Quote from: Bren;886996Please do. Be sure to include at least one anecdote demonstrating how it was the module designer's fault that you behaved like an ass to your friends when you were 12 or 13. Bonus points if you include anecdotes of you being an ass to your friends more recently to show how much you've learned since you were 12 or 13.

...or how little...

Quote from: Omega;886978Its alot like many sequel and knock-off movies and comics. The producers havent a clue what made the first interesting and so focus on one element people mentioned and then wonder why the knock-offs arent met with the same welcome.

If all someone sees in Tomb of Horrors is "kill players" then they have totally and abysmally missed the point. And from posts right here some people have willfully missed the point so they can have an excuse to bitch.

Correct!

Is there some pressing reason given for going into Murderwo- I mean the Tomb of Horrors aside from loot?

Quote from: Omega;886978Its alot like many sequel and knock-off movies and comics. The producers havent a clue what made the first interesting and so focus on one element people mentioned and then wonder why the knock-offs arent met with the same welcome.

If all someone sees in Tomb of Horrors is "kill players" then they have totally and abysmally missed the point. And from posts right here some people have willfully missed the point so they can have an excuse to bitch.

This is generally the beef I have with "genres" and "styles" as such. There's such a strong tendency for it to be defined by the very worst elements. Take anime. A lot of them have interesting stories, interesting characters, interesting premises. But what actually defines the genre? Poor quality animation and art, at least one goofy premise, and at least one character so whacky as to harm suspension of disbelief while not being the least bit sympathetic.

Except Gygax himself said that the whole point was to kill off high level characters. :idunno:

Quote from: Nexus;887320Is there some pressing reason given for going into Murderwo- I mean the Tomb of Horrors aside from loot?

Absolutely None At All.

My interest in the place was lost magic. And got about nil. The rest of the group was hoping for some magic items, of which there was not that much either. Which may have been part of Acerack's big joke on adventurers.

Quote from: Rincewind1;887328Except Gygax himself said that the whole point was to kill off high level characters. :idunno:

Except he didnt.

The module was created to kill off stupid high level characters. The ones that got to those high levels without ever learning a thing. And then set things up such that a relatively low level group can beat the thing with thinking and being careful. Ackerack is Gygax laughing at the braggarts and pretenders.

Its like the initial reactions to the 5e Hoard of the Dragon Queen module. People bitched left and right at how broken the module was because their characters insisted on charging in and attacking everything and got wiped out by a bunch of kobolds. (The module does have alot of broken. But not there.)

Quote from: Omega;887388Absolutely None At All.

My interest in the place was lost magic. And got about nil. The rest of the group was hoping for some magic items, of which there was not that much either. Which may have been part of Acerack's big joke on adventurers.

Thanks, I was wondering about that.

Quote from: Omega;887388Absolutely None At All.

My interest in the place was lost magic. And got about nil. The rest of the group was hoping for some magic items, of which there was not that much either. Which may have been part of Acerack's big joke on adventurers.

There's actually some really neat, unique stuff you can walk out with. If you can manage to get it.

Quote from: Omega;887388Absolutely None At All.

My interest in the place was lost magic. And got about nil. The rest of the group was hoping for some magic items, of which there was not that much either. Which may have been part of Acerack's big joke on adventurers.

I think ToH's rationalization for a underground labyrinth that's wall to wall complicated sadistic traps is pretty cool. The lack of a reason to go in would probably make it fall flat for most of my groups barring just running it as a night's pick up game survival run with pre-gens.

Quote from: Nexus;887553I think ToH's rationalization for a underground labyrinth that's wall to wall complicated sadistic traps is pretty cool. The lack of a reason to go in would probably make it fall flat for most of my groups barring just running it as a night's pick up game survival run with pre-gens.

That's what we did.  Still didn't really like it in general.

Quote from: Omega;887390The module was created to kill off stupid high level characters. The ones that got to those high levels without ever learning a thing.

How is that possible? I mean, if you don't learn, your character gets killed fairly quickly. Leroy Jenkins and all that. So then you start with a new 1st level character and... they get killed soon, too.

The only way you can get to high level while being stupid is if the DM fudges things to keep you alive, or lets you start new characters at the level of the one who died. Which is to say, stupid players have characters who get to high level because the DM let them.

After failing to let their stupidity kill them off for several months or even years, it would be rather churlish of the DM to then turn around and kill them all off for being stupid.

It was a tournament module. That's enough to explain it.

Quote from: Lunamancer;887401There's actually some really neat, unique stuff you can walk out with. If you can manage to get it.

No scrolls worth mention and no spellbooks. A limited use Gem if True Seeing, a Ring of Protection +1 (which you may have to sacrifice), some Healing Potions, a Bag of Holding or a random set of stuff ranging from wool to Bracers of Defence AC 6 (we got 5 pieces of jewelry), Potion of Diminuition (which you can find only after getting totally screwed), 6 random scrolls, a +4 Defender Sword, 2 cursed swords and a Cursed Spear of Backbiting.

The monetary treasure was more usefull for the EXP haul.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;887653After failing to let their stupidity kill them off for several months or even years, it would be rather churlish of the DM to then turn around and kill them all off for being stupid.

This seems to assume the characters have leveled under the same DM, or in the same campaign.

I mentioned earlier, I think a good prepared adventure, published or otherwise, should be self-regulating. Meaning that although it might be designed with particular character levels in mind--10th to 14th in the case of Tomb of Horrors--the risks and rewards of the adventure are set up in such a way that higher level characters have more to lose, lower level characters can reap proportionately larger rewards.

The fact is, the Tomb can kill a 30th level character just as easily as a 15th or a 10th. You can come in armed with artifacts and relics and watch as they're teleported away from you when you step through one of the traps. On the other hand, a 6th level character could beat this adventure, and the XP reward for destroying Acererak is enough to instantly level an 8th level character.

What I like about this sort of self-regulating nature is I feel it makes the DM less of a dick. To me a dick DM is one who needs to control every little thing. Like demanding the only characters who come through this adventure be between levels 10 and 14.

I say if you want to try and run your level 30 character through this adventure, have at it. If you're a shitty player who never deserved that character, kiss his has goodbye. If you're a great player who does deserve a level 30 character, you might find it fun but easy overall, and you won't come out with your character much improved.

Or if you want a challenge, run your level 6-8 character through it. If it turns out you still have a few things to learn, well I guess it's better than losing a character of twice that level. But if you really are smart enough to get through it, congrats. Take an instant level. Have a good-aligned siren companion to help you out on your future adventures.

This module handles it all beautifully.

Quote from: Omega;887662No scrolls worth mention and no spellbooks. A limited use Gem if True Seeing, a Ring of Protection +1 (which you may have to sacrifice), some Healing Potions, a Bag of Holding or a random set of stuff ranging from wool to Bracers of Defence AC 6 (we got 5 pieces of jewelry), Potion of Diminuition (which you can find only after getting totally screwed), 6 random scrolls, a +4 Defender Sword, 2 cursed swords and a Cursed Spear of Backbiting.

The monetary treasure was more usefull for the EXP haul.

A good aligned siren companion?

A gem worth 100,000 fucking gps?