Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 23, 2022, 09:11:54 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 23, 2022, 08:03:34 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:57:37 AM
And who gives a shit about the race or ethnicity of consultants? Being an "Asian" born and raised in the US doesn't make you an expert on ancient Asian cultures.

Yeah, but if you kick up a bit of a stink in today's climate you just might just get yourself a job as a 'cultural consultant' and get to make sub-par adventures for WoTC.

So win win...

Personally, the last thing I want is an Asian consultant if I wanted to make an Asian Themed martial arty game. I don't want to use their culture per se. I want to use our Westernized version. Not because it's better, but it's the shit I grew up with. A cultural exchange if you will.

Well, some of us prefer something based on actual research rather than made up garbage with an exotic coat of paint. I say this equally for all cultures that could be mined for inspiration. (If you want examples of writers getting Western cultures horribly mangled, then look no further than anything made by White Wolf.)

Perhaps, and the preference for something authentic can be valid. In fact, even when dealing with some made up BS I'd want it to at least be based on actual stuff from the actual culture, even if it's just fantasy version of it that isn't 100% accurate. But the thing to keep in mind about this fantasy stuff is that is that NONE of it is accurate, for ANY culture. None of the pseudo-European settings or material, with all their horned Viking helms that never existed in real life, is an accurate presentation of the cultures they're inspired from. All of it is made up based on multiple degrees of separation from myths and legend, and the real deal, mixed in with anachronism and stuff from different time periods and disparate European cultures.

But people like to pretend that any fantasy crap inspired by non-European cultures that isn't some historically authentic piece with accurate depictions of everything, that not even the people laying the criticism can produce, is some kind of affront to these cultures, like this isn't just made up fantasy nonsense serving as window dressing to play a game. It's some racialized fetishism that chooses to criticize and nitpick, and interpret any discrepancy or exaggeration as a racially insensitive insult or some sort of "exoticism". Like actual fantasy work from those cultures, like Chinese Kung Fu flicks, is an accurate depiction of these cultures, instead of a fantasy version of it.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 23, 2022, 09:11:54 AM
Well, some of us prefer something based on actual research rather than made up garbage with an exotic coat of paint. I say this equally for all cultures that could be mined for inspiration. (If you want examples of writers getting Western cultures horribly mangled, then look no further than anything made by White Wolf.)

That's great... No one said you couldn't or shouldn't by the way.

But I'm alright with a little 'coat of the exotic' as in Big Trouble in Little China or the 90s manga stuff. Being 'authentic' is a completely different approach and one that I care little about for my elf games.

But each to their own.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 09:42:16 AM
Like actual fantasy work from those cultures, like Chinese Kung Fu flicks, is an accurate depiction of these cultures, instead of a fantasy version of it.

It's quite interesting from a martial arts perspective. The early shit we see from Chinese cinema etc. was all made up of hyper-realistic garbage. It's about as authentic as a Rolex you'd buy from a street pedlar in a kasbah.

Having trained (and coached) it for years it bears no resemblance to any real combat whatsoever. So they are totally complicit in selling their own B.S. to the world. I do love the irony, however. 

Quote from: pawsplay on March 23, 2022, 12:53:29 AM

If by actual Asian consultants you mean a couple of Japanese guys made some comments on the Japanese-inspired stuff and Gygax didn't ignore everything they said. Even in the 80s, calling something "Oriental" immediately signaled you were going for some kind of anachronistic, exoticist motif. OA was full of bizarre decisions, like trying to make a bushi something other than a fighter, and inventing a kind of Asian wizard with a made-up pseudo-Chinese name.

Is that "exoticism" or something that an old-man and his friends that have no deep understanding of the cultures they're trying to invoke outside of pop-culture of the 80's? I'm Asian, and I can tell you right now, the ***only*** people offended by Oriental Adventures in the 80's, that were vocal about it were white people that had their own fetish for the Asian cultures that weren't "properly represented to their magical standard. It wasn't even a racial thing - back then. Of course today by leftist standards, what isn't racist?

Did it have a lot of silly stuff in there? YES! Gloriously YES. It's got more to do with Kurosawa films than actual Japanese Culture. It has more to do with Black-Belt Theater than actual Chinese Gung Fu. The bizarre decisions were obvious to anyone back then when one could count on 2 fingers how many Asian RPG's were floating around contextually.

The Kara-tur Boxset was even better (and more "culturally analog-accurate" despite playing fast and loose with time-periods) - written by Mike Pondsmith no less.

Edit: I should note - White Wolf did the *exact* same thing with their Kindred of the East. Including making up "Asian sounding" names for their content... and the people that were most offended were other white folks.

But this whole idea of a game writting by POC's who of course are all Alphabet Allies (otherwise they wouldn't have the job) - is not even honest, in that they do not represent THOSE cultures. They're LARPing that shit. Personally I would never work for such a project that had me on for "representation" - GTFO with that shit. (and it's actually happened)

Again - this is a game not aimed at me and *nothing* about it surprises me. Pet POC's of Wokesters looking for clout in TTRPG's is like the casting couch of old Hollywood. Same dynamic.

This "setting" sounds about as fun as making a Chia-pet out of a stranger's dog-turd.

Quote from: S'mon on March 23, 2022, 02:18:00 AM
A Tanelorn type place to defend can be a great setting element. I totally distrust WoTC at this point though. And obviously there needs to be conflict.

That's the benchmark for this concept. Solid call.

Quote from: tenbones on March 23, 2022, 10:43:04 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on March 23, 2022, 12:53:29 AM

If by actual Asian consultants you mean a couple of Japanese guys made some comments on the Japanese-inspired stuff and Gygax didn't ignore everything they said. Even in the 80s, calling something "Oriental" immediately signaled you were going for some kind of anachronistic, exoticist motif. OA was full of bizarre decisions, like trying to make a bushi something other than a fighter, and inventing a kind of Asian wizard with a made-up pseudo-Chinese name.

Is that "exoticism" or something that an old-man and his friends that have no deep understanding of the cultures they're trying to invoke outside of pop-culture of the 80's? I'm Asian, and I can tell you right now, the ***only*** people offended by Oriental Adventures in the 80's, that were vocal about it were white people that had their own fetish for the Asian cultures that weren't "properly represented to their magical standard. It wasn't even a racial thing - back then. Of course today by leftist standards, what isn't racist?

Did it have a lot of silly stuff in there? YES! Gloriously YES. It's got more to do with Kurosawa films than actual Japanese Culture. It has more to do with Black-Belt Theater than actual Chinese Gung Fu. The bizarre decisions were obvious to anyone back then when one could count on 2 fingers how many Asian RPG's were floating around contextually.

The Kara-tur Boxset was even better (and more "culturally analog-accurate" despite playing fast and loose with time-periods) - written by Mike Pondsmith no less.

Edit: I should note - White Wolf did the *exact* same thing with their Kindred of the East. Including making up "Asian sounding" names for their content... and the people that were most offended were other white folks.

But this whole idea of a game writting by POC's who of course are all Alphabet Allies (otherwise they wouldn't have the job) - is not even honest, in that they do not represent THOSE cultures. They're LARPing that shit. Personally I would never work for such a project that had me on for "representation" - GTFO with that shit. (and it's actually happened)

Again - this is a game not aimed at me and *nothing* about it surprises me. Pet POC's of Wokesters looking for clout in TTRPG's is like the casting couch of old Hollywood. Same dynamic.

This "setting" sounds about as fun as making a Chia-pet out of a stranger's dog-turd.

People who obsess over cultural appropriation are rarely members or even adjacent to said culture.

 Is the actual book out for people to see what is really in it?  Does it have a gay prom?  I just need to know if there will be a gay prom.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:27:35 PM
gay prom.

Sorry, but no gay prom = a no buy from me. So, they had better put one in.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 23, 2022, 09:44:35 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 23, 2022, 09:11:54 AM
Well, some of us prefer something based on actual research rather than made up garbage with an exotic coat of paint. I say this equally for all cultures that could be mined for inspiration. (If you want examples of writers getting Western cultures horribly mangled, then look no further than anything made by White Wolf.)

That's great... No one said you couldn't or shouldn't by the way.

But I'm alright with a little 'coat of the exotic' as in Big Trouble in Little China or the 90s manga stuff. Being 'authentic' is a completely different approach and one that I care little about for my elf games.

But each to their own.

Okay then.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 23, 2022, 01:51:25 PM
Okay then.

ok

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 23, 2022, 09:52:01 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 09:42:16 AM
Like actual fantasy work from those cultures, like Chinese Kung Fu flicks, is an accurate depiction of these cultures, instead of a fantasy version of it.

It's quite interesting from a martial arts perspective. The early shit we see from Chinese cinema etc. was all made up of hyper-realistic garbage. It's about as authentic as a Rolex you'd buy from a street pedlar in a kasbah.

Having trained (and coached) it for years it bears no resemblance to any real combat whatsoever. So they are totally complicit in selling their own B.S. to the world. I do love the irony, however. 

This, exactly this. I mean...It's been years since I did done kempo but the Chinese cinema is completely complicit.

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:27:35 PM
Is the actual book out for people to see what is really in it?  Does it have a gay prom?  I just need to know if there will be a gay prom.

No, the book doesn't come out until June 21st. If you're curious about what is in the real book, I'll probably at least look over it in the game store. I might post about Candlekeep Mysteries here in a future thread.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 23, 2022, 02:14:48 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 23, 2022, 09:52:01 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 09:42:16 AM
Like actual fantasy work from those cultures, like Chinese Kung Fu flicks, is an accurate depiction of these cultures, instead of a fantasy version of it.

It's quite interesting from a martial arts perspective. The early shit we see from Chinese cinema etc. was all made up of hyper-realistic garbage. It's about as authentic as a Rolex you'd buy from a street pedlar in a kasbah.

Having trained (and coached) it for years it bears no resemblance to any real combat whatsoever. So they are totally complicit in selling their own B.S. to the world. I do love the irony, however. 

This, exactly this. I mean...It's been years since I did done kempo but the Chinese cinema is completely complicit.

Absolutely man! And they were only too happy to take the cash, and still are to this very day. And keeping that up with that Hollywood myth rakes in the cash.

Quote from: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 02:17:22 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 12:27:35 PM
Is the actual book out for people to see what is really in it?  Does it have a gay prom?  I just need to know if there will be a gay prom.

No, the book doesn't come out until June 21st. If you're curious about what is in the real book, I'll probably at least look over it in the game store. I might post about Candlekeep Mysteries here in a future thread.

  I always try to give a book a IRL chance, so once its out I may not need it (though it is appreciated) regarding the looking through.  I do wish FLGS could make more bank from products outside the big boys though, it would allow for a lot more page throughs than current reality does.   At least it is WOTC, so it will be in said FLGS at release.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 23, 2022, 07:53:31 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 01:02:05 AM
Not according to the people who worked there.

The hilarious thing about the whole Oriental adventures debacle was that the creators even apologized in the intro saying that they were basically not trying to make an accurate game per see, and even apologized if they got stuff wrong and that it was created for gaming purposes. I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the book in front of me.

Then WoTC cried because a few Canadian asians got bent out of shape.

This, on the whole backdrop of it being nearly 40 years old. What a bunch of dweebs.

1: er... no they did not apologize in the intro. Gygax, Cook and Breault are all gushing about the choices they made and why they made them. Why they modled primarily on Japan, with China a close second and anything else they thought would be interesting to apply. They explain how they approached these choices and what things inspired them, or were used as references.

2: WOTC is a bunch of racists baiting the very people they claim to represent.

3: 40 years old and written by far better people with an honest interest in the subjects than WOTC will ever know.