Not sure what came over me, but I found a complete boxed set for a reasonable price (worn box, rest is very nice). First impression is that the layout is a bit rough, but I knew that. The art is charmingly "home made" but I really like some of these pieces. It's pretty nice how the rules are carefully laid out in each section, "the reasons why" the rules were established the way they are, is literally explained. All of this was expected as I have been looking at the pdfs before. Runequest always made a lot of sense to me.
......and then I noticed the "Fangs" booklet. Man, this is so useful that I can scarcely believe that not more RPGs do this. It's a long list of pre-rolled characters and monsters in all sorts of shapes and sizes. I wasn't even sure if I wanted this box mostly for the old nostalgia (had a friend who talked about Runequest well over 30 years ago), and maybe a bit inspiration, but now I think I actually feel like running this thing as is. I got "Apple Lane" too, which I have heard is a good starting point. Other adventure module suggestions are welcome (is Griffin Island any good?)
You ought to get Pavis, Big Rubble, and especially Borderlands. The first two are elaborate settings with some adventures included; Borderlands is an entire multi-episode campaign and is great for starting characters. Second only to Masks of Nyarlathotep, I consider Borderlands to be the best published RPG campaign of all time. Snakepipe Hollow is pretty much one big dungeon crawl - a set of caves infested by Chaos. Chaosium has made pretty much all of the old RQ2 stuff available again, either in print or PDF. Don't know about Griffin Island (that was the RQ3 re-title; it was originally Griffin Mountain for RQ2. Some pretty good (Glorantha) modules were published for RQ3 and should be easy to convert, some of the best being Sun County (another big setting with adventures included) and Shadows on the Borderland. It's actually pretty hard to go wrong on any supplements for RQ2 or RQ3. All of it was good; just some were better than others, but none were a waste of money.
I think Apple Lane is the single-best introduction session module of any system I have seen. (There are a lot of systems I've never seen.) I'm not sure why that is, because on its face it is not particularly noteworthy. All I know, is I've used it three different times, all with groups new to RQ, and by the time it was done, they all knew how to play, had a good feel for the vibe of the system, and they no longer thought ducks were all that funny. :D
Quote from: I on October 29, 2022, 01:16:56 AM
Don't know about Griffin Island (that was the RQ3 re-title; it was originally Griffin Mountain for RQ2.
Griffin Mountain was an overland hex crawl adventure, similar in format to B10 Night's Dark Terror (but much bigger). It doesn't really fit in with the regular Glorantha stuff and it still sticks to the idea that parts of Glorantha would not be developed but reserved for iindividual GMs to expand upon. Of course this was back before you needed a Masters in History to play in Glorantha.
Still my favourite game, though I rarely get it to play it these days.
I just noticed that RQ2 has more bonuses than some (most?) later editions. Including a defense bonus that you extract from attacks against you. This reminds me a bit of Rolemaster, and I wonder if RQ was the inspiration here. Do most of you keep this in play, are were there good reasons to get rid of it?
I think the idea of a negative modifier added to your opponent confused people so they removed it. I know one of my character had trouble with the idea, perhaps I explained it poorly. I think now a days few would have trouble with the idea.
OK thanks! I think I will try playing this as close to "as is" at first to see what it's like, so I'll keep it for now.
I also ordered Cults of Prax from Chaosium.
Quote from: Trond on October 30, 2022, 09:19:02 PM
OK thanks! I think I will try playing this as close to "as is" at first to see what it's like, so I'll keep it for now.
I also ordered Cults of Prax from Chaosium.
If you end up enjoying Cults of Prax, I'd highly recommend that you purchase Cults of Terror as well. It's a very fun read if nothing else, but I think you'll find it a useful gaming aid.
OK maybe I'll check it out.
BTW has there ever been a published GM screen for RQ2?
If I remember right they replaced Defense with Dodge in RQ3. Could be they wanted it more active in that you roll for your dodge instead of applying it to anothers roll.
Quote from: Trond on October 31, 2022, 11:44:11 AM
OK maybe I'll check it out.
BTW has there ever been a published GM screen for RQ2?
Yes, Judges Guild did one called the "RuneQuest Judges Shield". In actual play it didn't provide much defense from players though...
Late to the party but still a party worth getting to.
RQ1 was what I used to pull people away from D&D when it came out.
Mostly easy to understand but not being basically low powered superheroes was a bit of an uphill climb.
What does 1 and 2 have that RQG doesnt? Not saying either is better genuinely curious if it's worth playing over their latest
Quote from: Ocule on November 01, 2022, 02:03:21 PM
What does 1 and 2 have that RQG doesnt? Not saying either is better genuinely curious if it's worth playing over their latest
Theres alsmost always something lost, dumbed down, or changed that just doesnt sit well with each go-round of the edition treadmill. And This was no different. Though of I recall right it is mostly an outgrowth of RQ 3e. Much the same as how each edition of CoC has little changes. Not all bad. Well till you get to the most recent.
Theres also a RQ quickstart PDF up on the Chaosium site.
Though the winner there was the AH RQ boxed set. Just enough to get a bare bones basic game going. But not enough to satisfy.
Quote from: Ocule on November 01, 2022, 02:03:21 PM
What does 1 and 2 have that RQG doesnt? Not saying either is better genuinely curious if it's worth playing over their latest
RQ1/RQ2 have an absence of all the rococo additions of RQG (detailed character histories, detailed rules for runes, detailed rules for passions, etc.). Whether or not those additions add up to more, or less, is subjective. I'd pick RQ1/RQ2 over RGQ for a Bronze Age game not set in Glorantha (and RQ3 over any of them). Fans of Glorantha (which I'm not) seem happy with RQG (and the art for it is really quite good).
Quote from: rhialto on November 01, 2022, 03:18:55 PM
Quote from: Ocule on November 01, 2022, 02:03:21 PM
What does 1 and 2 have that RQG doesnt? Not saying either is better genuinely curious if it's worth playing over their latest
RQ1/RQ2 have an absence of all the rococo additions of RQG (detailed character histories, detailed rules for runes, detailed rules for passions, etc.). Whether or not those additions add up to more, or less, is subjective. I'd pick RQ1/RQ2 over RGQ for a Bronze Age game not set in Glorantha (and RQ3 over any of them). Fans of Glorantha (which I'm not) seem happy with RQG (and the art for it is really quite good).
Yeah, I like RQG art too, it's good work, but there's also something charmingly rough about RQ2.
RQ2 also has that great tendency to spell out very clearly why the rules are the way they are, plus a bit humor. Of course, these things don't affect play much, but it makes rules a bit easier to learn.
I was also thinking about running a different Bronze Age setting, although right now I'm trying to get into Glorantha to see if there's something I like there. One alternative idea was to make up a pseudo-historical Aegean island, with a Minoan/Santorini-like culture, Hatti (Hittites) to the East, Achaeans (Mycenaean Greeks) to the north. And a larger island, Kaftor, to the south (Crete-like), as well as Egypt or an Egypt-like culture on the main land.
It would be a bit grittier than many people think of such cultures; most people just think of the athletic people prancing around Minoan in paintings, which is fine. But notice how many Mediterrenan islands have a lot of blood feuds and vendettas going on, even mentioned in some old Roman texts (and a theme I have been reading quite a bit about). Gods would be real and relatively present, more like Glorantha than some over-the-top fantasy though. There would also be various nature spirits, perhaps vengeful undead etc.
Quote from: Trond on November 01, 2022, 09:11:30 PMI was also thinking about running a different Bronze Age setting...One alternative idea was to make up a pseudo-historical Aegean island, with a Minoan/Santorini-like culture, Hatti (Hittites) to the East, Achaeans (Mycenaean Greeks) to the north. And a larger island, Kaftor, to the south (Crete-like), as well as Egypt or an Egypt-like culture on the main land.
It would be a bit grittier than many people think of such cultures; most people just think of the athletic people prancing around Minoan in paintings, which is fine. But notice how many Mediterrenan islands have a lot of blood feuds and vendettas going on, even mentioned in some old Roman texts (and a theme I have been reading quite a bit about). Gods would be real and relatively present, more like Glorantha than some over-the-top fantasy though. There would also be various nature spirits, perhaps vengeful undead etc.
Given that premise (which sounds very appealing) I'd go RQ1/2/3 all the way. If you have the RQ2 Rune Masters that might be a good addition for truly heroic play. There's also Mythras, which is another rococo ruleset, based on RQ6.
You keep saying rococo. What do you mean in this context I'm just thinking of art
Quote from: Ocule on November 02, 2022, 08:17:33 AM
You keep saying rococo. What do you mean in this context I'm just thinking of art
I'm just being odd: if you consider baroque = "something going on every square inch" and rococo = "two things going on every square inch", and apply those terms to games, then I'm implying they have lots of rules for lots of things. To bring the analogy back to RuneQuest: the Resistance Table was an excellent pre-baroque generic implementation of "what are the chances of two opposing forces winning a contest?" Baroque would then take that idea and elaborate on "what are the rules around Strength vs. Strength contests?" "Strength vs Dexterity?", "Spirit Combat?", etc. Rococo would elaborate on those elaborations (e.g., Mythras' Combat Special Effects, or RQG's Gloranthan Family Trees).
As a side note, when I hear Rococo I think a more la-di-da effeminate version of Baroque.
8)...well, I chose the analogy for a reason: some like that type of thing, others not so much.
Quote from: rhialto on November 02, 2022, 09:44:49 AM
I'm just being odd: if you consider baroque = "something going on every square inch" and rococo = "two things going on every square inch", and apply those terms to games, then I'm implying they have lots of rules for lots of things. To bring the analogy back to RuneQuest: the Resistance Table was an excellent pre-baroque generic implementation of "what are the chances of two opposing forces winning a contest?" Baroque would then take that idea and elaborate on "what are the rules around Strength vs. Strength contests?" "Strength vs Dexterity?", "Spirit Combat?", etc. Rococo would elaborate on those elaborations (e.g., Mythras' Combat Special Effects, or RQG's Gloranthan Family Trees).
Not that odd; I've been known to use the term 'Old School Baroque' (riffing off of Old School Renaissance) for things following in the tradition of Chivalry & Sorcery, Rolemaster,
et al..
(Then again, I may not be the best witness for the proposition that something's not odd ... ;) )
So what all changed between 1-2-3-etc.
How does the AH version differ? Aside from the obvious change in setting?
Quote from: Omega on November 03, 2022, 07:43:11 AM
So what all changed between 1-2-3-etc.
How does the AH version differ? Aside from the obvious change in setting?
The first and second editions are almost identical. The 2e rulebook just has more setting information. The third edition, which was released by Avalon Hill but still written by Chaosium, had more major changes. Most notably:
-Switching skills away from 5% multiples
-Minor reahuffling of the skill list
-Converting the Impale chance into a more general "Special Success"
-The addition of a skill-based magic system called Sorcery (and imported from Chaosium's Magic World game)
Overall, the early versions were fairly compatible.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 03, 2022, 08:20:28 AM
Quote from: Omega on November 03, 2022, 07:43:11 AM
So what all changed between 1-2-3-etc.
How does the AH version differ? Aside from the obvious change in setting?
The first and second editions are almost identical. The 2e rulebook just has more setting information. The third edition, which was released by Avalon Hill but still written by Chaosium, had more major changes. Most notably:
-Switching skills away from 5% multiples
-Minor reahuffling of the skill list
-Converting the Impale chance into a more general "Special Success"
-The addition of a skill-based magic system called Sorcery (and imported from Chaosium's Magic World game)
Overall, the early versions were fairly compatible.
Thanks for that overview. I hadn't really thought about some of these, but it's been a while since I looked at RQ3.
Also, there's the extra bonuses in RQ2, e.g. Defensive Bonus which was removed in RQ3.
I have the AH version and if recall right it was set on what looks like ancient Earth rather than Glorantha. Though I think the UK was canted on its side?
Quote from: Omega on November 03, 2022, 12:56:09 PM
I have the AH version and if recall right it was set on what looks like ancient Earth rather than Glorantha. Though I think the UK was canted on its side?
It suggests fantasy Europe and Glorantha as options. There's far more info on Glorantha though. I'm guessing the Vikings supplement was seen as part of fantasy Europe.
I played in Harn and found RQ2 worked nicely even though it wasn't a bronze age setting. I loved the ship info from RQ3 but found most of the other changes just overcomplicated what was a nice streamlined game. One thing I didn't like about RQ is that everyone has magic but that was easy enough to change.
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 03, 2022, 01:30:44 PM
I played in Harn and found RQ2 worked nicely even though it wasn't a bronze age setting. I loved the ship info from RQ3 but found most of the other changes just overcomplicated what was a nice streamlined game. One thing I didn't like about RQ is that everyone has magic but that was easy enough to change.
Yes, I consider RQ3 to be the baroque stage of RQ, with RQ6/Mythras and RQG rococo (and mercifully shunning MRQ1/2). There's a solid, fairly generic, core in RQ2.
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 03, 2022, 01:30:44 PM
I played in Harn and found RQ2 worked nicely even though it wasn't a bronze age setting. I loved the ship info from RQ3 but found most of the other changes just overcomplicated what was a nice streamlined game. One thing I didn't like about RQ is that everyone has magic but that was easy enough to change.
I guess there's not too much reason to think of Runequest as a Bronze Age system, other than tradition. There is some Bronze Age inspiration in the cults I believe. Some of the weapons tables (RQ2) do have a good selection of axes, spears and even includes a sickle that fit that time well (Glorantha is of course different from real world Bronze Age) but also some other weapons that don't. I don't think the rapier in the table is supposed to be a Bronze Age rapier, more like a true 17th century-style rapier.
In case anyone may interested in getting their own copies, Chaosium is selling RQ2 products on their website.
https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-classic/
https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-classic-pdfs/
https://www.chaosium.com/glorantha-classics/
Note that the hardback RQ2 rules as well as the softback Borderlands and Beyond are in-stock items, and are consequently cheaper than the other items, which are POD.
Quote from: Trond on November 04, 2022, 12:17:29 AM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 03, 2022, 01:30:44 PM
I played in Harn and found RQ2 worked nicely even though it wasn't a bronze age setting. I loved the ship info from RQ3 but found most of the other changes just overcomplicated what was a nice streamlined game. One thing I didn't like about RQ is that everyone has magic but that was easy enough to change.
I guess there's not too much reason to think of Runequest as a Bronze Age system, other than tradition. There is some Bronze Age inspiration in the cults I believe. Some of the weapons tables (RQ2) do have a good selection of axes, spears and even includes a sickle that fit that time well (Glorantha is of course different from real world Bronze Age) but also some other weapons that don't. I don't think the rapier in the table is supposed to be a Bronze Age rapier, more like a true 17th century-style rapier.
Well, there is the whole section on iron (pp.61 - 62 of the RQ2 Classic book), wherein it's described as being somewhat magical, lighter and more durable than bronze (all useful traits in a world primarily using magic, and bronze weapons and armor).
Quote from: markmohrfield on November 04, 2022, 02:08:20 AM
In case anyone may interested in getting their own copies, Chaosium is selling RQ2 products on their website.
https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-classic/
https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-classic-pdfs/
https://www.chaosium.com/glorantha-classics/
Note that the hardback RQ2 rules as well as the softback Borderlands and Beyond are in-stock items, and are consequently cheaper than other items.
I have these, and they're quite good: reasonably priced and excellent production quality.
Quote from: rhialto on November 04, 2022, 05:12:47 AM
Well, there is the whole section on iron (pp.61 - 62 of the RQ2 Classic book), wherein it's described as being somewhat magical, lighter and more durable than bronze (all useful traits in a world primarily using magic, and bronze weapons and armor).
Yes iron for Rune Lords. I'd considered using the Iron Rules across the board but without everyone having magic it made it really hard to actually hurt someone in decent armor (which is probably accurate but less fun). My group back in high school had no idea how often iron or bronze weapons broke so we played as is and we all blissfully pretended it was all steel.
I just made a few characters according to the rules, but always assuming that the character can have an Apprenticeship (5 years of 4000 L worth of training per year). If I want to take my time this seems to be a fine way to create a RQ character, but I am not too fond of the slow skill-buying system with rising costs (though I see the logic).
Much faster and roughly equivalent in power seems to be this option I just made up: Roll the characteristics (stats) normally*, calculate the bonuses (I like how these are formulated), and then just give the character 220 percentage points to add to skills that player and GM feel matches the apprenticeship (max 75%, but no need to go by 5% increments). Levels in spells according to this system would be about 20 points. Also add social status, look up hit location points etc. The resulting character is not too far off from the above.
What do you think of this?
*Perhaps giving the choice of players picking the heroic 2D6+6 OR the safer but more average start with 8 in all and add 20 characteristic points. Both are from the Appendices.
Quote from: Trond on November 05, 2022, 10:32:24 PM
What do you think of this?
I ran this game for years and I never used the Apprentiship rules. You'd roll the stats, canculate your bonuses, add that to the Basic chance for each skill and then start playing.
Because of the way the experience rules worked, the PCs would be nearing 50% in no time at all.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 05, 2022, 10:41:45 PM
Quote from: Trond on November 05, 2022, 10:32:24 PM
What do you think of this?
I ran this game for years and I never used the Apprentiship rules. You'd roll the stats, canculate your bonuses, add that to the Basic chance for each skill and then start playing.
Because of the way the experience rules worked, the PCs would be nearing 50% in no time at all.
Cool! I guess there is charm to building up from a very basic and inexperienced character. Is Apple Lane good for this sort of thing perhaps?
Quote from: Trond on November 05, 2022, 11:08:20 PM
Cool! I guess there is charm to building up from a very basic and inexperienced character. Is Apple Lane good for this sort of thing perhaps?
Yes, it is. Having the characters defend an area that they are a given a chance to learn before defending it gives a lot of room for mistakes. Of course, if the players don't take advantage of that, it won't help them. But that's also educational. :D
Quote from: Trond on November 05, 2022, 10:32:24 PMWhat do you think of this?
Lots of other BRP variants use something like this: a pool of points assigned to a subset of the skill list, based on background/profession. I recall using it in RQ2 early on, but it has been quite a while since I've actually played default RQ2 (instead using it as the foundation for a more generic Fantasy Earth game, supplemented with house rules from RQ3). Stormbringer is the one I've played the most recently, and it uses the 2d6+6 for all attributes and a large pool of skill points (compared to RQ2).
Quote from: rhialto on November 06, 2022, 05:34:18 AM
Quote from: Trond on November 05, 2022, 10:32:24 PMWhat do you think of this?
Lots of other BRP variants use something like this: a pool of points assigned to a subset of the skill list, based on background/profession. I recall using it in RQ2 early on, but it has been quite a while since I've actually played default RQ2 (instead using it as the foundation for a more generic Fantasy Earth game, supplemented with house rules from RQ3). Stormbringer is the one I've played the most recently, and it uses the 2d6+6 for all attributes and a large pool of skill points (compared to RQ2).
Oh yes, I have also used Stormbringer in the past, particularly for more high powered sword & sorcery. I think I may run Runequest somewhere in between the absolute minimum starting values and the higher power levels of some other games, using the RQ2 appendices as options.
I did another experiment with RQ2 background options from the Appendices:
I rolled fairly average characteristics, but he turned out to be a nobleman. So I tried Heavy Cavalry as his background. To summarize; this gave the character roughly 350% worth of extra skills (110% had to be weapons), plus three spells (1 first level and two second level in this case).
I will have to take another look at the appendices: that seems like a good representation of a Greek or Trojan of semi-divine descent (with the spells refigured as "divine gifts", and not necessarily "magic spells").
Here's an idea: if players roll characteristics randomly, don't roll social status randomly. The GM can point to the player who rolls the worst characteristics and say; "you m'lord are a wealthy noble, your characteristics are a bit low because you were spoiled as a kid!"
Quote from: Trond on November 05, 2022, 11:08:20 PM
Cool! I guess there is charm to building up from a very basic and inexperienced character. Is Apple Lane good for this sort of thing perhaps?
I only recently got a copy of Apple Lane. Back when I ran Runequest I was a broke student and wrote all my own adventures. At first I was enamored with all the skill lists so my early adventures had lots of rocks to move, things to climb, and traps to spot. My first adventure only had three skeletons and a couple of rubble runners.
IMO, RuneQuest works great for low level (or low skill) adventures. If you start PCs off with 300+ bonus skill points you're skipping a fun phase of the game.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 07, 2022, 01:17:59 PM
Quote from: Trond on November 05, 2022, 11:08:20 PM
Cool! I guess there is charm to building up from a very basic and inexperienced character. Is Apple Lane good for this sort of thing perhaps?
I only recently got a copy of Apple Lane. Back when I ran Runequest I was a broke student and wrote all my own adventures. At first I was enamored with all the skill lists so my early adventures had lots of rocks to move, things to climb, and traps to spot. My first adventure only had three skeletons and a couple of rubble runners.
IMO, RuneQuest works great for low level (or low skill) adventures. If you start PCs off with 300+ bonus skill points you're skipping a fun phase of the game.
Agreed. The game was great for playing characters that improved through doing things.
Some players though just do not like that and want to be RAHH ME HULK! out the gate and steamroller everything. Then invariably turn around and bitch about how boring the game is because "theres no challenge!"
More reasonable players just want a slight leg up over a complete entry level. Usually so they can use some gear they saw in the book or to better represent an idea they had.
Since some of you were interested in my Bronze Age setting, maybe you'll like this too: just found this tracing of an ancient Mycenaean/Minoan agate. Possibly the most detailed depiction of melee of that time.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52493691348_88c844ee71_c.jpg)
Quote from: Omega on November 07, 2022, 09:39:13 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 07, 2022, 01:17:59 PM
Quote from: Trond on November 05, 2022, 11:08:20 PM
Cool! I guess there is charm to building up from a very basic and inexperienced character. Is Apple Lane good for this sort of thing perhaps?
I only recently got a copy of Apple Lane. Back when I ran Runequest I was a broke student and wrote all my own adventures. At first I was enamored with all the skill lists so my early adventures had lots of rocks to move, things to climb, and traps to spot. My first adventure only had three skeletons and a couple of rubble runners.
IMO, RuneQuest works great for low level (or low skill) adventures. If you start PCs off with 300+ bonus skill points you're skipping a fun phase of the game.
Agreed. The game was great for playing characters that improved through doing things.
Some players though just do not like that and want to be RAHH ME HULK! out the gate and steamroller everything. Then invariably turn around and bitch about how boring the game is because "theres no challenge!"
More reasonable players just want a slight leg up over a complete entry level. Usually so they can use some gear they saw in the book or to better represent an idea they had.
BTW, my suggestion above (loosely based on the RQ2 Appendices) is pretty close to that last suggestion. Compare, for instance, the new RQ Glorantha. They start with higher skills than the background options of the Appendices of RQ2 and ALL the RQG sample characters have a damage bonus.