It's not Gary's fault that Wick and his gang were little jerks. I knew 11-, 12- and 13-year-olds who played it and took losing in stride.  Just as lots of kids didn't throw tantrums over getting beaten by tough arcade games.

There are only so many mistakes from which having 10th-13th level figures can save you in that scenario, compared with the Giants/Drow series -- which also quickly killed a lot of characters run by players who lacked the necessary skill.  Compared with those, it was also hugely less combat-oriented, above all a thinker's game.

It was more of a fair game than a bunch of T&T solos!

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;881702(Note: I liked many games Wick was involved in and I'm hoping the new 7th Sea surprises me pleasantly, but I'm not getting my hopes up after some of the previews.)

http://johnwickpresents.com/updates/the-worst-adventure-of-all-times/

John Wick posted this about a month ago and I just discovered it. It's so revealing and full of eye-opening quotes. It pretty much explains everything about his famously strong gaming opinions.

For instance:

This is really pathetic.

I am going to apologize to Gary cause I did not know the tournament bit.  Yeah I know he is dead, but I was still wrong.   Though John Wick was a asshole.  He needs to grow up.

Whatta maroon.

Quote from: AsenRG;881762As someone who has never seen said module, nor has any particular desire to see it, how "clearly" is "clearly" in this case? Is it on the cover, in the intro, or what:)?

Regardless, I think that the story of how some players beat ToH with sheep deserves more attention than it's getting;).

It says on Page 2

QuoteAccounts relate that it is quite unlikely that any adventurers will ever find the chamber where the demi-lich Acererak lingers, for the passages and rooms of the Tomb are fraught with terrible traps, poison gases, and magical protections. Furthermore, the demi-lich has so well hidden his lair, that even those who avoid the pitfalls will not be likely to locale their true goal. So only large and well-prepared parties of the bravest and strongest should even consider the attempt, and if they do locate the Tomb, they must be prepared to fail. Any expedition must be composed of characters of high level and varied class. They must have magical protections and weapons, and equip themselves with every sort of device possible to insure their survival.

and this

QuoteAs clever players will gather from a reading of the Legend of the Tomb, this dungeon has more tricks and traps than it has monsters to fight. THIS IS A THINKING PERSON'S MODULE. AND IF YOUR GROUP IS A HACK AND SLAY GATHERING, THEY WILL BE UNHAPPY! In the latter case, it is better to skip the whole thing than come out and tell them that there are few monsters. It is this writer's belief that brainwork is good for all players, and they will certainly benefit from playing this module, for individual levels of skill will be improved by reasoning and experience - if you regularly pose problems to be solved by brains and not brawl, your players will find this module immediately to their liking.

I say Wick needed to RTFM and that experience of it sucked is his own damn fault for not doing so. Shit I had this when I was 14 and I got the damn point of it when it came to using it in my campaign.

For me this meant I didn't use it until a few years later when it made sense that the players would uncover rumors of it during a campaign.

John Wick, like pretty much every other successful game designer outside of Shane Lacy Hensely, has VERY strong opinions on gaming..

Other completely obvious news at 11.

QuoteThe GM had characters ready for them and handed them out. He explained my unique position and gave each of them 70,000 gold pieces to buy magic items and equipment.

I said, "Wait a second. Seventy thousand?"

The GM nodded. "That's right."

"One gold piece feeds a family of four for a year and each of us has seventy thousand gold pieces?"

He nodded again. "Yup."

In what version of D&D does 1 GP feed a family of four for a year? Is that really what 1 GP is worth in 5E or did John Wick invent that?

1GP isn't going to get shit much less feed a family for a year.  John Wick is just full of shit.

Quote from: Orphan81;881878John Wick, like pretty much every other successful game designer outside of Shane Lacy Hensely, has VERY strong opinions on gaming..

Other completely obvious news at 11.

And like a couple of other successful game designers. Is a jackass. Some are worse. Much worse.

Other completely obvious news at 9.

Quote from: Snowman0147;8818831GP isn't going to get shit much less feed a family for a year.  John Wick is just full of shit.

Well, it will feed 1 person 25 days if they eat only poor meals (Which is better than squalid). A poor meal is 6cp,  Modest meals are 3sp, so hey 1 gp can feed a person for 3 days if they eat well! Bumping up to comfortable meals is 5sp, which means only 2 days...   (And yes, this does represent enough food for one day at least).

Edit: Though 70,000 Gold is enough for your character to retire to an awesome Manor house and eat well for the rest of their days...

However when a DM gives out gold for "Buying magical equipment" I don't see it as your character actually going to ye olden magical shoppe and picking up a +1 sword... I'm pretty damn sure it's suppose to just be the closest equivalent of a point buy system for your character.. to represent items they've discovered on their journeys up to X level (X being any level above 1st).

Quote from: Bren;881882In what version of D&D does 1 GP feed a family of four for a year? Is that really what 1 GP is worth in 5E or did John Wick invent that?

Not even in OA. 1 Chi'en (5gp value) will buy 1 Koku of Rice(5-6 bushels). Enough to feed 1 person for 1 year. That would come to the equivalent of 20gp to feed a family of four for a year.

In 5e living at Squalid level lifestyle, which includes some sort of dwelling, costs about 36gp for one person for a year. About 146gp for a family of four. Double that to bump up to Poor level and better living conditions.

In AD&D it came to about 55gp per year for one person. About 3times that if you lived off standard iron rations.

Quote from: Manzanaro;881818To tell the truth, I think Wick just makes some of this stuff up.

He sure does.  When I started in on that link, I didn't get past the bit where he proclaims, very patronizingly, about how Gaming Stores Didn't Exist When TOH Came Out.  Which is bullshit, because when I played TOH, it was in a dedicated gaming store.  The store owner/DM took great pants-rubbing glee in snuffing us all, which may have contributed to that being the one and only time I ever gamed in a gaming store.

But, withal, I think Warthur called it: that if you weren't a TSR fanboy, you had no way of knowing that TOH was a tournament module intended to produce TPKs.  I sure didn't, and TOH embodied to me ever after everything I felt sucked about D&D and dungeons; it was the better part of a decade before I troubled myself to play in a straight D&D campaign again, and that not for very long.

I don't particularly agree with Justin. My copy of the module is I think the original 1978 release with the pink and red cover. The text I read isn't verbatim what Wick writes, but it is close and roughly matches his point. The text I have is:

Quote6. THE FACE OF THE GREAT GREEN DEVIL: The other fork of the path leads right up to an evil-appearing devil face set in mosaic at the corridor's end. (SHOW YOUR PLAYERS GRAPHIC #6). The face has a huge O of a mouth; it is dead black. The whole area radiates evil and magic if detected for. The mouth opening is similar to a (fixed) sphere of annihilation, but it is about 3' in diameter -- plenty of room for those who wish to leap in and be completely and forever destroyed.

Justin claims that the adventure "It tells the DM specifically NOT to give helpful hints or mislead players into taking certain courses of action."

However, I think the ending sentence has a tongue-in-cheek quality to it which encourages precisely the outcome of being destroyed. (Especially given kids playing.) From what I've heard, lots of players have fallen for this. Because there is a graphic, players assume that there is something to figure out here, but there are no clues or warnings.

According to the description of the sphere of annihilation, any matter that comes into contact with the sphere is instantly sucked into the void and utterly destroyed. Basically, the only thing that can happen here is that players are annihilated with no warning. Particularly after the first character touches it and disappears, players want to figure out what happened to that character - but there is no way to find out.

--

According to my text, Justin also mis-corrects about the false entrances. The trap activated by opening the door is the roof collapsing - which does 5d10 damage with no saving throw. There is no amount of checking or description to indicate what the trap is.

The other false entrance specifically tells the DM the following -

QuoteThey will hear a rumbling from behind (or beside if some are at 30' within) them. At this instant begin slowly counting to 10 -- about 1.5 seconds per count -- and if you reach 10 before any player has reacted as noted below, the huge stone block, 10' thick, has slid shut and completely sealed off the passageway. This block cannot be moved or force back. Trapped characters can escape only by the following means: disintegrate, phasedoor, stone-flesh (assuming a sufficient quantity of the block can be changed), transmute rock-mud, wish. Players giving notice that their character is running out will be able to cover 1' of distance/1" of movement rate for their character/count. Thus, a base 6" movement rate means that the character can cover 6' of distance in the space of a single count. Mentally note such characters actions, and when the 10 count is finished, compute where each character is.

I remember pretty well exactly how this worked out.

QuoteGM: The floor shifts and you hear a rumbling behind you. 10.
Player: I turn around. What do I see?
GM: 9.
Player: My character is looking in that direction. Is there anything to see?
GM: 8
Player: Is the floor dropping away?
GM: 7
Player: Is there still a path to run back out?
GM: 6
Player: My character will react based on what he sees.
GM: 5
Player: What the fuck is happening?
GM: 4
Player: Is a voice actually counting down?
etc.

This is fucking stupid resolution, which encourages the PCs to shout out blind responses based on having no information about what their characters actually see and hear. If the floor was dropping away or the whole rear of the corridor were collapsing, then running back into that would be suicide.

It might not be the worse module of all time, but it's got a lot of dumb-ass shit in there.

What I dislike about Tomb of Horros how video game-y the module is.  The whole point of it is to learn where to how to deal with whatever puzzles by dying.  Secondly, it's designed to challenge the player.  It's the epitome of having the characters be the monopoly piece with which to navigate the game board maze.  It dies, you pick out a new one and start over.

Doesn't make it bad, just not my thing.

Quote from: Snowman0147;8818831GP isn't going to get shit much less feed a family for a year.  John Wick is just full of shit.

In 5th edition, 1 gp will buy 100 pounds of wheat - which will probably feed a family for a month or maybe a little more, but not nearly a year.

In original AD&D, there is no price for wheat, but 1 gp will buy 66 chickens - so prices are fairly comparable. (In 5th ed, 1 gp will buy 50 chickens.)

It's hyperbole, but then, 100 pounds of wheat is more than "shit".