I would assume this line of questioning primarily applies to low level magic users, since high level magic users are potentially quite terrifying, and at the very least are arguably more impressive in raw HP/To-hit than low level fighters and the like. They may not be max-level fighter good at fighting outside certain buffs and such, but really who is?

That said, I'm pretty sure even low level magic users have at least some degree of weapon proficiency/martial training, or else they probably wouldn't have that mechanically reflected as something where they are better with certain weapons. I'd assume this probably implies some degree of capacity with them. I also feel like they are at least deadlier than a lot of level 0 characters or the like, and many NPC weaklings, or literal rats, when you factor in that they have at least one spell on top of that. I'd bet on the average magic user over the average commoner, maybe even with both at level one, even though the commoner probably has more real world experience with hardship outside book learning.

Not really sure how to address verisimilitude and realism, but I don't think magic users are really all that weak in general, I guess.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on April 16, 2024, 03:12:34 PMGandalf is way more than 'just a 5th lvl Magic-User'.

LOL - I am sure if Jim Ward and Rob Kuntz had the rights to stat block Gandalf in Deities and Demigods they would have made Gandalf a 30th lvl MU, 14th lvl Druid and 8th level Fighter with 200hp. I was repeating a joke article by Bill Seligman from Dragon No.5 (March 77) that Gygax used to repeat at conventions to annoy fans of everyone's favorite Professor. That article lists Gandalf's spell list as Phantasmal Force, Ventriloquism, Light, either burning Hands, pyrotechnics or fireball for the pine cones, lightning bolt, charm person and protection from normal missiles. The article also notes that he has a magic ring and staff that could have given him more magic. You had me at the telekinesis - but iirc that was a Peter Jackson invention, not from JRRT himself. The best bit about that article was Tim Kask's 'Please address your responses to 'Out on A Limb'.   

Nope. From Book III: The White Rider (what is considered the first book of The Two Towers)

The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.

Ok, fair enough, thank you for taking the time to dig out the quote - but it could be a spell from Gandalf's staff rather than his ability as a mage. In any event, Gimli dropping his axe could be the result of the 4th level spell Fumble rather than Telekinesis, followed by Heat Metal (although a Druid spell) and Protection from Normal Missiles. As Gandalf has just gone up at least one level after fighting the Balrog - to become Gandalf the White - he is probably at that stage a 7th level magic-user :-)

The Gandalf the White in Fangorn scenario does indicate another problem making AD&D magic users weak - and that is spell casting time. Fumble is 4 segments (24 seconds) as is Heat Metal, if it was Telekinesis that would be 5 segments (30 seconds), Protection from Normal Missiles takes 3 segments (18 seconds) and lasts for 1 turn a level (so if Gandalf was 7th level he could have it 'on' for 1 hour and 10 minutes). The time for casting doesn't change with increase in levels, or a Haste spell. Even assuming Gandalf rolled a 2 on surprise, won a 6-1 initiative and the rules allowed such a combo of spells in a combat round, he could not fire off them all off before at least one of the three fighters got in an attack.

The casting time issue is therefore another factor that makes the magic user weak in a fight - indeed, Gary makes this explicit in the 1e DMG -  'spell casting during a melee can be a tricky business, for a mere shove at any time can spoil the dweomer! ... most magic-users and clerics will opt to use magical devices whenever possible in melee, if they are wise (DMG p.65).

Quote from: El-V on April 18, 2024, 02:31:56 AMOk, fair enough, thank you for taking the time to dig out the quote - but it could be a spell from Gandalf's staff rather than his ability as a mage. In any event, Gimli dropping his axe could be the result of the 4th level spell Fumble rather than Telekinesis, followed by Heat Metal (although a Druid spell) and Protection from Normal Missiles. As Gandalf has just gone up at least one level after fighting the Balrog - to become Gandalf the White - he is probably at that stage a 7th level magic-user :-)

The Gandalf the White in Fangorn scenario does indicate another problem making AD&D magic users weak - and that is spell casting time. Fumble is 4 segments (24 seconds) as is Heat Metal, if it was Telekinesis that would be 5 segments (30 seconds), Protection from Normal Missiles takes 3 segments (18 seconds) and lasts for 1 turn a level (so if Gandalf was 7th level he could have it 'on' for 1 hour and 10 minutes). The time for casting doesn't change with increase in levels, or a Haste spell. Even assuming Gandalf rolled a 2 on surprise, won a 6-1 initiative and the rules allowed such a combo of spells in a combat round, he could not fire off them all off before at least one of the three fighters got in an attack.

Or it could be that it was a glamour effect from Gandalf meeting his old friends. "Magic" in Middle Earth was rarely (if ever) as mechanical as D&D. Casting times and somatic components and whatnot. I really do not think Gandalf was chucking spells in that scene. It was more apprehension and the aura of majesty of a Maiar reborn.
Plus, writers gonna write what reads good.