Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2022, 11:49:36 PM

I never got around it. But now I remember they had stuff like tea ceremonies and things like that in that setting. That would've been different, though, cuz that was more like an added cultural touch. But at the end of the day you were still playing a badass samurai ready to bust out his sword with lightning reflexes if enemies showed up to interrupt his tea.

Actually you could be challeneged to a contest of skills like who is the better dancer (That came up in one session I GMed) or who is the better cook, or who serves tea the best. OA was great for little things like that where combat was not the focus. WOTC could have learned from it. Instead they slapped a WACIST! label on it. You know. The setting TSR got actual asian cunsultants to look over. Yeah.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 22, 2022, 11:10:46 PM

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 22, 2022, 10:13:21 PM
What drew me to alternative campaign settings like Spelljammer and Planescape is their uniqueness, creativity, thematic elements, and flexibility.  I never once had to wonder whether or not the author had the 7 pieces of flair in their bio because their works were far more important than their virtue signals.  The latest book from WotC "Strixhaven" was extremely lazy, and full of poor game design and weak narrative elements.  There's actually very little worth using, and I don't recommend buying it.  In fact, very few of these newer products can even compare to much of the 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D supplements that I've used and ported over to every edition since.  What really annoys me about this is there are great, imaginative settings and people not getting published because of this garbage.  So instead we get this tokenism version of Planescape. 

When newer DMs ask me how to create a campaign I always tell them, "Get the Silver Edition 'Return to the Keep on the Borderlands' and convert it.  As you do you will have to make choices what to keep and what to change or throw away.  Then it becomes yours."  I won't be tell them to pick up 'Horde of the Dragon Queen' and just run that.  It's garbage, and so is this.  D&D is supposed to be for everyone, and these narcissists are making everything about themselves.

Hard agree with everything except what I put in bold. Ran a campaign well over a year doing to HotDQ exactly what you described with Keep. Made the cultists actually cult-like, cruel, and pure evil. Zoomed way in on the elements. Years later still my most talked about campaign. Out of the box tho...you're absolutely right.

Same. I have spoken before on DMing the two modules and they are actually alot of fun if you ignore certain elements and outright railroading and just let the players go at it however.

Interestingly Hoard is not a WOTC book. It was outsourced to Kobold and some of the problems with it were because the system changed during the creation of the modules.

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 12:44:38 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2022, 11:49:36 PM

I never got around it. But now I remember they had stuff like tea ceremonies and things like that in that setting. That would've been different, though, cuz that was more like an added cultural touch. But at the end of the day you were still playing a badass samurai ready to bust out his sword with lightning reflexes if enemies showed up to interrupt his tea.

Actually you could be challeneged to a contest of skills like who is the better dancer (That came up in one session I GMed) or who is the better cook, or who serves tea the best. OA was great for little things like that where combat was not the focus. WOTC could have learned from it. Instead they slapped a WACIST! label on it. You know. The setting TSR got actual asian cunsultants to look over. Yeah.

If by actual Asian consultants you mean a couple of Japanese guys made some comments on the Japanese-inspired stuff and Gygax didn't ignore everything they said. Even in the 80s, calling something "Oriental" immediately signaled you were going for some kind of anachronistic, exoticist motif. OA was full of bizarre decisions, like trying to make a bushi something other than a fighter, and inventing a kind of Asian wizard with a made-up pseudo-Chinese name.

Not according to the people who worked there.

A Tanelorn type place to defend can be a great setting element. I totally distrust WoTC at this point though. And obviously there needs to be conflict.

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 12:41:19 AM

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 22, 2022, 10:28:08 PM
Funny you mentioned that...

https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/12/22225381/dungeons-dragons-candlekeep-mysteries-wheelchair-accessible

From the article:

QuoteKretchmer said., "As an ambulatory wheelchair user, I wanted people to have the opportunity to see themselves represented in-game."

Edit: like I said before, these narcissists make it all about themselves.

Even funnier is theres no such thing in the actual book far as I ever saw. It was complete baiting and false virtue signalling. Totally disgusting.

Yeah - as Omega said, the article is quite misleading. Pundit notably read the article and claimed that now Sara Thompson's homebrew "combat wheelchair" was official and all adventures were now wheelchair accessible. But there's no such thing in the actual Candlekeep Mysteries adventure.

I actually like Jennifer Kretchmer's adventure, "The Canopic Being", but it's nonsensical to sell it on accessibility. There is an Egyptian style tomb inside it, which does have ramps as many Egyptian tombs did. However, the entrance is down a ladder, and there is also a pit to navigate. It has a mystery at its core about how to permanently kill the mummy lord, but it has traps and monster-fighting like most dungeons.

In general, all the Candlekeep adventures are still based around monster-fighting as usual for D&D. There is generally a core mystery to be solved, but there is still plenty of dungeons and action.

Yes, the baiting puts a stain on what would have otherwise been a fairly standard collection of advantures. At least one was a bit nonsenseical. But past that nothing nothing bothersome.

Marketing baiting is a serious problem with WOTC and has been one for a long time now. Only in recent years its gotten worse. Pronces of the Apocalypse was touted as "Alice in Wonderland" which was a complete and total lie. Candlekeep, and odds are high that Radiant Citadel will be too. Especially 4e D&D Gamma World, incessantly touted as ha-ha funny slapstick. And the game is just short of anything but. A few throw-away gag items does not a comedy setting make. Especially when the book itself has nearly zero humor elements.

This is why whenever they make statements like this for some product I can just about bet 100% odds that its baiting. They know people will raise hell and give them free advertising.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 22, 2022, 11:10:46 PM

Quote from: AtomicPope on March 22, 2022, 10:13:21 PM
What drew me to alternative campaign settings like Spelljammer and Planescape is their uniqueness, creativity, thematic elements, and flexibility.  I never once had to wonder whether or not the author had the 7 pieces of flair in their bio because their works were far more important than their virtue signals.  The latest book from WotC "Strixhaven" was extremely lazy, and full of poor game design and weak narrative elements.  There's actually very little worth using, and I don't recommend buying it.  In fact, very few of these newer products can even compare to much of the 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D supplements that I've used and ported over to every edition since.  What really annoys me about this is there are great, imaginative settings and people not getting published because of this garbage.  So instead we get this tokenism version of Planescape. 

When newer DMs ask me how to create a campaign I always tell them, "Get the Silver Edition 'Return to the Keep on the Borderlands' and convert it.  As you do you will have to make choices what to keep and what to change or throw away.  Then it becomes yours."  I won't be tell them to pick up 'Horde of the Dragon Queen' and just run that.  It's garbage, and so is this.  D&D is supposed to be for everyone, and these narcissists are making everything about themselves.

Hard agree with everything except what I put in bold. Ran a campaign well over a year doing to HotDQ exactly what you described with Keep. Made the cultists actually cult-like, cruel, and pure evil. Zoomed way in on the elements. Years later still my most talked about campaign. Out of the box tho...you're absolutely right.

I had to change the entire beginning.  The blue dragon is just one giant hamfist dropped on the players.  It made more sense to me that the PCs could see the dragon pass overhead and then they must make a Will Save or be frightened.  Any frightened PCs can't approach the keep as the dragon wrecks the defenses for the kobolds.  Creating a story that matches the mechanics is very easy and the PCs shouldn't be facing a bored dragon so soon.   The dragon leaves once it wipes out the guards with its breath.  No need for a deus ex machina. 

You're right about the cultists.  The way they're implemented needs reworking. Cyanwrath the Merciful should be executing people in brutal fashion with no chance of saving them. Overall, the railroads, deus ex machina, cultist implementation, new DMs don't know how to fix that.  I changed stuff because I bought it, but I don't recommend others buy it.  "Rise of Tiamat" is much better and worth buying.

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 03:51:50 AM
Yes, the baiting puts a stain on what would have otherwise been a fairly standard collection of advantures. At least one was a bit nonsenseical. But past that nothing nothing bothersome.

Marketing baiting is a serious problem with WOTC and has been one for a long time now. Only in recent years its gotten worse. Pronces of the Apocalypse was touted as "Alice in Wonderland" which was a complete and total lie. Candlekeep, and odds are high that Radiant Citadel will be too. Especially 4e D&D Gamma World, incessantly touted as ha-ha funny slapstick. And the game is just short of anything but. A few throw-away gag items does not a comedy setting make. Especially when the book itself has nearly zero humor elements.

This is why whenever they make statements like this for some product I can just about bet 100% odds that its baiting. They know people will raise hell and give them free advertising.

You're thinking of "Out of the Abyss", and that is nothing like "Alice in Wonderland" either.  There's nothing Alice-esque about OotA.  It seems like WotC gave a synopsis and the game journalists just ran with those talking points. TBH, it's closer to Call of Cthulhu with the Madness rules (faezrun sp?).

I really love the funny Gamma World remake.  It's perfect for one-shot adventures or just a summer game when the kids are out of school.  I ran a few funny campaigns over the summers to remember.

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 12:41:19 AM
Even funnier is theres no such thing in the actual book far as I ever saw. It was complete baiting and false virtue signalling. Totally disgusting.

Oh Damn... What am I going to tell little Timmy now? He's got no legs, or arms and uses a voicebox. We just generated a character for him last night, one in a wheelchair, just for that book.

But who will represent him now? 

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 01:02:05 AM
Not according to the people who worked there.

The hilarious thing about the whole Oriental adventures debacle was that the creators even apologized in the intro saying that they were basically not trying to make an accurate game per see, and even apologized if they got stuff wrong and that it was created for gaming purposes. I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the book in front of me.

Then WoTC cried because a few Canadian asians got bent out of shape.

This, on the whole backdrop of it being nearly 40 years old. What a bunch of dweebs.

Quote from: pawsplay on March 23, 2022, 12:53:29 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 23, 2022, 12:44:38 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2022, 11:49:36 PM

I never got around it. But now I remember they had stuff like tea ceremonies and things like that in that setting. That would've been different, though, cuz that was more like an added cultural touch. But at the end of the day you were still playing a badass samurai ready to bust out his sword with lightning reflexes if enemies showed up to interrupt his tea.

Actually you could be challeneged to a contest of skills like who is the better dancer (That came up in one session I GMed) or who is the better cook, or who serves tea the best. OA was great for little things like that where combat was not the focus. WOTC could have learned from it. Instead they slapped a WACIST! label on it. You know. The setting TSR got actual asian cunsultants to look over. Yeah.

If by actual Asian consultants you mean a couple of Japanese guys made some comments on the Japanese-inspired stuff and Gygax didn't ignore everything they said. Even in the 80s, calling something "Oriental" immediately signaled you were going for some kind of anachronistic, exoticist motif. OA was full of bizarre decisions, like trying to make a bushi something other than a fighter, and inventing a kind of Asian wizard with a made-up pseudo-Chinese name.

Actually, I grew up in the 80s, and the idea that "Oriental" was somehow a bad word (for reasons I've yet to understand) didn't really sink in till the 90s, and even then people would make jokes about it, cuz they didn't understand what made it a bad word either. But nice revisionist history there.

And who gives a shit about the race or ethnicity of consultants? Being an "Asian" born and raised in the US doesn't make you an expert on ancient Asian cultures. This is the sort of racist shit that looking at everything thought this racialized lens brings in, where people are just assumed to have certain knowledge by virtue of their race. Like I should just go ask a black guy for tips on how to play basketball, cuz obviously all blacks should know, since there's so many black people in the NBA.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:57:37 AM
And who gives a shit about the race or ethnicity of consultants? Being an "Asian" born and raised in the US doesn't make you an expert on ancient Asian cultures.

Yeah, but if you kick up a bit of a stink in today's climate you just might just get yourself a job as a 'cultural consultant' and get to make sub-par adventures for WoTC.

So win win...

Personally, the last thing I want is an Asian consultant if I wanted to make an Asian Themed martial arty game. I don't want to use their culture per se. I want to use our Westernized version. Not because it's better, but it's the shit I grew up with. A cultural exchange if you will.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 22, 2022, 09:56:10 PM
Now I wanna see this happen. And this place is located right in the Ethereal Plane, so there's gotta be a way to open up a gate to the Elemental Planes and funnel a bunch of Fire Elementals in there and set the place ablaze.

I can already see the horde busting into the place with a witch in toe to start the necessary rituals to open up the gates while their warriors start ransacking the place to the screams of the confused masses in the middle of their baking contests armed with nothing but kitchen knives to defend themselves.

It would be glorious! 

Wait one fucking second. Did you say this place was in the Ethereal Plane?

Ethereal filchers and creepers. Phase spiders. Hags. You don't need to open a portal to the Plane of Fire.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on March 23, 2022, 08:03:34 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 23, 2022, 07:57:37 AM
And who gives a shit about the race or ethnicity of consultants? Being an "Asian" born and raised in the US doesn't make you an expert on ancient Asian cultures.

Yeah, but if you kick up a bit of a stink in today's climate you just might just get yourself a job as a 'cultural consultant' and get to make sub-par adventures for WoTC.

So win win...

Personally, the last thing I want is an Asian consultant if I wanted to make an Asian Themed martial arty game. I don't want to use their culture per se. I want to use our Westernized version. Not because it's better, but it's the shit I grew up with. A cultural exchange if you will.

Well, some of us prefer something based on actual research rather than made up garbage with an exotic coat of paint. I say this equally for all cultures that could be mined for inspiration. (If you want examples of writers getting Western cultures horribly mangled, then look no further than anything made by White Wolf.)