Quote from: RPGPundit on March 24, 2022, 08:21:21 PM
....

There'll probably be a Gay Dia De Los Muertos. Because everyone knows all "Latinxes" are super pro-LGBT pagan death-worshippers.

True, true. I agree. Latinx.......sigh

Expect this book to have zero artwork of any Caucasion looking person, and these woke turds will proclaim it as a win for representation and inclusion.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2022, 08:00:16 AM
The Citadel is not some isolated community where everyone has been indoctrinated into giving up crime and undesirable behavior since birth, but an central hub in the middle of the Ethereal plane (which is pretty much a crossroads between planes of existence tied to everywhere) where adventurers from all over the place and all these bad behaviors already in their minds can come and relax. How do they screen "good" adventurers from grave robbers and backstabbers, or even bandits and other criminal elements that also travel all over the place? And how do they keep sneak thieves from going around picking everyone's pockets or setting up their own criminal operations, or disparate groups of armed and hardened individuals from descending into all out conflict over a disagreement, or even rivalries between groups that already existed before they got to that place?

You could have an aloof leader enforcing the goodness and safeness of the space.  If you go against her edicts then she could either banish you to a time out maze to think about what you have done or, if your crimes are sever enough, cancel you with her shadow that can cut like a blade.

I would call her Lady of Pain Safeness.

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 25, 2022, 08:48:27 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2022, 08:00:16 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 25, 2022, 02:02:50 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:31:31 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:16:49 PM
If it were not being used as yet another hateful agenda platform. It would be a pretty good setting.

Think about it.

How many cities in and out of D&D are actually safe to just walk around and interact in without some maniac crawling out of the woodwork to kill you? Or rob you? Or trick you? No political intrigue even?

That sounds great and is exactly the sort of place I drop into my own campaigns and is the default setting for an upcoming book. The other default setting being the diametric opposite of peaceful and safe. 

But nooooo. We cant just have a nice setting area. No. They have to turn it into another agenda platform.

It's a hub, it has magic stones that are portals to the other worlds of D&D...

How the actual fuck is it totally free of ANY conflict/bad actor?

Even assuming that HASHTAG Not All (insert your monster here) are evil, there are SOME that are most deffinetelly evil, so...

How is it that not a single bad actor ever goes there? How come that there's not a single thief, conman, etc there?

What you see as a nice and safe environment stinks of fascist government to me.

And it should be obvious to the leftards writting it: You'd need guards in every point of entry on the other worlds, reading the minds, detecting alignment, etc and preventing said bad actors to ever crossing, you would also need to cull anyone born there that doesn't fall in the approved parameters of the government. Before they ever commit any crime, think pre-crime but worst and on a global scale.

Either that or you are exerting mind control over anyone who crosses/is born there.

Like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface it reveals itself as a Dystopia.

Well that's cynical as hell.  Will people only become good if they're forced to do so?  My personal experience says no.

So I think I'll ramble a bit ...  A utopia is a place without problems.  Problems can come from the environment, people outside the utopia, and people inside the utopia.  The first two are theoretically possible to deal with, but the kicker is that a utopia is more of a people than a place, and a utopia without free will, where people are forced to be good, is indeed a dystopia. 

But I think that this challenge can be addressed as well.  First there needs to be general agreement on what is good.  This happens in real life to some extent in any society, and to a great extent within some communities such as religious organizations.  So that's at least theoretically possible. 

The next and key issue is how can all these people live continue to live according to their ideals without removing free will.  Education, inspiration, and social expectations will get most of the way there, I think.  And for those that really don't want to be good, well they can leave.  And I think that covers it.  None of that violates free will or requires mind control.

Does utopia need to be policed?  Sure, but so does any society.  No mind reading is necessary.  Thinking bad thoughts doesn't affect anyone else's utopia experience.  And if someone does bad, then they can be given the choice of doing better or leaving.

The Citadel is not some isolated community where everyone has been indoctrinated into giving up crime and undesirable behavior since birth, but an central hub in the middle of the Ethereal plane (which is pretty much a crossroads between planes of existence tied to everywhere) where adventurers from all over the place and all these bad behaviors already in their minds can come and relax. How do they screen "good" adventurers from grave robbers and backstabbers, or even bandits and other criminal elements that also travel all over the place? And how do they keep sneak thieves from going around picking everyone's pockets or setting up their own criminal operations, or disparate groups of armed and hardened individuals from descending into all out conflict over a disagreement, or even rivalries between groups that already existed before they got to that place?

More importantly, how do they keep the Kender out of the Sparkly Safe Space?

That's a point where I differ from most DMs.  It's not a utopia unless there are kender.  With just one kender I no longer need to drive the story - all the drama happens by itself and I can just kick back and watch the players go for half an hour at a time.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2022, 08:00:16 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 25, 2022, 02:02:50 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:31:31 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:16:49 PM
If it were not being used as yet another hateful agenda platform. It would be a pretty good setting.

Think about it.

How many cities in and out of D&D are actually safe to just walk around and interact in without some maniac crawling out of the woodwork to kill you? Or rob you? Or trick you? No political intrigue even?

That sounds great and is exactly the sort of place I drop into my own campaigns and is the default setting for an upcoming book. The other default setting being the diametric opposite of peaceful and safe. 

But nooooo. We cant just have a nice setting area. No. They have to turn it into another agenda platform.

It's a hub, it has magic stones that are portals to the other worlds of D&D...

How the actual fuck is it totally free of ANY conflict/bad actor?

Even assuming that HASHTAG Not All (insert your monster here) are evil, there are SOME that are most deffinetelly evil, so...

How is it that not a single bad actor ever goes there? How come that there's not a single thief, conman, etc there?

What you see as a nice and safe environment stinks of fascist government to me.

And it should be obvious to the leftards writting it: You'd need guards in every point of entry on the other worlds, reading the minds, detecting alignment, etc and preventing said bad actors to ever crossing, you would also need to cull anyone born there that doesn't fall in the approved parameters of the government. Before they ever commit any crime, think pre-crime but worst and on a global scale.

Either that or you are exerting mind control over anyone who crosses/is born there.

Like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface it reveals itself as a Dystopia.

Well that's cynical as hell.  Will people only become good if they're forced to do so?  My personal experience says no.

So I think I'll ramble a bit ...  A utopia is a place without problems.  Problems can come from the environment, people outside the utopia, and people inside the utopia.  The first two are theoretically possible to deal with, but the kicker is that a utopia is more of a people than a place, and a utopia without free will, where people are forced to be good, is indeed a dystopia. 

But I think that this challenge can be addressed as well.  First there needs to be general agreement on what is good.  This happens in real life to some extent in any society, and to a great extent within some communities such as religious organizations.  So that's at least theoretically possible. 

The next and key issue is how can all these people live continue to live according to their ideals without removing free will.  Education, inspiration, and social expectations will get most of the way there, I think.  And for those that really don't want to be good, well they can leave.  And I think that covers it.  None of that violates free will or requires mind control.

Does utopia need to be policed?  Sure, but so does any society.  No mind reading is necessary.  Thinking bad thoughts doesn't affect anyone else's utopia experience.  And if someone does bad, then they can be given the choice of doing better or leaving.

The Citadel is not some isolated community where everyone has been indoctrinated into giving up crime and undesirable behavior since birth, but an central hub in the middle of the Ethereal plane (which is pretty much a crossroads between planes of existence tied to everywhere) where adventurers from all over the place and all these bad behaviors already in their minds can come and relax. How do they screen "good" adventurers from grave robbers and backstabbers, or even bandits and other criminal elements that also travel all over the place? And how do they keep sneak thieves from going around picking everyone's pockets or setting up their own criminal operations, or disparate groups of armed and hardened individuals from descending into all out conflict over a disagreement, or even rivalries between groups that already existed before they got to that place?

The obvious solution to all of those questions is that you hire a bunch of adventurers to take care of it.  :-)

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 24, 2022, 08:41:06 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 24, 2022, 08:10:38 PM
Eh, we do not know that yet and odds are WOTC is being deceptive again in some manner.

The very adventures set in the city show its not all sparkles and rainbows. The mask slips before its even out the gate.

They want people to bitch about it.

Outrage Marketing? Well, WotC drones do have a tendency to buy anything they make, regardless of how craptastic it is.

Hmmm, do you think that Mongoose is doing the same thing with Shield Maidens?

Is outrage marketing the new thing in game advertising?

Its been around at least 5 years as a major marketing push. Before that WOTC at least was using it with 4e. So the practice goes back at least that far. Probably got its origins in the backlash to the "reimagined" phase back in the early 00s. And unlike the "fans are bad" marketing push. This one has not mostly fell apart. "Subvert Expectations" is another one that needs to die in hell.

The gist of outrage marketing is to garner free advertising by getting pushing the right buttons on critics and fans. Mostly any online critics. Complaints draw attention. Attention draws in sales. It doesnt matter if its an ass backwards ploy and loses customers. Marketing treats these things like a religion.

WOTC alone has been using outrage baiting with 5e for the last few years where they make some statement thats tailored to draw ire. But the actual product has no such thing in it, or if it is it is so minor as to be nothing. As said before. It discredits the complainers and if the product fails. They have their scapegoat that is was those mean ol 'ists" at it again. boo-hoo-hoo! Crocodile tears flow.

But to the average player who is unaware of all this it just looks like some nut making up stuff against a game that they arent seeing any of this "woke threat" in it. Candlekeep is a prime and disgusting example.

Candlekeep: "Look here! Wheelchair Accessible Dungeons!!!!"
Pundit: EXPLODES!!!
Average viewer gets caught in the blast and buys the book to see what all the fuss is about.
Average viewer sees the book doesnt have these things Pundit went thermonuclear about. (Unaware WOTC said they would be in the book) And deduces Pundit is a liar.
WOTC rakes in free advertising and sales: $$$!!!

The people complaining they know arent going to by the book anyhow so riling them up is no loss. And the odds of them turning any potential customers away is by their calculations fairly rare. It will just convince those who arent going to buy anynow not to buy. Again. No loss.

I've seen a few other venues pull it as well.

The only way to fight it is to not take the bait. Which is damnably hard.

Thing is. We already know that this "safe place free of crime, strife and intrigue" is not free of crime strife or intrigue because thats exactly what at least one of the adventures set within the citadel has. Two warring shops that escalates. It probably wont be violence. But the illustration shows theft and outrage at said theft.

Unless they somehow handwave all that off as just "fun and games" friendly rivalry. Which maybe it is. Which is ok with me. as then theyd be consistent with the mission statement. Their idea of "no conflict or intrigue" might not extend to little things.

So its Top Ballista without the gnomes and grime. gnime? Demons and Devils walk the streets and everyone at least tolerates everyone else because otherwise"something" will deal with them and/or they lose access to the place. EG, any given convention. 

We wont know till it comes out. But WOTC is counting on us to overreact.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 25, 2022, 07:22:12 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on March 25, 2022, 08:48:27 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2022, 08:00:16 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 25, 2022, 02:02:50 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 03:31:31 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 22, 2022, 05:16:49 PM
If it were not being used as yet another hateful agenda platform. It would be a pretty good setting.

Think about it.

How many cities in and out of D&D are actually safe to just walk around and interact in without some maniac crawling out of the woodwork to kill you? Or rob you? Or trick you? No political intrigue even?

That sounds great and is exactly the sort of place I drop into my own campaigns and is the default setting for an upcoming book. The other default setting being the diametric opposite of peaceful and safe. 

But nooooo. We cant just have a nice setting area. No. They have to turn it into another agenda platform.

It's a hub, it has magic stones that are portals to the other worlds of D&D...

How the actual fuck is it totally free of ANY conflict/bad actor?

Even assuming that HASHTAG Not All (insert your monster here) are evil, there are SOME that are most deffinetelly evil, so...

How is it that not a single bad actor ever goes there? How come that there's not a single thief, conman, etc there?

What you see as a nice and safe environment stinks of fascist government to me.

And it should be obvious to the leftards writting it: You'd need guards in every point of entry on the other worlds, reading the minds, detecting alignment, etc and preventing said bad actors to ever crossing, you would also need to cull anyone born there that doesn't fall in the approved parameters of the government. Before they ever commit any crime, think pre-crime but worst and on a global scale.

Either that or you are exerting mind control over anyone who crosses/is born there.

Like ALL Utopias, once you scratch the surface it reveals itself as a Dystopia.

Well that's cynical as hell.  Will people only become good if they're forced to do so?  My personal experience says no.

So I think I'll ramble a bit ...  A utopia is a place without problems.  Problems can come from the environment, people outside the utopia, and people inside the utopia.  The first two are theoretically possible to deal with, but the kicker is that a utopia is more of a people than a place, and a utopia without free will, where people are forced to be good, is indeed a dystopia. 

But I think that this challenge can be addressed as well.  First there needs to be general agreement on what is good.  This happens in real life to some extent in any society, and to a great extent within some communities such as religious organizations.  So that's at least theoretically possible. 

The next and key issue is how can all these people live continue to live according to their ideals without removing free will.  Education, inspiration, and social expectations will get most of the way there, I think.  And for those that really don't want to be good, well they can leave.  And I think that covers it.  None of that violates free will or requires mind control.

Does utopia need to be policed?  Sure, but so does any society.  No mind reading is necessary.  Thinking bad thoughts doesn't affect anyone else's utopia experience.  And if someone does bad, then they can be given the choice of doing better or leaving.

The Citadel is not some isolated community where everyone has been indoctrinated into giving up crime and undesirable behavior since birth, but an central hub in the middle of the Ethereal plane (which is pretty much a crossroads between planes of existence tied to everywhere) where adventurers from all over the place and all these bad behaviors already in their minds can come and relax. How do they screen "good" adventurers from grave robbers and backstabbers, or even bandits and other criminal elements that also travel all over the place? And how do they keep sneak thieves from going around picking everyone's pockets or setting up their own criminal operations, or disparate groups of armed and hardened individuals from descending into all out conflict over a disagreement, or even rivalries between groups that already existed before they got to that place?

More importantly, how do they keep the Kender out of the Sparkly Safe Space?

That's a point where I differ from most DMs.  It's not a utopia unless there are kender.  With just one kender I no longer need to drive the story - all the drama happens by itself and I can just kick back and watch the players go for half an hour at a time.

Dude, a kender in the Sparkly Safe Space would have the same effect as a male-to-female trans rapist being placed in a women's prison - utter evil chaos!

But but but?

Kender arent thieves! They "borrow" stuff totally innocently.

No... really. Thats how they work in the book and RPG. Keep in mind they are under the same curse that makes the tinker gnomes make unweidy contraptions and the gully dwarves stupid. Problem is Kender are so mary sue in the books that it makes them unlikable.

So Kender in this Radiant Citadel would fit if they actually put stuff back or people knew the gig and just eventually got their stuff back. PC kender on the other hand would probably be standing orders to kill on sight. heh...

Quote from: Omega on March 25, 2022, 07:36:31 PMThe only way to fight it is to not take the bait. Which is damnably hard.

There's probably 1000 fantasy RPGs on DriveThruRPG. At least 100 of them are probably good enough to play regularly, and most people could probably find 10 kickass ones in the pile.

Abandoning WotC/5e/D&D is only hard if we keep pretending that there is something special about what WotC offers. There isn't and the players who say they play 5e or nothing aren't worth keeping at your table.

Abandoning WotC is no harder than tossing Twatter or Farcebook.

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 04:41:00 AM
But but but?

Kender arent thieves! They "borrow" stuff totally innocently.

No... really. Thats how they work in the book and RPG. Keep in mind they are under the same curse that makes the tinker gnomes make unweidy contraptions and the gully dwarves stupid. Problem is Kender are so mary sue in the books that it makes them unlikable.

That was Classic Kender.

Revised New Hotness Kender, if I read the preview stuff correctly, are no longer kleptomaniacs and instead will magically and spontaneously manifest objects in their pockets, off a roll-random table and not out of your friends' pockets.

On the table I never saw an old-style Kender PC that didn't piss off the rest of the players.

I suppose it makes them a little more playable, but eh...there's a certain shine rubbed off it now that makes it uninteresting.

Quote from: Shasarak on March 25, 2022, 06:59:35 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2022, 08:00:16 AM
The Citadel is not some isolated community where everyone has been indoctrinated into giving up crime and undesirable behavior since birth, but an central hub in the middle of the Ethereal plane (which is pretty much a crossroads between planes of existence tied to everywhere) where adventurers from all over the place and all these bad behaviors already in their minds can come and relax. How do they screen "good" adventurers from grave robbers and backstabbers, or even bandits and other criminal elements that also travel all over the place? And how do they keep sneak thieves from going around picking everyone's pockets or setting up their own criminal operations, or disparate groups of armed and hardened individuals from descending into all out conflict over a disagreement, or even rivalries between groups that already existed before they got to that place?

You could have an aloof leader enforcing the goodness and safeness of the space.  If you go against her edicts then she could either banish you to a time out maze to think about what you have done or, if your crimes are sever enough, cancel you with her shadow that can cut like a blade.

I would call her Lady of Pain Safeness.

Damn, if only someone would've thought of that decades ago and incorporated it into a cool city full of intrigue and doors to everywhere in the multiverse, we wouldn't need this watered down lump of a trade hub.

Quote from: Thornhammer on March 26, 2022, 09:33:13 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 04:41:00 AM
But but but?

Kender arent thieves! They "borrow" stuff totally innocently.

No... really. Thats how they work in the book and RPG. Keep in mind they are under the same curse that makes the tinker gnomes make unweidy contraptions and the gully dwarves stupid. Problem is Kender are so mary sue in the books that it makes them unlikable.

That was Classic Kender.

Revised New Hotness Kender, if I read the preview stuff correctly, are no longer kleptomaniacs and instead will magically and spontaneously manifest objects in their pockets, off a roll-random table and not out of your friends' pockets.

On the table I never saw an old-style Kender PC that didn't piss off the rest of the players.

I suppose it makes them a little more playable, but eh...there's a certain shine rubbed off it now that makes it uninteresting.

ANY Kender are banned from my table. There is a certain kind of disruptive player who loves Kender, the ones who show up just to piss everyone off and then say "But I was just playing in character!"

So, no Kender.

Quote from: Thornhammer on March 26, 2022, 09:33:13 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2022, 04:41:00 AM
But but but?

Kender arent thieves! They "borrow" stuff totally innocently.

No... really. Thats how they work in the book and RPG. Keep in mind they are under the same curse that makes the tinker gnomes make unweidy contraptions and the gully dwarves stupid. Problem is Kender are so mary sue in the books that it makes them unlikable.

That was Classic Kender.

Revised New Hotness Kender, if I read the preview stuff correctly, are no longer kleptomaniacs and instead will magically and spontaneously manifest objects in their pockets, off a roll-random table and not out of your friends' pockets.

On the table I never saw an old-style Kender PC that didn't piss off the rest of the players.

I suppose it makes them a little more playable, but eh...there's a certain shine rubbed off it now that makes it uninteresting.

Hatred of Kender is a tie that binds us all. I do not know of a person who has played in a significant DL campaign who does not have a different version of the same story.

It is not so much the kleptomania issue as everything else bundled in.
They are totally innocent and never ever see it as stealing.
They are totally fearless. To the point that even demon lords with intense fear auras barely phase them for a moment and even freaking Takisis only cracks the shell. Raislin has been about the only one to ever do lasting damage and even that is not a full victory.

Like the gnomes I suspect part of the ire is the same as the 5e Kenku got. its a curse that is allways running and interferes with any ability to RP such characters. Your kender is allways going to want to filch stuff, your gnome is never going to be able to invent something useful that isnt massively overcomplicated. Your Kenku can never speak normally and can never have an original idea.

In the main books Kender are overall pretty mild. The side stories and anthologies, especially those by other authors, are all over the place.