TheRPGSite

From here (http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6207&p=25324#p25324).

QuoteHi everyone,

I really like gaming, game stores, and playing games, and it is for these reasons that I traditionally do not discuss the business side of the industry in public forums. In the 3E era I kept my head down and just focused on publishing good product. This worked out pretty well, and now many gamers perceive Goodman Games as one of the more successful RPG publishers. All this happened without "Joseph Goodman" being well known. You know who runs Malhavoc and Green Ronin and Necromancer and Paizo, but I routinely encounter fans who have no idea why Goodman Games has "Goodman" in the name. That's how I like it.

Now, eight years into the business, I feel compelled to write my first personal note on the business side of things. Welcome to "Joe Goodman's first commentary on the business." I write this primarily to portray what I consider to be the facts of certain elements of the business, particularly the success of fourth edition D&D.

First, a little background. I own Goodman Games but don't run it full time. Goodman Games has an outstanding staff who do most of the product development, run the tournaments, handle the shipping, etc. I personally have a full-time "business job" at a Fortune 50 company, where I manage a large staff running a billion-dollar division. Goodman Games is an extremely enjoyable outlet for my love of the hobby, but it's not how I pay my bills. I do it for fun because it is something I absolutely love to do. I wrote my first RPG at the age of 10, self-published my first work at 17, had my first professional contract at 18, had my first staff writer job at 21, and have been involved professionally in the gaming industry ever since.

I believe brick-and-mortar hobby stores are the lifeblood of the industry. This is for a couple of reasons. First, it is these stores that introduced me to the hobby, along with many other gamers. Sword of the Phoenix in Atlanta, GA was the store I shopped at for years. It was there that I discovered not just D&D, but also Ral Partha and Grenadier miniatures, Warhammer 40,000, Space Hulk, and many of the other games that I played obsessively as a child. Hobby stores are the single best way to introduce new gamers to the hobby. No online experience can match this.

Second, hobby game stores serve as community centers. It's not even "the best" game stores that do this; even the ones without gaming space have bulletin boards, well-connected staff, and affiliations with local cons. When you move to a new city or discover a new game, the hobby store is the best place to find new friends to play it with.

Third, speaking as a businessman, hobby stores are by far the largest market for games. The online market (including print, PDF, and POD) simply can't compete. As Goodman Games has matured into one of the standard stocklist items for typical game stores, I have seen my overall sales base grow steadily while online sales have dwindled. Online sales now make up a tiny fraction of Goodman Games sales. Yes, PDF sales are the fastest-growing sales segment, that is true, but the hobby market is HUGE compared to the online market - orders of magnitude larger. If you support retailers, they will support you, and that effort pays off tenfold. (There's a reason Wizards could pull their entire PDF backlist without blinking an eye. Those of us with good retail distribution are among the few observers to understand this.)

It is because of this belief in game stores, and my own personal retail experience, that I focus many of my product development and marketing efforts on strategies that benefit not just Goodman Games, but also retailers. These strategies have included Free RPG Day, a first of its kind in this industry; my annual May sale, which no other RPG publisher does; and the DCC spinner racks which I supplied to hundreds of retailers a couple years ago. These are the promotions consumers can see; there are many others, behind the scenes, that retailers have seen.

I mention these retailer promotions because they are feedback channels that don't exist for other publishers. There isn't another third-party RPG publisher that has shipped spinner racks to several hundred stores and gotten feedback on how it affected sales. There isn't another third-party RPG publisher who runs an annual sale through distributors. And so on. As a result of these efforts, I get feedback through a number of different channels. Sales numbers are a form of feedback. Personal conversations with retailers are a form of feedback. But direct retailer feedback is a significant feedback channel for me, and one that I believe is much more significant for me than for most other third-party publishers. Those of you who follow these forums have seen my Game Store Review Thread, and have a sense of just how frequently I visit stores.

It is based on these feedback channels that I evaluate the industry. These are my "senses," if you will. Goodman Games is not an imprint that publishes through other companies, multiple steps removed from distributors and even further removed from retailers. Goodman Games is not a company founded on online and subscription-based revenue streams. Goodman Games is a different sort of company from the rest. Goodman Games -- and Joseph Goodman -- are about as close as you can get to the pulse of retailers, within the third-party RPG publisher segment.

And now to the question at hand: How is 4E doing?

4E is doing well, very well. I'll define the parameters of "well" below. First, let's dispel a couple myths.

Myth #1: "We can publish the same book in 4E that we did for 3E, and use that as a yardstick for sales." Simply not true. Log on to dndinsider.com and you'll understand why. You have to understand Wizards' digital initiative (and its many ramifications) if you intend to publish 4E books at all. Sales of many categories have changed based on what the digital initiative provides customers free of charge. Sales of character record books in 3E and 4E are apples and oranges, not suitable for comparison, and there are other categories affected as well.

Myth #2: "Distributors do not support 4E." Simply not true. The pre-orders on Dungeon Crawl Classics #53, #54, and #55 were larger than anything I had seen in years. More recently, Level Up #1 sold out its first wave of distribution sales in under 48 hours, then sold out the second wave of distributor restocks a week later, and distributors continue to place huge restocks. There is significant distributor support for 4E.

Myth #3: "Retailers do not support 4E." Simply not true. This sort of claim is where the debate breaks down, because one gamer can say, "4E isn't selling at my local store," and it's hard to refute that. Store-by-store experiences do indeed vary widely, and the truth is that there are many individual stores where 4E isn't selling well. It is these stores, and gamers who trumpet these stores, that have led to many claims regarding 4E not selling. What can I say to refute that? I will rely on my credibility regarding direct retailer feedback.

I've personally visited 47 different game stores so far this year. Yes, 47 -- see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5197 for some details. Next time someone tells you "4E isn't selling at my local store," remind him that he's discussing 1 store. Aside from those personal visits, I've spoken on the phone with probably 100+ other game stores, gotten direct feedback via a Dungeon Crawl Classics sale (see list of stores in the download at http://www.goodman-games.com/dcc-sale-09.html ), sponsored another year of Free RPG Day (see list of stores at http://www.freerpgday.com/stores.htm ), and run two Worldwide D&D Game Day promotions involving every store participating in Worldwide D&D Game Day (see http://www.goodman-games.com/WWDDD5-23.html and http://www.goodman-games.com/WWDDD3-21.html ). There are hundreds of stores that participate in each of these events individually, probably thousands overall if you compile the various lists. Naysayers who post claims of "4E doesn't sell well at my local store" seem to omit these massive lists of supporting retailers.

Back to myth #3: "retailers do not support 4E." Simply not true. Why not? Because Joe Goodman says so, and I know more about game stores than you do. Show me someone with the same list of credentials regarding direct retailer feedback, and I'll back down. Until then, the statement stands.

With these myths dispelled, let's discuss the meaning of "doing well." First, some historical context. Before I founded Goodman Games, I wrote a book on the history of this industry. It was something of a research project that turned into a book. I was planning to start a game company, and I wanted to do it right, so I researched the history of the three primary publishing categories. Most of the gaming history that gets published these days is product-focused, with an emphasis on creators, artists, inspirations, and the like. My research was focused on the business strategies of the companies involved. For example, in the early 1980's when Games Workshop got the license to produce official D&D miniatures from TSR, they did absolutely nothing with it and effectively used it to shut down their competitors so they could launch their own fantasy miniatures line. Has anybody else here studied the retail locator lists in White Dwarf magazine over the 1980's? Cross-reference the independent hobby shops listed in the early 1980's against the addresses of the GW company shops listed in the late 1980's. It's fascinating; you can see the pattern of how GW opened shops in close proximity to their hobby accounts. If you ever want to learn actual TSR sales figures, do your homework and find all the lawsuits against them. It's all public record, and I've read it all. Dave Arneson sued TSR three times for unpaid royalties, and each of the court filings lists TSR sales figures for the years where he challenged.

All of this research (which I ultimately decided not to publish) forms the historical context for my opinion of D&D 4E. Dungeons & Dragons has had two, and exactly two, peak years. The first was 1982. The second was 2001. The mid-80's were a declining period, and the 90's were a trough. From a business perspective, the creatively-much-admired 1970's were really a low point for D&D. Fast growth, but very low sales volume compared to the years to come.

From 1974 to 2009 is 35 years. Or, roughly two generations. D&D has roughly one peak every generation. 35 years total, 2 of which were great, and the other 33 of which were "okay."

But what do people compare 4E to?

One of the two best sales years in the past 35 years of D&D. Not the other 33 years.

Is 4E doing as well as 3E sales in 2001? Definitely not. That was the high point in a generation.

Is 4E doing as well as D&D sales in the times of 1974-1981? 1983 through 2000? And approximately 2002 through 2008?

Yes.

So, is 4E doing well?

Yes. In the 35 year history of D&D, we stand at a high point. D&D is selling more copies, reaching more customers, supporting more game stores, than it has during most of its history.

Will 4E do as well as 3E?

Maybe. But frankly, who cares? That's like asking if 4E will do as well as AD&D did in 1982. Or as well as 2nd edition did. Or as well as the little white box. Anybody who's ever had a job where they're accountable for sales numbers -- and I've had a lot of these -- knows that there are some marketing events that simply hit the ball out of the park. 3E was one of those, and it will be hard to top for a generation to come. It was a once-in-a-generation feat, just as D&D sales in 1982 were a once-in-a-generation feat. For twenty years following 1982, D&D sales never recovered their peak. Twenty years. From the vantage point of 1983, was D&D dying? In 1983, you could have said that. The twenty-year decline was starting. But D&D went on to have another peak in 2001.

From where we stand now, at the very beginning of 4E, I see a long, strong run ahead of us. Just as in 1982, it may be another twenty years before the generational peak of 3E is reached again. Or it could be next year, when the economy improves. Just as in 1983, who can say?

In the meantime, there are thousands of game stores clamoring for 4E product. And I'll be here publishing it for a long time.

That's all from Joseph Goodman, signing off from business-oriented posts for another eight years.

My own comments are over on my blog. Your comments can go here, or there.

RPGPundit

500 posts or bust!
Go!

Does it really freaking matter that 4E is reaching a huge market?

What matters to me is that it cost me access to the PDFs of the GAZ series. It will be interesting to see what the HS kids are playing in the halls at lunch. 2 years ago, it was mostly 3.5 and RIFTS.

In general, the question shouldn't be "is it selling well" but "is it selling as well as Hasbro expects?" Because, if it isn't, Hasbro, a company with no love for even "acceptable performance" is likely to shove it aside for the next big thing. And if it makes a profit, it keeps going.

Not like Mayfair Games, which was a rich boy's hobby.

I suspect 4E probably surpassed the total sales of Classic Traveller core rules (about 250K units since 1977).

D&D claimed two million players back in 1990 or so. If, as goodman claims, the numbers have risen, the average MMO is on par with the D&D crowd.

Translation (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4835069-post42.html)

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;309516Translation (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4835069-post42.html)

UGh.  I was going to make a sarcastic reply to Aos'  post, kicking off the 500 with a mocking "Blah blah, I obviously know more than someone with actual business experience because I post on a message board and went to a shop once etc. etc."

And then you go and post a link to someone who does far more and and with a straight face.

Some days I weep for humanity.

Quote from: Aos;309508500 posts or bust!
Go!

Yep.

More resentment, more acrimony, more nonsense. Prescience isn't required to divine how this one will play out.

Quote from: J Arcane;309517UGh.  I was going to make a sarcastic reply to Aos'  post, kicking off the 500 with a mocking "Blah blah, I obviously know more than someone with actual business experience because I post on a message board and went to a shop once etc. etc."

And then you go and post a link to someone who does far more and and with a straight face.

Some days I weep for humanity.

Did anyone actually save the guy's parody before it got deleted by the mods? I would have liked reading it.

RPGPundit

I am not feeling more informed after reading it. Someone, please distill this to three or four bullet points that make sense. (No sarcasm intended; since JG's products are selling, he must know something useful. I am just too tired in a post-game session way to decipher him.)

4e moves a lot of product, especially through FLGS

4e launch shall never be compared to 3e launch in 2001, because it was a one-of-kind situation, that can´t be reasonably expected to happen again before 20 years have elapsed.

Aha. Thanks.

Quote from: RPGPundit;309519Did anyone actually save the guy's parody before it got deleted by the mods? I would have liked reading it.

RPGPundit

I would have as well. I find it significant that the ENworld Mods deleted the post so quickly.

Why does he refer to himself in third person all the time?

FASERIP wants to know.

4e is simple to understand, simple to play and has fun combat. As for role-playing, it doesn't have the best support for that, but people who want it can have it.

Most RPG sessions, I've noticed, aren't epic, dramatic campaigns with detailed, intricat storylines. They're 'Hey guys, let's kill some orcs!' action-comedy.

And most RPG players are going to be casual players, not hard-core. Why? Because most people who play most anything are casual players.
So they want something they can pick up and understand in an afternoon. And 4e gives that to them.

Quote from: jeff37923;309536I would have as well. I find it significant that the ENworld Mods deleted the post so quickly.

Yes, conspiracy theories about ENWorld's moderators' ulterior motives will certainly elevate this thread!

-O

' does not allow for , so it is .'

' can actually do , if you , so .'

x512

There, now that that's done with, can we have a sane and rational conversation? Or at least something that comes somewhere in the stellar vicinity of one?

Quote from: obryn;309548Yes, conspiracy theories about ENWorld's moderators' ulterior motives will certainly elevate this thread!

-O

Could you tell me what conspiracy theory I'm advocating then, please?

Otherwise, just shut the fuck up.

QuoteFrom 1974 to 2009 is 35 years. Or, roughly two generations. D&D has roughly one peak every generation. 35 years total, 2 of which were great, and the other 33 of which were "okay."

How did Mr. Goodman decide that 35 years is roughly two generations?  Two generations of what?  And the assertion "D&D has roughly one peak every generation" seems like an awful big conclusion to draw from the available data pool of only 2 generations, whatever his definition of a generation is.

I don't doubt that Mr. Goodman has done his research or that he knows a helluva lot more about the game business than I do.  But his argument as presented looks a little like he's offering a special pleading on behalf of 4e.  Maybe if he had offered this argument well in advance of 4e apparently not selling as well as 3e it would look more credible.  I dunno.

Twenty years is the accepted scientific count for a human biological generation - Enough time for the average human to grow to biological adulthood.

Given that there's no other data pool, I fail to see how he could have gathered a larger sample - Although I do agree the data support is tenuous.

...I may not be reading this right, but are you asking him to offer reasons why 4e is selling well, in advance of any need to do so?

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;309556...I may not be reading this right, but are you asking him to offer reasons why 4e is selling well, in advance of any need to do so?

My thought is that with his generational theory he should have been able to predict prior to 4e's publication that it would not sell as well as 3e did in 2001.

In which case, people would say "Obviously 4e isn't selling well - They're already making excuses".

No matter what you do, there will be yelling, screaming and accusations. (Not talking about you, just people in general)

My version of what he said:

4e is doing very well and any attempts to claim its not are based on an analomous data point from the 3E launch, based on real numbers that the rest of us are too lazy to actually look up.

...Well, I'm certainly too lazy to look them up.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;309558In which case, people would say "Obviously 4e isn't selling well - They're already making excuses".

Fair enough.  That of course brings us around to the entire problem here.  Wizards controls the most relevant data and seems to be in no mood to share.  And Joseph Goodman's book remains unpublished.

Also, while we're discussing Mr. Goodman's argument, isn't he giving 4e a pass considering the level of changes made to the system?  Perhaps I'm being unfair here, but I feel like anything less than a 1982/2001 home run is a fail for WotC, considering all the changes they made, all the sacred cows they killed in the name of progress.

Everyone, give a big hello to my own personal spammer I seemed to have picked up in the last ten minutes.

Fire optional.

Quote from: jeff37923;309550Could you tell me what conspiracy theory I'm advocating then, please?

The one that makes long-term ENworld members wonder if it's become the Gamespot of the RPG world?

Quote from: Joe GoodmanBack to myth #3: "retailers do not support 4E." Simply not true. Why not? Because Joe Goodman says so, and I know more about game stores than you do. Show me someone with the same list of credentials regarding direct retailer feedback, and I'll back down. Until then, the statement stands.

EDIT: a bit hasty in condemnation.  I'll read it again.

Quote from: RPGPundit;309519Did anyone actually save the guy's parody before it got deleted by the mods? I would have liked reading it.

Really? Crap. And I had half a mind to copy and paste it.

It was pretty snarky, I guess I should have seen it coming.

Quote from: jeff37923;309550Could you tell me what conspiracy theory I'm advocating then, please?

Otherwise, just shut the fuck up.

I dunno, why don't you share why it's "significant"?  Or are you happy with vague innuendoes?  I mean, few things work better to shield you from your own asshattery!

Otherwise, just ... well, you know how that one ends!

-O

Quote from: Settembrini;3095304e moves a lot of product, especially through FLGS

4e launch shall never be compared to 3e launch in 2001, because it was a one-of-kind situation, that can´t be reasonably expected to happen again before 20 years have elapsed.

you missed a couple:

* I know the details of 4E sales because I'm a 3rd party publisher
* the PDF market is meaningless.

Quote from: FASERIP;309540Why does he refer to himself in third person all the time?

FASERIP wants to know.

Koltar says thats not so strange.

- That guy Ed C.

Quote from: jrients;309561Fair enough.  That of course brings us around to the entire problem here.  Wizards controls the most relevant data and seems to be in no mood to share.  And Joseph Goodman's book remains unpublished.

Also, while we're discussing Mr. Goodman's argument, isn't he giving 4e a pass considering the level of changes made to the system?  Perhaps I'm being unfair here, but I feel like anything less than a 1982/2001 home run is a fail for WotC, considering all the changes they made, all the sacred cows they killed in the name of progress.

I concur to the fullest.

Quote from: aramis;309574you missed a couple:

* I know the details of 4E sales because I'm a 3rd party publisher
* the PDF market is meaningless.

Yeah, I missed those. Not while reading, but while re-telling.

Waht I still don´t get about the meaningless pdf market: If it´s meaningless, why the activity on WotCs side?

The generational theory isn't something Mr. Goodman invented, it's a marketing concept he applied to the data. Malleus Arianorum concurred with his interpolation approvingly in the third person past tense.

Quote from: Settembrini;309578What I still don´t get about the meaningless pdf market: If it´s meaningless, why the activity on WotCs side?

We're talking about a company that obviously doesn't care to deliver quality in any (remote) sense unless it pays off for them, big time. Recall the 4E FR Campaign Guide saying at the back of the book "This index isn't meant to be an index - it's meant to be a source of inspiration"?

Read: "You believe paying a high school student $5 per hour to use some easy-to-use software to compile an index of this book is money well invested? Well, we don't."

Making PDFs of 4E books to cater to 2,500 people downloading them isn't worth the effort.

Thing is, Windjammer, they have to make the PDFs ANYWAY. A lot of the printing done in china is sent as PDFs with embedded fonts. BIG pdfs. 300DPI+ images, and vector fonts (.ttf or .ps), because those are easily separated with the drivers for their systems.

The PDFs released by uploaders prior to the official launch appear to have been the print-side PDF's sent to the printers.

All they need to do to make those into salable PDF's is open them in acrobat, and crop them, and then save optimized. Watermarking might require some minor tweaks; I don't know 'bout DTRPG's process.

It turns a byproduct of the printing process into a salable product in 20minutes or less.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;309583The generational theory isn't something Mr. Goodman invented, it's a marketing concept he applied to the data. Malleus Arianorum concurred with his interpolation approvingly in the third person past tense.

I was going to point out the same thing.

People tend to pick up the same hobbies/interests they had as teenagers again when they are adults.

Explains why I have a lot of classic David Bowie and Jethro Tull on my intunes library at the moment. ;) And whey classic sitcoms are made into movies thirty years later.

Quote from: aramis;309593It turns a byproduct of the printing process into a salable product in 20minutes or less.

Ah, ok, thanks for the reality check.

I had been aware of the PHB 1 printer's PDFs, but forgot to bring these to bear on my ruminations. Thanks.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;309516Translation (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4835069-post42.html)

got modded before i could read it. :(

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;309546Most RPG sessions, I've noticed, aren't epic, dramatic campaigns with detailed, intricat storylines. They're 'Hey guys, let's kill some orcs!' action-comedy.

The most sensible thing i've read in ages.

the biggest truism in the hobby today; i tried running Changeling the Lost a while back having been impressed by reading the game. I tried to coax my two players, who aren't lazy or stupid (well not often) to come up with character backstories and explanations as befit the storytelling nature of the setting nd the whole WoD thing. I don't think those games work otherwise. I might as well not have bothered. Consequently I didn't run the game. And probably for the best. People don't want to spend their leisure time pretending they are d20 Shakespeare. They want to have fun and the roleplaying comes from the group interacting, not some rulebook telling you how. Fortunately because of my friends' stupidity and laziness I saved myself the hassle of having to dream up some turgid storyline for a pretentious horror game. Too much highbrow in gaming, yet WoW sells in the millions.

3E hit at an absolute low point in D&D's history, probably the lowest point other than before it existed.  TSR almost went bankrupt, it's product had been crap for some years, and people we just disillusioned with TSR and D&D altogether.
When 3ed hit, it was like the second coming of Christ.  If it had been a worse game, it still would have sold like gangbusters.

4ed is coming in at a time of strength, not weakness.  3ed/3.5 were still going strong, loads of people were still playing and still happy with D&D, so its really an apples/oranges thing.  Theres no WAY 4ed could equal or surpass the 3ed hype machine, because the situations were opposite.

Also, yeah the 90's were a low point for D&D, not role playing.  The 90s were great for role playing, just not if you wanted fantasy.  White Wolf kept the industry alive until D&D resurfaced, and lots of people who played WW games moved on to other stuff - like me.  I had been out of gaming for a while, but WW brought me back in, and I eventually made the jump back to AD&D (not happily) and then 3ed was just the perfect game for me at the time.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;3096013E hit at an absolute low point in D&D's history ... 4ed is coming in at a time of strength, not weakness.   ... Theres no WAY 4ed could equal or surpass the 3ed hype machine, because the situations were opposite.

Here's Monte Cook, interviewed in Kobold Quarterly issue 6, some time early in 2008 before 4E was out.

Quote from: The KoboldKQ: Does you have an opinion you want to share about 4E coming out?

MC: 4E is in an interesting but somewhat unenviable position. It faces challenges that 3E never had to, and I have no idea what exactly will happen. To be sure, it will be a success, but will it be enough of a success for WotC's bottom line-watchers to be happy? To justify having such a large department of people? I don't know.

When 3E was launched, 2E was virtually dead. (By that, I mean as a viable commercial product, not as a game.) The general audience was ready for change, eager for it actually. No one had to be convinced that 2E was a bad game (it wasn't) in order to get them to be excited for 3E. 2E had simply run its natural course.

Also, 3E came out when the economy was doing pretty well. People had plenty disposable incomes to dump on three big hardcovers. Perhaps even more importantly, it came out when geek nostalgia was at its peak. D&D was showing up on TV shows, movies, and even GE commercials. There was a powerful zeitgeist there. Lastly, it came at a time when the kids who played it as teens in the 80s were now at the age where they could sit down and introduce it to their kids. The timing for a big resurgence for D&D was just right.

Now, the designers and WotC had nothing to do with any of those circumstances, obviously. It was just sort of a perfect storm situation. 4E has none of those advantages. WotC announced the new edition while 3E was still going strong. It has had to spend as much or more of its marketing push on convincing the audience that 3E is flawed as it has previewing and hyping 4E. (3E also had Dragon and Dungeon magazines to help support it and its marketing effort, and 4E does not, but that was by WotC's choice.) The economy is lot shakier. D&D is portrayed (unfairly) in the media as the sad little precursor to online games.

So it will be very difficult for 4E to achieve 3E's success, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the game's design (which I actually know very little about). I do see that it is fracturing the D&D community in ways that 3E never did, but that's because there almost wasn't a community left back then—at least in comparison to now. That's sad to see, and I don't think it had to be that way, but what's done is done.

See also here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw87-CPbD_g) for an earlier assessment by Monte re 2E vs 3E, shortly after 4E was announced.

Quote from: RPGPundit;309519Did anyone actually save the guy's parody before it got deleted by the mods? I would have liked reading it.

RPGPundit

Thankfully, it's been resurrected and reposted at the Wondrous Imaginings blog:

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/really-funny-comment-on-joe-goodmans.html

QuoteFor despite my having said that the internet market is less than nothing, the DDI has changed all aspects of 4E in ways that you, with your limited senses, cannot understand. I shall not endeavor to explain it to you further.

haha oh shit, thank you someone for the sunday morning humor! (i don't attend church, you see..)

all i can imagine is mouth-breathing and the constant pushing of glasses back up on the bridge...then the look of smug satisfaction.  

thanks for the post, ZenWired!

My observations:

First, if Goodman is correct in saying 4e sales are comparable or better than 33 out of the 35 years of D&D sales based on all the data he's familiar with, that, to me, sounds like a pretty good definition of strong sales.  And if WotC or Hasbro was expecting 4e to top 3e's peak sales, they were the only ones - everyone else was predicting lower sales as far as I remember for most of the reasons already discussed.

WotC getting rid of pdf sales was retarded.  Whatever bullshit "unpiratable" system they eventually may or may not come up with in the future will likely be more retarded.  It's amazing how fast WotC went from a young and vibrant next-generation company in the 90s to a stodgy, plodding group of corporate assholes.

Finally, EnWorld's mods are jackasses.  The post they deleted was quite funny and hardly offensive (unless Mr. Goodman has very, very thin skin).  I'll never understand why some message boards feel they to be so totalitarian.  Must be their pathetic delusions of power as mods.

Quote from: ZenWired;309607Thankfully, it's been resurrected and reposted at the Wondrous Imaginings blog:

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/really-funny-comment-on-joe-goodmans.html

that's some goooooooooooooood sarcasm.

mmmmmmmm-mm.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;309611that's some goooooooooooooood sarcasm.

mmmmmmmm-mm.

Meh.  It adds very little to the debate, does nothing to rebut any of the points Goodman made, and just kind of handwaves everything away with snark.

His tone was off, for sure, but Goodman made some good points, backed up with what little hard data we have available.

Anyone looking at 4ed would be silly to call it a failure, and retarded not to call it successful - but it DOES have a harder situation sales wise than 3ed did, and it likely will never be as successful as 3ed was.

But "not being as successful as the most popular and best selling game in RPG history" =/= "failure".

Yum.  
I mean...Yum.  That was actually one of the best written and best thought-out diatribes I've perused in a while.  And it would be educational for Mr. Goodman, who is semingly a little too used to kow-towing readers.

As I have said a few times, I'm thrilled for anyone that is making money in the RPG world, and that goes for 4e and goodman.  I love reading Clash's stuff and was more than happy to jump in to Akrasia's thread about some rule work he was doing.
I just don't respond well to anyone telling me 'How It Really Is', from on high.  I view it as suspect from the start.

Understandable, but on the other hand there is so much misinformation, innuendo, and opinion presented as fact out there on ye olde intartubez, that I can imagine its hard to resist the temptation to go 'OI!  You don't know shit about shit, and I actually do.  Here's the real deal, now fuck off and get back to debating the best system for playing a fairy princess!"

It's not surprising that GG sales are doing well - all of their competitors are dead or have moved to other games.  

The fact that sales of 3rd party 4e products aren't strong enough to keep Necromancer in the 4e stable and that no new companies are even making a dent this time around speaks a lot more loudly than his post.

Quote from: mhensley;309619It's not surprising that GG sales are doing well - all of their competitors are dead or have moved to other games.  

The fact that sales of 3rd party 4e products aren't strong enough to keep Necromancer in the 4e stable and that no new companies are even making a dent this time around speaks a lot more loudly than his post.

Or that 3rd party rules for 4ed are more onerous than previously, and that the 3rd party zeitgeist of 3ed has come and gone, and we will likely never see its like again.

Quote from: obryn;309570I dunno, why don't you share why it's "significant"?  Or are you happy with vague innuendoes?  I mean, few things work better to shield you from your own asshattery!

Otherwise, just ... well, you know how that one ends!

-O

Sure, if you bother to look at the time stamps, you can see that the post was yanked within two hours of it coming online. That is pretty fast for ENWorld, IMHO, so it looks like they were watching the thread closely because they knew that Goodman's comments were going to be controversial.

I guess that's enough of a conspiracy theory for you to do some knee-jerk posting.

EDIT: And after reading the post that was yanked, it looks like the ENWorld mods were overreacting.

Quote from: LordVreeg;309613Yum.  
I mean...Yum.  That was actually one of the best written and best thought-out diatribes I've perused in a while.  And it would be educational for Mr. Goodman, who is semingly a little too used to kow-towing readers.

As I have said a few times, I'm thrilled for anyone that is making money in the RPG world, and that goes for 4e and goodman.  I love reading Clash's stuff and was more than happy to jump in to Akrasia's thread about some rule work he was doing.
I just don't respond well to anyone telling me 'How It Really Is', from on high.  I view it as suspect from the start.

Goodman said "here's what I know, why I know it, now prove me wrong if you can." He put his balls on the table. Let's see if someone else will do so to rebut. It's telling that so far the only counterarguments are snark and indignation that he acted like an alpha dog. If it's suspect, then someone will - or should, really - produce the evidence that it's hogwash.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;309633Goodman said "here's what I know, why I know it, now prove me wrong if you can." He put his balls on the table. Let's see if someone else will do so to rebut. It's telling that so far the only counterarguments are snark and indignation that he acted like an alpha dog. If it's suspect, then someone will - or should, really - produce the evidence that it's hogwash.

Actually, Joe Goodman doesn't cite much in the way of actual evidence, outside of an appeal to his own authority.

That's what the snark is about.

FASERIP doesn't believe that Joseph Goodman has access to TSR's or WotC's sales records, so FASERIP doubts the grounds for Joseph Goodman's claims to authority, even though FASERIP is pretty sure 4e is selling well.

Quote from: Colonel HardissonLet's see if someone else will do so to rebut. It's telling that so far the only counterarguments are snark and indignation that he acted like an alpha dog. If it's suspect, then someone will - or should, really - produce the evidence that it's hogwash.

As I said, I'm happy anyone is making some money in our little world, and this certainly includes our Mr. Goodman.  I hope his second business makes a ton of money, as everyone wins then.  And furthermore, I was happy to have access to his thought process.

But the only people really in a position to rebut this with evidence (i.e., people with access to the sales numbers)are probably people who's best interests are being served by Goodman's hypothesis.  The best kept secrets are those where everyone with access to the truth has a vested interest in keeping that data from the light of day.  

So my breath is not being held waiting for someone to rebut it.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;309633Goodman said "here's what I know, why I know it, now prove me wrong if you can."

That's certainly the way I read it.
Course the success of his business model should be proof to back up his claims  in itself. He seems to be expanding rather than shrinking. That speaks volumes.

Quote from: JollyRB;309647That's certainly the way I read it.
Course the success of his business model should be proof to back up his claims  in itself. He seems to be expanding rather than shrinking. That speaks volumes.

As I said on Enworld, the pity about Joe's post is that he dived into the general "4E is going well" area quite needlessly when the really interesting thing would have been to elaborate a bit more on why, in his case, being a GSL license taker really paid off.

Just to mention two factors that came to my mind.

First, when 4E designers first announced their "points of light" setting and the inclusion of dragonborn as a "core race", the designers of GG's own campaign world "Aereth" were overjoyed, for in these (and other) respects, Aereth already was that type of campaign world. If you wish, Aereth was the first 4E campaign setting there ever was. In that regard, 4E incidentally helped to make "Aereth" more prominent, and more accessible to the (soon current) mainstream of D&D gamers, than it ever was before. Contrast Paizo or Necromancer Games for whom the 4E changes were positively moving into directions contrary to these companies' expectations of what to pull off in a D&D product.

And that's just talking about world design. Let's talk about rules. So, second, as Harley Stroh said in an interview at Kobold Quarterly, he frequently caught flag for his rules ignorance on monsters, traps, etc. when designing the Dungeon Crawl Classics. Well guess what. 4E's attitude that DMs can cook up rules as they please comes as a godsent to designers of Harvey's bent. And that's what Harvey says himself. Harvey always enjoyed making up his own stuff no matter what the rules said. But now he's basically walking the party line in doing that where previously he would be stigmatized as a heretic or an ignoramus. (Don't believe me? Take a look at the mega-review of the 3.5 DCC line over at RPGNet.)

I'm sure there are other factors, but basically I think a lot more needs to be said than just pointing to one's distribution model to explain why one's product is doing well under the GSL. I mean, Clark Peterson always said he wanted to like 4E. You look at Goodman Games and you see a staff who actually likes 4E because at the level of world and rules design it serves their interests far better than 3E ever did.

Would you say Final Fantasy has the points of light theme?

Quote from: Cranewings;309650Would you say Final Fantasy has the points of light theme?

I've only played XI, and it definitely isn't.  Coherent nation-states and small, peaceful villages is just the opposite of PoL.

Quote from: RPGPundit;309519Did anyone actually save the guy's parody before it got deleted by the mods? I would have liked reading it.

And so you can... It's been reposted in it's entirety here:
http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/really-funny-comment-on-joe-goodmans.html

Quote from: Hairfoot;309654I've only played XI, and it definitely isn't.  Coherent nation-states and small, peaceful villages is just the opposite of PoL.

I mostly played 10 and 3... and in both of those you get attacked by all kinds of shit 5 seconds out of the gate...

Wait...it's FFXII I played, not XI.

Out of curiosity, what reason was given for deleting the piss-taking post at EnWorld? Sure, they have the right to do so, but having a "thou shalt not mock self-declared Big Wigs" policy is pretty fucked up.

Taking the piss out of internet posters is a time-honored hobby in and of itself, and the gag raised some good points. Chief amoung those, I believe, is that Goodman claims to have a lot of data by dint of doing a lot of research though sources he claims to have, but never actually shares any of that raw data with us. Not even cherry-picked numbers.

On the other hand, a post at EnWorld, no matter how valued the forum is, is not really the right place for what would be a lengthy essay full of numbers Goodman may not actually want to disclose, not to mention that I'm not sure if we can get any reliable data out of Wizards.

If I'm allowed my own baseless speculation (and it is the internet, after all), I don't think it really matters if 4th Ed. sells as well as 3rd, or even if it's a better game. (I haven't played it even though I kind of want to. I don't own any materials for it, either even though... well, see above.) What matters, to the company, is that it sells at all. If you determine that you're going to see a decline in 3.5 material and you can get a long-time boost by releasing what is, essentially, a different product with what is, additionally, basically a rehash of books you have released in the past (see Complete line of books, D&D 3.5), you might want to do it.

After that, you can declare success at the drop of a hat. I would like to think that D&D is enough of a draw that you can continue to sell it even if it's not doing well, but I don't think Hasbro would do that. I'm sure there are holes in my speculation, but I'm not really clear on what they are. I'm fine with engaging in what is truly the greatest of internet sins - admitting I'm wrong.

Quote from: The_Shadow;309661Out of curiosity, what reason was given for deleting the piss-taking post at EnWorld? Sure, they have the right to do so, but having a "thou shalt not mock self-declared Big Wigs" policy is pretty fucked up.

Well, it's been general policy there that quoting someone else and altering the words of their post in a mocking way (aka "FIFY" posts) are bad form and generally disallowed. The mod also seemed to think it was insulting.

Which I could see. Still, it was funny.

Quote from: Cranewings;309650Would you say Final Fantasy has the points of light theme?

In setting terms it varies, with the PoL theme being more prominent in some instalments than others.

In terms of gameplay it's PoL all the way. A short excursion to the countryside leaves you wondering how anyone survived the world long enough to build all those beautiful cities.

Well, there's a simple explanation for that...

...Heroes taste better! Just ask a dragon...

The mid 90's were crap for game companies, tho'....

GDW Closed down, while still (barely) in the black.
Task Force was shut down; ADB had to sue to be able to continue to produce product.
FASA Shut down, and sold off the rights to the youngest brother, who formed Wiz Kids.
Mayfair nearly went under, but they got better.
West End went bankrupt. The new ownership avoided licensed products for good reason.
Last Unicorn lost both licenses at the same time, with NO warning. They folded.
Columbia Games was being sued over Hârnmaster rights. (Eventually, both sides got rights... ≤shudder≥)
Paramount lost their suit vs. Task Force and Amarillo Design bureau.
David Webber quit Task Force to write novels, and quit writing the Starfire game engine.
Several other smaller companies folded and were bought by chessex

It really sucked rocks for much of the industry. Gaming was still strong, but game companies were not. The 100# gorrilla wasn't TSR... it was White Wolf, who'd broken out into bookstores, rather than mostly game stores. Heck, you could find WWG games at Waldenbooks... not a whole lot of companies were in the normal book distribution channels, because it was VERY different in terms of return policy from the games and hobbies market.

And WotC was buying up and closing down their RPG competition. No one realized TSR was weak enough to be their next victim...

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;309622Or that 3rd party rules for 4ed are more onerous than previously, and that the 3rd party zeitgeist of 3ed has come and gone, and we will likely never see its like again.

Never is a too strong word, but I agree that the zeitgeist is "official only, please". Some of that is, of course, burnout; after a few years, if D&D lives that long as a paper and pencil game, we might see a swing in the opposite direction, just like with 3e.

Now GG is thriving not just for the lack of competition, but because you can slot their products into your 4e campaign with a minimal hassle. They have identified and served their target audience well, and are rewarded for it.

Quote from: aramis;309693Last Unicorn lost both licenses at the same time, with NO warning. They folded.

LUG was bought by WOTC and was quietly closed down after the Star Trek and Dune licenses were lost IRRC.

They didn't exactly go under. Wotc paid BIG to acquire the company.

Quote from: Melan;309703Never is a too strong word, but I agree that the zeitgeist is "official only, please". Some of that is, of course, burnout; after a few years, if D&D lives that long as a paper and pencil game, we might see a swing in the opposite direction, just like with 3e.

Now GG is thriving not just for the lack of competition, but because you can slot their products into your 4e campaign with a minimal hassle. They have identified and served their target audience well, and are rewarded for it.

Honestly, we used some third party material in our initial 3ed games, then just dropped em all and went "core only" the quality and balance was too sketchy.  Just never found anything that did it for us.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;309715Honestly, we used some third party material in our initial 3ed games, then just dropped em all and went "core only" the quality and balance was too sketchy.  Just never found anything that did it for us.

Hmmm. As for us, it soon became apparent that while WotC products were pretty, 3pp offered stuff that went beyond some design principles that WotC staffers always stuck with (e.g., "always use the core races in settings; they go good everywhere!", "don't design anything better than a metamagic feat, because everyone uses those!", etc.)

Yeah, there was some crap out there, but after you found who the good authors and publishers were (two intersecting sets), it wasn't too hard to navigate.

Quote from: MelanNow GG is thriving not just for the lack of competition, but because you can slot their products into your 4e campaign with a minimal hassle. They have identified and served their target audience well, and are rewarded for it.

Quite.  Identify a need, fill it.  
And good for them, if they are making money at it.  
The 'state of 4e' thing was kind of interesting, as was Goodman's obvious zeal in defending 4e's sales and popularity and whatever spurred on his need to place 'spin' on same.  We'll learn a lot by the speed that 5e is produced, methinks.

Yesterday I got banned from ENW, apparently for posting on the Goodman thread that I wasn't going to respond to another poster's childish insults.  I didn't even say 'childish insults' or anything.  I just quoted his 'grow a spine' line. :\  The standard of modding on ENW is usually very high compared to rpgnet so I don't really understand what happened.

PirateCat seemed to be having trouble keeping his shit together.  Was it me, or did he close more than one thread with complaints about having to babysit?

Quote from: S'mon;309751Yesterday I got banned from ENW, apparently for posting on the Goodman thread that I wasn't going to respond to another poster's childish insults.  I didn't even say 'childish insults' or anything.  I just quoted his 'grow a spine' line. :\  The standard of modding on ENW is usually very high compared to rpgnet so I don't really understand what happened.

That's entirely weird.  You've got about a billion well thought out, substantive posts there, and they ban you over a perceived insult that's actually a quotation back at someone?

Was it a permaban?

Quote from: Aos;309756Was it a permaban?

Oh no, that'd be ridiculous.  A 3-day ban.   I did get one of those once before: I had just read through 16 pages of Hussar calling GMs who GM'd like me 'asshats', and ultimately posted something like "We think you're an asshat too' - so it was a fair cop, guv'nor, I didn't mind the ban.  But this time I really didn't do anything - the guy, whose name escapes me, was sounding off at everyone he thought was disrespecting 4e, but I made the conscious decision not to say anything even mildly snarky back at him as I didn't want to risk a ban.  Then I log on a while later and... I've been banned:

You have been banned for the following reason:
Behavior in Goodman thread. You ignored repeated warnings.

Date the ban will be lifted: 24th June 2009, 02:00 PM

I'm just really bemused because I haven't seen anything like this before from ENW.  It seems almost worse than rpg.net modding.  :(

Edit: Also, being banned, I can't contact the mods for clarification, though I did email Morrus as that was the one thing you can do from the 'ban' page.

Start with tBP, strip out all the passive-aggressive, double the number of precious snowflakes, and you have the sandy-vagina sycophantia that is ENWorld.

StormBringer stopped even reading there about a year ago.

This place is ENWorld (related) in a way, so there you go.

What I really don´t like is Circus Maximus and it´s effects on the clique process on ENWorld. That´s pretty lame, especially Re: ENnies.

I wonder why no one talks about the ENNIEs this year. Did I miss something?

For the love of all that is holy, I do not want to hear another fucking whinge about free speech.

Quote from: LordVreeg;309741Quite.  Identify a need, fill it.  
And good for them, if they are making money at it.  

Is Goodman Games making money? The owner himself admits the company is just a side-hobby. It doesn't sound like uses (or needs) the company to earn a living.  Maybe Goodman just breaks even.

Which is perfectly fine. I just wouldn't go around holding up Goodman Games as a successful business model, when we have no idea if it is even profitable.

Quote from: S'mon;309751Yesterday I got banned from ENW, apparently for posting on the Goodman thread that I wasn't going to respond to another poster's childish insults.  I didn't even say 'childish insults' or anything.  I just quoted his 'grow a spine' line. :\  The standard of modding on ENW is usually very high compared to rpgnet so I don't really understand what happened.

 After removing the post that go reposted on Joethelawyer's blog page, and banning a number of people quite needlessly (not just you - my favourite being the one who just wrote "MHUAHAHAHAHAHA!"), they basically removed entire portions of thread AS SUCH.*

Check the dead link in the OP  here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/257937-hard-data-dilemma-forked-thread-goodman-state-d-d-4th-edition.html).

So don't take it personally - EnWorld has currently lost its sense of proportion.

* Which were there formerly. I also thought the thread itself was gone - it's not:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/257927-goodman-rebuttal.html

Quote from: Haffrung

Quote from:  LordVreegQuite. Identify a need, fill it.
And good for them, if they are making money at it.

Is Goodman Games making money? The owner himself admits the company is just a side-hobby. It doesn't sound like uses (or needs) the company to earn a living. Maybe Goodman just breaks even.

Which is perfectly fine. I just wouldn't go around holding up Goodman Games as a successful business model, when we have no idea if it is even profitable

Correct.  The lack of concrete data in general in the OP was one of my issues.

My other issues are why this and the spin were necessary, and why Goodman's reasoning for the success of certain editions does not include anything to do with the quality of the systems themselves.  

As in, maybe edition 'X' sold really well partially because it was perceived as a great game, not just due to external factors.  Maybe 2001 was a 'once in a gaming generation' success because the game that was released compared really well against what was out in the field at the time.

But I will be the first to say (again) that I am happy when anyone makes money in this field, and that I'll be looking forward to his next posting.  I certainly found it interesting.

Quote from: StormBringer;309762For the love of all that is holy, I do not want to hear another fucking whinge about free speech.

They can delete our posts, they can ban our accounts, but they can never take OUR FREEDOM!!!!

Quote from: LordVreeg;309787As in, maybe edition 'X' sold really well partially because it was perceived as a great game, not just due to external factors.  Maybe 2001 was a 'once in a gaming generation' success because the game that was released compared really well against what was out in the field at the time.

That's the catch. There was no commercially supported version of D&D when 3E was released. Basically, 3E never had something like 3E to contend with when it arrived. Just by comparison, suppose no d20 product of the 3E-era was supported right now, no Pathfinder or anything else, and that all of a sudden 4E folds up. No D&D. And then Paizo steps onto the scene, proclaiming they are saving D&D from complete bankruptcy. Can you picture the scale on which people would jump aboard?

In 2000, there was exactly one option you could choose if you wanted a commercially supported edition of D&D.

Btw, I think Monte Cook would be way more vocal of attributing the success of "his" edition to his own design genius, if he saw fit to do so. But, as I pointed out upthread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=309606&postcount=42), he doesn't see fit to do so.

Quote from: StormBringer;309759Start with tBP, strip out all the passive-aggressive, double the number of precious snowflakes, and you have the sandy-vagina sycophantia that is ENWorld.

StormBringer stopped even reading there about a year ago.

seconded.

Quote from: ZenWired;309607Thankfully, it's been resurrected and reposted at the Wondrous Imaginings blog:

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/2009/06/really-funny-comment-on-joe-goodmans.html

Thanks for the link! That was a fun read and spot on too.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;309790They can delete our posts, they can ban our accounts, but they can never take OUR FREEDOM!!!!

:rotfl:

Quote from: Windjammer;309778After removing the post that go reposted on Joethelawyer's blog page, and banning a number of people quite needlessly (not just you - my favourite being the one who just wrote "MHUAHAHAHAHAHA!"), they basically removed entire portions of thread AS SUCH.*

Check the dead link in the OP  here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/257937-hard-data-dilemma-forked-thread-goodman-state-d-d-4th-edition.html).

So don't take it personally - EnWorld has currently lost its sense of proportion.

* Which were there formerly. I also thought the thread itself was gone - it's not:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/257927-goodman-rebuttal.html

Thanks for the information, but your links just take me to the 'you're banned' message.  :)

Quote from: S'mon;309806Thanks for the information, but your links just take me to the 'you're banned' message.  :)

SNAP!

Quote from: S'mon;309806Thanks for the information, but your links just take me to the 'you're banned' message.  :)

You just have to log out. Then you can view everything. I recall when I got my first thread-ban on Enworld. Everytime I read that topic and logged on while doing so I got kicked out. Solution? Just don't logon (and delete cookies to prevent auto-logging in).

Quote from: Windjammer;309815You just have to log out. Then you can view everything. I recall when I got my first thread-ban on Enworld. Everytime I read that topic and logged on while doing so I got kicked out. Solution? Just don't logon (and delete cookies to prevent auto-logging in).

OK, thanks.  Deleting cookies did it.

So, I've just now accessed the ENW thread.  Who is this Xath mod-person who banned me?  I've been posting at ENW 8+ years and I've never even heard of them!  :(

Quote from: S'mon;309820So, I've just now accessed the ENW thread.  Who is this Xath mod-person who banned me?  I've been posting at ENW 8+ years and I've never even heard of them!  :(

That's the screen name of Gertie, one of the ENnies judges/inner circle from the past couple of years, I believe.  I didn't know she was a mod, too.

QuoteWho is this Xath mod-person who banned me?  I've been posting at ENW 8+ years and I've never even heard of them!  

As I said upthread:

Quote from: Settembrini;309761T
What I really don´t like is Circus Maximus and it´s effects on the clique process on ENWorld. That´s pretty lame, especially Re: ENnies.

The Circus Maximus guys are kind of a bunch of douchebags. I met seven or so of them at Giant Space Telescope Con, and crashed my car with two of them in it while driving home (lost traction on a gravel road on a curve). I was apologetic and drove them home 500km rather than get the car towed to the nearest shop. Rather than say anything to my face, everyone jumped online and started bitching and moaning and claiming they'd seen it coming and just generally sniping at me behind my back. If I hadn't stepped into the forum to check it out, I'd never've heard a word about it (they didn't even mention it on facebook).

Also, I wasn't too wowed by the quality and style of their roleplaying.

In short: Fvck Circvs Maximvs.

Quote from: Zachary The First;309868That's the screen name of Gertie, one of the ENnies judges/inner circle from the past couple of years, I believe.  I didn't know she was a mod, too.

Thanks - I'm reassured anyway that it wasn't actually Piratecat who banned me or the others (except the one guy being a dick, who arguably deserved it) but some woman with a 2004 join date who doesn't even post regularly but happens to be in some clique I'd never heard of either.  Among the EN mods, Plane Sailing could be a bit of a mod-Nazi but most of them have always been very good, including Piratecat, Henry, Eridanis I think.  I guess the occasional bad apple is inevitable.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;309881The Circus Maximus guys are kind of a bunch of douchebags. I met seven or so of them at Giant Space Telescope Con, and crashed my car with two of them in it while driving home (lost traction on a gravel road on a curve). I was apologetic and drove them home 500km rather than get the car towed to the nearest shop. Rather than say anything to my face, everyone jumped online and started bitching and moaning and claiming they'd seen it coming and just generally sniping at me behind my back. If I hadn't stepped into the forum to check it out, I'd never've heard a word about it (they didn't even mention it on facebook).

Also, I wasn't too wowed by the quality and style of their roleplaying.

emphasis added. I´m stunned, and amazed. Seems there´s something really rotten going on there.

Quote from: StormBringer;309759Start with tBP, strip out all the passive-aggressive, double the number of precious snowflakes, and you have the sandy-vagina sycophantia that is ENWorld.

I would say that, barring the current fiasco, ENWorld's moderation is quite a lot better than RPGNet, even though it is also a tightly controlled place. What they don't have is the tenor of passive-aggressive I-can-do-it-and-you-can't smugness, and that helps tremendously. The level of debate is also higher, although sometimes lacking that special something only a good flamewar or two can provide. All in all, I disagree with your evaluation.

CM is sometimes interesting, but way too often so tied up in almost ten years old personal networks and infighting that it is almost incestous. It is very hard to become a regular there.

Quote from: Settembrini;309887emphasis added. I´m stunned, and amazed. Seems there´s something really rotten going on there.

Well they could have spent the 500 km scared stiff you were going to crash again, and too terrified to say anything... :D

I think I get why Goodman went of on his crazy sounding rant. It was some positive spin for the LGS. His denying their obsolescence is due to them buying his product and paying his bills.

Behold he continues to pump up LGS in the thread here http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/258063-tell-me-about-your-favorite-game-store.html (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/258063-tell-me-about-your-favorite-game-store.html)

And good on him for giving the struggling gaming stores some props. I still visit mine in the city each week hoping for some new product. I don't think they will last but good on Goodman for giving them a shout out.

Quote from: Melan;309888I would say that, barring the current fiasco, ENWorld's moderation is quite a lot better than RPGNet, even though it is also a tightly controlled place. What they don't have is the tenor of passive-aggressive I-can-do-it-and-you-can't smugness, and that helps tremendously. The level of debate is also higher, although sometimes lacking that special something only a good flamewar or two can provide. All in all, I disagree with your evaluation.

Yes, I agree.  On ENW I rarely get the rpgnet experience where some dick with approved opinions wheedles me, I respond fairly politely, then the mods threaten me with suspension.  rpgnet mods enforce a stifling political left-wing orthodoxy, whereas ENW mods are fairly consistent in enforcing 'no politics'.

But what happened on ENW on Sunday with Xath was even worse than anything I can recall on rpgnet.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;309881The Circus Maximus guys are kind of a bunch of douchebags.

CM is to Enworld as therpgsite is to rpg.net.

Quote from: Melan;309888I would say that, barring the current fiasco, ENWorld's moderation is quite a lot better than RPGNet, even though it is also a tightly controlled place. What they don't have is the tenor of passive-aggressive I-can-do-it-and-you-can't smugness, and that helps tremendously. The level of debate is also higher, although sometimes lacking that special something only a good flamewar or two can provide. All in all, I disagree with your evaluation.

No you didn't.  You agreed the passive-aggressiveness is diminished, and your assessment of the level of discourse sounds like you are amplifying the idea they are 'precious snowflakes', as in "we don't bicker around here, we are better than that".

Quote from: Melan;309888CM is sometimes interesting, but way too often so tied up in almost ten years old personal networks and infighting that it is almost incestous. It is very hard to become a regular there.

My exact impression. I posted at Nothingland during its last couple of incarnations; most of the poster from that sight seem to have gone CM. I did not; I never felt cool enough, but I still get the Birthday message every year.

Quote from: Aos;309932My exact impression. I posted at Nothingland during its last couple of incarnations; most of the poster from that sight seem to have gone CM. I did not; I never felt cool enough, but I still get the Birthday message every year.

Well, you are cool enough for us.

I'm sorry but I would need to see where he got all of this data.  I mean he uses his own sales and his own special blend of herbs and spices to say that it is doing well.  I am not refuting his statements to say 4E is not doing well but if I can't use/see the same data he has, then I can't confirm or deny what he saying.  If I can't do that, then by default, I don't buy it.

Quote from: jrients;309555How did Mr. Goodman decide that 35 years is roughly two generations?  Two generations of what?  And the assertion "D&D has roughly one peak every generation" seems like an awful big conclusion to draw from the available data pool of only 2 generations, whatever his definition of a generation is.

I don't doubt that Mr. Goodman has done his research or that he knows a helluva lot more about the game business than I do.  But his argument as presented looks a little like he's offering a special pleading on behalf of 4e.  Maybe if he had offered this argument well in advance of 4e apparently not selling as well as 3e it would look more credible.  I dunno.

Bingo.

Joe's a really nice guy. I have nothing against him. But here, he's obviously biased, and feels like he needs to play cheerleader after Clark Peterson basically said he was giving up on print 4e products because distributors didn't want them (http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/10808/t/Necro-Update-4E-print-not-looking-good-but-still-possible.html). That's an action-reaction thing.

As to the arguments themselves, I find them shaky at best. The "look at me, I'm a guy who gets the business" is all fine and good, but it isn't a pass to say whatever the fuck you want. The rest is just a sum of assumptions and semi-apologetic statements destined to basically tell us "4e doesn't sell that well, but it's still kinda successful". Right.

Quote from: jrients;309752PirateCat seemed to be having trouble keeping his shit together.  Was it me, or did he close more than one thread with complaints about having to babysit?

It's not you. He did close a bunch of threads where incidentally Morrus himself was trolling against ENW's code of conduct. But that's okay, see, because he knows the motives of posters without them saying so. Eric Noah gave him the ultimate admin psychic ability to read posters' minds before they touch their keyboards!


You can have a look at the Meta forum, threds "return of the edition wars" and "less people posting" to see the fallout of this whole thing.

When you consider that in the former thread they are actually considering individual subject bans and taking lessons from RPGnet's moderation... that's eye-poppingly sad, if you were a regular of ENW a few years ago as I was.

TheRPGsite is the only full-blown site where we do not moderate RPG speech.

RPGPundit

I beg to differ! theRPGsite has now a history of bannings, resulting from pissing matches with the mods.

All message boards get some bans under the belt, sooner or later.
Wouldn't you ban a guy posting porn on every single thread on your Prussian message boards? Hm?
Well then, here you go. Bans happen.

Quote from: RPGPundit;309963TheRPGsite is the only full-blown site where we do not moderate RPG speech.

And would never ban anyone for anything they say...

Seanchai

Quote from: RPGPundit;309963TheRPGsite is the only full-blown site where we do not moderate RPG speech.

RPGPundit

Come on, you know Sett is just waiting to deliver another screed on free speech.

Quote from: Benoist;309967All message boards get some bans under the belt, sooner or later.
Wouldn't you ban a guy posting porn on every single thread on your Prussian message boards? Hm?
Well then, here you go. Bans happen.

I don´t think you need a ban to do this. If it´s illegal it´s illegal and will be acted legally against. Free Speech is a continuum, and I´m the first who acknowledges theRPGsite is more free than most other venues. I just like the line to be drawn a bit further. But enough on that, I don´t want to turn this thread into one about my pet peeve. ENworlds moderation definitely has taken a turn for the worse, that we can all agree on.

Quote from: Settembrini;309989ENworlds moderation definitely has taken a turn for the worse, that we can all agree on.

I just wish I'd had some inkling of that before I got banned.  :\

Quote from: S'mon;309995I just wish I'd had some inkling of that before I got banned.  :\

You got permabanned?! How? :hmm:

Quote from: Benoist;309996You got permabanned?! How? :hmm:

No, they call it a ban "You have been banned" it says, but actually a 3-day suspension.

Goodman's a blowhard.  The people to ask about TSR financials are:

Frank Mentzer, Ryan Dancey, and Paul J. Stormberg.

I'd trust their opinions long before I...well let's just say if Joe told me the sun was shining I'd pack an umbrella just in case.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;310003Goodman's a blowhard.  The people to ask about TSR financials are:

Frank Mentzer, Ryan Dancey, and Paul J. Stormberg.

I'd trust their opinions long before I...well let's just say if Joe told me the sun was shining I'd pack an umbrella just in case.

And what are Frank Mentzer, Ryan Dancer, and Paul Stormberg saying?

Quote from: aramis;310025And what are Frank Mentzer, Ryan Dancer, and Paul Stormberg saying?

I should amend that post; Frank and Ryan both have interesting things to say on TSR financials.  Paul's thing is TSR history in the general, so I'd leave him out of the equation.

vis-a-vis your original question, at the risk of sounding snarky (and I'm not trying to do that) "Ask them."

Ryan is "around" (I'm not a fan of his works or anything so I haven't kept up with him; I'm sure he has a "blog", all the Important Folks(TM) do these days, yeah?); Frank you can catch in his own Q&A forum at Dragonsfoot.

Ask and he'll spill.

Quote from: RPGPundit;309519Did anyone actually save the guy's parody before it got deleted by the mods? I would have liked reading it.

RPGPundit

Sensing its imminent deletion, I saved it and posted it on my blog.

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/

Joe

Quote from: Joethelawyer;310209Sensing its imminent deletion, I saved it and posted it on my blog.

http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com/

Joe

That was you, huh? Quick thinking!

Quote from: Thanatos02;310220That was you, huh? Quick thinking!

I agree. That kinda shit is why I don't frequent other sites much. "Fixed it for ya" posts are often inane, true, but I don't consider that grounds for censorship. Also, I highly doubt this is true, but if JG is enough of a sensitive person to be offended by something like that then the internet is going to be an unpleasant medium for him.

Quote from: Sigmund;310325I agree. That kinda shit is why I don't frequent other sites much. "Fixed it for ya" posts are often inane, true, but I don't consider that grounds for censorship. Also, I highly doubt this is true, but if JG is enough of a sensitive person to be offended by something like that then the internet is going to be an unpleasant medium for him.

StormBringer feels it is necessary to mention that you are supposed to be referring to yourself in the third person.

Quote from: StormBringer;310334StormBringer feels it is necessary to mention that you are supposed to be referring to yourself in the third person.

I don't know why, but doing that always reminds me of Bob from Becker. When that happens I find myself unable to follow through with it ;)

My latest thoughts on this matter:

Assume the generational theory that Mr. Goodman is using is correct, i.e. that a successful property marketed to kids becomes another hit 20 years later when those kids are grown-ups with disposable incomes and pangs of nostalgia.  Then it wouldn't make any damn sense to put out a new edition as you're sliding towards a mid-generation trough.  Year 2 of your new edition is pretty well doomed to be less spectacular than year 1.  Year 3 will be even worse, probably.  So if Mr. Goodman is right, his pet game company is riding a crazy train to oblivion.  If he's making game stuff as a business concern, that would be the height of stupidity.  Isn't his own theory is saying to get the hell out of the D&D business?

In such an environment it might be smart to look at doing small print runs of 'caretaker' products that preserve the legacy.  And whaddya know, Goodman Games is ramping up their Old School support with things like Points of Light I & II, the Dungeon Alphabet and Raggi's monster book.

So maybe Goodman didn't say anything before the present brouhaha, but his money seems to be where his mouth is.

Quote from: jrients;310371My latest thoughts on this matter:

Assume the generational theory that Mr. Goodman is using is correct, i.e. that a successful property marketed to kids becomes another hit 20 years later when those kids are grown-ups with disposable incomes and pangs of nostalgia.  Then it wouldn't make any damn sense to put out a new edition as you're sliding towards a mid-generation trough.  Year 2 of your new edition is pretty well doomed to be less spectacular than year 1.  Year 3 will be even worse, probably.  So if Mr. Goodman is right, his pet game company is riding a crazy train to oblivion.  If he's making game stuff as a business concern, that would be the height of stupidity.  Isn't his own theory is saying to get the hell out of the D&D business?

In such an environment it might be smart to look at doing small print runs of 'caretaker' products that preserve the legacy.  And whaddya know, Goodman Games is ramping up their Old School support with things like Points of Light I & II, the Dungeon Alphabet and Raggi's monster book.

So maybe Goodman didn't say anything before the present brouhaha, but his money seems to be where his mouth is.

My reading is it's less about "success" and more about "insane success".

That D&D 4ed is successful, but that the insane success of 3ed cannot be gotten by a new edition.  But that there are levels of success under "massive mega-hit".

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;310375My reading is it's less about "success" and more about "insane success".

That D&D 4ed is successful, but that the insane success of 3ed cannot be gotten by a new edition.  But that there are levels of success under "massive mega-hit".

Back when I still frequented church services on Sundays, I once heard a vicar pointing out in his sermon how one reason Christianity isn't exactly popular is its shoving people into the face that they are moral failures.

He said,

"You see, failure in today's society is such an issue, such a taboo, that people hesitate to use the very word. People today don't experience failure. They experience negative success."

Well done, Joe!

RPGPundit