they need to play, and we play.
 
Honestly, this sounds like the sort of game that will get contributors from RPGnet to show off how socially conscious they are, then will sit on a bookshelf and never be played.

Totally agree about RPGnet; it's always been a place where people fall over each other to outdo everyone else in the "I'm more sensitive" game.

As for the cheesecake art, I've never found a female who had a real issue (themselves often being big fans of beefcake covered romance novels).

Frankly, I'd rather not game with someone who would be the type to rant on about being offended over cheesy art.  That kind of feminism I can live without.

Quote from: RPGPundit;469230So is there really something in the games themselves, now that we've outgrown the silly "women have lower str stat maximums" period, that make RPGs sexist and would need some special games for women to be able to play?

RPGPundit

Yes. To a great extent, fantasy RPGs are playgrounds for outdated stereotypes and privileged fantasies. The way I see it, you have a few options when writing a fantasy RPG:

1) Accept sexist tropes from historical and mythological inspiration and acknowledge them as such
2) Create a non-sexist, egalitarian milieu
3) Combine options 1) and 2) in such a way that you parade around white male privilege in a spectacularly embarrassing fashion
4) Admit you are a sexist, and try at least to make a point of not being an asshole about it
5) Admit you are a sexist, and generally act like an asshole about it

Quote from: RPGPundit;469230So is there really something in the games themselves, now that we've outgrown the silly "women have lower str stat maximums" period, that make RPGs sexist and would need some special games for women to be able to play?

The women (and there have been a good number of them -- often one-third to one-half of the group) who have played in my campaigns over the years haven't had any problems with the gamesystems in general.

Quote from: DominikSchwager;469232Reposting from rpg.net:

we have zero conflicts that got resolved by conflict.

What?

Quote from: Grymbok;469243When I go to metal gigs, the audience is generally pretty white. But somehow metal forums manage to get by without threads about "How can we make more black people like AC/DC?"

So yeah. RPGs seem to appeal to dudes more than they do to chicks. Unless it gets tail-chasingly bad with RPG books turning in to barely concealed porn, I can't really seem to get too bothered about this "problem".

Yeah this is my main thought too. RPGs are sexist in that they are about stuff most women just don't care about.

Fantasy fiction appeals to both sexes but the stuff the women like the rerlationships between the characters is ignoresin most RPGs where its mostly all about the killing and the maiming and the gold.

I say this as a guy who's mum ran long running D&D campaigns and who has had several girlfriends pay a passing interest (until they learn it's all about the killign and the maiming and the gold ). So there are exceptions both in the style of games but also in women (of course )

One thing i think is quite funny that happens at a lot of Cons including Origins i was just at, if that for the adventures people nearly always split the party 50:50 male female even though they know that its unlikely a single woman would show up. When I ran my Amber game at GenCon I had 8 PCs and let the players choose 6. I included 2 females on the basis that these were likely to be the ones not chosen. As it happens there was a female player but I think Amber appeals more to females becuase it is less about killing and more about relationships and there is less gold.

Quote from: jibbajibba;469251Fantasy fiction appeals to both sexes but the stuff the women like the rerlationships between the characters is ignoresin most RPGs where its mostly all about the killing and the maiming and the gold.

Not what I've seen in the female fans of Final Fantasy and World of Warcraft. Lots of killing, levelling, and looting there (or at least lots of patience for killing, levelling, and looting if you're going to argue that this isn't what attracts a greater percentage of women to the game).

I'm just fed up of people tying fucking agendas to games. As much as I enjoy my little Afterwords I do wish I could focus on the game itself rather than having to spend half the fucking thing talking about my view on the issues which is totally irrelevant to you enjoying the game.

In Courtesans I even said it can easily be played by people with polar opposite "moral" viewpoints to me. Infact I'd say it's easier for them as things get so shitty and as an endgame you tend to catch something horrible, go bankrupt, get murdered, die in childbirth, go mad or worst of all end up married to an idiot!

Well, it depends. I'd have said "Not so much anymore.."

Until I read the threads over on RPG.net (several of them.) Now, I'm pretty sure that yes, many gamers are sexist, and just refuse to admit it.