TheRPGSite

http://www.alderac.com/blog/2015/11/03/a-return-to-7th-sea/



I was a big fan of the 7th Sea back in the early 2000's but after reading John Wick's blog about D&D not being a "real" RPG and his flawed reasoning behind it, coupled with his desire for "modern RPG" design, makes me feel like this won't be the product for me.

Anyone ever play 50 Fathoms?

If anyone says D&D is not a rpg can't be any good at making a rpg.  If I wasn't trying to run Exalted on this site I can show you guys a pirate game through my handcrafted system.

QuoteI'm also very excited to see the game rejuvenated with modern game design and technology

THIS does not bode well for me. I loved 7th Sea and I loved Wick's work back with AEG, but his later games went in a direction I haven't enjoyed.


There is an email list you can join to get info as it develops.
http://www.sailthe7thsea.com/

Quote from: Snowman0147;862950If anyone says D&D is not a rpg can't be any good at making a rpg.  If I wasn't trying to run Exalted on this site I can show you guys a pirate game through my handcrafted system.

I have to disagree here, John Wick is one of the most talented RPG writers out there. Yes, he has an Ego the size of a Mountain, but he's talented. He created L5R and 7th Sea, and Houses of the Blooded along with several other well known games, beyond his work with "Wicked Fantasy" and his excellent GM guides "Play Dirty 1 &2".

This has me excited, I have been using Honor&Intrigue to run 7th Sea, but I'd love to see what John's new fresh take is.

:( :D :(

God dammit. I had finally shaken off my desire to fix that cruddy system and resolved to leave 7th Sea in the past. This is after I cleaned up the original rules from top to bottom in an attempt to get it to work, but after two frustrating campaigns it was like a marriage on the rocks. I was constantly haunted by a desire to convert it to a more modern D&D ruleset, but resisted, my rational mind enumerating the pitfalls of such a project.

And now here we are once more Mr. Wick, you genius asshole you. I never thought that property would see the light of day again, least of all under your control. I can already feel the old flames of passion lighting up my imagination, threatening to tear my focus away from the excellent 5e. Oh how my brother and friends will groan.

Lots of questions here:
- How much will he try to stay close to the original rules for the benefit of established fans, if at all? I know he's a fiery revolutionary and all that, but surely part of the point here is to cash in on the old school fanbase, right?
- Where will the meta-plot stand? I'd personally like to see it pushed away into the shadows, the way 4e Legend of the Five Rings became "meta-plot neutral".
- Will the Syrneth-as-alien-invaders element be minimized or swept under the carpet? Wick never sounded thrilled by how sci fi the setting got after he left.
- Will swordsman schools exist in whatever new rules-light hippy paradigm he's likely to use? They were one of the systems that clashed most with the original rules and I had a devil of a time trying to make them perform as intended. You can't really have free-wheeling improvisational combat paired with strict schools that dictate certain maneuvers are only available to certain people.
- Will some of the secret societies get dialed back to their original low-key write-ups? That would be great, as some of them "evolved" in such messy directions that they distorted the setting (Die Kreuzritter, Sophia's Daughters)
- Will players who want to be sorcerers still get guilt-tripped by the setting in unfun ways? Nothing kills the swashbuckling elan quite like finding out mid-game that your magic is wrecking reality through no ill-intent of your own.
- How much shit is he going to get for "cultural appropriation" and "celebrating intolerance" once he starts dealing with the setting's pseudo-crusades, pseudo-China, and pseudo-Arabia?

On his facebook page, John has already made 2 promises for the new 7th Sea..

No Aliens
No D20

I doubt I'll ever buy a role playing game written by someone who doesn't understand what a role playing game is!

Quote from: JohnWickthe focus of an RPG is to tell stories

Quote from: JohnWickroleplaying game: a game in which the players are rewarded for making choices that are consistent with the character's motivations or further the plot of the story.

Where did Wick say that D&D wasn't a real RPG?

Either way, I was underwhelmed by Houses of the Blooded. In particular, I was singularly unimpressed with the way it tries to borrow FATE's Compel mechanic without showing an understanding of the FATE point economy and balancing factors that make that mechanic actually function in practice.

Quote from: Warthur;863015Where did Wick say that D&D wasn't a real RPG?

http://johnwickpresents.com/games/game-designs/chess-is-not-an-rpg-the-illusion-of-game-balance/ (http://johnwickpresents.com/games/game-designs/chess-is-not-an-rpg-the-illusion-of-game-balance/)

Quote from: JohnWickThe first four editions of D&D are not roleplaying games.

Best case I foresee is that a new edition sparka the creation of some art I can use for my Honor+Intrigue game.

John Wick talks about the Chess article here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFqVdN09iyg), in a conversation with Zak S.  I think it's a really good, interesting conversation, but whether D&D is a role playing game or a war game, and what those terms mean.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- How much will he try to stay close to the original rules for the benefit of established fans, if at all? I know he's a fiery revolutionary and all that, but surely part of the point here is to cash in on the old school fanbase, right?

He should write two 7th Seas - one for traditional RPGers and one for the indie crowd. Offer two different experiences in the same setting.

While he's at it, he should also do a new card game (non-CCG) and a boardgame too. No reason not to make the most of his IP and reach out to fans in different mediums.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- Where will the meta-plot stand? I'd personally like to see it pushed away into the shadows, the way 4e Legend of the Five Rings became "meta-plot neutral".

If his other games are any indication, I expect the metaplot will become retreat into the background as setting history or potential adventure arcs.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- Will the Syrneth-as-alien-invaders element be minimized or swept under the carpet? Wick never sounded thrilled by how sci fi the setting got after he left.

I'm happy he said "no aliens" - I was never a Syrneth fan.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- Will swordsman schools exist in whatever new rules-light hippy paradigm he's likely to use? They were one of the systems that clashed most with the original rules and I had a devil of a time trying to make them perform as intended. You can't really have free-wheeling improvisational combat paired with strict schools that dictate certain maneuvers are only available to certain people.

I actually liked the swordsman schools and the idea that certain techniques are unique to certain schools, but I agree those rules need work.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- Will some of the secret societies get dialed back to their original low-key write-ups? That would be great, as some of them "evolved" in such messy directions that they distorted the setting (Die Kreuzritter, Sophia's Daughters)

The secret societies always seemed to me as a ploy to sell more splatbooks. They seemed too powerful in the setting, almost putting nations in the background. Maybe that was the point, but that didn't work for me.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- Will players who want to be sorcerers still get guilt-tripped by the setting in unfun ways? Nothing kills the swashbuckling elan quite like finding out mid-game that your magic is wrecking reality through no ill-intent of your own.

I'm good with magic have consequences, but that does affect the tone of the setting which in 7th Sea always seemed best when it was light, heroic and reminiscent of stuff like Errol Flynn and Pirates of the Caribbean.  

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- How much shit is he going to get for "cultural appropriation" and "celebrating intolerance" once he starts dealing with the setting's pseudo-crusades, pseudo-China, and pseudo-Arabia?

Lots of shit...or none. It all depends if the SJWs are in the mood to eat one of their indie luminaries. My bet is someone is going to nibble at him and see if the nibble becomes a feeding frenzy or whether John gets a pass as a sacred cow.

Quote from: Bren;863032Best case I foresee is that a new edition sparka the creation of some art I can use for my Honor+Intrigue game.

Bren, have you read the original edition source material?  There is a TON of stuff to steal for any game set in the periods are games are.  And a cleaned up system that gave the same response from the players would be GOLD.  You can ask anyone who complains about the system in all its brokenness why they continue/ed to play and every one of them will tell you the same thing: it is FUN!

Tom

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- How much will he try to stay close to the original rules for the benefit of established fans, if at all? I know he's a fiery revolutionary and all that, but surely part of the point here is to cash in on the old school fanbase, right?

Agreed.  It's gotta quack like a duck...err...look and smell like 7th Sea, even if it looks different around the edges.  If you can't play a big old Eisen mercenary wielding a 2 and a half handed sword forged of dragonbone, I'm not sure you can really call it 7th Sea.

Quote- Where will the meta-plot stand? I'd personally like to see it pushed away into the shadows, the way 4e Legend of the Five Rings became "meta-plot neutral".

Just a guess here, but given the state of the market and Wick's small operation, I'm not sure he could possibly support a metaplot driven splat treadmill like the original game.  

Quote- Will the Syrneth-as-alien-invaders element be minimized or swept under the carpet? Wick never sounded thrilled by how sci fi the setting got after he left.

I suspect the Syrneth will still be there (see point one), but their origins (except for maybe one) will probably be swept back under the rug of mystery (where they should be).  I thought the syrneth, coupled with the Explorer's Society, was damn cool because it enabled you to play weird D&D dungeoncrawls with over-the-top swashbuckling heroes.  They worked beautifully and had an internal logic built into the game.  I'd be sad to see them go just so some people wouldn't have to bitch about genre purity.

Quote- Will swordsman schools exist in whatever new rules-light hippy paradigm he's likely to use? They were one of the systems that clashed most with the original rules and I had a devil of a time trying to make them perform as intended. You can't really have free-wheeling improvisational combat paired with strict schools that dictate certain maneuvers are only available to certain people.

Again, see point 1.  I expect swordsman styles would have to be there in some form, even if they have completely different mechanics.

Quote- Will some of the secret societies get dialed back to their original low-key write-ups? That would be great, as some of them "evolved" in such messy directions that they distorted the setting (Die Kreuzritter, Sophia's Daughters)

Agreed.  But it would also be cool if the new edition were backwards compatible enough that if I really loved Sophia's Daughters (Hypothetically.  Work with me here.) that I could reintroduce a lot of the fluff from the original edition without breaking the game.

Quote- Will players who want to be sorcerers still get guilt-tripped by the setting in unfun ways? Nothing kills the swashbuckling elan quite like finding out mid-game that your magic is wrecking reality through no ill-intent of your own.

We played for years and that sort of stuff never really came up.  Granted, I think we only ever used Glamour and maybe one or two characters had it.  Like the Syrneth, I expect a lot of that will get swept under the rug.  Hell, my understanding is the original concept only had three types of sorcery (glamour, porte and sorte) and the rest were added by administrative directive.  So we may be looking at a more conceptually pure version of the game a year from now.  I have no idea.

Quote- How much shit is he going to get for "cultural appropriation" and "celebrating intolerance" once he starts dealing with the setting's pseudo-crusades, pseudo-China, and pseudo-Arabia?

Well I hope John Wick lives up to his reputation and beats those people to death with his monstrous ego.  More seriously, I don't expect a big sourcebook treadmill for a new 7th Sea edition, so what does it matter so long as the core book is playable?

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;863052Bren, have you read the original edition source material?  There is a TON of stuff to steal for any game set in the periods are games are.  And a cleaned up system that gave the same response from the players would be GOLD.  You can ask anyone who complains about the system in all its brokenness why they continue/ed to play and every one of them will tell you the same thing: it is FUN!

Tom

No, I haven't.

I'm somewhat familiar with the game. I've looked at stuff that's published on the web with setting information from various source books, I picked up a 7th Sea Character Handbook/quick-reference guide I found somewhere or other, I've read a fair number of threads on 7th Sea (mostly at the BP), and I have the four part comic "Absolution."

From those various sources Theah appears to me to be an historical pastiche setting with magic that is at least as common as what one sees in all of the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise put together and then some. Magic is probably more common than in PotC since AFAIK PCs can and do wield magic in the setting. While that is less magic than a game run with say the Pathfinder rules, that's way too much magic for the tone of the game I want to run.

On top of that, I'd have to go through the process of reversing the real world to pastiche process by turning Avalon back to England, Montaigne back to France, etc. While that might be less work for me than researching and creating something new, adapting a pastiche doesn't provide the enjoyment I get from including the real world stuff I research in my game setting and adventures. So I've pretty much ignored 7th Sea (aside from the pictures and one villain I swiped) in favor of games like Flashing Blades, At Rapiers Point, All for One: Regime Diabolique, and Savage World of Solomon Kane that are set in some version of earth's history.

That's not to say that some people won't enjoy a pastiche more than actual or alt history, just that a pastiche isn't what I'm looking for.

On top of that, by most accounts the system kind of sucks. Given all those problems 7th Sea hasn't seemed like a good product to spend my money or time on.

What do you enjoy most about the setting? What gets you excited about the game or setting?

I like the enlightened pro-science Catholic Church in 7th Sea. I also like the fantasy pastiche because it allows me to run a lighter game. The real world at the time was really nasty and the pastiche of Avalon not England allows me to avoid the "misery tourism" aspect of historical gaming.

The fluffier Hollywood twirling mustaches, daring do, heroes and damsels and heroic damsels Disneyesque tone of 7th Sea works for me especially because I run Warhammer where I take the real world nastiness and amp that up. I'm all about Grimhammer. I just bought the Hubris Kickstarter for the DCC RPG which amps the "evil that men do" to 11. I love fantasy horror and I'm a gorehound, but when I want to play something more whimsical, but not silly, 7th Sea invokes Disneyland Pirates / Errol Flynn / Princess Bride and does the job.

Quote from: Orphan81;862965I have to disagree here, John Wick is one of the most talented RPG writers out there. Yes, he has an Ego the size of a Mountain, but he's talented. He created L5R and 7th Sea, and Houses of the Blooded along with several other well known games, beyond his work with "Wicked Fantasy" and his excellent GM guides "Play Dirty 1 &2".

This has me excited, I have been using Honor&Intrigue to run 7th Sea, but I'd love to see what John's new fresh take is.

I think you're conflating ego and self-assurance with 'talent'.  This is the same man who once claimed that his L5R games were so much more 'lethal' than the base game he made, which implied his gamers were somehow 'better'.

Make the game you want, let it speak for itself.

Wick's L5R convention games were very good. They mostly involved the Scorpion, and thus nasty and deadly. I remember one event where we survived, succeeded, but got blackmailed so badly and failed so badly to convince the court we were innocent that half the PCs whacked themselves and the other half fled as ronin. The crab samurai PC however was most awesome. He just started laughing at the Scorpion, howling at the idiocy of the court, then walked into the Shadowlands killing everything until he was taken down.

When Wick demo'd L5R, he did suggest taking out a wound level or two if you wanted a more lethal, more realistic game. He often talked about katanas being 3 foot razor blades slicing through meat like butter. That may be how he runs his home game, I don't know.

I took out 1 wound level for some games and I felt the already dangerous game became too deadly even for me. In L5R 1e RAW, an Oni can one shot PC not built to take damage - air sorcerers, courtly samurai, etc.

Personally L5R 1e had combat "just right" for me. You rarely survived two hits, but you could survive one most of the time. Few PCs were built to suffer 3 solid hits and live. FOR ME, that's the deadliness that works in a samurai game (or modern combat too really).

For those who can stomach 4chan, there was a mildly entertaining discussion of this news and whether or not Wick is as good as they say (and a bonus mention of RPGPundit):

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/43500707/7th-sea-is-back

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863396For those who can stomach 4chan, there was a mildly entertaining discussion of this news and whether or not Wick is as good as they say (and a bonus mention of RPGPundit):

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/43500707/7th-sea-is-back

It's sadly 404 now. What did it say about me?

Quote from: RPGPundit;864316It's sadly 404 now. What did it say about me?

It was a throwaway post in which you were literally just mentioned.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;864317It was a throwaway post in which you were literally just mentioned.

If I recall correctly he was equated to Wick as a person who makes extreme statements and kicks hornet nests for a thrill rather than constructive discussion.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;864359If I recall correctly he was equated to Wick as a person who makes extreme statements and kicks hornet nests for a thrill rather than constructive discussion.

Like I said, a throw away post. :D

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863396For those who can stomach 4chan, there was a mildly entertaining discussion of this news and whether or not Wick is as good as they say (and a bonus mention of RPGPundit):

http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/43500707/7th-sea-is-back

why ? is there some thing wrong with 1d4chan this is the 1st time iv heard of it ?

Short interview with Wick got posted on youtube by some guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEmwA7F3Oo8

Poland-Lithuania addition confirmed. Interesting that he went with that instead of the more obvious Portugal, Switzerland, Transylvania, etc.

The New World is also confirmed. Pro: fans had been bellyaching for that since the birth of the game. Con: remember what happened to Monte Cook when he tried to do something with pseudo-native Americans?

Other note, the character sheet will apparently be very familiar, but with a few additions. I hope he takes stuff off too in that case, as the game needed to be simpler in the first place.

EDIT: There's also a recent reddit thread about what people think needs fixing
https://www.reddit.com/r/7thSea/comments/3t4rpc/changes_you_would_like_to_see_in_a_new_version_of/

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;868175The New World is also confirmed.

Oh this ought to be good.
:popcorn:
Yeah, it will be a while before the fur flies, but it will be a great display of idiocy, hypocrisy, or both at some point.

Now people can call him a racist for how he depicts Native Americans no matter how he depicts them or bitch about "the erasure" if he leaves them out to avoid bullshit accusations of racism.

Quote from: yosemitemike;868497Now people can call him a racist for how he depicts Native Americans no matter how he depicts them or bitch about "the erasure" if he leaves them out to avoid bullshit accusations of racism.

That's how you appeal to all customers.

JG

On the plus side, we can now have piracy because that wasn't possible without a New World analogue.  Barbary Corsairs?  Never heard of them.

We also need to remove the infamous cap to have a proper pirating adventure.

Quote from: Snowman0147;868530We also need to remove the infamous cap to have a proper pirating adventure.

What do you mean by "cap"?

Quote from: yosemitemike;868525On the plus side, we can now have piracy because that wasn't possible without a New World analogue.  Barbary Corsairs?  Never heard of them.

There was no Africa equivalent either.

Quote from: jadrax;868590There was no Africa equivalent either.

There is, however, the Empire of the Crescent Moon.

Quote from: yosemitemike;868639There is, however, the Empire of the Crescent Moon.

Speaking of which, I wonder how Wick will 'fix' the Empire of the Crescent Moon and Cathay. The splat books for those two nations were quite terrible in my opinion, as they both tried to squash in all of the middle east and all of Asia respectively instead of being one simplified country like the rest of the setting. The result was a hugely confusing and produced a lot of redundant flavor and mechanics in a system too simple to handle pointless crunch.

Cathay also suffered from "Asia is better at everything" syndrome.

I have no faith in any RPG designed or published by a fool who thinks RPGs are nothing more than TV writer rooms conventions formalized into game products.

He doesn't get it. He never has. Unless (and until) he has his Come To Gygax (for lack of a better term) moment, he never will. Wick fundamentally misgroks the very medium, and instead should spend his time in the medium he so desperately wants to succeed in: writing speculative fiction.

Quote from: yosemitemike;868639There is, however, the Empire of the Crescent Moon.

There is, but there no reason for sea trade to go anywhere near there (and more importantly, a lot of reason to not go anywhere near there due to one of its seas being illegal to travel through and the other being separated by an nigh on non-navigable wall of flames).

But the main issue is 7th sea largely lacks any reasons for long distance trade. Aside from the difficulty of trading with the Empire of the Crescent Moon and Cathay, additionally there are no new areas to explore and exploit. There are no huge chests of gold plundered from the helpless natives as the natives are far from helpless and typically have no gold, gems or the like.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;868887I have no faith in any RPG designed or published by a fool who thinks RPGs are nothing more than TV writer rooms conventions formalized into game products.

He doesn't get it. He never has. Unless (and until) he has his Come To Gygax (for lack of a better term) moment, he never will. Wick fundamentally misgroks the very medium, and instead should spend his time in the medium he so desperately wants to succeed in: writing speculative fiction.

Yeah the video chat with Zak was interesting when Wick said something to the effect of "take what's the roleplaying part of a roleplaying game and put it in my right hand, I don't know what that looks like".

People who roleplay know what that is, and know you'll never see what that looks like, because roleplaying is a mental state.  No one will ever be able to tell why my character did what they did.  Was it for RP purposes, to gain mechanical advantage, to increase drama, for at the table social reasons?  Only I'm ever going to know for sure.

Roleplaying can't be defined through specific role-playing mechanics, the very act of trying by definition removes the player from the character and at best becomes a meta-layer, an OOC narrative control mechanic.

I did like the 3 Goats Gruff analogy.

"But, what happens if you fail your strength check and the troll eats your goat?"

"You roll up a new goat, I guess."

That answer was surprising and unsatisfying to Mr. Wick, and so obvious to, I'm guessing, the rest of us.

I did like the chess discussion after it, too. That never really found it's way home, but I did enjoy the discussion.

Boy I hope the following isn't legit. It sure doesn't sound like what he said in the video interview I linked earlier:

http://forum1.aimoo.com/Revenants7thSea/Freiburg-Gazette/AEG-Sells-7th-Sea-to-John-Wick-1-2426386.html

Key quote:

Quote from: Dark ProphetI wish I could say this made me happy, but it unfortunately fills me with dread.  Before you dismiss my dread, answer this question.  When was the last time you purchased and liked a John Wick game?  I've partially seen what he has planned for 7th Sea while at Tucson Comic Con and I wanted to cry.  What he envisions is not 7th Sea.  There is no dice, he is completely changing sword schools into abominations and completely re-writing all of the countries.  My words are incapable of conveying my despair.

Does anyone know more about this?

It sounds like the wailing of a drama queen.  The swordsman schools have been change into abominations?  What does that melodramatic bullshit even mean?  The swordsman school and nation descriptions were probably the two things he heard the most wailing about after the first edition.  It would hardly be a surprise if he decided to revise them significantly.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;868175The New World is also confirmed. Pro: fans had been bellyaching for that since the birth of the game. Con: remember what happened to Monte Cook when he tried to do something with pseudo-native Americans?

My answer to that would be: don't do pseudo-native peoples. The French RPG Guildes had a similar theme, the exploration of a New World continent. To communicate the exoticism and strangeness of the place and its peoples they made it exotic and strange for the players as well. It was a high fantasy setting with colorful flora and fauna and nature laws that worked differently, more Avatar than Conquest of Paradise.
(The second edition of the game was named Guildes: El Dorado and used Conquistadores-style imagery on the cover, though. I don't know if they had changed the nature of the continent to reflect that.)

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;869464My answer to that would be: don't do pseudo-native peoples.

If you do that, people will bitch about "the Erasure".

I'd ask Wick on facebook about the diceless thing*, but I use facebook so rarely I'm not sure what the etiquette is for sending messages to semi-famous people you're only following, not friends with.

*He's posting photos of his new 7th Sea work there too by the way.

I would be surprised if he went with a diceless system for the new 7th Sea.  There are a few diceless games out there but it doesn't seem to suit the 7th Sea setting at all.  They are usually high concept things like Nobilis.

Talked to Wick on facebook, he says dice are in.

I'm in wait and see mode. I love 7th Sea but it had serious issues.

Facebook:

QuoteJohn Wick
10 hrs · Phoenix, AZ ·

Apparently, I'm making #‎7thsea‬ Diceless. Wish someone told me. Would have saved me a lot of trouble.

Quote from: James Gillen;869615Facebook:

Yes, that's after I asked him.

I got this email today...

(https://hostedimages-cdn.aweber-static.com/NTA1MDQy/original/bb5e33160d9447d4a35b065a72e8435b.gif)
Welcome to the Year of 7th Sea!

Hey folks. This is John Wick. I just wanted to thank all of you for taking the time to sign up for this mailing list. We've got some exciting news to announce!

In short, 2016 is going to be the "Year of 7th Sea." We plan on releasing not only a new core book, but new sourcebooks as well. And not just sourcebooks about the Théan nations, oh no. We've got huge plans for the world of 7th Sea. Just huge. And we'll get into all of them, but before we do, let me say this again:

Thank you for letting us know that you're looking forward to a new edition of the game.

It's been sixteen years since I last visited the shores of Théah and a lot has changed. I've changed, you've changed... and Théah has changed. Yes, the continent has undergone some transformations in sixteen years. I suspect you'll want to know about them. And you'll also want to know what's stayed the same. Let's you and I take a trip across the continent and take a look at some old friends... and some new ones.

My Loyal Crew

First, let me talk a little bit about who's going to be leading us on this little jaunt. There's me, of course, but there's also Mark Diaz Truman. He's running all the business aspects of the project. Mark's been in charge of the money matters at JWP since our first Kickstarter, way back in 2012. He's organizing and designing the forthcoming 7th Sea: Second Edition Kickstarter, and when we launch, he'll be handling any issues or questions that come up.

Second, there's the design team: Mike Curry and Rob Justice. Mike and Rob have been friends of mine for a long time and ran the Bear Swarm Podcast for years. They both have keen minds and great insight into what makes a good RPG tick. The three of us have been working on the revised system for 7th Sea (more on that in a moment) and we've been talking a lot about how the world.

We're planning a beautiful book too... so we've got some great folks putting together the final layout. Our art director is Marissa Kelly, responsible for the Epyllion game about little dragons and art director for a whole bunch of other companies, including Evil Hat and Storium. Thomas Deeny—you might know him from the new Firefly RPG from MWP—will be handling the graphic design of the Kickstarter and Quick Start.

The More Things Change...

7th Sea: Second Edition is going to see some changes from the first edition. When folks ask me, "What kind of changes?" I often invoke Battletar Galactica. I was a huge fan of the original show—I was ten years old when it came out—and I'm a fan of the reboot as well. In the new BSG, we still had Adama, Apollo, Starbuck, Cylons and everything I loved about the first show. Sure, they had new faces—and in some cases, new genders—but they were still those same characters, just with an updated feel. New special effects, new writing, new cast but same show.

7th Sea: Second Edition is going to feel a lot like that. All the Nations are still there—Avalon, Castille, Vodacce, Ussura, etc.—but a few of them may have slight changes. Three of them have undergone slightly deeper changes. Eisen is going to be a whole lot scarier, for example. When you come across a small town of terrified villagers who look up to the castle on the hill where "the countess" lives... you'll know you're in Eisen. Ussura is getting a political facelift plus a new kind of sorcery that replaces shapeshifting. And the Vestenmennavanjar... well, let's just say you don't have to choose between "awesome merchant prince" and "awesome Viking raider" anymore; you can have both at the same time.

We're also adding a new nation to the list: The Sarmatian Commonwealth. I've visited Poland twice—going again this year!—and every time I go, I hear the same question: "Why is there no Poland in 7th Sea?" After getting asked this question about a dozen times in an hour, I spent some time researching 17th Century Poland and my answer to that question is now, "Because I was an idiot." I made a promise the last time I was there that if I ever re-did 7th Sea, I would include Poland. Well, I'm keeping that promise. I'm very excited for the Commonwealth and after you see what we've been doing with its politics, sorcery and history, I think you will be, too.

A New Engine

But the big question on most people's minds is this one: "Are you using d20's or Roll and Keep?" The answer is... neither.

I love R&K. I helped design it back in the day. But the fact of the matter is, rolling a handful of dice and keeping two of them... isn't very swashbuckly. If I want to feel like Errol Flynn, if I want to feel like the Dread Pirate Roberts, if I want to feel like Captain Jack Sparrow, I want to throw a handful of dice and use all of them. And that's the new system we've designed for 7th Sea: Second Edition.

We're still using Trait + Skill (the "Traits are too important" folks are going to be very happy) and we're still using Raises. Except now, you make Raises after the roll. Which means you get to feel like a Big Damn Hero.

We've still got Brute Squads and Villains, but we've refined how they work. In fact, a lot of the new system can fall under that category. "We've refined how they work." The new 7th Sea system is fast, elegant and dynamic. It isn't overly simple and it isn't like one of my "Little Games." But I feel it captures the cinematic feel we were going for with the first edition of the game, but didn't quite reach. RPGs have changed a lot in almost 20 years, and I want 7th Sea to still stand out!

The Kickstarter

I can't give you an exact date for the Kickstarter just yet, but I can tell you that you should keep your spyglasses on late January/early February. As in, the last week and first week. Yes, it's that close.
As for when you'll get a book in your grubby, swashbuckling paws... we want to release the book at Gencon. We're working 'round the clock to meet that goal right now. We might miss it... but I'd love to see all of you with 7th Sea: Second Edition books in August. That would put a real big smile on my face.

Expect more updates like this in the next few weeks as we put together the Kickstarter, finalize the system, and put out a Quick Start. Please let your friends know that this email list is the best way to way to get all the newest 7th Sea gossip...

2016 is the Year of 7th Sea. Oil up your swords, lift up them sails and run out the guns! It's going to be a fantastic year.
 
Take care,
 
John Wick
   
Sincerely,
John Wick
7thsea@johnwickpresents.com
4604 3rd St NW
Albuquerque NM 87107
USA

Quote from: Spinachcat;873045I got this email today...

I did too.

Quote from: WickUssura is getting a political facelift plus a new kind of sorcery that replaces shapeshifting.

I predict this will be an unpopular move, as from everything I've seen "animal shapeshifter from Russia" was one of the most popular character concepts in the campaign setting. It was flavorful and appropriate in a fairy tale way. I can't imagine anything better to replace it with, and his pseudo-Europe will suffer greatly from the loss of the mythically resonant shapeshifting magic if he doesn't put it back in somewhere.

Why on earth did he figure this needed tampering with? Yes the shapeshifting system was a little busted, but nothing fine-tuning couldn't fix.

Quote from: WickAnd the Vestenmennavanjar… well, let’s just say you don’t have to choose between “awesome merchant prince” and “awesome Viking raider” anymore; you can have both at the same time.

The stark divide between the Vesten/Vendel and the reasons for it were one of the most novel and interesting conflicts in the setting. Why drop that?

Quote from: WickWe’re also adding a new nation to the list: The Sarmatian Commonwealth.

This actually looks really fresh and good, especially judging from the 10 minute video on the subject he posted on his facebook page.

New system kills my interest dead. Gimmicky die-rolling mechanics make me grit my teeth at the best of times; on top of that, after Houses of the Blooded I've come to the realisation that Wick just doesn't "get" system to the extent that people give him credit for. (For instance, HotB tries to implement the FATE "compels" system without really understanding why it works in FATE.)

Yeah, I can't say I'm too interested. But I wasn't very interested in this setting the first time around either.

So Wick is doing a 7 days of 7th Sea thing with promos of the upcoming Kickstarter on February 9th.

If you are interested in following his shiznack, you can sign up for the daily email spamming here:
http://www.sailthe7thsea.com/

My take? The more I see, the less interested I become.

Fortunately, 7th Sea 1e works fine for me, and more importantly, Crimson Cutlass is still my go-to pirate RPG.

After thinking about it for a while, I lost interest when he said he was replacing one of the most popular sorceries and merging the two factions of Vendel/Vesten. If these were what he thought of as exciting news, then it's a sign that he doesn't actually understand what the game needs or the fans are likely to want.

First rule of new editions: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Quote from: Spinachcat;876888So Wick is doing a 7 days of 7th Sea thing with promos of the upcoming Kickstarter on February 9th.

If you are interested in following his shiznack, you can sign up for the daily email spamming here:
http://www.sailthe7thsea.com/

My take? The more I see, the less interested I become.

Fortunately, 7th Sea 1e works fine for me, and more importantly, Crimson Cutlass is still my go-to pirate RPG.

You probably know already, but there was a new 2015 edit, it's up on Amazon.

I'm hoping the edit leads to a hardcopy/POD release, Kindle is great but I find it not so useful for flipping back and forth at a table.

Quote from: Warthur;876918I'm hoping the edit leads to a hardcopy/POD release, Kindle is great but I find it not so useful for flipping back and forth at a table.

At this point there's really no reason for having a Kindle version and not a Createspace version (Createspace is Amazon's PoD service).  Hell if you start with the Createspace version, converting to Kindle is part of the process.

Anyone know how to contact the author to let them know about that?

Back on the main subject of the thread...

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;876895After thinking about it for a while, I lost interest when he said he was replacing one of the most popular sorceries and merging the two factions of Vendel/Vesten. If these were what he thought of as exciting news, then it's a sign that he doesn't actually understand what the game needs or the fans are likely to want.

First rule of new editions: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

This strikes me as further support for the idea that Wick is the George Lucas of gaming - he might have produced a hit or two through sheer luck and excellent support from his team, but he doesn't really understand why his successes succeeded, and he's become too much of an auteur visionary to work out how to produce something that will be enjoyed by people whose tastes don't perfectly mesh with his.

Hmmm...

Looking over the QuickStart draft that was sent out today.  Might be a bit too story-gamey for the crowd around here. Nothing a few strategic tweaks can't fix but...

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;877073Hmmm...

Looking over the QuickStart draft that was sent out today.  Might be a bit too story-gamey for the crowd around here. Nothing a few strategic tweaks can't fix but...

Tom

I'm more concerned that it will be too John Wicky. ;) But I'll take a look anyway. It's not like there is a plethora of active settings that fit the cape and sword or pirate genres.

Quote from: Bren;877074I'm more concerned that it will be too John Wicky. ;) But I'll take a look anyway. It's not like there is a plethora of active settings that fit the cape and sword or pirate genres.

I can't speak to that, as 7th Sea (and to some degree L5R) are the only games by Wick I own/read/played.

It doesn't seem terribly far removed from the original R/K system.  Minus the Keep part.  I will miss Drama Dice.  Hero Points just don't have the same flair (though they do pretty much the same thing here).  I haven't really wrapped my brain around the new wound system yet.  It seems counter-intuitive in that being wounded actually improves your lot in the short term.  The rules and the pre-gen sheets seem contradictory on this point, but it's only a draft, so... (and the idea of steadily raising the stakes is kinda cool, I'll admit).

Parts of it read rather...gamey.  Roll the dice, count groups of 10 (a Raise), spend Raises to do things in a round.  That will be faster than totaling kept dice, but not as quick as counting successes.  And I'm a bit unsure how to make everything run smoothly on Roll20, which is a major thing for my group.

Tom

Having read and played Houses of the Blooded, it comes as no surprise to me that Wick has turned out a product which is a messy mash of storygame aspirations and gamey-game mechanics.

Tom - Has he publicly post or did you get drafts as a backer?

Quote from: Blusponge;877082I can't speak to that, as 7th Sea (and to some degree L5R) are the only games by Wick I own/read/played.

His web site seems to be filled with broken links. Everything tab, Read More, or link that I clicked on gave me a

Quote from: Warthur;877093Having read and played Houses of the Blooded, it comes as no surprise to me that Wick has turned out a product which is a messy mash of storygame aspirations and gamey-game mechanics.

Remember that chat with Zak he had?  If you took what was roleplaying in a RPG and put it in your hand, he didn't know what that was.  He wants mechanics, and practically by definition, roleplaying doesn't involve mechanics.

Story can have mechanics, sure.
Gameplay has mechanics, of course.
Roleplaying? Nope.

Which is why anyone even remotely Forgey falls flat on their face every time with regards to designing a roleplaying game.  They believe in customized mechanics to enhance the experience and you CAN'T enhance roleplaying through mechanics without adding an OOC metalayer.  So they come up with all kinds of narrative mechanics and "gamey-game mechanics" (like that phrase btw).

Quote from: Bren;877106Tom - Has he publicly post or did you get drafts as a backer?

It was sent out to everyone subscribed to the mailing list. No commitments beyond that level of interest.  I believe there is a link a few pages back or look at the announcement post on my blog. Otherwise, let me know.

Having read through the whole thing, it's...interesting. Not bad. Certainly not KILL IT WITH FIRE as some around here have suggested. I'm a bit unclear how the whole thing holds together. But, it's a draft...of a QuickStart! So I'm not expecting everything laid out.  I love love love 7th Sea, warts and all, so I'm inclined to like it.  But as it stands, for me, the whole thing raises more questions than answers. The core mechanic is simple enough, and I get how to use it.  But...

I'll post more thoughts later when I have time.

Tom

I love 7th Sea, my group loves 7th Sea, my best campaigns may have been 7th Sea, that being said, I'm not crazy about the quickstart rules, a little too story gamey.

I'm fine with some dramatic editing, but this is a little overboard. One of the examples involves a villain and a hero trying to get to a door first in a burning building. They roll and the hero gets more success, so they get their first. The villain can now spend his raises doing something else (this part doesn't bother me to much) what does bother me is the villain declaring "I use a secret door to get out".

There was no secret door, but now suddenly there is. It leads to situations like "luckily I have this gun I randomly found!"  or "the guards here us fighting and show up to arrest the villain!"

I'm going to get it for the setting, but I will probably use honor and intruige for the rules.

From what I am hearing the setting isn't worth a shit.  I mean the changes to the setting and not the original setting.

Quote from: Orphan81;877151I'm fine with some dramatic editing, but this is a little overboard. One of the examples involves a villain and a hero trying to get to a door first in a burning building. They roll and the hero gets more success, so they get their first. The villain can now spend his raises doing something else (this part doesn't bother me to much) what does bother me is the villain declaring "I use a secret door to get out".

There was no secret door, but now suddenly there is. It leads to situations like "luckily I have this gun I randomly found!"  or "the guards here us fighting and show up to arrest the villain!"

Yeah, see.  That was exactly the story game part I read and though, "oh shit, the RPGsite is going to lose it."  And not for invalid reason.  I'm not a big fan of that sort of dramatic editing either.  Because that choice just invalidated everything the player gambled in one fell swoop.

Now, on the one hand, I get it.  It's a villain.  They operate on a different level than PC heroes.  Also, in the olden days, had one of my players been on the losing side of that bid and offered to spend a drama die to find another way out, I would have been OK with that.  But for just a Raise?  No.  Sorry.  That's gonna get scratched out.  Spend a hero point and under GM discretion?  Sure.  But just a success?  Pah!  No sir.  There is no spoon, I'm afraid.

All that said, that's about the easiest tweak in the book.  Either pitch dramatic editing altogether, or make it cost a hero point.  If that's the worst fix the game needs, I'm on board.

Tom

Quote from: CRKrueger;877108Which is why anyone even remotely Forgey falls flat on their face every time with regards to designing a roleplaying game.  They believe in customized mechanics to enhance the experience and you CAN'T enhance roleplaying through mechanics without adding an OOC metalayer.  So they come up with all kinds of narrative mechanics and "gamey-game mechanics" (like that phrase btw).

I don't get that impression from the Quickstart at all.  In fact, it looks like it plays pretty straight when you get right down to it.  Two people want to beat each other to the prize.  Contested roll.  Count successes.  The character with the highest # of successes wins.  That's about as old school as it gets.  No metalayer at all.

Now, you might argue that giving bonus dice for using a skill you haven't yet used in a "scene", or for adding flashing exposition adds a metalayer, but neither one of those things seems like a bad thing to me.  They encourage players to think creatively and try new things, but neither prevents the player who is stuck for a thought from succeeding at an in-game action.

I think part of the issue may be some of the jargon being used in this edition vs the old R/K edition.  Raises mean two different things.  Risks are simply actions.  Someone find me an old rant by John Wick going off on Gygax for reinventing RPG vocabulary (twice!), because if he did he needs to rethink that.  ;)

Tom

Quote from: Snowman0147;877155From what I am hearing the setting isn't worth a shit.  I mean the changes to the setting and not the original setting.

I think what you're hearing is wrong, they added a new country and made the Vesten more United, I haven't seen any full stop setting changes.

I am not saying burn it with fire...because fire is a valuable resource.

I am going with meh.

Adding Aztec Mexico into the setting is a bad idea though. 7th Sea Maztica might be fun for PCs to blunder and plunder.

Quote from: CRKrueger;876907You probably know already, but there was a new 2015 edit, it's up on Amazon.

I did not know!  Who did the 2015 edit???

7th Sea: Now extra Wicky!

Quote from: CRKrueger;876969At this point there's really no reason for having a Kindle version and not a Createspace version (Createspace is Amazon's PoD service).  Hell if you start with the Createspace version, converting to Kindle is part of the process.

Oh? I had no idea. *scribbles down for later reference* Thanks!

Quote from: Spinachcat;877173I did not know!  Who did the 2015 edit???

George Rahm and Joseph Hillmer (http://www.amazon.com/Crimson-Cutlass-Fundamentals-Book-One-ebook/dp/B00V0B88GQ)
It's only the first book, they're doing four I heard on The Miniatures Page.
Of course it wouldn't be complete without A Pirate Tarot Deck! (http://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Pirates-Lo-Scarabeo-Tarots/dp/0738712906) :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;877198George Rahm and Joseph Hillmer (http://www.amazon.com/Crimson-Cutlass-Fundamentals-Book-One-ebook/dp/B00V0B88GQ)
It's only the first book, they're doing four I heard on The Miniatures Page.
Of course it wouldn't be complete without A Pirate Tarot Deck! (http://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Pirates-Lo-Scarabeo-Tarots/dp/0738712906) :D

Holy shit THANK YOU!!!

I've lost touch with Red Rahm and Conrad (aka Joe) who used to be LA con goers back in the 80s and 90s. Their Battleborn RPG is one of my favorites. Those dudes were ahead of their time.

Quote from: CRKrueger;877198George Rahm and Joseph Hillmer (http://www.amazon.com/Crimson-Cutlass-Fundamentals-Book-One-ebook/dp/B00V0B88GQ)
It's only the first book, they're doing four I heard on The Miniatures Page.
Of course it wouldn't be complete without A Pirate Tarot Deck! (http://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Pirates-Lo-Scarabeo-Tarots/dp/0738712906) :D

Thanks also for this. I was not aware of Crimson Cutlass, but afterr an afternoon reading book 1, it's clear they were there long before Gumshoe or Barbarians of Lemuria. To my mind, it blows 7th Seas into the weeds as far as the system goes.

If Wick is the George Lucas of gaming, who's his Jar Jar?

Quote from: RPGPundit;877785If Wick is the George Lucas of gaming, who's his Jar Jar?

His post about Sean Connery's thumb.

Quote from: RPGPundit;877785If Wick is the George Lucas of gaming, who's his Jar Jar?

Bayushi Kachiko.  If I ever run another L5R game it will be called "Kill Kachiko."

She's up there with Stone and Sam Haight, but at least Sam started fairly interesting.

Quote from: Stainless;877398Thanks also for this. I was not aware of Crimson Cutlass, but afterr an afternoon reading book 1, it's clear they were there long before Gumshoe or Barbarians of Lemuria. To my mind, it blows 7th Seas into the weeds as far as the system goes.

As a fan of both games, I love them for what they do so radically different than each other.

Crimson Cutlass is super fast chargen, where your character is developed by choices in game, and life is cheap for early PCs.

7th Sea is cinematic heroics. And while you can do crazy stuff in Crimson Cutlass, its Errol Flynn stunts and not Anime stunts.

If you (or anyone else reading this) want some thoughts about Crimson Cutlass before running it, I would be very happy to discuss stuff on a thread.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;877818Bayushi Kachiko.  If I ever run another L5R game it will be called "Kill Kachiko.".

God, Kachiko...  I HATED her.  No, I hated the entire Scorpion clan, but she epitomized the whole stupidity of the entire clan.  A group of people who know ALL the secrets, 'promise' not to share them and yet are allowed to live.  A woman who gets people (mostly men, it seems) to do what she wants because she 'promises' certain 'things' that lead these fools into thinking she'd actually honour them, but actually doesn't and gets away with it everytime because... ROKUGAN!

It was clear that Wick favoured the clan way too much, and had no idea how to create a clan of 'mystery'.

Bayushi Kachiko was much more fun to roleplay than read about.

Especially if you approach her as a dark hero who believes in "by any means necessary".

Quote from: Spinachcat;877855Bayushi Kachiko was much more fun to roleplay than read about.

Especially if you approach her as a dark hero who believes in "by any means necessary".

That doesn't matter, it's the fact that she hint/offers sex, using her beauty to as a bargaining piece, leading people on, and then when she gets what she wants, she cockblocks with no repercussions.  That is so eyerollingly unbelievable that it breaks my little mind.

Also, the clan itself needs to be redesigned to be the Emperor's Spies, rather than a hoarder of secrets and somehow not be wiped out by an alliance of all the other clans.  After all, the only good secret is a dead secret.

Really happy with how well the Kickstarter is doing!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;877953Also, the clan itself needs to be redesigned to be the Emperor's Spies, rather than a hoarder of secrets and somehow not be wiped out by an alliance of all the other clans.

To be fair, that did happen. They got better though. :D

I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for the first Scorpion clanbook and the way it punctured the ninja fantasy to such hilarious effect. Too bad that piss-take didn't really fit the rest of the setting and clearly wasn't applied to later fluff or the card game.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;877993To be fair, that did happen. They got better though. :D

I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for the first Scorpion clanbook and the way it punctured the ninja fantasy to such hilarious effect. Too bad that piss-take didn't really fit the rest of the setting and clearly wasn't applied to later fluff or the card game.

The whole reason that the Ninja 'fantasy' was 'punctured' was that according to John Wick he had over $3000 in books that claimed that Ninja didn't exist (In a game where it's a Samurai Fantasy, I mean, really?  You're going to use 'realism'?) completely missing the point that, are governments really going to let some historian divulge all the information of a nation's black ops division?  Which we all know exist in some fashion, but no one (outside of those in it) really knows the full extent.

No, in a game that was about Fantasy Samurai having no Fantasy Ninja is like D&D without the Dragons.  It's PART of the setting, don't make them playable, fine, but they would make great foils and antagonists.

And the only reason the Scorpion clan got smushed was because people realized just how flimsy John Wick's argument for keeping them around as they were, the 'grand untouchable puppet masters'.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;878017And the only reason the Scorpion clan got smushed was because people realized just how flimsy John Wick's argument for keeping them around as they were, the 'grand untouchable puppet masters'.

Didn't Wick use the same untouchable NPC puppet master shtick in his supers game?

This is why I am thankful that 4th edition LotFRs had cut itself from the card game metaplot.  As in no one knows about the spider clan, scorpion serves the empire as spy masters, and any thing else that makes sense.

Quote from: Snowman0147;878032This is why I am thankful that 4th edition LotFRs had cut itself from the card game metaplot.  As in no one knows about the spider clan, scorpion serves the empire as spy masters, and any thing else that makes sense.

The best part is that Wick had nothing to do with it.

The Scorpion were the Emperor's spy masters from 1e, and was written as such since the time of the Kami. They also were like the third largest army in Rokugan, behind Lion and Crab, both of which were often preoccupied. They also had one of the most robust economies because of their entertainments, (and major info source).

Facilitators who have a large army, strong economy, and all your secrets (and thus animosity) should be a fat, yet extremely hard, target. Thing is the Emperor liked the clan chaos, it was necessary for stability, and everyone else liked facilitators when things got ugly at home. Everyone needed a villain to blame, but each clan was so villainous at heart that they knew they needed their scapegoat-facilitator. There was no honor in defeating those without honor, and there was no benefit in exposing your ass to nab a mutual villain, especially since your clan had other, tastier enemies.

No, the Scorpion made sense from the beginning. I've been playing the CCG since Imperial edition but stopped after WotC nabbed it, and AEG wasn't much better. Thought "soul of" cards were silly both mechanically and metagame-wise, and still believe Brian Reese design and AEG anti-FLGS retailer attitude killed the game. Now, the creation of the Spider?, if you want to talk about Mary Sues on a rampage...

Quote from: Christopher Brady;878056The best part is that Wick had nothing to do with it.

The metaplot was stupid as fuck as far as the card game goes.  I remember talking to some one about the spider clan with one guy that hates the clan.  This was when I had the third edition.  

Now the reason I like the clan was that they were not stupid.  They cause problems, but show up as "heroic" ronin to save the day.  Thus winning the trust of the people for a long mission to take over the empire through the power of the people approach.  I pointed out the plan in the book to its exact page.  The guy was amazed.

Now this is why he hated the clan.  In the card game metaplot spider clan presented itself as a clan.  That is stupid enough.  They then told them their clan creation which is suicide.  It is like claiming to be a satanist to the Roman Catholic priest during the times of the inquisition.  Pure Darwin Award moment here.  Then the empire let them in.  The fuck?  By the way just going by what is told to me.

So yeah the rpg and card game needed the split.  One is clearly more intelligent than the other.  That is just my opinion.

In short...

It was the manifestation of Fu Leng, yes "Satan himself," being reborn and claiming divine birthright to the throne. Later other bullshit blows up (Ivory Kingdoms nukes itself), and 'arisen Fu Leng' decides to go fight to save the empire if the empire recognizes his followers and the Shadowlands as part of the empire and clan.

So yes, Jesus' ancestors as pope bargain with reborn fallen Lucifer to go fight the infidels of polytheistic India.

Pure stupid.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;877854God, Kachiko...  I HATED her.  No, I hated the entire Scorpion clan, but she epitomized the whole stupidity of the entire clan.  A group of people who know ALL the secrets, 'promise' not to share them and yet are allowed to live.  A woman who gets people (mostly men, it seems) to do what she wants because she 'promises' certain 'things' that lead these fools into thinking she'd actually honour them, but actually doesn't and gets away with it everytime because... ROKUGAN!

It was clear that Wick favoured the clan way too much, and had no idea how to create a clan of 'mystery'.

I always interpreted the Scorpion as: "Take Elim Garak from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and base a samurai clan around him." ;)

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;878078I always interpreted the Scorpion as: "Take Elim Garak from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and base a samurai clan around him." ;)

JG

Garak lived in constant fear of being killed by his former masters for knowing too much.  He lived in a place where he was pretty sure they couldn't get him.  He used information and misinformation to cloak himself in protection, but relied on the appearance of being harmless.

The Scorpion were not any of these things, as written.

In my short lived 1e game, I used the Scorpion as the Emperor's eyes against the Shadowlands internally.  They were his agents, secret police and assassins.  To everyone else, they were social butterflies and experts in 'sincerity', settling in as the Crane Clan's social rivals, whereas the Crane's rivalry with the Dragon Clan was about swordsmanship.

It lasted until the Scorpion book came out (which I didn't buy) and a player who loved the Scorpion clan decided to use stuff from it, against my wishes, and started arguments when I said (politely, I am Canadian after all) to please stop.

That actually is what they are, since 1e. They are also the "dealer" to the "junkies" of other clans as well, smoothing over inconveniences.

Like an actual canon example would be discovering a samurai fell in love with a lower born and is about to be discovered. This could break up an arranged marriage. So the embarassed clan would call in the Scorpion to "fix things."

They use their geisha to drug the samurai while staging a bandit raid by the lower born love's house. She's killed in the ensuing attack, the samurai is drugged so cannot rescue her. He's guilt ridden to bring these bandits to justice, and in the end, after slaughtering some bandits and looking good to the public, discovers it was really a Scorpion plot — and they knew about his illicit love all along. That last tidbit is shared discreetly, like a damocles sword.

Now the samurai cannot declare his love openly, nor call his killing the bandits vengeance, but he looked good in "doing his duty to Rokugan." He looks dutiful and honorable to his arranged marriage family. His love is dead so there's nothing to pursue there. And the Scorpions are an easy villain to publically accuse; they also knew his secret and made him look good while making him miserable.

And thus order is maintained, the honorable still look good, and with hooks into both the samurai and his family for cleaning this whole mess up. Only a few low level flunkies and a low born woman had to die. Nice and tidy.
 :)

Quote from: Opaopajr;878222That actually is what they are, since 1e. They are also the "dealer" to the "junkies" of other clans as well, smoothing over inconveniences.

Like an actual canon example would be discovering a samurai fell in love with a lower born and is about to be discovered. This could break up an arranged marriage. So the embarassed clan would call in the Scorpion to "fix things."

They use their geisha to drug the samurai while staging a bandit raid by the lower born love's house. She's killed in the ensuing attack, the samurai is drugged so cannot rescue her. He's guilt ridden to bring these bandits to justice, and in the end, after slaughtering some bandits and looking good to the public, discovers it was really a Scorpion plot — and they knew about his illicit love all along. That last tidbit is shared discreetly, like a damocles sword.

Now the samurai cannot declare his love openly, nor call his killing the bandits vengeance, but he looked good in "doing his duty to Rokugan." He looks dutiful and honorable to his arranged marriage family. His love is dead so there's nothing to pursue there. And the Scorpions are an easy villain to publically accuse; they also knew his secret and made him look good while making him miserable.

And thus order is maintained, the honorable still look good, and with hooks into both the samurai and his family for cleaning this whole mess up. Only a few low level flunkies and a low born woman had to die. Nice and tidy.
 :)

As if things would work out so neatly.  But hey, it's the Scorpion clan!  Their plans ALWAYS work.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;878017The whole reason that the Ninja 'fantasy' was 'punctured' was that according to John Wick he had over $3000 in books that claimed that Ninja didn't exist (In a game where it's a Samurai Fantasy, I mean, really?  You're going to use 'realism'?) completely missing the point that, are governments really going to let some historian divulge all the information of a nation's black ops division?  Which we all know exist in some fashion, but no one (outside of those in it) really knows the full extent.

Yeah, it's true enough that ninjas in the archetypal sense are a fictional invention  (their costume is literally the costume worn by stage hands in a particular type of play, for instance), but a bigger stretch to say that nobody hired desperate, violent people to do shady stuff in a plausibly deniable way back then. And if you're gonna have an aesthetic for such guys in a story, ninja work fine.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;878226As if things would work out so neatly.  But hey, it's the Scorpion clan!  Their plans ALWAYS work.

It's a canonical example of the setting's logic, not an example of its routine fidelity. What people want to believe and what really happens often differs, but people want to believe so badly they'll patch up the gaps. The easy story sells more copy than the truth, each and every time.

It's not so different than most other settings and reality. Life is messy. Comforting narratives are easy. Guess which wins out on the stage of public opinion?

The Scorpion were nowhere near the biggest issue I had with L5R. In fact, I thought it was one of their better pieces of work in the setting.

Quote from: Opaopajr;878389The Scorpion were nowhere near the biggest issue I had with L5R.

What was?

All this talk about ninjas reminds me of how we never got a L5R/7Sea crossover so we could resolve this Ninjas vs Pirates business once and for all. Also of how 7th Sea didn't actually have pirates at the time...

Aaaanyway, anyone check out the Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/johnwickpresents/7th-sea-second-edition) yet or have more opinions to share on the rules?

I backed it at the $60 level mostly for nostalgia purposes.  I haven't had time to sit down and look at the backer material yet.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;878433All this talk about ninjas reminds me of how we never got a L5R/7Sea crossover so we could resolve this Ninjas vs Pirates business once and for all. Also of how 7th Sea didn't actually have pirates at the time...

Aaaanyway, anyone check out the Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/johnwickpresents/7th-sea-second-edition) yet or have more opinions to share on the rules?

Well, my first opinion is that he didn't expect it to take off like this.  (Not that I blame him.)  Over 1500% funded is some kind of crazy - I didn't have any idea folks liked 7th sea this much.

My second opinion is that he's running out of stretch goals.  I hope he doesn't kill himself making up more - the current number of books and materials you get for pledging at $40 is pretty awesome as it stands.

I've never been a huge fan of 'roll and keep' for whatever reason, so I kind of like dropping it, although now it seems like you're supposed to get three successes (or raises) for what I would normally think of as a successful roll, with partial success at one or two raises.  Of course, I'm only seeing the example scenario, so I don't have the full list.  I'm also fond of the 'Death Spiral' mechanic - a nice visual reminder of how far things are going badly for you, and a pun at that.

I look forward to learning more about the new system.

I checked out the free Quickstart and I'm not seeing what I'd gain from 2e.

If any of you are in Los Angeles this weekend, John Wick is running several 7th Sea events and demos at the OrcCon Strategicon convention.

I'll have to say the 40 dollar level is hard to pass up.
PDFs of all 1st Edition titles (39 books).
PDFs of Second Edition book and all stretch goal.
Make it 60 and 2nd core is full color hard bound.

That's craziness, and why he's raking it in.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;878391What was?

The umpteen apocalyses (yes, plural) within 100 year timespan.

The first one Time of the Void/Day of Thunder, where the dark kami, Fu Leng (a.k.a. the setting's "Satan"), coming back possessing the 39th Hantei Emperor was the most tame of the apocalypses.

The empire being consumed by an amorphous blob of ninja shadows, someone had to become the moon, the ghost of a tyrant Hantei Emperor returned with all the dead spirits, Otosan Uchi blew up, over and over, the empire had to invade the land of ghosts (Volturnum), had to invade hell (Jigoku), had to push back Genghis Khan Unicorn (Chagatai), had all the first kami revisit (just 'cause, and reincarnation, y'know?), had to deal with a second Festering Pit of Fu Leng, had to extend the Crab great wall inside the Scorpion lands, had to absorb the Shadowlands in the wake of the Ivory Kingdoms being genocided by the rise of the avatar of Kali, had a civil war between their Ivory Kingdom colonies and two emperors, had the Dark Naga (forsaken to the Akashic Records) go nuts, etc.

(and that should be less than half of them.)

Aaaaaaaall in about less than 90 years.

The setting is nuts and most of the CCG and RPG metagame canon is eye-rollingly bad. Like late oWoD White Wolf level bad. I recommend 1e for most people as it had some great campaign fodder that is mostly isolated from metagame. But the other editions I would be very picky as I feel most of it is system cruft as it strains at attempted "balance." (I could care less about the new setting embellishments, as I found they hadn't the verve as before.)

I did go out of my way to get my long awaited Legend of the Burning Sands book, which was part of L5R 3e's run. That pleased me.

Quote from: CRKrueger;878521I'll have to say the 40 dollar level is hard to pass up.
PDFs of all 1st Edition titles (39 books).
PDFs of Second Edition book and all stretch goal.
Make it 60 and 2nd core is full color hard bound.

That's craziness, and why he's raking it in.

Yeah, that's more than a song. That's akin to firesale prices.

Though I think giving away old edition PDFs away is a good idea, throwing all the new stuff in seems silly. You can make money by just giving away more stuff but it's not really profit. I hope that he doesn't over extend himself too much.

Quote from: Skywalker;878542Though I think giving away old edition PDFs away is a good idea, throwing all the new stuff in seems silly. You can make money by just giving away more stuff but it's not really profit. I hope that he doesn't over extend himself too much.

The PDFs cost him nothing, and he'll get people who don't care about 2nd edition to send him 40 dollars.  Even the stupid high expensive levels don't give you physical copies of all the 2nd edition stuff.  He's being super careful about paper copies.

And $500k done. This thing just keeps going. There are still 29 days to go.

Tom

I don't doubt it setting the new record for RPGs on Kickstarter. The only thing I can think of that possibly did more was Vampire 20th anniversary...it was funded before Kickstarter so we don't know the actual numbers produced, but I wouldn't doubt it passed the million mark..

Still, 7th Sea might even surpass that. Lots of people have fond memories of 7th Sea myself included, particularly the early years when John Wick was at the helm, before he left and it turned into a Lovecraft game for some fucking reason.

Quote from: Blusponge;878707And $500k done. This thing just keeps going. There are still 29 days to go.

Tom

:jaw-dropping:

Who said you couldn't get rich making RPGs.

Quote from: One Horse Town;878719:jaw-dropping:

Who said you couldn't get rich making RPGs.

Kinda glad I didn't end up contributing any of my meager resources.

Kickstarter takes 8% off the top + 20 cents per pledge.

https://www.kickstarter.com/help/fees?country=US

Then he's got to make some stuff and post it.

But yeah, he'll probably make a packet on this. It better have impeccable proof reading and artwork.

Quote from: One Horse Town;878719:jaw-dropping:

Who said you couldn't get rich making RPGs.

Oh, when you divide that pie up amongst all of those contributing to the project and production costs, no one is getting "rich".  But it should keep them clothed and fed while they bang out words and art for our amusement. Now, if it hits 2 million, we'll talk.

Tom

Quote from: Stainless;878725It better have impeccable proof reading...

HA! Now wouldn't that be a helluva stretch goal!

$800k: We'll hire a professional editor/proof reader to review everything before it goes out the door.

Given the size (and word counts) of these books, that would probably end up being more expensive than the printing.

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;878734HA! Now wouldn't that be a helluva stretch goal!

$800k: We'll hire a professional editor/proof reader to review everything before it goes out the door.

Given the size (and word counts) of these books, that would probably end up being more expensive than the printing.

Tom

Given the magnitude of the response, he could probably pick any ten top contributing fans and they'd gladly do it for free.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;878751Given the magnitude of the response, he could probably pick any ten top contributing fans and they'd gladly do it for free.

You know the old saying, "you get what you pay for."  

I've worked in publishing and seen professional proofreaders at work. It's a world away from, "hey, will you look over this for errors?" It costs money but well worth it in the end.

Tom

I would totally love to see Kickstarters include professional editing/proof reading as a stretch goal. I hope, as a fan contributor, I'm up to it for the up-coming Dicey Tales RPG.

Quote from: Stainless;878769I would totally love to see Kickstarters include professional editing/proof reading as a stretch goal.

Totally agree. Professional editing and proofreading should yield rule clarity and consistency, ease of use of the rules and speed ease of play for hours: things to be prized. However, I guess, good editing is relatively invisible to many readers unlike good (or worse poor) art.

Quote from: Anselyn;878776However, I guess, good editing is relatively invisible to many readers unlike good (or worse poor) art.

My good Professor Anselyn. It never ceases to amaze me that roleplayers, being traditionally literate and studious types, generally seem so complacent about the wretched grammar, sentence structure, overall structure, and level of typos so common in roleplaying books. Yet at the same time they'll howl about the hairline of a figure in an illustration.

Quote from: Stainless;878781My good Professor Anselyn. It never ceases to amaze me that roleplayers, being traditionally literate and studious types, generally seem so complacent about the wretched grammar, sentence structure, overall structure, and level of typos so common in roleplaying books. Yet at the same time they'll howl about the hairline of a figure in an illustration.

Tell me about it.

Reading the Rogue Trader RPG book again right now. You know what drives me nuts? Every third paragraph the author will repeat a high-impact word he just used one sentence later in a very obvious and painful manner. It's stuff like, "The wretched xenos scum must never be trusted. Those who allow themselves to be seduced by their heretical ideologies are truly wretched."

Page after page of this, along with egregious typos in the headers of sections and sidebars.

Great looking book though. :rolleyes:

I've just read in an rpg book, "...to all intensive purposes..." where they clearly mean, "to all intents and purposes". LOL

Quote from: Blusponge;878757You know the old saying, "you get what you pay for."  

I've worked in publishing and seen professional proofreaders at work. It's a world away from, "hey, will you look over this for errors?" It costs money but well worth it in the end.

Tom

I am actually a professional proof reader and editor in my new day job.  It's hard and should be expensive.

Quote from: One Horse Town;878719Who said you couldn't get rich making RPGs.

The real money is in the IP. A record shattering KS could be parlayed into meetings with media people who may be interested in doing 7th Sea video games or a TV show.

But hey, kudos to Wick and his team. His success is only good news for the hobby.

Quote from: Anselyn;878776However, I guess, good editing is relatively invisible to many readers unlike good (or worse poor) art.

Have you read the 7th Sea 2e Quickstart?

I personally don't get it. I find the new 2e art anti-inspiring and I don't find the new text to be well written or organized, but NONE of that is slowing down Wick's money train.

I am betting he hits $1M before its over.

Quote from: joewolz;879080I am actually a professional proof reader and editor in my new day job.  It's hard and should be expensive.

Which is why so few people use proof readers or editors.

Hard + Expensive = Skip, especially since most buyers are just looking for shelf candy and toilet reading, instead of something that has to be battle tested for the table.

Quote from: joewolz;879080I am actually a professional proof reader and editor in my new day job.  It's hard and should be expensive.

Ideally, it also should be included in the main goal for a Kickstarter, not a stretch goal.

Quote from: Spinachcat;879187But hey, kudos to Wick and his team. His success is only good news for the hobby.

Indeed:).

QuoteI am betting he hits $1M before its over.

I'm betting on 1.5 millions right now, but I might have to revise that. Probably upwards;).

Quote from: AsenRG;879196Indeed:).



I'm betting on 1.5 millions right now, but I might have to revise that. Probably upwards;).

and since most of that will be pdf delivery, that's a lot of fucking gravy.  

Selling completionist pdf collections of out of print RPGs is becoming big business.

Of course, this being Wick we're talking about, he'll misinterpret the takeaway and be more of a piehole than ever. :D

But 39 Pirate Game pdfs for 40 bucks, I'm in.  The new stuff is just gravy for me.

I may contribute to a Kickstarter for the first time just to get the old stuff and I have around half of it in print already.

Quote from: CRKrueger;879245and since most of that will be pdf delivery, that's a lot of fucking gravy.  

Selling completionist pdf collections of out of print RPGs is becoming big business.

Of course, this being Wick we're talking about, he'll misinterpret the takeaway and be more of a piehole than ever. :D

But 39 Pirate Game pdfs for 40 bucks, I'm in.  The new stuff is just gravy for me.

Yes, and I can only wish him all the best:)! It's good that some game designer might get to do some real money in this day and age!

Besides, I've never had issues with John Wick's games, though that might be because I avoided L5R;).

Quote from: AsenRG;879292Yes, and I can only wish him all the best:)! It's good that some game designer might get to do some real money in this day and age!

Besides, I've never had issues with John Wick's games, though that might be because I avoided L5R;).

L5R 1st Edition is solid gold, my friend. One of Wick's best, IMO. The pre-Scorpion Clan Coup is an excellent setting with lots of tension, etc.
At the time, I'm sure the L5R design team thought it would be cool to have CCG tournament events influence the RPG storylines, but it's also what made future iterations of L5R so wonky.

If you keep the setting simple, it's a great sandbox.

PS: Holy shit! The Kickstarter for 7th Sea just broke 600K!

I have no personal interest in this game, but good for him for his success.

FYI, for anyone only casually following, a revised version of the quickstart rules is going to be available next week.  The developers are incorporating feedback and playtesting and working on improving the play experience.  The new packet should also give us our first look at villains (who I guess will now have more than 1 stat).

The feedback has run the gamut.  Most of the criticisms have involved the very predictability of the core dice mechanic and the dueling rules.  But there have been some really good and insightful reviews that really call into question the weight of the system.  So it will be interesting to see what the developers will take from this.

Personally, while I started out very excited about the whole project, the early reviews and analysis have tempered my enthusiasm.  Maybe I'm just dense, but I'm having trouble seeing what the actual GAME is.  But there is a long way to go between here and there, so lets wait and see what the final product holds.

Tom

Quote from: CRKrueger;877198George Rahm and Joseph Hillmer (http://www.amazon.com/Crimson-Cutlass-Fundamentals-Book-One-ebook/dp/B00V0B88GQ)
It's only the first book, they're doing four I heard on The Miniatures Page.
Of course it wouldn't be complete without A Pirate Tarot Deck! (http://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Pirates-Lo-Scarabeo-Tarots/dp/0738712906) :D

Update on Crimson Cutlass, I noticed Book Two (http://www.amazon.com/Crimson-Cutlass-Scenarios-Book-Two-ebook/dp/B016QQK7CM/) and Book Three (http://www.amazon.com/Crimson-Cutlass-Encounters-Book-Three-ebook/dp/B01B9YP10E/) are out.

Did I mention Amazon had A Pirate Tarot Deck! (http://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Pirates-Lo-Scarabeo-Tarots/dp/0738712906) :D

$1,000,000!
Damn!!!
I can't wait to play and run this. The rewards can't come soon enough...

Congrats John Wick, Magpie Games, and Jerry Grayson on making RPG history.

Quote from: Skywalker;884378Congrats John Wick, Magpie Games, and Jerry Grayson on making RPG history.

BTW, do you think Modiphius left at least half, if not more, of the possible Conan RPG money on the table simply through system choice?

Quote from: CRKrueger;884433BTW, do you think Modiphius left at least half, if not more, of the possible Conan RPG money on the table simply through system choice?

Not sure TBH. I think they paced their products out in a way that was detrimental, but I think its sensible given how much product they have given away in the past.

Overall, I am not a fan of the business practice of using KS to fund a line of books in a short space of time.

Quote from: Skywalker;884434Overall, I am not a fan of the business practice of using KS to fund a line of books in a short space of time.

Although to be fair, the art budget, good lord.

Quote from: CRKrueger;884436Although to be fair, the art budget, good lord.

It is amaze.

Christ.  I didn't imagine there were that many 7th Sea fans. Or Wick fans.

One of these days I'll have to make me a kickstarter.

I've signed up for the Kickstarter out of interest. Just the pdfs. I looked at the 1st edition and hated the dumb-ass American-centric pastiche of Europe. But I thought I might give it another go in case it's improved or my tastes have changed. Problem is, the quick starter rules, as so far revealed, look pretty poorly thought out. I thought Wick was supposed to be a design "genius" but so far you can drive trucks through the holes in his rules. What's the chance this is just draft rules shown too early to satisfy Kickstarter punters and in fact it will be all sorted out in the end? Should I keep the faith?

Quote from: Stainless;884715I thought Wick was supposed to be a design "genius" but so far you can drive trucks through the holes in his rules. What's the chance this is just draft rules shown too early to satisfy Kickstarter punters and in fact it will be all sorted out in the end? Should I keep the faith?

I mastered the original 7th Sea's rules to their smallest detail, patched them using data gathered from half a dozen forums and rewrote the core book from the ground up in an attempt to clean up that mess while still staying true to its fundamentals (a very educational experience). After that effort I soon discovered that all I had to show for it was a game that still tripped over its own feet.

The campaign that followed was quite depressing, as I ended up fudging around most everything just to keep it barely working. I'm a gamer GM you see, I want to feel like I'm running a game, not tossing the rule book out the window with a grin and a shrug.

The players still enjoyed the experience on their side of the GM screen, but then that's the dirty little secret of 7th Sea: People loved it for its setting, not its rules.

So to answer your question: I really want this 2nd edition to work, but the track record is bad. To make matters worse, I can now see Wick is fixing things that weren't broken, replacing popular stuff, and already casting his sights on very distant horizons as if he's bored of the central premise.

Keep the faith? No. Watch from a safe distance with cautious interest? Sure.

Well this is a great opportunity! After things were compiled, collated, mastered, and readjusted — what major functions kept tripping over the system?

Seems like a lot of people really liked the idea of Theah. (I know I did from afar, but the few playthruoughs I had left me leery of jumping into the line.) What with so many new 1e pdfs in circulation the question of "Which Bad Functions Were Worst?" becomes useful in case 2e ambles astray.

My big things were "merits/flaws" as some were just eyerolling-worthy, Drama dice, the tiny continent flagella seemingly isolated out there in the water, and if not watched Traits overwhelming Skills (and soon the game) a la L5R.

Quote from: RPGPundit;884670Christ.  I didn't imagine there were that many 7th Sea fans. Or Wick fans.

One of these days I'll have to make me a kickstarter.

Can't argue with 1 Million Dollars I suppose. I never played 7th Sea but it is one of those games that was always on the shelf and always seemed to have some sort of fanbase.

For those who do play or played, is the main attraction the setting or the system (or both)?

Quote from: CRKrueger;884433BTW, do you think Modiphius left at least half, if not more, of the possible Conan RPG money on the table simply through system choice?

  I view it as highly improbable. I don't think a lot of gamers care that much about system so long as it 'works', and of those that do pay attention to system, a lot of them are probably less ideological that folks on online fora like here, RPGnet, the Forge, or the Gaming Den.

Quote from: RPGPundit;884670Christ.  I didn't imagine there were that many 7th Sea fans. Or Wick fans.

One of these days I'll have to make me a kickstarter.

As a totally insignificant data point, I've backed this KS but I've no interest whatsoever in the game or Wick. It's just that, as a collector, $60 for the hardback plus all the first and second edition PDFs was too good an offer to pass up.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;884748Can't argue with 1 Million Dollars I suppose. I never played 7th Sea but it is one of those games that was always on the shelf and always seemed to have some sort of fanbase.

For those who do play or played, is the main attraction the setting or the system (or both)?

For me it was the setting. Was always a big fan of pirates, and this was the game at the time that encouraged pirate stuff.

Backed the 2nd edition for nostalgia sake.

I liked the setting, and tried to stay faithful to the system. It's key flaw was that it wanted to be GURPS without the rigor and couldn't make up its mind about how rules light it was going to be.

Key flaws of the 1st ed:

- Math was wobbly all over the place. Many abilities had weird or awful odds, and would often cost precious meta-game resources to boot. Your character could only grow a little bit before breaking most challenges, and the skills were worth stupidly less than the basic stats.

- Character creation was a mess because of poorly calculated costs for everything, and some things that really shouldn't have cost points at all.

- Needlessly complex rules for skill acquisition, and far too many of them. It seriously impeded the swashbuckling improv by imposing penalties on the crazy derring-do.

- No room for the splat growth they clearly wanted: It was difficult to design things like new swordsman schools without stepping on the toes of existing ones for instance. The majority of new skills, advantages and sorceries were redundant clutter.

- Lackluster splatbook rules in general, especially compared to its sister game L5R. Core book was the way to stay.

- Dumb XP rules, especially the way they discouraged taking risks in a swashbuckling game, and the fact that character creation used different math from XP made for cheesy metagame thinking.

- Combat clearly wanted to be improvisational, but many of its rules explicitly niche-protected the most common combat maneuvers, reserving them exclusively for specific swordsman schools.

- It lost sight of its core focus and started chasing weird tangents, both mechanically and thematically.

That is rather in keeping with most of my complaints with AEG's progression of their RollKeep system. I carry the majority of those same complaints about L5R over the years. But it sounds like 7th Sea pissed its bed all in its first go.

I forgot about my complaint about chargen points and XP being on different rates and obfuscating campaign progression rates for the GM. It's a major complaint I had with L5R (and WW) from the beginning. I just dont see the benefit of inequal math rates between chargen & XP, let alone compounded XP costs over simpler, and cheaper, progression.

Draw a clearer path about progress, give the GM more control over campaign pacing. Should be obvious, I think.

At least the magic was so toned down (IIRC) that you'd think swashbuckling would have a chance, unlike L5R where shugenja spells were crazy strong. But the fighting style schools in both L5R and 7th Sea never really worked in my view. They became almost distracting limiters to encourage hyper-focusing.

Traits quickly trumping all challenges, especially overshadowing skills so hard, was my big peeve. That Roll & Keep mechanic got the equation in the wrong order, IMHO. Skills should be the Keep; that diffuses the cascading benefits from focusing character and experience points.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;884749I view it as highly improbable. I don't think a lot of gamers care that much about system so long as it 'works', and of those that do pay attention to system, a lot of them are probably less ideological that folks on online fora like here, RPGnet, the Forge, or the Gaming Den.

I'll admit that I didn't back the Conan Kickstarter because of the system. Nothing against that particular system except that it was new to me, and I have had a bit of system fatigue for the last several years.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;884719I mastered the original 7th Sea's rules to their smallest detail, patched them using data gathered from half a dozen forums and rewrote the core book from the ground up in an attempt to clean up that mess while still staying true to its fundamentals (a very educational experience). After that effort I soon discovered that all I had to show for it was a game that still tripped over its own feet.

The campaign that followed was quite depressing, as I ended up fudging around most everything just to keep it barely working. I'm a gamer GM you see, I want to feel like I'm running a game, not tossing the rule book out the window with a grin and a shrug.

The players still enjoyed the experience on their side of the GM screen, but then that's the dirty little secret of 7th Sea: People loved it for its setting, not its rules.

Wow.  Your and my experiences with 7th Sea couldn't be further apart.  :(

QuoteSo to answer your question: I really want this 2nd edition to work, but the track record is bad. To make matters worse, I can now see Wick is fixing things that weren't broken, replacing popular stuff, and already casting his sights on very distant horizons as if he's bored of the central premise.

That's...not the impression I'm getting, and I'm by no means sold on the new core mechanic.  Having read over his "No Dice" and "Chess..." articles, it's clear to me that Wick is putting his money where his mouth is when it comes to those ideas.  A LOT of money.  I have to give him some credit for that, whether I agree with those philosophies or not.  And the last thing I get from his responses to the kickstarter or playtest reports is boredom.  I don't think ANYONE expected this level of investment in the game, and it's probably pretty damn frightening for him and his crew.  Because if the game doesn't measure up to expectations, well...

Tom

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;884748For those who do play or played, is the main attraction the setting or the system (or both)?

I can only speak to my experiences but...
Not-Europe makes it very easy to create adventures that riff off history but don't have to adhere to it.
Makes it very easy for players to come up with a concept.
There was a nation for every type of player.  Like grimdark?  Eisen.  Faeries?  Avalon.  Vampire the Masquerade?  Vodacce.
Drama Dice are more fun than hero points, even if they accomplish the same thing.
Exploding dice are fun.
One of my players – an avid D&D player with very little interest outside that – loved that there was a "mooch" skill.
Roll/Keep made failure a real choice
Calling Raises gave players swagger.  "That's it?  That's my target number?  I call 4 Raises!  Ha-ha!"
Flesh wounds.
Complete sandbox.  You want dungeoncrawls?  It has dungeoncrawls?  You want courtly intrigue?  That too.  You want murder and mayhem?  Yup, that too.  You just want to blow things up?  ::Hands over the Rilascre sourcebook::

I mean, we played for 3 years with roughly the same characters.  In that time we...
killed a redcap that was haunting a university
chased a villain down the Rhein river and fought a sea serpent
explored a syrneth digsite while the DK player tried his best to kill all the players (without really trying)
killed a reborn saint that was really a demon
Had an inopportune gypsy kidnapping spoil a tryst between two PCs
fought sharks in a coastal cave hideout
played an adventure based on Hamlet
fought strange, otherworldly cthulhu-ish dimensional invaders in a triage hospital on the front between not-Spain and not-France
had a player fail an archaic initiation ritual from his secret society
insult a fey lord while crossing a bridge and having to endure a macabre game of king of the hill

The grand finale that never got played was going to be Castle Ravenloft – converted and dropped onto an island in the northern sea.

And that's only what I remember after 12 years.

And NONE of that really touched on the metaplot.

And 80% of it came straight out of the two core books.

Yeah.  It was fun.

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;884794Because if the game doesn't measure up to expectations, well...

Unfortunately for the team, there's no way it can. You'll need a new storage device for all the pdfs, there's a couple novels to read, some pirate shanty music, cool wall maps, for a few - some crazy sextant and telescope thing, but in the end...

It's the Second Edition of a game everyone has, and aside from the New World, most of the supplements are retreads.

or as Spike says...

Quote from: SpikeI'm such a sucker. Whenever people tell me that that shop down on the corner sells the bestest pie EVAH!!!!... and I go run down there and try some and it tastes, you know, pretty good?

Yeah. I'm disappointed because, it was just pie.

Quote from: CRKrueger;884804Unfortunately for the team, there's no way it can.

And that's fine.  No game is going to suit everyone's tastes.  It doesn't matter how many novels, sourcebooks, or sextants you throw at it.  Some games are just a bad fit.  It's one of the reasons I stay away from o/nWoD games.

QuoteIt's the Second Edition of a game everyone has, and aside from the New World, most of the supplements are retreads.

Yeah.  Just like Castle Xagyg was a retread of Greyhawk Ruins.  Which was a retread of the Castle Greyhawk joke module.

A JWP reboot of 7th Sea is exciting for a lot of us the same way it would be exciting for Greyhawk fans if Gygax had bought back the rights after TSR folded.  Where one person sees a tired retread of a game everyone already owns, others see it as a chance to see where the setting's creator can take it given a free hand.  Remember, John Wick only had a hand in the first few sourcebooks for 7th Sea.  Just about everyone agrees it went off the rails after that.  And no one was ever really satisfied with the original versions of Cathay or the Crescent Empire either.  So really, the only real "retreads" will be the two Lands of Theah sourcebook and the secret societies sourcebook.  Everything else (7 sourcebooks of 10) is going to be almost entirely new.  Aztlan, Arcadia, Ifri, the Crescent Empire – that's two(?) continents and 1 sub continent.

And Spike is right.  All games are pie.  But my wife, who loves pie, will tell you not all pies are created equal.  And there are plenty of flavors to enjoy.  Saying RPGs are just pie is like telling me I should be happy with peanut butter cookies – they are just as good as chocolate chip (I can't stand peanut butter).

Tom

As long as they're accepting feedback, I'll reserve judgment on the final product, but how much can they change at this point without pissing off backers? I suspect many would feel bamboozled if things ended up diceless, or worse, closer to Houses of the Blooded :p

Yet that's what the system is at heart, and the current design is an incoherent mess because it's trying to not be those things ever so slightly. I think changes can and will happen, but to what degree will they be driven by design intents vs limited by what users will accept?

Quote from: Skywalker;878542Though I think giving away old edition PDFs away is a good idea, throwing all the new stuff in seems silly. You can make money by just giving away more stuff but it's not really profit. I hope that he doesn't over extend himself too much.

On this at least I have faith.

Quote from: RPGPundit;884670Christ.  I didn't imagine there were that many 7th Sea fans. Or Wick fans.

One of these days I'll have to make me a kickstarter.

What? And reveal to the world the Emperor has no clothes? I look forward to it.

#PeepShow

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;884748Can't argue with 1 Million Dollars I suppose.

That's because it's an inanimate object.

Rice Krispies on the other hand...

Quote from: Starglyte;884768For me it was the setting. Was always a big fan of pirates, and this was the game at the time that encouraged pirate stuff.

Where are these pirates you speak of? Because there's a running joke among my friends that the Pirates of 7th Sea were just as mythical as the Ninjas in Legend of the 5 Rings.

Quote from: CRKrueger;884804You'll need a new storage device for all the pdfs,

Oh for fucks sake. And here I thought I was in error regarding your ability to discus in good faith.

These PDFs will be stored on OBS servers. My local Micro Center gives storage away for free every few months. A good tablet can be had for $50, which is far less than what most people are facing in shipping charges alone. And all that's assuming you don't have the required space on the storage devices you already own.

Try to keep up will you.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;884825Oh for fucks sake. And here I thought I was in error regarding your ability to discus in good faith.

These PDFs will be stored on OBS servers. My local Micro Center gives storage away for free every few months. A good tablet can be had for $50, which is far less than what most people are facing in shipping charges alone. And all that's assuming you don't have the required space on the storage devices you already own.

Try to keep up will you.

Umm...that was a joke, an exaggeration pointing to how many pdfs you're gonna get, which is like 50+.  In other words, a crapton of stuff.  In the end though, people are going to get a crapton of stuff and be playing...7th Sea 2.0.  Hype backfires unfairly.  People get 7.3 million figures from a Reaper Bones run, then find themselves with a whole bunch of plastic figures not sculpted as cleanly as their metal ones and they still have to paint them.  That's not Reaper's fault.

Some people are gonna look at this and see a pretty new book that's...still 7th Sea not all that different from the other 7th sea, see a bunch of campaign sourcebooks that aren't all that different from the last two times they bought those same campaign sourcebooks, and he's gonna take heat from it that ain't his problem or his fault.

The question I was answering was, can they deliver on the hype?  Not all of it no, because they're not packaging supermodels and the baby jesus with the other stuff.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;884825On this at least I have faith.

John Wick delivers, I grant you that. I will be interested to see if he can deliver even half the books slated for release in the timeframes given though TBH. Especially as he is working with a small publisher and only the first 2 of 11 books appears to have been started. They can't even mine the existing 1e library too much as only 3 books overlap that material.

Here's the thing, he now has to make something worth the million dollars he just got.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884866Here's the thing, he now has to make something worth the million dollars he just got.

That seems an unfair way to frame it. He needs to give the customers what they paid for at reasonable game industry prices. The fact that there a lot of customers is really beside the point.

Yeah, I know that Exalted had a huge Kickstarter that caught an equally big backlash, but that came down to big promises and still not even really being out yet after all these years.

Quote from: Baulderstone;884870That seems an unfair way to frame it. He needs to give the customers what they paid for at reasonable game industry prices. The fact that there a lot of customers is really beside the point.

How so?  How is it unfair.  He has 1,000,000 dollars to work with, these are now the expectations.

Quote from: Baulderstone;884870Yeah, I know that Exalted had a huge Kickstarter that caught an equally big backlash, but that came down to big promises and still not even really being out yet after all these years.

So you're saying that 7th Sea is the same? :confused:

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884913How so?  How is it unfair.  He has 1,000,000 dollars to work with, these are now the expectations.

I paid $60 for a single book and hopefully well done PDFs of existing 1st edition books that aren't fan scanned.  As a complete bonus I get all the 2nd edition PDFs essentially for free.  He hit 1m by giving AMAZING discounts -- not by promising good quality.

If in the end the stuff isn't as great as I hoped then I'm out the equivalent of the price of a single RPG book from the LGS's shelves.  If it turns out the new stuff is great then I got an amazing deal.

Will there be hoopleheads who are upset that the project isn't 100% what they envisioned?  Absolutely.

Quote from: RPGPundit;884670Christ.  I didn't imagine there were that many 7th Sea fans. Or Wick fans.

One of these days I'll have to make me a kickstarter.

I've never heard of either before I saw this Kickstarter. He just made a real good sales pitch. 7th Sea seems compelling, so I pledged for a book and the metric bumton of pdf files.

Quote from: wmarshal;884783I'll admit that I didn't back the Conan Kickstarter because of the system. Nothing against that particular system except that it was new to me, and I have had a bit of system fatigue for the last several years.

I disliked 2d20 enough to not back it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;884748For those who do play or played, is the main attraction the setting or the system (or both)?

It mainly seems to be the setting. I myself never played the game. I dislike what I saw of the system in the quickstart document and as much as I enjoy pirate fantasy, there's nothing to this pirate fantasy setting that makes it stand out.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;884748Can't argue with 1 Million Dollars I suppose. I never played 7th Sea but it is one of those games that was always on the shelf and always seemed to have some sort of fanbase.

For those who do play or played, is the main attraction the setting or the system (or both)?

It was a combination of both. You have to remember, for guys like me who are just NOW entering our mid 30's, our introduction to roleplaying was more likely to be World of Darkness than Dungeons and Dragons.

The Roll and Keep system was close enough to WoD to make it very easy to pick up. More than that, the game set out to make you a bad ass from the beginning. A 7th Sea starting character was far more competent than one in any WoD game or a 1st level Dungeons and Dragons character.

The system also had enough Bells and Whistles to make your character feel unique. Every Nation having it's own dueling style, as well as magic, along with a host of merits you could purchase made sure you felt mechanically "unique".

In retrospect it's a good system for the late 90's....which means it's ugly as hell and shows lots of age by today's standards..

Still my friends and I managed to patch enough holes in the system over time we got it to work for us. The Dueling system and fighting "Brute packs" were lots of fun, particularly after we changed the broken styles and sped them up with a few hacks..

But then there was the setting..

I think a lot of the posters on here cannot really understand just how popular 7th Sea was...Everyone in my gaming neck of the woods was playing it. Everyone was always up for playing it when another campaign of something else was finishing up.

As it's been said the "Not-Europe" with it's mix up of myth and history in bite sized enough chunks you didn't need to be a history major to understand it all, is what really made it sing..

You could play Pirates of the Caribbean (Well not really, but more on that in a moment), The Princess Bride, The 3 Muskateers, The man in the Iron Mask, The Scarlet Pimpernal...

The game had a healthy amount of both Male and Female players too, and unlike it's L5R counterpart... the NPC's didn't exist to steal the show from the players... they existed to make your players do awesome things in tandem with them... (Later on in the second half of 7th Sea's life, this would change dramatically as AEG fell into their old trap of having the NPC's doing everything important while your PC's stood around in awe).

You also had the problem with the complete lack of a New World. A poor design decision which from what I understand was not actually Wick's part, but AEG's... (Wick also wanted starting characters to be even more powerful but mandate forced him to tone it back some).

Now years later the big draw is seeing the setting for what it was SUPPOSE to be. The inclusion of the new world solves a lot of 7th Sea's problems...since now the Pirates actually have a fucking place to go..

The inclusion of a Faux Poland helps patch some of the holes in Theah as well.

As for the Mechanics? I'm not thrilled by them...but there are some aspects I'll probably steal and use in my house rules 7th Sea 1st edition.

But yes, I have dyed in the wool True blue Dungeons and Dragons players who tell me, that to this day the best campaign they ever played in was my 7th sea game.

Now I'll toot my own horn and say part of that is I'm a damn good GM. But part of it also is 7th Sea allows for some of the greatest game play in RPGdom.

I really can't believe I can't pull the trigger on backing this KS.

Like others here, I absolutely love 7th Sea 1e (and I also fully acknowledge its got issues).

Is the KS a crazy good deal? Yeah, it is. $60 + shipping gets you one hardback and a gazillion PDFs both from 1e and 2e.

The problem FOR ME is that I've read the Quickstart and some actual play reviews, plus lots of Wick's commentary, and the more I read, the less I feel that 7th Sea 2e is going to fit with how I run RPGs.

Moreover, I don't trust Wick to not turn 7th Sea in to SJW Swashbuckling.

Like Conan 2D20, 7th Sea 2e is this weird amalgam of traditional & Forge ideas and I don't see that working for me.

But its weird to be a 7th Sea fan walking away from this KS. Oh well.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885031Moreover, I don't trust Wick to not turn 7th Sea in to SJW Swashbuckling.

This is very unlikely to happen. John is not part of the RPG SJW clique. In fact, most of his fellow writer friends aren't part of it either.

Now Wick has always been progressive, hence the original 7th sea having women be considered equals to men in most of the countries of Theah (Most but not all, Vodacce being the big exception), but I really don't think Wick is going to be moralizing toward the same regressive Left he himself finds annoying as fuck.

Yeah, I don't think that is going to happen either.

And, if it does, I still have a stack of 7th Sea 1e and 2e PDFs to pillage for my B/X game. I couldn't care less about the system, the setting material is what will save me time. I can edit out anything excessively patronizing.

Quote from: Orphan81;885034This is very unlikely to happen. John is not part of the RPG SJW clique. In fact, most of his fellow writer friends aren't part of it either.

Now Wick has always been progressive, hence the original 7th sea having women be considered equals to men in most of the countries of Theah (Most but not all, Vodacce being the big exception), but I really don't think Wick is going to be moralizing toward the same regressive Left he himself finds annoying as fuck.

I'll add to this by saying I've been reading Wick's facebook postings for a while now because he talks about the design process there, so I see a lot of his political thoughts too. He really doesn't strike me as an SJW. Though he has many flaws, a lack of skepticism in that department doesn't appear to be one of them. But hey, you never know.

Also, I once found a forum post of his where he basically said that the scope creep of 7th Sea's Sophia's Daughters secret society wasn't his idea. He didn't see the point of it becoming a continent-wide feminist conspiracy when he had already made 95% of the setting egalitarian.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885031The problem FOR ME is that I've read the Quickstart and some actual play reviews, plus lots of Wick's commentary, and the more I read, the less I feel that 7th Sea 2e is going to fit with how I run RPGs.

Not your cuppa tea, eh? I'm curious what it was about the Quickstart that made you feel this way because for me it had the opposite effect.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885031The problem FOR ME is that I've read the Quickstart and some actual play reviews, plus lots of Wick's commentary, and the more I read, the less I feel that 7th Sea 2e is going to fit with how I run RPGs.

While I still have my concerns and misgivings, this review (https://www.reddit.com/r/7thSea/comments/49vnsz/a_positive_take_on_2nd_edition/) of the kickstarter did start to confirm a few things I was already thinking.  First, that the # of consequences is another way of expressing task difficulty.  Second, that opportunities don't always have to be frontloaded.

That said, I'm still concerned about the sheer OOC verbage of presenting consequences.  On paper, it reads like it pulls you right out of the moment.

See, I don't really have an issue with a few meta-game levels in an RPG.  I really just like the game system to fade into the background until it doesn't.  And when it doesn't, I want it to be fun.  Savage Worlds does this beautifully. In it's current state, I'm not so sure 7Sv2 does.  

But I love 1st edition too much not to throw some support towards a new, rebooted vision.  Even if ultimately I end up playing with a v1.5 homebrew.

QuoteMoreover, I don't trust Wick to not turn 7th Sea in to SJW Swashbuckling.

Is this really a thing?  Other than L5R (of which I'm ambivalent) and 7th Sea (which I love), I have no experience with any of John Wick's games.  So why the SJW concern?  Or is this part of the whole "Theah doesn't have slavery" argument?

Tom

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;885082I'm curious what it was about the Quickstart that made you feel this way because for me it had the opposite effect.

FOR ME, it feels like bowling with kiddie bumpers. 7th Sea 1e was all about Big Damn Heroes, but failure and even death was an option. It was not lethal like L5R 1e, but still felt like players were risking some failure in their actions. Consequences feel like frowny faces, not the sting of failure.

Most importantly TO ME, the new system focuses on meta-game rules as more important than immersive elements. The actual plays I read felt like those meta game elements (like with 2D20 Conan) and narrative elements were the focus at the table as well.  

Maybe I'm wrong, but in reading the Quickstart, nothing in the rules made me feel that I would be happy running 2e, compared to 1e.

Could I hammer 2e into something I'd enjoy running? Maybe, but I don't see the ROI for my investment of time.

Quote from: Blusponge;885095See, I don't really have an issue with a few meta-game levels in an RPG.  I really just like the game system to fade into the background until it doesn't.  And when it doesn't, I want it to be fun.  Savage Worlds does this beautifully. In it's current state, I'm not so sure 7Sv2 does.

We all have our limit on how much meta-game works for us. Only we can answer for ourselves what personally feels "too meta-gamey" so that's why I can only judge for myself.

FOR ME, Savage Worlds is the absolute limit, and I know much of my tolerance comes from my love of playing with toys and terrain when running RPGs. Savage Worlds allows me fast large combats with toys so I bite my tongue on its meta-game stuff.

Neither 2D20 Conan nor 7Sv2 appears to offer me something in exchange for the meta game wonkiness. And I almost pulled the trigger on 2D20 Conan because I am getting a shit ton of Conan minis and multiple boards from the Conan boardgame which would be perfect to use in the 2D20 RPG.

Quote from: Blusponge;885095So why the SJW concern?  Or is this part of the whole "Theah doesn't have slavery" argument?

More gut reaction to Wick's postings over the years, and especially because his recent work has gotten more attention from the storygame crowd than from traditional RPGers.

Again, maybe I am wrong. My gut is lumping Wick in with the SJW storygame crowd and perhaps that is totally unfair.

I don't have a problem with 7th Sea 1e's egalitarian focus. I felt the gender issues were actually interesting setting elements (Vodacce's rules for their women, the secret society of booty calls, Avalon's Queen and her court, etc) all added fun and texture to the game.

I knew a GM whose Crescent Empire would raid the coasts for slaves, but I don't think Theah needs slavery. The "serfs vs. nobles" class warfare is well represented - and that's more palatable to gamers than slavery.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885140FOR ME, it feels like bowling with kiddie bumpers. 7th Sea 1e was all about Big Damn Heroes, but failure and even death was an option. It was not lethal like L5R 1e, but still felt like players were risking some failure in their actions. Consequences feel like frowny faces, not the sting of failure.

The 1st ed core books were very clear that death is usually not on the table, specifically to encourage the players to do crazy things.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;885065I'll add to this by saying I've been reading Wick's facebook postings for a while now because he talks about the design process there, so I see a lot of his political thoughts too. He really doesn't strike me as an SJW. Though he has many flaws, a lack of skepticism in that department doesn't appear to be one of them. But hey, you never know.

Wick is both a member of the Libertarian Party and a Sanders supporter.

But then, so am I. :D

JG

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;885151The 1st ed core books were very clear that death is usually not on the table, specifically to encourage the players to do crazy things.

This right here, Death was not suppose to happen typically in 7th Sea. There was an eventual sidebar that said "So you just took 20 dramatic wounds" which came in a later supplement...

If anything, the new 7th Sea seems to be deadlier than the 1st edition. Villains can actually out and out KILL Heroes with an action, which they couldn't do in the first.

Quote from: Orphan81;885186If anything, the new 7th Sea seems to be deadlier than the 1st edition. Villains can actually out and out KILL Heroes with an action, which they couldn't do in the first.

I absolutely did not see that in the Quickstart. That would make it much deadlier than 1e.

Mea culpa.

Quote from: Orphan81;885186If anything, the new 7th Sea seems to be deadlier than the 1st edition. Villains can actually out and out KILL Heroes with an action, which they couldn't do in the first.

No, that rule was there in 1st edition too. If you wanted to kill a knocked out character, you had to spend an action to do so (a coupe-de-gras essentially).

Tom

Quote from: Spinachcat;885192I absolutely did not see that in the Quickstart. That would make it much deadlier than 1e.

Mea culpa.

Yeah, it's spelled out that a hero who fills up with dramaticmatic wounds is helpless and any villain character near them can spend an action to kill them.

There are a lot of ways to prevent this, with allies giving up their actions to defend the helpless player or the expenditure of hero points, but it's spelled out the baddies can kill you if you run out of dramatic wounds.

Quote from: Orphan81;885229Yeah, it's spelled out that a hero who fills up with dramaticmatic wounds is helpless and any villain character near them can spend an action to kill them.

There are a lot of ways to prevent this, with allies giving up their actions to defend the helpless player or the expenditure of hero points, but it's spelled out the baddies can kill you if you run out of dramatic wounds.

Emphasis mine. And I think that's the key here. The game is setup to put the PCs in danger and be big damn heroes protecting their own against the baddies. I don't think it necessarily amounts to lethal levels of play here.

I know John Wick is loathe to kill PCs without the players consent (or ample warning at the very least) so I can't imagine a game of his design that kills PCs left and right.

I'm starting a game on Friday with the new rules, I'm excited to see how all the rules actually play out.

Quote from: James Gillen;885181Wick is both a member of the Libertarian Party and a Sanders supporter.

But then, so am I. :D

JG

I admit, I'm having a hard time reconciling the idea one can advocate Libertarianism with Sanders' Democratic socialism.

Quote from: camazotz;885321I admit, I'm having a hard time reconciling the idea one can advocate Libertarianism with Sanders' Democratic socialism.

True, but it's a little easier to reconcile libertarianism with Sanders than to reconcile it with Democratic Party statism (Clinton) or Republican Gonzo-fascism-without-the-brains (Drumpf).

JG

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;884748For those who do play or played, is the main attraction the setting or the system (or both)?

I think a lot of its appeal was in being a 'pirate' game, something that hadn't been handled much in a major way until then.

While we're loosely on the topic of Kickstarters going big when they offer a metric assload of PDFs...

The Modiphius Conan 2d20 Kickstarter now offers when you get a backer level that gives you all PDFs...

...All the Mongoose Conan d20 PDFs.

So 58 USD gets you all the 2d20 PDFs and all the d20 PDFs.

It's a good day to be a Conan gamer.

Quote from: CRKrueger;885741While we're loosely on the topic of Kickstarters going big when they offer a metric assload of PDFs...

The Modiphius Conan 2d20 Kickstarter now offers when you get a backer level that gives you all PDFs...

...All the Mongoose Conan d20 PDFs.

So 58 USD gets you all the 2d20 PDFs and all the d20 PDFs.

It's a good day to be a Conan gamer.

Nice!

Quote from: CRKrueger;884851Umm...that was a joke,

Isn't everything?

Quote from: CRKrueger;884851can they deliver on the hype?  Not all of it no,

Managing expectations is a bitch, especially when you don't know what people expect.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884866Here's the thing, he now has to make something worth the million dollars he just got.

Why? As long as you get what you paid for why should this matter?

Quote from: Blusponge;885095First, that the # of consequences is another way of expressing task difficulty.

Actually no, it isn't, because consequences do not make the task more difficult, only add additional outcomes to it. And if the examples in the Quickstart seem to imply otherwise, it's because they're bad examples and will be corrected in future revisions :D

The concept of Task Difficulty is one of the things that's going to bedevil this design something awful, because it's an arbitrary number set by the GM which can only make the character less awesome (I might not get what I want), yet necessary when characters are pursuing mutually exclusive goals (only one of us gets what we want). And it will be interesting to see how John resolves it because I've been struggling with the same problem myself.

Quote from: camazotz;885321I admit, I'm having a hard time reconciling the idea one can advocate Libertarianism with Sanders' Democratic socialism.

Democratic Socialism is a made up word that people made up because they ran out of made up words that seem to mean something. But if you just take Sander's proposals into consideration, then you'll see how they actually enable Libertarianism, which currently is impossible.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;886822Managing expectations is a bitch, especially when you don't know what people expect.

Why? As long as you get what you paid for why should this matter?

Speaking of which, where's my dice that I backed your kickstarter for?  It probably wouldn't kill you to update, it's been two fucking years.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;886822Managing expectations is a bitch, especially when you don't know what people expect.

I think plenty of folks have made their thoughts, opinions, and hopes known. It hasn't been a big one-sided love fest. There's been plenty of talk about a version 1.5. And Wick and his crew have acknowledged it and repeatedly said they are listening to feedback. I think they have a clue about expectations.

QuoteActually no, it isn't, because consequences do not make the task more difficult, only add additional outcomes to it. And if the examples in the Quickstart seem to imply otherwise, it's because they're bad examples and will be corrected in future revisions :D

The concept of Task Difficulty is one of the things that's going to bedevil this design something awful, because it's an arbitrary number set by the GM which can only make the character less awesome (I might not get what I want), yet necessary when characters are pursuing mutually exclusive goals (only one of us gets what we want). And it will be interesting to see how John resolves it because I've been struggling with the same problem myself.

Completely disagree. What does failure mean?  If all failure means is, "no, you can't do that. You fail," then you might have a point. But it's generally not. There are always degrees of failure. Consequences map nicely to that. I kinda like my changing a tire example. Changing a tire wrong can get you killed. It's not just that you fail to change a tire and are stuck on the side of the road. (I understand in an RPG you'd almost never worry about a roll for this.)

In terms of 7th Sea v2, it's pretty clear that the difficulty dial is measured in consequences. Yes, you may accomplish your task, but at what cost? And in an Action Sequence, the only way to gaurantee success in a task is to devote ALL of your raises towards it. Which means bad things are going to happen to you.

Tom

I have played 7th Sea Second Edition last Friday and had fun.

The conflict resolution (Action Sequence) is interesting and while I was learning the process it felt a bit clunky, but that's true of new systems so I'm not overly worried or anything.
The system disappeared behind the action of characters and we all managed to have fun with cinematic style.

Also, making our characters was a lot of fun and very intuitive!

Quote from: jcfiala;886880Speaking of which, where's my dice that I backed your kickstarter for?  It probably wouldn't kill you to update, it's been two fucking years.

The update is in draft 79 for tone and intent, because despite all my efforts I still can't seem to reliably get those across the internet. Also content because apparently saying things about even one's competitors can make them hesitant to work with you. Also solutions because any resolution I present will appear to favor some backers over others unless I can immediately meet everyone's needs.

I'm confused, ashamed, and angry over how this whole thing turned out and worried about how that might bleed into my communications to just make things worse for everyone. It has before. But considering this year has not been any better, I'm probably just gonna say fuck it and shoot from the hip after a few glasses of wine.

Quote from: Blusponge;886886I think they have a clue about expectations.

I was referring to the unreasonable expectations over this being a million dollar Kickstarter. What do people expect to get that's different than if it was half or a quarter that?

Quote from: Blusponge;886886What does failure mean?

Quote from: Blusponge;886886it's pretty clear that the difficulty dial is measured in consequences.

The classic definitions for 'failure' and 'difficulty' don't apply to 7th Sea and this conceptual mismatch is already causing problems.

For example, Consequences only make achieving your Intent more difficult (less likely) when they undermine your actual Intent. So if you're leaping on a rooftop to avoid capture but assume that last part was a given based on the situation, then being captured as a Consequence would have to be bought off to get what you really Intended. But I'm pretty sure Consequences are not supposed to be used that way, especially when they're stated before action is taken to avoid exactly these kinds of misunderstandings, but if people conceptually equate them to difficulty modifiers they will be.

Quote from: Blusponge;886886in an Action Sequence, the only way to gaurantee success in a task is to devote ALL of your raises towards it. Which means bad things are going to happen to you.

Not if the above happens, because then there's no way to achieve success at all. If you spend all your Raises on Intent, then the Consequence will render that moot. And if you spend all your Raises to buy off the Consequences, then you haven't achieved your Intent.

Which reminds me, I'm still not clear on whether Consequences are based on taking Action or achieving your Intent, because the former means you can spend Raises on Intent and Consequences independently, but the latter (like in your tire example) means Consequences can't even occur without achieving your Intent first, because you can't potentially fall through the roof if you don't successfully leap on it first.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;888270Which reminds me, I'm still not clear on whether Consequences are based on taking Action or achieving your Intent, because the former means you can spend Raises on Intent and Consequences independently, but the latter (like in your tire example) means Consequences can't even occur without achieving your Intent first, because you can't potentially fall through the roof if you don't successfully leap on it first.

How it actually works:
If you spend raises towards your Intent, you have indeed reduced (thus mitigated or negated) the Consequence.

In simpler terms:
You tell the GM what you're up to.
You tell the GM how you're gonna do it (Trait + Skill + whatever advantages).
GM says, the consequence to failure is X and requires N number of raises.
Roll.
If you make enough raises (match dice to get 10s) to match N, you avoid the Consequence, using the raises to describe the action (How you achieve your intent).
If you don't make enough raises to match N, you mitigate the Consequence, using the raises to describe the action (How you achieve your intent). The GM describes what happens with a mitigated consequence.
If you make no raises (roll horribly), the GM describes the result of the Consequence.

In layman's terms, you tell the GM what you're up to and how you intend to do it, he says if you fail this happens.
You roll. You get to describe your actions ("I slash the rope and hang on to it, the crate comes down and I rise up to the rafters"), the more raises you make, the more actions you get to describe (basically telling folks how your character is a big damn hero and stuff).
The GM completes the description of what happens based on how well you rolled.
It's actually very smooth and straightforward when you play it or run it.

I think the key is to keep things loose enough not to get bogged down by the terms used to describe the action sequence.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;888270The update is in draft 79 for tone and intent, because despite all my efforts I still can't seem to reliably get those across the internet. Also content because apparently saying things about even one's competitors can make them hesitant to work with you. Also solutions because any resolution I present will appear to favor some backers over others unless I can immediately meet everyone's needs.

I'm confused, ashamed, and angry over how this whole thing turned out and worried about how that might bleed into my communications to just make things worse for everyone. It has before. But considering this year has not been any better, I'm probably just gonna say fuck it and shoot from the hip after a few glasses of wine.

It's been over two years, without even a comment on the project or even returning any of the messages sent to you.  It's time to man up and do something.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;888270The classic definitions for 'failure' and 'difficulty' don't apply to 7th Sea and this conceptual mismatch is already causing problems.

If by classic definitions, you mean the you critical failure/failure/success/critical success model that has been around since the dawn of RPGs, then no.  I agree.  But that's not what I said.  What exactly is failure.  REALLY simplistic example: I take a test.  I can succeed (A) or fail (F), but that leaves out everything in the middle.  From my reading of the QS rules (I have no insight beyond that), one Raise would buy you a C (or maybe a D for a really tough test). B and A would cost you raises.  

QuoteFor example, Consequences only make achieving your Intent more difficult (less likely) when they undermine your actual Intent. So if you're leaping on a rooftop to avoid capture but assume that last part was a given based on the situation, then being captured as a Consequence would have to be bought off to get what you really Intended. But I'm pretty sure Consequences are not supposed to be used that way, especially when they're stated before action is taken to avoid exactly these kinds of misunderstandings, but if people conceptually equate them to difficulty modifiers they will be.

Sorry, but no.  Consequences do not have to undermine your intent (failure!) to make your task more difficult.  If you try to jump a 10 foot pit and find yourself clinging to the far edge for dear life as the bad guys race to catch up with you so they can riddle you with bullets, did you fail?  No, but things are pretty complicated.  You didn't fall in the pit.  You made it to the other side, just not in the ideal state you would have preferred.  That would be an example of a consequence:

Player: "I jump the pit."
GM: "Ok, but its a pretty good jump and the ground is treacherous.  You might have to pull yourself up on the far side (1 consequence).  And the bad guys are shooting at you (1+ consequence) and racing to catch up with you (1 consequence).  Go ahead and roll your X+X."
Player: (Rolls) "Two Raises"
GM: "Ok, so what happens?"
Player: "Umm...?!"

Now maybe you don't see this as making the task more "difficult".  And that's fine.  We can differ on that perspective.  And I could be terribly off base.  The corebook might come out and say, in big splashy bold print, CONSEQUENCES ≠ DIFFCULTY.  But it sure looks that way from where I'm sitting.

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;888374Now maybe you don't see this as making the task more "difficult".  And that's fine.  We can differ on that perspective.  And I could be terribly off base.  The corebook might come out and say, in big splashy bold print, CONSEQUENCES ≠ DIFFCULTY.  But it sure looks that way from where I'm sitting.

CONSEQUENCES ≠ DIFFICULTY

Consequences = what happens if you fail to make raises.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;888423CONSEQUENCES ≠ DIFFICULTY

Consequences = what happens if you fail to make raises.

So NUMBER OF RAISES = DIFFICULTY?

I guess I should have said NUMBER OF CONSEQUENCES = DIFFICULTY.

The game is weighted so that no raises are unlikely. It comes down to choices. So it would seem implicit that greater risks have more consequences.  But consequences aren't the same as failure. Instead, it means harder choices for the PCs.

Tom

So, any further news worth noting? Can anyone point me to any good discussions they've had on this game?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;900888So, any further news worth noting? Can anyone point me to any good discussions they've had on this game?

I have only played the quick-start, which I believe is going to have several things changed.

Plus points. It looks like everything will be out on time. The new map is much better. There are no longer 300 knacks to worry about.

Down sides. The new system seems to be weird just for the sake of being weird. The sword school example is abstract as hell and just nowhere near as cool as it used to be.

Also, as par for the course, Wick makes lost of speeches about how your characters will be awesome, and then the named antagonist in the Quickstart is basically godlike compared to them for no reason.

Basically overall, the quickstart more or less killed my interest.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;900888So, any further news worth noting? Can anyone point me to any good discussions they've had on this game?

There's a rough copy of the core rulebook that was released to backers a week or so ago?  I've been busy with RL stuff so I haven't even looked at it.  But schedule wise, I feel good about the core book.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;900888So, any further news worth noting? Can anyone point me to any good discussions they've had on this game?

If you are a backer of the kickstarter, the JWP team just released the preview PDF (meaning that it's mostly done and may be tweaked/fixed here and there).
The PDF looks gorgeous. I've been playing in a 7th Sea game and it's been a lot of fun! Still getting used to the mechanics of the game but character creation was straightforward, interacting with dangerous situations can get a bit complex, such as figuring out how to best get advantages to other PCs etc. For instance: Hero Points; if you spend 1 hero point on yourself, you get a bonus die; if you spend a Hero Point to help someone else (your character has to be helping them), they get 3 bonus dice.

I'm not done reading all of the nations, but I've been really happy with what I've read so far!

My recommendation: read it, play it (or run it). If you liked the 1st Edition, you will likely REALLY LIKE this one.

Quote from: jadrax;900907Basically overall, the quickstart more or less killed my interest.

Hmmm...I don't think that a very fair reflection of the finished game.

Man, I played through the rough draft of the game before they had finished character creation. Boy were those characters broken. This game sucks.

I mean, to each his own. It's not like the core concepts of the new engine have changed any, and if that's what turned you off, ok.

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;900918Hmmm...I don't think that a very fair reflection of the finished game.

Then maybe it should haven't been released.  The problem is, you one have one chance at a first impression, and if that's it...  It don't matter if the game is actually phenomenal if you kill all interest in the first go.

Quote from: Blusponge;900918Man, I played through the rough draft of the game before they had finished character creation. Boy were those characters broken. This game sucks.

I mean, to each his own. It's not like the core concepts of the new engine have changed any, and if that's what turned you off, ok.

Tom

Did you read the rest of his post?  The engine that the quickstart used, as well as typical Wickian head in his ass NPC design was the issue there.

Not a fan of the rules... Just, too Story-gamey for me. 7th Sea was always suppose to be cinematic but now it's this bizzarre match up of an almost kinda good dueling system tacked on to a rule set where the GM might as well let the players draw cards from a card deck for their actions with High being good and low being bad.

I didn't want dungeons and dragons at Sea, but I didn't want a system that might well have me sitting there 'spinnin' yarns' with my friends as one of my players put it. Or as another friend said, "This system makes me want to use it as little as possible, and I can see John Wick grinning like an asshole when I say that."

So yeah, system has to be completely jettisoned for my group, which really sucks.

The setting though? Setting is awesome.

"System blows, setting's awesome" has been my lament for pretty much the vast majority of game publishers out there, from AEG, WW, FASA...

The big deal for me was the entire 1e line on pdf without fighting collector prices. But then after awhile I thought of the conversion headache and realized I have "Havens of the Great Bay" Birthright if I want pirates. That and I like tangible books as pdfs just collect unread nowadays.

Oh well, maybe this time it'll be awesome! :)

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;886822Democratic Socialism is a made up word that people made up because they ran out of made up words that seem to mean something. But if you just take Sander's proposals into consideration, then you'll see how they actually enable Libertarianism, which currently is impossible.

Being a former recovered Libertarian, I don't see any real connection to Sanders' platform, but maybe the party has changed a lot since I was previously involved? Or is there something in Sander's message I'm not finding. His goals are pretty well diametrically opposed to any Libertarian stance I am familiar with.

As for democratic socialism....well, it may be made up but its advocates are pretty good at applying definition to the word, and nothing I've read on democratic socialism jives even remotely with Libertarianism.

But....enough thread derailment....

Quote from: Christopher Brady;900936Did you read the rest of his post?  The engine that the quickstart used, as well as typical Wickian head in his ass NPC design was the issue there.

Yup. System weirdness? Ok. Abstract dueling? Ditched after play testing feedback. Badass antagonist who owns the PC in one-on-one fight? Irrelevant, since they ditched the dueling system. That leaves...system weirdness. And I did say if that's your hang up, then ok. As for "typical Wickian head in ass NPC design" I don't really know anything about that.  7th Sea and L5R are the only John Wick games I've ever played. I never really saw any asshatry thee when it came to NPCs, so...

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;900992As for "typical Wickian head in ass NPC design" I don't really know anything about that.  7th Sea and L5R are the only John Wick games I've ever played. I never really saw any asshatry thee when it came to NPCs, so...

When he worked on L5R and 7th Sea the first time around he had to work with a team that held back his excesses. Look at some of the games he's worked on since then and notice what people frequently say about them. Houses of the Blooded for instance.

Yeah he is the George Lucas of tabletop.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901005Houses of the Blooded for instance.

I was reading that game earlier this week... the whole first part was Wick waffling on about how the game is 'anti-D&D' and spending a lot of words trying to convince me that the Ven (pretty much the Melniboneans from Elric) are some actual historical people he's uncovered.

Quote from: Snowman0147;901011Yeah he is the George Lucas of tabletop.

With less skill and prestige.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901005When he worked on L5R and 7th Sea the first time around he had to work with a team that held back his excesses. Look at some of the games he's worked on since then and notice what people frequently say about them. Houses of the Blooded for instance.

Your claims are unfounded.

Quote from: Simlasa;901027I was reading that game earlier this week... the whole first part was Wick waffling on about how the game is 'anti-D&D' and spending a lot of words trying to convince me that the Ven (pretty much the Melniboneans from Elric) are some actual historical people he's uncovered.

If you can't see the fun in that, the game might not be for you.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;901072If you can't see the fun in that, the game might not be for you.

I CAN see the fun in it, up to a point... it's a familiar ploy... but he passed that point and it went from being cute to 'Why does he keep on about this?' It's self-referential game fiction... not rules or setting.

Maybe the aliens with lost tech come back?

Quote from: Simlasa;901074I CAN see the fun in it, up to a point... it's a familiar ploy... but he passed that point and it went from being cute to 'Why does he keep on about this?' It's self-referential game fiction... not rules or setting.

Well, it didn't go as far as calling players "translators" and the GM "Professor" or anything like that, so to me it didn't hurt the gaming experience a single bit.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;901071Your claims are unfounded.

I suppose it is just a personal subjective observation backed up by a handful of other similar opinions, yes.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;901083Well, it didn't go as far as calling players "translators" and the GM "Professor" or anything like that, so to me it didn't hurt the gaming experience a single bit.

You just know somebody is working on that for GameChef 2016 right now.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901087I suppose it is just a personal subjective observation backed up by a handful of other similar opinions, yes.

*eyeroll* lol, fine.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;901093*eyeroll* lol, fine.

What? Was that not a fair response?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901119What? Was that not a fair response?

You were going for fair?
Ok, well since I'm curious now: what is your premise? That John Wick puts out a good game when in a team, but somehow when he's on his own puts out subpar NPCs?
Based on what I could infer, fairness had little to do with your response, other than you admitted that it's just your opinion and my response of "Your claims are unfounded" is still accurate. So, an eyeroll and a lol is what you get. :)

Now, for the topic at hand: has anyone played the game itself?
I have. I had a lot of fun in spite of some confusion engendered by the new system (understanding the dueling system before the game helps when you want to play a duelist, that was my bad for not reading it carefully ahead of time). I would do definitely recommend it, and play it again.

Any specific questions about the system out there? (all I can give is my understanding of it and experience of it).

Anyone else has read the review PDF? (I have not read all of it, but focused on the sections that pertained to my character).

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;901123You were going for fair?
Ok, well since I'm curious now: what is your premise? That John Wick puts out a good game when in a team, but somehow when he's on his own puts out subpar NPCs?
Based on what I could infer, fairness had little to do with your response, other than you admitted that it's just your opinion and my response of "Your claims are unfounded" is still accurate. So, an eyeroll and a lol is what you get. :)

I'm still confused about how my polite concession deserves eyerolls and mocking laughter.

Quote from: Nihilistic MindAny specific questions about the system out there? (all I can give is my understanding of it and experience of it).

Yes actually. What are the sorceries now?
The first thing that started to turn me off of 2nd edition was the fact that he was removing Pyeryem from Ussura. That seemed like fixing what wasn't broken. I would like to know what his better idea was. I also want to know what the new faux-Poland sorcery is, if fire magic still exists in Castille and what has changed in the other sorceries.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901130I'm still confused about how my polite concession deserves eyerolls and mocking laughter.

I was being playful. "Lol"does not equal mocking laughter either.. I didn't mean to offend you.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901130Yes actually. What are the sorceries now?
The first thing that started to turn me off of 2nd edition was the fact that he was removing Pyeryem from Ussura. That seemed like fixing what wasn't broken. I would like to know what his better idea was. I also want to know what the new faux-Poland sorcery is, if fire magic still exists in Castille and what has changed in the other sorceries.

I'll take a look at these specifically tonight and update.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901130The first thing that started to turn me off of 2nd edition was the fact that he was removing Pyeryem from Ussura. That seemed like fixing what wasn't broken. I would like to know what his better idea was. I also want to know what the new faux-Poland sorcery is, if fire magic still exists in Castille and what has changed in the other sorceries.

I can answer that.  Pyeryem is still in there after a fashion.  The new Ussuran sorcery is called "Mother's Touch."  Essentially, at some point in your life you ran into Matushka and she gave you a gift and a consequence (a "restriction').  Gifts include Transformation (assume one of a list of animal forms), but also Command (animals), Purify (poisons and disease), and Storm.  Restrictions include Kindness, Honesty, and Forgiveness. If you break one of these restrictions, you have to perform a penance before you can use that power again.  The list of animals Transformation allows includes: Bear, Boar, Cat, Fish, Fox, Goat, Horse, Mouse, Owl, Rabbit, Raven, Reindeer, Snake, Turtle, Wolf.  I haven't compared it to 1st ed Pyeryem, but that the overall effect feels about the same.

The Sarmatian sorcery is called Sanderis and involves making bargains for power with the old gods (the dievas). There is some comparison to the Unseelie fae or crossroads demons.  The church doesn't really approve but has never been able to convince the people of the Commonwealth otherwise.  Making a bargain entitles the Sarmatian to certain favors but there is a cost involved.  This could be a simple thing ("Make a toast in my name.") or something wicked ("In Eisen, there are two brothers named Dietrich and Alfons Weber. Convince one of them to betray the other in order to secure the whole of their father’s inheritance for themselves. I do not care which.”).  Each "god" has a theme (Darkness, Fire, Cold, Storm, Sea, etc.).  Wanna recreate that El Fuego effect?  A Fire Dievas can help you do that.  And, as you might expect, trying to weasel out of a bargain has consequences.

Otherwise, Porte and Sorte are still there and mostly how you remember them.  Dracheneisen is out as a sorcery (its still there, just rare) and replaced by Hexenwerk (Eisen Necromancy, which is gross).  Glamour is there, but different.  If you like King Arthur, you'll love it.  If you don't, well...  It's actually a great set up and easily expanded to include a lot of what the original had going for it.

As for El Fuego, I haven't really finished the Castille section so I can't say if the rumors of "fire sorcerers" remains.  A quick search of the pdf doesn't turn anything up.  But that won't mean it won't turn up later (or be converted by some enterprising third party).

I should point out that, like Dueling Academies, Sorceries are no longer "tiered" (Apprentice, Journeyman, Master).

Tom

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;901138I was being playful. "Lol"does not equal mocking laughter either.. I didn't mean to offend you.

Ok, I'm sorry then.

Quote from: BluspongeI can answer that.

Thank you.

To me, it looks like he has doubled-down on some sorceries being too flexible and stepping on the toes of others again. The best ones were Porte, El Fuego, Sorte and Pyeryem because they were focused and limited. Glamour 1.0 could do what several other sorceries put together could and more. Now this new Poland magic sounds just as bad. Sigh.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901268To me, it looks like he has doubled-down on some sorceries being too flexible and stepping on the toes of others again. The best ones were Porte, El Fuego, Sorte and Pyeryem because they were focused and limited. Glamour 1.0 could do what several other sorceries put together could and more. Now this new Poland magic sounds just as bad. Sigh.

I wouldn't say so. Making the pact lets you do one thing at a time. You can do up to six things, with an ever increasing number of obligations to your sinister patron. I suppose if you wanted to copy another sorcery, you could through this pact. This could actually be a good character background. But, you have a lot of obligations, then. If you know Sorte, you know all of it. If you want to copy it with this, ... It's quite literally a deal with a devil.

It's not like you can change the gift...

With Glamour, it seems like you become really good at two archetypal skills and have one trick depending on who you are a reincarnation of. You can't change it from day to day. Your archetype / incarnation is fixed once chosen.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901268To me, it looks like he has doubled-down on some sorceries being too flexible and stepping on the toes of others again. The best ones were Porte, El Fuego, Sorte and Pyeryem because they were focused and limited. Glamour 1.0 could do what several other sorceries put together could and more. Now this new Poland magic sounds just as bad. Sigh.

I'm not so sure about that.  Both Glamour (Knights of Avalon) and Sanderis are flexible in that the player gets to choose a "theme" for the powers that they have.  I don't think the Sanderis sorcerer is meant to be going around making deals with too many dievas.  So you pick one at the start, and you kinda stick with it.  Mother's Touch is pretty versatile, but it fits conceptually.  I haven't seen any evidence that one can replicate or substitute the effects of another at this point.  

Tom

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901268Ok, I'm sorry then.

No worries, bro.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;901268To me, it looks like he has doubled-down on some sorceries being too flexible and stepping on the toes of others again. The best ones were Porte, El Fuego, Sorte and Pyeryem because they were focused and limited. Glamour 1.0 could do what several other sorceries put together could and more. Now this new Poland magic sounds just as bad. Sigh.

I feel like Sorceries have a bit more freedom associated to them, but they are also meant to be tailored to the PC build. I definitely don't think that's a bad thing.

I get the impression that you would be dissatisfied no matter what changes were made. Am I wrong? What would you have liked to see?

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;902383I get the impression that you would be dissatisfied no matter what changes were made. Am I wrong? What would you have liked to see?

A fix of the existing 1e R&K system first and foremost, then a light-touch update on the setting. Change as little as possible, replace the time-proven inferior shit first, don't alter stuff that no one was complaining about.

A lot of this feels like change for change's sake, difference for difference's sake.

For the record, I think adding Sarmatia was a good idea, but it sounds like he's excessively in love with the damn place and it's sucking up a lot of creative oxygen. Someone in the playtest has compared it to a "Mary Sue" nation, which makes me worry.

On a purely personal note, I'm one of the few 7th Sea GMs who felt that the New World was not necessary because the game made it clear you were supposed to fill the western sea with mysterious islands of adventure for those ships and pirates to go to, and I did. I felt the point of the setting was "European Swashbuckle-land" with the best elements of several different swashbuckling periods mashed together anachronistically, not "Getting so close to the actual 17th century world that I might as well play in the real world with some magic thrown in" (and I'm seriously mulling that over lately).

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;902398A fix of the existing 1e R&K system first and foremost, then a light-touch update on the setting. Change as little as possible, replace the time-proven inferior shit first, don't alter stuff that no one was complaining about.

I think 1st edition was a rough diamond that needed a bit (o.k. a lot) of polish to be a truly great game.

Instead, they have chucked the diamond away and now look to be releasing a rough sapphire for no reason.

It looks like it is one hell of a missed opportunity.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;902398"Getting so close to the actual 17th century world that I might as well play in the real world with some magic thrown in" (and I'm seriously mulling that over lately).

The 17th century does have an immense amount of setting material to use. One can go for something that is fairly close to reality - like Dumas' romance novels e.g. The Three Musketeers or The Man in the Iron Mask or one can go with something a bit farther from reality like the clock-punk world of the 2011 Three Musketeers movie. Creating a world where magic exists isn't going to be any crazier than dirigibles armed with rotating auto-cannons.

Quote from: Bren;902401The 17th century does have an immense amount of setting material to use. One can go for something that is fairly close to reality - like Dumas' romance novels e.g. The Three Musketeers or The Man in the Iron Mask or one can go with something a bit farther from reality like the clock-punk world of the 2011 Three Musketeers movie. Creating a world where magic exists isn't going to be any crazier than dirigibles armed with rotating auto-cannons.

You could go with Regime Diabolique and a lot of the heavy lifting is done for you.

Quote from: Bren;902401...dirigibles armed with rotating auto-cannons.

Oh, so that is what I missed by not seeing this movie?

Quote from: Bren;902401...like the clock-punk world of the 2011 Three Musketeers movie. Creating a world where magic exists isn't going to be any crazier than dirigibles armed with rotating auto-cannons.

Wait, what?

I know I live in a cave, but seem to have missed this. Was it any good? (For a loose definition of good, anyway.)

Quote from: jadrax;902402You could go with Regime Diabolique and a lot of the heavy lifting is done for you.

True, I don't run either of the systems it uses, but I bought a basket load of the PDFs to steal stuff from. This cover art book was a big inspiration for adding in a bit of weird and magical to my campaign.
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Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;902403Oh, so that is what I missed by not seeing this movie?

That and Milla Jovovich jumping off a roof in her underthings.

I like the movie. It has almost nothing to do with Dumas, but probably the only film where Porthos is strong enough to be considered the Hercules of France (as Dumas describes him in the later novels) and useful enough so you can understand why he is friends with the others and vice versa.

Quote from: Baron Opal;902404Wait, what?

I know I live in a cave, but seem to have missed this. Was it any good? (For a loose definition of good, anyway.)

As I said, I like it.

In the Lester films from the 1970s fighting two opponents is dangerous and fighting 5, 6, or more at once just doesn't occur. The combat seems like what you get in Runequest/BRP, GURPS, and Flashing Blades. Combat in the 2011 film is over the top. There is a scene where Athos slashes and stabs his way one right after another through a bunch of Cardinal's Guards in less than a minute. That combat is more like D&D, Savage Worlds, Honor+Intrigue, and any game with mook rules. One of my players loves that scene, especially as she used the photos of the actor as pictures of her Musketeer PC.

Quote from: Bren;902415As I said, I like it.

In the Lester films from the 1970s fighting two opponents is dangerous and fighting 5, 6, or more at once just doesn't occur. The combat seems like what you get in Runequest/BRP, GURPS, and Flashing Blades. Combat in the 2011 film is over the top. There is a scene where Athos slashes and stabs his way one right after another through a bunch of Cardinal's Guards in less than a minute. That combat is more like D&D, Savage Worlds, Honor+Intrigue, and any game with mook rules. One of my players loves that scene, especially as she used the photos of the actor as pictures of her Musketeer PC.

That sounds exactly like how 7th Sea 2nd ed has PCs dealing with Brute Squads. Mowing through unskilled thugs with superior skill and ability is what it feels like. If that's what it looked like, it might be worth checking out. hmm.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;902417That sounds exactly like how 7th Sea 2nd ed has PCs dealing with Brute Squads. Mowing through unskilled thugs with superior skill and ability is what it feels like. If that's what it looked like, it might be worth checking out. hmm.

That's what it looked like. 4 against 40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paut4zNx-3c). The bit my player likes starts at 1:59.

Quote from: Bren;902423That's what it looked like. 4 against 40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paut4zNx-3c). The bit my player likes starts at 1:59.

I admit, that looks hella fun and right on par with some of the action scenes from the 2nd edition 7th Sea game I've been playing in. Cool. Gonna have to check it out!

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;902424I admit, that looks hella fun and right on par with some of the action scenes from the 2nd edition 7th Sea game I've been playing in. Cool. Gonna have to check it out!

Alright, you're making me curious enough that I want to ask more questions about 2nd ed if you don't mind.

- How does Vendel/Vesten society work now? I know they've dropped the cultural divide (which I thought was fascinating), but are they still at least faux-protestants with some Norse mythology trappings?

- How does Vendel rune magic work now?

- What details have emerged about how Cathay and the Crescent Empire will be handled?

- Has the original timeline been advanced in any way?

- Is the Zorro flavor all gone from Castille?

- Have many place names changed?

- Some playtesters complained a lot about the dueling rules. Did those get fixed?

- The fact that villains only get two stats caused some consternation and head scratching. How does it work out in actual play?

Vesten rune magic is gone, but might make a come back in the future. Who knows. The nation write up does mention runes. They have a cool national advantage that lets you be a skald and identify the true names of things.

The cultural divide is really blurred. The jarls are a warrior caste, responsible for protecting the citizens while the carls are the merchants and bankroll the country.

The timeline has been reset to 1668.

The dueling rules from the original QuickStart have been ditched. Duelists are combat monsters now-too much so for some people. The can use their maneuvers whenever now, not just during a "duel."

Villains get two stats (Strength and Influence) but also have a virtue, a hubris, and advantages. They've added details for determining effective skill ranks too if you need that level of detail. Villains are fine.

I haven't finished the Castille section, but I know "ranchos" are gone.

No details on Cathay yet, but Iskandar is on the map and there are a few clues dropped about it.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;902446- How does Vendel rune magic work now?

- Is the Zorro flavor all gone from Castille?

Rune magic isn't defined. I expect that's supplement fodder. However, if it is like the 1e Laerdom, it promises to be the most flexible magic available second only to Hexenwerk.

Zorro is alive and well. The main change, I think, is that they pull the curtain back a bit and reveal a secret or two that was in later splats in 1e. And the Spanish is improved so his name translated to "the Wanderer" rather than "the Homeless Fool". Or, so I've been told.

Sometimes I regret getting rid of my Seventh Sea books. If nothing else, Half Price Books pays in tiny bits of confetti, not money, and no one really needs a thimble full of confetti.

That disclaimer being delivered:  Where exactly is the appeal in changing just about everything about the game?  From what I read here this new edition sounds like its got less in common with the original game than the JJ Abrams Star Trek had with the original series.

Who, exactly, is it supposed to appeal to then?  People who didn't like the original?  Still not gonna like it, probably.  People who liked teh original? Definitely gonna lose most of them.  

Is there some massive subset of fans I was unaware of that really liked the Idea of Theah, but hated every part of its implementation?  Have these people been clamoring for years for a new Theah that didn't, in their opinions, suck?  

The rules changes I can take or leave, of course. Most people could. First, teh Roll and Keep system(s) were never really that well liked even by fans, and second of all Theah, much like Rokugan, was a setting that was bigger than a single RPG. You know, those damn card games that would regularly piss all over the RPG fans, and were the only way to really keep up with the metaplot, if that was your bag.

So... yeah.  I don't quite get it.  Its like if you were to open a fried chicken place and call it Burger King II.

Quote from: Spike;902810That disclaimer being delivered:  Where exactly is the appeal in changing just about everything about the game?  From what I read here this new edition sounds like its got less in common with the original game than the JJ Abrams Star Trek had with the original series.

People are curious as to what is new, so everything being brought up pertains to the differences between 1st and 2nd Edition, this may skew your view of it. There are differences, but it is very much Theah and it is very much a fun roleplaying game with swashbuckling adventure as its central theme. Does that help?

Quote from: Spike;902810Is there some massive subset of fans I was unaware of that really liked the Idea of Theah, but hated every part of its implementation?  Have these people been clamoring for years for a new Theah that didn't, in their opinions, suck?  

Well, I'm kind of in  that boat. I really couldn't care less about the system, I am interested in the setting for my plane travelling campaign. I like the idea of bloodlines of magic in not-Europe, and I was able to get all of the 1e and 2e materials on the cheap. I never had any books from 1e. I never really liked the implementation of Laerdom, so I'm interested to see where that goes. I'm also interested in seeing where the new Syrneth backstory goes.

More grist for my mill.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;902835There are differences, but it is very much Theah and it is very much a fun roleplaying game with swashbuckling adventure as its central theme. Does that help?

Is it?  From this thread I've learned there is an entire new country shoved in there. I've learned that the fake russians have a new different, but weirdly similar magic system, that laerdom is gone, that the vendel/vesten split has been redone entirely, that the Castillians now have magic, as do the Eisen aparently, though no more dracheneisen.

At a quick skim I can see that if you were a fan of any given nation of Theah, and their unique character, that something... drastic... has been done to your favorite nation and its unique character. Some are clearly more touched than others... the fake russians at least sound similar to who they used to be, but the fake vikings have been gutted, stuffed and propped up as a sham of who they used to be.

This isn't tinkering on the margins, or the ritual sacrifice of sacred cows (parenthetically: Its the slaughter of the entire herd of helios, plus a few herds of ordinary cows just to make sure you got 'em all...), its goddamn ghostbusters 3.

Well, sort of.

There is a new country of non-Russian slavs, and they have their own magic. The Russian magic is expanded beyond just shape shifting. Rune magic is still present, but not detailed in these rules. How it will ultimately manifest is unknown, but I image that the presentation will probably be different. The Vendel / Vesten split had been completely reworked, yes. The Castillians don't have magic that I recall. The Eisen do, and rather appropriately themed, in my opinion. Although, I got a late 18th century Frankensteinian vibe from it rather than Renissance. Dracheneisen is still around, and sourced from Eisen, as it was before. It is not put forth as the special, Eisen-centric cool thing that it was before, however.

That said, some parts have been strongly re-imagined, like the Vesten culture. I could tell that there was a fair bit of work in trying to have the Vikings evolve into the Dutch while still having some Vikings to play if people wanted. And, trying to do it in a more elegant way than before.

I don't think that Fuego or Zerstorung are even mentioned.

Anyway, I'm new to the whole thing and I'm reading it all at once. My perspective is different, I'm sure.

Quote from: Baron Opal;902951Anyway, I'm new to the whole thing and I'm reading it all at once. My perspective is different, I'm sure.

I wouldn't mind more of your perspective, especially on how the rules feel. I'm wondering if they will really get less cumbersome and GM-burdening with practice.

A question for those currently trying the 2nd edition: What is Ussura's new swordsman school like? What's its name and theme?
One of the things that bugged me about 1st edition was that Ussura never really got what I felt was a legit swordsman school (their country splatbook was pretty bad).

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;903986A question for those currently trying the 2nd edition: What is Ussura's new swordsman school like? What's its name and theme?
One of the things that bugged me about 1st edition was that Ussura never really got what I felt was a legit swordsman school (their country splatbook was pretty bad).

It's called Mireli and it uses a large fencing sword (usually a cutlass or saber, even a hatchet), either individually or one in each hand. It was originally created by traveling circus performers. You can create a whirling effect for either an additional parry or bash maneuver.

Tom

Thank you.

Another question: I know there are practically no rules for equipment or weapons, but surely there must be some distinction for firearms. How do they work now?

Yes. Firearms basically do a Dramatic Wound on top of 1 wound per raise invested. The hero can use raises to avoid the other wounds, but not the dramatic wound. Firearms require 5 raises (actions) to reload.

There's nothing about range or powder charges, no blunderbuss v musket v pistol. If you shoot someone, they are going to get hurt. And yes, that makes Blackbeard types who carry around a brace of six pistols particularly dangerous. That is, until the duelist gets to them and cuts them to ribbons. Or players start getting creative with Opportunities. So it's really VILLAINS who are loaded up with pistols that are deadly, simply because the can take a lot of wounds.

Tom

Another question:

Are the new sorceries also heritage based? Is there something to stop a full-blooded Montaigne Porte sorcerer from picking up Sanderis?

Yes, you have to be the right heritage.

You can have an upbringing different from your bloodline, but that costs the rest of your points, effectively.

I think anyone can learn Hexenwerk if they're stubborn enough.

Well, Sanderis might be an exception. I'm not sure. I would be pretty expensive in "story points" or whatever experience points are called. You certainly couldn't start with it, but that and Hexenwerk might be the two that you could obtain.

I'm sorry Baron, your response seems contradictory, and I'm not sure what you mean.

In 1st edition 7th Sea you had to have the right genetic heritage to learn the sorceries. No amount of training or stubbornness could allow you to use them otherwise. Is that definitely NOT the case for Hexen and Sanderis?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;904324I'm sorry Baron, your response seems contradictory, and I'm not sure what you mean.

Then clearly the deplorable state of education in the Colonies has failed to produce a single gentleman worthy of the title, as my tale could not be clearer than if it had been penned by the mighty Ovid himself.  Indeed, were I to simplify it any further for your edification, I run the risk of insulting the intelligence of the more lettered members of our company.  Now, as I was saying... (http://www.magnumopuspress.com/?page_id=8)


Sorry, couldn't help myself

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;904324In 1st edition 7th Sea you had to have the right genetic heritage to learn the sorceries. No amount of training or stubbornness could allow you to use them otherwise. Is that definitely NOT the case for Hexen and Sanderis?

Porte and Sorte are explicitly inherited through blood, the rest are basically all learnt from supernatural beings.

I don't see anything saying you can only have one Sorcery style. Indeed, I don't actually see anything that limits you to taking Backgrounds from only one Region, so it may be possible to start with two Sorcery backgrounds.

Quote from: jadrax;904332Porte and Sorte are explicitly inherited through blood, the rest are basically all learnt from supernatural beings.

Welp, that just knocked my interest down even further. I know the hereditary sorceries were not to everyone's liking, but I liked how it tied all magic together at one mysterious origin point (the ancient Bargain in Numa), I enjoyed the X-Men style drama they produced and it was a neat little way to make nationality and familial heritage matter. Now of course one could argue that books after the 1st Player's Guide and GM's Guide started to drop heavier and heavier hints that Pyeryem and Glamour and Laerdom came from different bargains, but I considered that a thematic error and it still left room for conspiracy theories about the true origin of hereditary sorcery.

I suppose I could also rule, as in any game, that MY world of Theah still has hereditary sorcery, but that still leaves me feeling I don't like where Wick is going with all this.

Quote from: jadrax;904332I don't see anything saying you can only have one Sorcery style. Indeed, I don't actually see anything that limits you to taking Backgrounds from only one Region, so it may be possible to start with two Sorcery backgrounds.

That was true in 1st edition. You could buy half-blooded sorcery to have limited abilities in two different sorceries. It was still explicitly tied to your parentage, not study or recent bargains.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;904346Welp, that just knocked my interest down even further. I know the hereditary sorceries were not to everyone's liking, but I liked how it tied all magic together at one mysterious origin point (the ancient Bargain in Numa), I enjoyed the X-Men style drama they produced and it was a neat little way to make nationality and familial heritage matter. Now of course one could argue that books after the 1st Player's Guide and GM's Guide started to drop heavier and heavier hints that Pyeryem and Glamour and Laerdom came from different bargains, but I considered that a thematic error and it still left room for conspiracy theories about the true origin of hereditary sorcery.

I suppose I could also rule, as in any game, that MY world of Theah still has hereditary sorcery, but that still leaves me feeling I don't like where Wick is going with all this.



That was true in 1st edition. You could buy half-blooded sorcery to have limited abilities in two different sorceries. It was still explicitly tied to your parentage, not study or recent bargains.

John's response on the matter of having multiple Sorcery types/heritages: "you can only have one sorcery evar."

I hope that helps.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;904351John's response on the matter of having multiple Sorcery types/heritages: "you can only have one sorcery evar."

I hope that helps.

That didn't seem terribly clear on reading the text, though I haven't had much chance to read it in detail.

JG

All of the sorceries are tied to Nation-specific backgrounds. So, as Baron Opal pointed out, unless you specifically buy the foreign born Advantage (and maybe not even then, I'd have to check), a Montaigne character cannot begin the game with Sanderis or Hexenwerk or Glamour or...pretty much anything besides Porte.  They've blurred the line of "only nobles have sorcery." This certainly isn't the case for Ussura or the Commonwealth, but Its suggested by the flavor text for Montaigne and Vodacce. Only difference is that now you don't have to buy two expensive Advantages to get sorcery, just one Background.

Now, could a foreign born character get Sanderis or Mother's Touch? Even Hexenwerk? Maybe. It would be dependent on the GM and would have to have a story tied to it. For example, for a Die Krieuzritter hero to track down a Dracheneisen item takes a 10-point story. That's roughly twice the advancement length of the most expensive increase (a 5- point Advantage). Assuming you play weekly and accomplish one story step every other game session, that's 20 weeks or 5 months of continuous play. And that's for something that IS supported by the flavor text. So don't go getting the idea that, "oh sure, we'll just roll into the Commonwealth and.set up shop until we all get Sanderis." It doesn't work that way.

Another thing. While you can use stories to swap out Quirks, you cannot use them to gain new backgrounds. Sorceries are tied to backgrounds, not Advantages. So there really isn't a way to gain sorcery once play begins without some serious GM negotiation.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;904324I'm sorry Baron, your response seems contradictory, and I'm not sure what you mean.

In 1st edition 7th Sea you had to have the right genetic heritage to learn the sorceries. No amount of training or stubbornness could allow you to use them otherwise. Is that definitely NOT the case for Hexen and Sanderis?

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;904351John's response on the matter of having multiple Sorcery types/heritages: "you can only have one sorcery evar."

Quote from: James Gillen;904367That didn't seem terribly clear on reading the text, though I haven't had much chance to read it in detail.

Sorry about that, I haven't read the document exhaustively yet either.

To be clearer, I think that Porte, Sorte, and Glamour are specifically bloodline related. Sanderis and not-Pyreym are from entities, and Hexenwerk is a specific body of lore. I am certain that you cannot start with more than one. If you are Foreign Born, you have the cultural background of one nation and are able to have the sorcery from another. What I wanted to say but didn't communicate is that while some sorceries are not strictly bloodline related in the flavor text, they are for gaming purposes blood line magics. If you are not from Eisen, you are not learning Hexenwerk without one very specific exception.


Addendum: Also, Fuego, Laerdom, and Zerstorung are not mentioned. I think Vesten "rune magic" of some sort is mentioned, but not gone into.

I can only say that I am guessing the rules must have changed a lot from the version my GM is using.

Quote from: jadrax;904444I can only say that I am guessing the rules must have changed a lot from the version my GM is using.

That's the Princess Bride effect, lol :)

By the way, the PDF is out on DriveThruRPG as of today!

http://drivethrurpg.com/product/185462/7th-Sea-Core-Rulebook

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;904467By the way, the PDF is out on DriveThruRPG as of today!

http://drivethrurpg.com/product/185462/7th-Sea-Core-Rulebook

Ah shit, I'm so hesitant here... should I buy it or not? I need some hardcore no punches pulled reviews, and I'm not finding any.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;904537Ah shit, I'm so hesitant here... should I buy it or not? I need some hardcore no punches pulled reviews, and I'm not finding any.

Tell you what.  I'm going to give it a spin with my old college gaming crew on Friday night.  I'll be happy to report my results afterwards if you can wait that long.  I'll warn you that I love 7th Sea (1st edition) with the passion of a thousand suns, but my reading of 2nd edition puts it a bit outside of my comfort zone.  So I'm hopefully optimistic.

Tom

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;904537Ah shit, I'm so hesitant here... should I buy it or not? I need some hardcore no punches pulled reviews, and I'm not finding any.

I doubt this'll be super helpful, but I'm enjoying the book. But, y'know, I have literally no connection to the old game. That said, it's a damn entertaining read.

Quote from: Blusponge;904542Tell you what.  I'm going to give it a spin with my old college gaming crew on Friday night.  I'll be happy to report my results afterwards if you can wait that long.  I'll warn you that I love 7th Sea (1st edition) with the passion of a thousand suns, but my reading of 2nd edition puts it a bit outside of my comfort zone.  So I'm hopefully optimistic.

Tom

I'm eager to see your findings.

I'm still looking for fresh book-in-hand reviews of the new version and this... this petty thing is what I found:

https://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/new-7th-sea-core-book-lots-to-be-thrilled-about-but-still-comes-up-short-long/

It's the rawest sort of identity politics. An incredibly lengthy (for what it is) and detailed whine about how the new book's art is very diverse but still not diverse enough, and still too sexy to boot. There's just no pleasing these people. Everything must be approved by the Office of Patronizing Quotas and Tokenism I guess. Does she even understand how weak this makes her sound? How she's hurting her cause?

The next time somebody involved in gaming asks me why I don't apply the label 'feminist' to myself anymore, I'll point at that review.

Too sexy? I can't access wordpress at the moment, so I'll have to wonder about that and how a depiction of mostly, but not all European characters in a European setting is not diverse enough.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905034https://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/new-7th-sea-core-book-lots-to-be-thrilled-about-but-still-comes-up-short-long/

Just as I would do with any large game book, I went through and did counts of the gender distribution of figures in 7th Sea core book art. I won't clutter this review with lots of pie charts, but all of the results that I reference in this post can be found in this Infogr.am here (https://infogr.am/00535656-2f22-491b-a870-79a82b80e321), if you're curious for specific figures.

That tells you pretty much everything you need to know about her.  She checks all of her large game books for gender ratios and makes pie charts.  That's obsession.

Quote from: yosemitemike;905105JThat tells you pretty much everything you need to know about her.  She checks all of her large game books for gender ratios and makes pie charts.  That's obsession.

Maybe she just likes pie...

Quote from: Bren;905134Maybe she just likes pie...

Might I suggest a bakery for her then?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905034I'm still looking for fresh book-in-hand reviews of the new version and this... this petty thing is what I found:

https://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/new-7th-sea-core-book-lots-to-be-thrilled-about-but-still-comes-up-short-long/

It's the rawest sort of identity politics. An incredibly lengthy (for what it is) and detailed whine about how the new book's art is very diverse but still not diverse enough, and still too sexy to boot. There's just no pleasing these people. Everything must be approved by the Office of Patronizing Quotas and Tokenism I guess. Does she even understand how weak this makes her sound? How she's hurting her cause?

The next time somebody involved in gaming asks me why I don't apply the label 'feminist' to myself anymore, I'll point at that review.

"Go Make Me A Sandwich: How not to sell games to women"
More like, how not to sell feminism to non-feminists.

And people look at me funny when I say there is indeed politics in gaming.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905148And people look at me funny when I say there is indeed politics in gaming.

RPG politics are so vicious because the stakes are so low.

Quote from: Bren;905157RPG politics are so vicious because the stakes are so low.

It's not just RPGs, it's everywhere, it's everything.  From pay wages to video games to dressing a certain way to table top gaming, it's in everything.  I can't go a freakin' day without something being shoved into my face about it.

Let's hope that Wick man's up and tells these idiots to go somewhere else to peddle their crap, his game is for having fun, not a political statement.

Wow.  I'm not gonna tell someone else how to spend their spare time.  But if that's a thing you do with large game books, I think you might be doing it wrong.

But hey, there's next time, right?

It's amazing how much time she managed to spend and how much she managed to write without telling me a single damn thing of the slightest value or significance about the game.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905148And people look at me funny when I say there is indeed politics in gaming.

Socialists are often at RPG game tables.

Ok, after numerous google searches over the past few days I have to wonder: Is it just me, or is this game getting very little buzz online for what is supposed to be the most successful RPG kickstarter thus far?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905192Ok, after numerous google searches over the past few days I have to wonder: Is it just me, or is this game getting very little buzz online for what is supposed to be the most successful RPG kickstarter thus far?

In G+ hangouts I've been in with backers of the game, they have all mentioned they were expecting pirates to be a focus of the game. They all quickly talked about other Kickstartered RPGs they supported. None of them plan to run a game of the new 7th Sea. It's just another collection piece for them.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905192Ok, after numerous google searches over the past few days I have to wonder: Is it just me, or is this game getting very little buzz online for what is supposed to be the most successful RPG kickstarter thus far?

I think a lot of the conversation is in the actual Kickstarter.

There is very little conversation on most forums, but that may just be that forums themselves are pretty unrepresentative of the hobby. There is no arguing with the fact that a fuck ton of people have bought into this game and put up the cash to fund it.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905194It's just another collection piece for them.

This is the general tenor of the discussion I've had with my meatspace friends who were huge fans of 1st edition.  They bought it, but few of them have actually read the new edition and none of them seem interested in actually playing it.

Like a lot of RPGs, it seems like the idea of running it is more attractive than actually running it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905163It's not just RPGs, it's everywhere, it's everything.  From pay wages to video games to dressing a certain way to table top gaming, it's in everything.  I can't go a freakin' day without something being shoved into my face about it.

You could spend less time on forums. Seriously. I could play games all week long and never hear about any of that. Internet RPG forums are the only place I ever hear about this stuff.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905192Ok, after numerous google searches over the past few days I have to wonder: Is it just me, or is this game getting very little buzz online for what is supposed to be the most successful RPG kickstarter thus far?

I'm thiiiiinking that the majority of the online-only audience for this game might actually have backed the Kickstarter. S'over 11,000 people, every single one of which got the PDF book included as part of their purchase. More than enough people to make DTRPG think that it's a Copper seller, since they only count transactions wherein money is exchanged on their website :P Thus is the buzz contained to the kickstarter comments and the very few threads that were already going.

I imagine things will pick up when it's properly available in stores. Also GenCon.

Quote from: daniel_ream;905212Like a lot of RPGs, it seems like the idea of running it is more attractive than actually running it.

After a brief look at the quickstart document not even the idea of running it is attractive anymore.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905192Ok, after numerous google searches over the past few days I have to wonder: Is it just me, or is this game getting very little buzz online for what is supposed to be the most successful RPG kickstarter thus far?

Well to be fair, the PDF of the core book just went out last week. There are games popping up. Geek and Sundry just ran a new article (mostly filler but there you go). There's plenty of talk on the kickstarter forums, on the 7th Sea 2e forums, and on the Facebook group.

Is it 5e levels of conversation? No, but we are talking about it.

Tom

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;904580

Quote from: Blusponge;904542Tell you what.  I'm going to give it a spin with my old college gaming crew on Friday night.  I'll be happy to report my results afterwards if you can wait that long.  I'll warn you that I love 7th Sea (1st edition) with the passion of a thousand suns, but my reading of 2nd edition puts it a bit outside of my comfort zone.  So I'm hopefully optimistic.

Tom

I'm eager to see your findings.

Ok, so last night I got together with three of my old grad school 7th Sea players and one of their friends to try out the new edition.  I had a lot of driving time the previous two days, so I had plenty of scribbled notes that I quickly cobbled together into something vaguely resembling an adventure.  Because a lot of people have stressed that it's hard to come up with Consequences and Opportunities on the fly, I made sure I had plenty of "pre-fab" consequences for each of the "scenes" I had in mind.  Essentially, the adventure involved the players marooned on an uncharted island.  After struggling with the local terrain and wild life (savage red apes!), they discover that the island holds a Syrneth ruin and a very notorious pirate and his crew have already arrived and are investigating the place.  (Kheired-Din, for those of you familiar with the setting).  We created characters, which took about an hour with people fumbling through the PDF on laptops, tablets and phones, and got in 3 solid hours of play besides.  In that time, the players explored about 2/3rds of the island, encountered a few secrets (a syrneth machine at the bottom of a lagoon, the journal of a shipwrecked man who may still be alive on the island), fought a lot of apes, and discovered the bay where the pirates are encamped.

I'm going to post a lengthy report on my blog next week, but here are some bullet points:

• The game does a really good job of making the heroes feel like BIG DAMN HEROES.  Even though they took their share of lumps (most of them finished with at least 2 dramatic wounds), they felt very capable.
• The duelist player commented on how surprisingly deep and strategic the dueling maneuvers can be once you really start using them in play.
• Hero points are easy to get once the players get rolling in character.  A good GM is going to need some tricks to sop them up.
• I played it pretty easy with the Danger Pool, but when you start jacking up the total needed for a Raise it really wipes the smile off everyone's face.
• Action sequences are like butter.  In fact, I'd put the new 7th Sea combat up there with B/X D&D in terms of simplicity and flexibility.  Everyone had fun and felt free to spend raises and points doing things other than "I attack".  It helps that with brutes, the GM doesn't need to roll anything.  It did take a few passes to get everyone to go in order of actions and not just try to do everything on their first turn.
• A small dry erase board is going to be of HUGE help to the GM.  Perhaps moreso than in any other game I've played.
• Oh hiccup we encountered was in grades of success of all things.  Most games support certain grades of success depending on your roll.  But with 7th Sea, unless its a Risk, you don't have to roll.  So how do you tell if a player does something faster, more efficiently?  There were a few times when everyone fell back into old habits and made rolls to count raises just to measure how well they accomplished something. (Which seemed to work well enough.)
• The only time consequences are tough is when you have players who are ancillary to the real action.  Then you have to come up with a special set of consequences just for that player and keep them on track while taking care of the rest of the group.
• There was some table talk about how abusable the Death Spiral is.  After some reflection, this is easily managed by judicious use of scenes.  Just because an action scene ends, doesn't necessary mean a scene is over.  If that doesn't work, brutes with guns will do the trick.
• Opportunities is going to require some "unlearning" for some players.  Mine only started to grasp what you could do with them by the end of the session.

All that being said, the game really flies once it gets going.  It doesn't require quite as much change in GM tactics as I thought it might.  Most of it played out very similar to more traditional games.  I really just got out of the way and let the players go.  Everyone had a great time and were eager to do it again.  I suspect after a few game sessions the mechanics will be second nature to most players, which will be nice.  We are going to try and get together again and finish the adventure before the summer is over.

To be fair, I expected to like the game.  What I worried about was that some of the mechanics were going to feel forced, or that the whole consequences/opportunities scheme was going to result in a lot of talk and no action.  That turned out not to be the case.  I will say having my lists sketched out ahead of time was a big help.  I kept most of my risks to 2-3 consequences, and that generally soaked up ALL of the raises outside of combat.  I do think the mechanics are going to go through some growing pains now that they are in the wild, but I didn't come across a single issue that couldn't be solved by simple variations of the core mechanic (like holding your breath underwater).

If the thing that's keeping you from trying the game out is some idea that it is a heavy narrative game with oodles of player agency, it certainly didn't feel that way to us.  There were plenty of ways for the players to interact with a scene, either through raises or hero points, but I never felt like the adventure was hijacked.  Granted, I tried for a simple sandbox approach to the island and it was a controlled space.

Anyway, that should be enough for you to chew on for right now.  If you want a more detailed account, you'll have to wait for next week.  :D

Tom

Oh, BTW, statblocks are crazy simple, even for complicated opponents.  Check this out:

Red Apes (Brute Squad)

• Strength 8; 2 squads plus 1 per hero.
• Powerful: Spend a Danger Point to double the number of wounds dealt from a successful attack.
  

The apes use crude weapons: clubs, spears, and hatchets, but are strong and capable of rending with their bare hands.  The appear to have a certain crude intellect.  Their skin is gun-metal gray and their fur is a fiery orange in color.

That's it.

Tom

Quote from: daniel_ream;905212This is the general tenor of the discussion I've had with my meatspace friends who were huge fans of 1st edition.  They bought it, but few of them have actually read the new edition and none of them seem interested in actually playing it.

Like a lot of RPGs, it seems like the idea of running it is more attractive than actually running it.

That's funny.  Among my circles I'm seeing the opposite.  I'm the only one who bought it, but EVERYONE wants to play it.

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;905312Anyway, that should be enough for you to chew on for right now.  If you want a more detailed account, you'll have to wait for next week.  :D
Tom

Thank you very much.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905373Thank you very much.

You're welcome.  I hope it helped you make up your mind.

Quote from: Blusponge;905312We created characters, which took about an hour with people fumbling through the PDF on laptops, tablets and phones, and got in 3 solid hours of play besides. In that time, the players explored about 2/3rds of the island, encountered a few secrets (a syrneth machine at the bottom of a lagoon, the journal of a shipwrecked man who may still be alive on the island), fought a lot of apes, and discovered the bay where the pirates are encamped.

You all accomplished a lot in a short amount of time. I'm envious of your group's pace.

QuoteBecause a lot of people have stressed that it's hard to come up with Consequences and Opportunities on the fly, I made sure I had plenty of "pre-fab" consequences for each of the "scenes" I had in mind...

...What I worried about was that some of the mechanics were going to feel forced, or that the whole consequences/opportunities scheme was going to result in a lot of talk and no action. That turned out not to be the case. I will say having my lists sketched out ahead of time was a big help.
 

I think I have a similar issue/concern in Honor+Intrigue. What are some examples of consequences that you planned out ahead of time? What worked well and what worked less well?

Quote(Kheired-Din, for those of you familiar with the setting).

I'm more familiar with Khayr ad-Din (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa). ;)

Quote•   Oh hiccup we encountered was in grades of success of all things. Most games support certain grades of success depending on your roll. But with 7th Sea, unless its a Risk, you don't have to roll. So how do you tell if a player does something faster, more efficiently? There were a few times when everyone fell back into old habits and made rolls to count raises just to measure how well they accomplished something. (Which seemed to work well enough.)

I don't know what a "Risk" means in 7th Sea, but unless there is some risk (in the usual sense) it doesn't seem like it matters whether or not they do something faster or more efficiently. Could you just assume they do whatever it is they attempt faster and more efficiently than mundane people do just because the PCs are "BIG DAMN HEROES"?

Or did the players crave some notion of who amongst themselves did stuff faster or more efficiently than whom?


Thanks Tom, I'll be watching for your more detailed post.

Quote from: Bren;905391You all accomplished a lot in a short amount of time. I’m envious of your group's pace.

It wasn't like we were trying that hard.  I had hoped to finish the whole adventure.  Oh well...

QuoteI think I have a similar issue/concern in Honor+Intrigue. What are some examples of consequences that you planned out ahead of time? What worked well and what worked less well?

Here is an example from the opening scene, an action scene at night where the heroes' ship is being pounded by a fierce storm that is threatening to drive it into the rocky shoals of an uncharted island.

Potential Consequences:
•   Being washed overboard by the crashing waves.
•   Driving wind and rain does 4 wound each round (group consequence)
•   The ship takes 3 hits each round (both through wind, lightning, and taking on water below the hull). (group consequence)

Timed Consequence:
•   On Raise 2 of the Second Round, the ship is beached, either against the rocks or on a sand bar.

Opportunities:
•   Spying a passage through the rocks.

The less tangental stuff worked best.  "Spend a raise to avoid being washed overboard.  Spend raises to mitigate damage."  The stuff that worked less well was more vague.  "Spend a raise to avoid stepping in a hole and hurting your ankle."

QuoteI don't know what a “Risk” means in 7th Sea, but unless there is some risk (in the usual sense) it doesn’t seem like it matters whether or not they do something faster or more efficiently. Could you just assume they do whatever it is they attempt faster and more efficiently than mundane people do just because the PCs are “BIG DAMN HEROES”?

You could.  But that's kind of my point.  Its such an old habit at this point that the players quickly reverted to it.  Personally, I think there could be some risks involved in such ventures ("Your tools break. You miss a crucial flaw.") but its going to take some practice for those things to really shake out.

A "Risk" is pretty much any action where there is a significant consequence of failure attached.  Running down a flight of stairs isn't really a risk unless they are on fire or you are being shot at (or both!).  So in 7th Sea, you shouldn't be rolling for anything pedestrian.  Only when there are hard choices to make (do I finish repairing the rudder quickly and risk a design flaw leaving us stranded in the open ocean, or do I take my time and do this right knowing that the volcano above us could erupt at any minute?).  7th Sea front loads these things now, where as in most games you can gauge the consequences by the roll result along.  (Ouch!  Sorry Bob, you only rolled two successes…)

QuoteOr did the players crave some notion of who amongst themselves did stuff faster or more efficiently than whom?

That too.

This looks a lot how Fate does things...

Quote from: Blusponge;905383You're welcome.  I hope it helped you make up your mind.

Well... I'm still mulling it over.

I've come to realize over the whole discussion of 2nd ed that the sorceries are really important to me. I hate D&D's Swiss-army-knife spellcaster and 7th Sea theoretically strikes the right balance for me: distinct magical heritages that are flexible within a limited range of parameters*. Porte (teleportation), Pyeryem (animal shapeshifting and talking), El Fuego Interior (fire control) and Sorte (manipulating fate and behavior) were close to ideal for me except for the occasional bad math or vague ability (Sorte was especially bad in this regard). Glamour (grab bag legend powers) and Laerdom (grab bag rune powers) lacked focus, did too many things for my tastes and often stepped on the niche protection of the other sorceries.

Now looking at 2nd ed it sounds like genetic heritage and a common origin for sorcery are out, Glamour may have gotten some needed restrictions (perhaps too many in fact), Laerdom was blown off for a later product, El Fuego may have been nixed, and the Sarmatian sorcery looks like it may be too flexible and do too much, repeating the old problem Glamour and Laerdom had. Overall I remain dubious on the sorcery front. If I could get past that personal block I'd probably buy it.

Hexenwerk for Eisen actually sounds pretty good in theory. There's something kinda Blue Magic (from Final Fantasy) about it that I like. Again, I hope it doesn't step on the toes of other sorceries or that Alchemy whatever he gave Castille.

By the way, I've been perusing your blog and finding it quite useful.

*Hey, like The Last Airbender!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905429This looks a lot how Fate does things...

It looks that way to me too.

jg

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905429This looks a lot how Fate does things...

Quote from: James Gillen;905463It looks that way to me too.

How so?  I've never played or really read FATE beyond a cursory glance.  My understanding those is that, with FATE consequences replace "wounds" or some scheme like that.

I know that Apocalypse World and Blades in the Dark include a "Success with Consequences" among the different degrees of success, but that's different than what 7th Sea does.

So fill me in, because it would be great to find resources that helped build consequences for different scenes.  Not like it's hard, but variety is the spice of life.

Tom

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905448I've come to realize over the whole discussion of 2nd ed that the sorceries are really important to me. I hate D&D's Swiss-army-knife spellcaster and 7th Sea theoretically strikes the right balance for me: distinct magical heritages that are flexible within a limited range of parameters*. Porte (teleportation), Pyeryem (animal shapeshifting and talking), El Fuego Interior (fire control) and Sorte (manipulating fate and behavior) were close to ideal for me except for the occasional bad math or vague ability (Sorte was especially bad in this regard). Glamour (grab bag legend powers) and Laerdom (grab bag rune powers) lacked focus, did too many things for my tastes and often stepped on the niche protection of the other sorceries.

Now looking at 2nd ed it sounds like genetic heritage and a common origin for sorcery are out, Glamour may have gotten some needed restrictions (perhaps too many in fact), Laerdom was blown off for a later product, El Fuego may have been nixed, and the Sarmatian sorcery looks like it may be too flexible and do too much, repeating the old problem Glamour and Laerdom had. Overall I remain dubious on the sorcery front. If I could get past that personal block I'd probably buy it.

Hmm…first of all, all the genetic heritage aspects of sorcery are still there.  By tying them into national backgrounds, you HAVE to be Vodacce to be a Fate Witch, or Montaigne to be a Porte Mage.  I…think we may have covered this before.  While theoretically anyone can gain Sanderis, only people from the Commonwealth can start down that path.  Sounds to me like you might be in need of some example powers, so…

Glamour
Let's say the player chooses to become the incarnation of Ceolmund, the Knight Protector.  His legend is that as he stood his ground, taking every blow
for his friends and yelling for them to stay back, he delivered a mortal blow to his foe…then collapsed dead on the spot.  So the player gets to choose one Major Glamour based on their Resolve trait, and two Minor Glamours based on their Finesse (these are different for each Incarnation).  Alternatively, the player can choose a Luck Glamour to replace either one.  Each Glamour begins at Rank 1.  So in the end, the character's powers might look like this (I'm going to keep these abbreviated, but enough to convey the point):

Major: Endless Vigil (Resolve)
Choose a patch of ground no more than ten feet in diameter. Until a sunrise and a sunset for every Rank you have in this Glamour have passed, and as long as you do not leave your chosen ground, you cannot die, be crippled, or rendered Helpless.

Minor: Vanish (Finesse)
Anyone looking for you is unable to locate you for one hour for every Rank you have in Vanish. Any attempts to track you, to locate you via supernatural means, or to learn your location from others, automatically fail.

Minor: Greater Luck (Luck)
Activate this Glamour to add your Rank in this Glamour to the value of any die.

Now lets look at Sanderis.

Characters with Sanderis start out with 2 "deals".  This gives the character 4 minor favors they can perform at relatively no cost.  You can also invoke a minor favor that is not part of your deal, but this costs you something (usually, you have to go do something shady for the entity you've bargained with).  MAJOR favors are special asides to the deal.  To get a major favor, you have to promise to do something especially untasteful for the entity (break up a marriage, ruin a successful merchant, convince family to betray one another).  Each deal has a theme (Darkness, Fire, Cold…) and the favors associated with it follow that theme.  

So let's say you have a player who loves Frozen and really wants to play Elsa with the passion of a thousand suns.  She takes Sanderis and chooses a Cold deal (of course). Here are a couple of minor favors:

• Cause a character or object the sorcerer touches to be frozen solid, encased in a thin layer of ice. While encased, the character or object cannot be harmed or destroyed directly.
• Cause still or slowly flowing water to freeze over solid enough to walk upon in an area of approximately 100 square feet.
• Create a hand-held object made of solid ice, such as a sword. The object functions as a normal item of its type for one Scene, then it melts harmlessly away.

A Major Favor looks like this:

• Plunge a region into sudden and violent winter, causing plant life to die from the extreme cold snap, lakes and streams to freeze over, and torrential snowfall in an area approximately half a mile in every direction of its center point.

QuoteHexenwerk for Eisen actually sounds pretty good in theory. There's something kinda Blue Magic (from Final Fantasy) about it that I like. Again, I hope it doesn't step on the toes of other sorceries or that Alchemy whatever he gave Castille.

Heh.  I don't think that will be an issue right now.  Hexenwerk is pretty fleshed out and "complete" in terms of the world fiction.  Alchemy, right now, exists only as an advantage with three formulas (Explosion, Buff, and Slip), though you are encouraged to create your own effects at your GM's discretion.

QuoteBy the way, I've been perusing your blog and finding it quite useful.

Thanks!

Quote from: Blusponge;905497How so?  I've never played or really read FATE beyond a cursory glance.  My understanding those is that, with FATE consequences replace "wounds" or some scheme like that.

I know that Apocalypse World and Blades in the Dark include a "Success with Consequences" among the different degrees of success, but that's different than what 7th Sea does.

So fill me in, because it would be great to find resources that helped build consequences for different scenes.  Not like it's hard, but variety is the spice of life.

Tom

First up, not disparaging either system.  It's just the way the 'dramatic wounds' is described in your posts sound very much like the 'consequences' of Fate.  In both cases the player gets to do decide what happens, as opposed to having the DM adjudicate it.

Again, it's not a bad thing, just how it feels like to me.

I could, of course, be wrong.

Bah. All this talk about how it sounds like fate makes me like it even less.  Thank you: I am perfectly capable of deciding if a player (character, whatever) suffers a consequence, and what that consequence would be, without the rule book telling me to write them all up ahead of time... or whatever that damn hippy bullshit you guys are describing works like.  I've been improving critical failures for dice rolls my entire gaming career, I don't need a damn game to take that power from me and stick it into a framework, tie it ruthlessly to the rest of hte system, so I can then ignore it in favor of using my own (frankly: Fucking Awesome) GMing skills.

Get off mah damn lawn!

Quote from: Spike;905595Bah. All this talk about how it sounds like fate makes me like it even less.  Thank you: I am perfectly capable of deciding if a player (character, whatever) suffers a consequence, and what that consequence would be, without the rule book telling me to write them all up ahead of time... or whatever that damn hippy bullshit you guys are describing works like.

I didn't get the impression that the rule book said make up consequences ahead of time. I got the impression that Bluesponge wrote some things down as part of his session prep. Some folks like to prepare things before hand.

Quote from: Spike;905595Bah. All this talk about how it sounds like fate makes me like it even less.  Thank you: I am perfectly capable of deciding if a player (character, whatever) suffers a consequence, and what that consequence would be, without the rule book telling me to write them all up ahead of time... or whatever that damn hippy bullshit you guys are describing works like.

I didn't get the impression that the rule book said make up consequences ahead of time. I got the impression that Bluesponge wrote some things down as part of his session prep. Some folks like to prepare things before hand. It's called old school ya punk and some of us like doing that instead of this newfangled artsy, fartsy just floating along improvisatin' whatever shit sounds fun in the moment like a deranged escapee from the local comedy club.

Now get off my damn lawn!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905546First up, not disparaging either system.  It's just the way the 'dramatic wounds' is described in your posts sound very much like the 'consequences' of Fate.  In both cases the player gets to do decide what happens, as opposed to having the DM adjudicate it.

Again, it's not a bad thing, just how it feels like to me.

I could, of course, be wrong.

That's not correct.  The Player's don't get to choose the consequence of a dramatic wound.  There are very specific penalties and bonuses for each level.  The manipulation he's talking about is probably his players playing around with differing wound levels trying to balance the penalties with the bonuses.  The only real Fate analogy is that you can take a certain number of flesh wounds (stress) before taking a dramatic wound (consequence) and can take a set number of dramatic wounds before it becomes possible to be murdered.

Also is it just me or is Wick's description of the roles on a ship very whimsical?  It's like he's confused the Master with Master and Commander mixed with the Master (ie owner).  He also manages to spend a whole quarter of a page talking about the Bosun and doesn't once mention rigging.  I also wonder that he thinks master gunners are masters of the "algebra of aiming the guns."  I guess in Theah the gunners lay each shot?  The Master Gunner of a two-decker would have to run a freaking marathon just to fight one side.  Yes I'm quibbling because I'm in the heart of yet another re-read of Aubrey/Maturin.

FATE blows ass. Plain and simple.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;905546First up, not disparaging either system.  It's just the way the 'dramatic wounds' is described in your posts sound very much like the 'consequences' of Fate.  In both cases the player gets to do decide what happens, as opposed to having the DM adjudicate it.

No, I wasn't taking it that way.  I make no bones that the new edition of 7th Sea is a touch outside my comfort zone as a GM.  So just as I've done for every RPG I've ever played, if I can borrow from a different source to make my life easier, I'm going to do it.  Dramatic Wounds aren't "consequences" in the same way 7th Sea treats consequences.  But that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a helpful resource.

Quote from: Spike;905595Bah. All this talk about how it sounds like fate makes me like it even less.  Thank you: I am perfectly capable of deciding if a player (character, whatever) suffers a consequence, and what that consequence would be, without the rule book telling me to write them all up ahead of time... or whatever that damn hippy bullshit you guys are describing works like.  I've been improving critical failures for dice rolls my entire gaming career, I don't need a damn game to take that power from me and stick it into a framework, tie it ruthlessly to the rest of hte system, so I can then ignore it in favor of using my own (frankly: Fucking Awesome) GMing skills.

HA!  You and me both!  I've been improvising critical failures for as long as I can remember, too.  But consequences in 7th Sea aren't critical failures.  They are choices the player makes up front that are part of a risk.  Do I take the shiny and suffer a wound, or not.  Doing it in reverse doesn't feel quite as natural.  And for the record, I've never played FATE.  And from what I know of it, 7th Sea isn't any more similar to FATE than World of Darkness.  Though it and Morphieus' Conan have some similar features.

Quote from: Bren;905599I didn't get the impression that the rule book said make up consequences ahead of time. I got the impression that Bluesponge wrote some things down as part of his session prep. Some folks like to prepare things before hand.

Right.  The game really doesn't suggest one way or the other.  When a player attempts a risk, the GM presents him with any consequences to the risk up front.  The player then rolls and uses any successes to buy off the consequences.  Sometimes you're going to improvise them on the spot.  Sometimes it's nice to have some options written down.  It's a crutch I'm using while I get the hang of everything else.

Quote from: KingCheops;905608That's not correct.  The Player's don't get to choose the consequence of a dramatic wound.

Exactly.

As for the whimsy of the ship roles, I dunno.  They made sense to me.  And I'm pretty sure the Master of the Tops works for the Bosun and is described in that description. But hey, any of this stuff is open for some interpretation.

OK, fair enough.  It's just the way it was described, Sponge.  Carry on, I'm curious about this.

Another question: This system looks like it puts a lot more pressure on the GM, perhaps too much. How do those of you who are looking at the core book feel about this?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905686Another question: This system looks like it puts a lot more pressure on the GM, perhaps too much. How do those of you who are looking at the core book feel about this?

It seems like a difficult task, but not impossible.
As with a lot of other things, you study the genre first, such as the classic swashbuckler/pirate movies, to get the flavor of the thing.
My best friend ran a long-running game of TORG, where the Pulp setting of the Nile Empire had a world law called The Law of Drama.  Basically, major action scenes had to run like an Indiana Jones movie.  My friend's method for conveying this effect was what he called "obstacle piling."  As soon as the players think they're out of the frying pan, you put them in the fire.  Bad rolls would never be instantly lethal, but they would create further complications you'd have to run through.  
7th Sea in this iteration runs a bit like that, except that the GM has to present consequences in advance.  The book presents a good example how this works: You're in a burning building and you need to get from one end of the room to another.  Consequences of failure are 2 Wounds.  There is also an Opportunity (you recognize an important document on the table).  Simply running across the room is 1 Raise.  Avoiding being burned is 1 Raise per Wound (up to 2) and scoring the document (the Opportunity) requires another raise.  Thus the dice pool you use requires you to get 4 Raises in total to both get through the room unharmed and get the document, and getting less Raises basically requires you (as PC) to determine your priorities.

JG

I envy you guys. And I really mean that - it's not that I'm thinking to myself "HA! HA! LOOK AT ALL THOSE PLEBEIANS WHO ENJOY THIS SILLY STUFF!"

See, you already discuss deeper aspects of the mechanics and argue about stuff that looks quite interesting, while I'm stuck somewhere on pages #20-25 and I can't force myself to read any further. Why? Well...

The greatest difference between Therah and Europe? Diversity! Gender equality! Not magic, not difference in religions, history and even landmass. It's diversity and gender equality. Precious.

GM is once again addressed as "she", even if - I'm quite sure about that - the number of female GMs is quite low, FAR lower than female players and it produces a glitch in my brain each time I see it. Forced inclusivity, much?

I didn't know 7th Sea's setting so I approached it with fresh mind, but I don't like what I'm seeing. First, there's Avalon... Christ almighty, weren't there any other way to introduce the land of faeries or whatever elves inhabits these parts? Speaking of what. Graal? Wait, what? Graal as in "the Grail"? So Jesus lived here? And was crucified too? By whom and why? The crucifixion is a result of long chain of events involving ancient empires, Jewish tradition... It's confusing.

But ok, let's read a bit further. Who are people inhabiting these parts... I see fantasy equivalents of Spaniards, Brits, Germans... Stuck on a different landmass. Why? What for? Wouldn't it be easier to simply use same approach as Warhammer or Dark Albion and simply leave nations where they originally belong?

Ok, I don't get this setting.

...

No, thanks. I don't get this crap. I'd rather play alternative-Earth (as presented by Pundit's Albion), or fantasy influenced by Earth (A Song of Fire & Ice, Warhammer)

Yet I understand this game will be highly popular - and I envy you all who can see past these transgressions and enjoy playing it. Oh well...

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905686Another question: This system looks like it puts a lot more pressure on the GM, perhaps too much. How do those of you who are looking at the core book feel about this?

It does and it doesn't.  In most RPGs with grades of success, the GM reads the dice and interprets the consequences from there.  You're bowstring breaks.  You slip and now hang precariously from the rockface.  You are knocked prone and slide backwards against the stone wall, your chest heaving from the impact.  7th Sea is laser focused on giving the player and GM the tools to weave an awesome story.  (Not in a railroady, staged story way, but in a THAT WAS AWESOME WHEN YOU... way.  In doing so, it front loads he consequences and gives the players the choice of what they want to suffer, or give them the choice of suffering a consequence in exchange for finding something cool (an opportunity) in the environment.

James' example is dead on.  But just for fun, let's compare how it would work versus a more traditional game system.  I'm going to use Talislanta because it's old school AND has a Partial success grade.

The Heroes are attempting to infiltrate the palace of the evil Countess undetected.  They are scaling the palace walls at night.  In a standard game, the players would roll and rattle off their level of success:

• Critical Success: You scale the wall like a monkey.  By the time your companions have scaled the wall 2 rounds later, you've already disabled the guards and are waiting impatiently.
• Success: You move X feet up the wall.
• Partial Success: You move X feet up the wall before your feet slip; no you are hanging precariously and will fall unless someone helps you this round.
• Failure: You struggle to gain a foothold on the wall and barely move from your starting point.  Now you are hanging precariously and will fall unless someone helps you this round.
• Critical Failure: You fall for X damage.

7th Sea this on its head.
The GM: "Ok, so you're trying to climb the wall undetected.  That's a Finesse+Athletics roll, but you could also roll Finesse+Hide if you want.  The consequences are..."

• The ancient stone crumbles under your weight, causing you to slip momentarily and alerting the guards above. (1 raise to offset)
• The rocks are sharp and jagged, causing 2 wounds as you scale the wall. (2 raises to offset completely)

"But there is an Opportunity!"

• You find the perfect series of protruding stones that allows you to scale the wall at twice the normal rate.

The player rolls the dice and get's three raises.  He has to spend 1 raise to climb the wall (his intent).  But now he has three choices with his other raises:

• The slip and fall consequence seems like a no brainer (it doesn't cause you to fail, but it would be a set back.  
• Scaling the wall at twice the normal rate is a great opportunity.
• But the player looks over his character sheet and realizes that if he takes two wounds, he'll suffer his second dramatic wounds, giving villains an extra 2 dice to roll against him.

So now he needs to make a choice.  Is it more important for him to get to the top fast and quiet, knowing that it will give the villain an advantage against him, or does he soak the wounds and take the wall slow and easy?

These aren't terribly hard to improvise.  In fact, most of them are pretty obvious based on the situation.  It's just that the GM has to put it on the table front and center instead of holding back until after the roll.

Tom

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905782Ok, I don't get this setting.

No, thanks. I don't get this crap. I'd rather play alternative-Earth (as presented by Pundit's Albion), or fantasy influenced by Earth (A Song of Fire & Ice, Warhammer)

Yet I understand this game will be highly popular - and I envy you all who can see past these transgressions and enjoy playing it. Oh well...

Well there you go.  I mean, 7th Sea is 75% setting.  So if you can't buy into it, there are plenty of other swashbuckling RPGs with varying degrees of fantasy for you to choose from.  I would suggest that regardless of text, the world is yours to do with as you please.  7th Sea promises a certain play experience, one I believe it delivers on.  But that experience would be easy to port to a more real-world setting as well.  

I will say the difference between 7th Sea and a setting like the Queen's Cavaliers (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/caoimhe/the-queens-cavaliers-rpg) (which, if you want to talk about SJW rpgs, here you go) is that all the plausible tension hasn't been written out of Theah.  There is still political and religious strife, haves and have-nots, and men and women ready to stick the pointy end of a sword in you just because it suits their purposes TODAY.  Theah is not a utopia.  It's not dogs and cats living together in perfect harmony except when the bad man touches them.  So say what you will about gender equality and diversity.  Those are cosmetic things that enable play rather than restrict it.  You can dial it up to 10 or down to 1 and it barely changes the rest of the setting at all.  And frankly, if seeing the "GM" referred to as "she" sends you running for statistical models and demographics, that's your own bugbear to deal with.

But hey, this sounds like a great moment for me to trot out my story of how I STOPPED CARING AND LEARNED TO LOVE DIVERSITY IN RPGS.

So I've been running a rpg program at my public library for a LOOOONG time.  The first year we started, I was using Savage Worlds and running the 50 Fathoms plot point.  I had made all pre-generated characters.  One of them was a fiery Spanish swordswoman.  She was just one of about a dozen characters I put together because the concept sounded cool (think Catherine Zeta-Jones from Zorro II, but more willful and spiteful).  So a month or so later, this little Latina girl picks the character to play.  She's probably 12; maybe 13.  I'm giving her the boiler plate description of the character and rattle off, "she's Spanish…" and the girl interjects, "like me!"  Now, part of my curmudgeonly nature was inclined to say, "no, she's European."  But the larger part of me realized that she was relating personally with this character.  As in "Spanish swordswoman is a badass = Latinas are baddass = *I* get to be the badass!"  And that changed my whole perspective on this diversity in roleplaying business.  Because I WANT kids to look at an RPG book and imagine themselves in those situations, and I don't want them to imagine themselves as european male knights in shining armor.  I want them to imagine them as themselves, whatever race, gender, sex, whatever.  And I (middle-classed, college educated white male) will be the first to admit that I do not understand the formula to make that happen.  But I am smart enough to know that if I see a picture of two women kissing in the crows nest of a ship, that picture is not there for me.  It's there so someone else sees it and goes "holy shit, *I* get to be the badass!"  And for me to complain about that or take that away from someone else is kinda selfish.

Now that doesn't mean I have to LIKE every game that puts it out there like that (see the Queen's Cavaliers above, or even Blue Rose – what the hell do you do with a game when all the tension has been boiled out of the setting?!).  And just because that element is there doesn't mean I have to paint the walls with it ("I never realized there were so many Africans in 16th Century London.").  But if it means a kid somewhere in this world can pick up one of these books and see something in it that sparks his or her imagination in such a way that he or she HAS TO PLAY THIS GAME NOW!, well that's a win-win for ALL of us who play these games.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Tom

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905782But ok, let's read a bit further. Who are people inhabiting these parts... I see fantasy equivalents of Spaniards, Brits, Germans... Stuck on a different landmass. Why? What for? Wouldn't it be easier to simply use same approach as Warhammer or Dark Albion and simply leave nations where they originally belong?

Yes 7th Sea uses a not-earth, fantasy landmass...just like Warhammer Fantasy does (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammerfb/images/d/d6/Map_of_the_Warhammer_World.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110513164512). :rolleyes:


I am one of the last people who’d berate someone for preferring historical fiction for their setting over fantasy, but come on…no one actually thinks that the Warhammer Fantasy map is anything other than a fantasy faux earth like Hyperborea or Middle Earth, do they?

It doesn't look anymore like earth than does Middle Earth and Tolkien (whatever his flaws as a demographer) didn't give us French Hobbits, German Dalesmen, and Italian Gondorians sitting in place waiting for the continents to finish shifting so we could easily recognize France, Germany, and Italy?

Quote from: Blusponge;905812The Heroes are attempting to infiltrate the palace of the evil Countess undetected.  They are scaling the palace walls at night.  In a standard game, the players would roll and rattle off their level of success:


7th Sea this on its head.
The GM: "Ok, so you're trying to climb the wall undetected.  That's a Finesse+Athletics roll, but you could also roll Finesse+Hide if you want.  The consequences are…"

• The ancient stone crumbles under your weight, causing you to slip momentarily and alerting the guards above. (1 raise to offset)
• The rocks are sharp and jagged, causing 2 wounds as you scale the wall. (2 raises to offset completely)

"But there is an Opportunity!"

• You find the perfect series of protruding stones that allows you to scale the wall at twice the normal rate.

And taking the opportunity costs 1 raise, right?

Now let me see if I followed this. So assuming the player wants/needs to climb the wall, she has two choices: Fast and Quiet or Safe and A Little Noisy.

Fast and Quiet
Climb wall [1 raise], + don’t slip and fall, [1 raise], +opportunity: fast climb [1 raise]. No raises remain so he takes damage [2 wounds].

Safe and A Little Noisy
Climb wall [1 raise], avoid sharp and jagged rocks [2 raises]. No raises remain so “ancient stone crumbles under your weight” [he alerts the guards].

To expand on your example:

• A character with only 1 raise would be stuck with a slow climb and both consequences or not going up the wall because the stones look too crumbly and jagged.
• A character with 4 raises could make the climb [1 raise], avoid alerting the guards [1 raise]m and avoid damage [2 raises]. But he would not be able to take advantage of the opportunity so his climb is quiet, safe, but slow.
• A character with 6 raises is awesome and can climb the wall, really fast, while making no noise, and taking no damage, right?

Quote from: Blusponge;905815But hey, this sounds like a great moment for me to trot out my story of how I STOPPED CARING AND LEARNED TO LOVE DIVERSITY IN RPGS.

So I've been running a rpg program at my public library for a LOOOONG time.  The first year we started, I was using Savage Worlds and running the 50 Fathoms plot point.  I had made all pre-generated characters.  One of them was a fiery Spanish swordswoman.  She was just one of about a dozen characters I put together because the concept sounded cool (think Catherine Zeta-Jones from Zorro II, but more willful and spiteful).  So a month or so later, this little Latina girl picks the character to play.  She's probably 12; maybe 13.  I'm giving her the boiler plate description of the character and rattle off, "she's Spanish…" and the girl interjects, "like me!"  Now, part of my curmudgeonly nature was inclined to say, "no, she's European."  But the larger part of me realized that she was relating personally with this character.  As in "Spanish swordswoman is a badass = Latinas are baddass = *I* get to be the badass!"  And that changed my whole perspective on this diversity in roleplaying business.  Because I WANT kids to look at an RPG book and imagine themselves in those situations, and I don't want them to imagine themselves as european male knights in shining armor.  I want them to imagine them as themselves, whatever race, gender, sex, whatever.  And I (middle-classed, college educated white male) will be the first to admit that I do not understand the formula to make that happen.  But I am smart enough to know that if I see a picture of two women kissing in the crows nest of a ship, that picture is not there for me.  It's there so someone else sees it and goes "holy shit, *I* get to be the badass!"  And for me to complain about that or take that away from someone else is kinda selfish.

Now that doesn't mean I have to LIKE every game that puts it out there like that (see the Queen's Cavaliers above, or even Blue Rose – what the hell do you do with a game when all the tension has been boiled out of the setting?!).  And just because that element is there doesn't mean I have to paint the walls with it ("I never realized there were so many Africans in 16th Century London.").  But if it means a kid somewhere in this world can pick up one of these books and see something in it that sparks his or her imagination in such a way that he or she HAS TO PLAY THIS GAME NOW!, well that's a win-win for ALL of us who play these games.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Tom

That's a great post. It would make a good blog article.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905782I envy you guys. And I really mean that - it's not that I'm thinking to myself "HA! HA! LOOK AT ALL THOSE PLEBEIANS WHO ENJOY THIS SILLY STUFF!"

See, you already discuss deeper aspects of the mechanics and argue about stuff that looks quite interesting, while I'm stuck somewhere on pages #20-25 and I can't force myself to read any further. Why? Well...

The greatest difference between Therah and Europe? Diversity! Gender equality! Not magic, not difference in religions, history and even landmass. It's diversity and gender equality. Precious.

GM is once again addressed as "she", even if - I'm quite sure about that - the number of female GMs is quite low, FAR lower than female players and it produces a glitch in my brain each time I see it. Forced inclusivity, much?

I didn't know 7th Sea's setting so I approached it with fresh mind, but I don't like what I'm seeing. First, there's Avalon... Christ almighty, weren't there any other way to introduce the land of faeries or whatever elves inhabits these parts? Speaking of what. Graal? Wait, what? Graal as in "the Grail"? So Jesus lived here? And was crucified too? By whom and why? The crucifixion is a result of long chain of events involving ancient empires, Jewish tradition... It's confusing.

But ok, let's read a bit further. Who are people inhabiting these parts... I see fantasy equivalents of Spaniards, Brits, Germans... Stuck on a different landmass. Why? What for? Wouldn't it be easier to simply use same approach as Warhammer or Dark Albion and simply leave nations where they originally belong?

Ok, I don't get this setting.

...

No, thanks. I don't get this crap. I'd rather play alternative-Earth (as presented by Pundit's Albion), or fantasy influenced by Earth (A Song of Fire & Ice, Warhammer)

Yet I understand this game will be highly popular - and I envy you all who can see past these transgressions and enjoy playing it. Oh well...

With gamers' propensity for customizing any game to suit their tabletop needs, I'm surprised any kind of setting is an issue. I mean, I ran Pendragon in an imaginary England-France/ for Pete's sake. :D

Quote from: Bren;905816And taking the opportunity costs 1 raise, right?

Yes.

QuoteNow let me see if I followed this. So assuming the player wants/needs to climb the wall, she has two choices: Fast and Quiet or Safe and A Little Noisy.

Fast and Quiet
Climb wall [1 raise], + don’t slip and fall, [1 raise], +opportunity: fast climb [1 raise]. No raises remain so he takes damage [2 wounds].

Safe and A Little Noisy
Climb wall [1 raise], avoid sharp and jagged rocks [2 raises]. No raises remain so “ancient stone crumbles under your weight” [he alerts the guards].

That sounds about right.

QuoteTo expand on your example:

• A character with only 1 raise would be stuck with a slow climb and both consequences or not going up the wall because the stones look too crumbly and jagged.
• A character with 4 raises could make the climb [1 raise], avoid alerting the guards [1 raise]m and avoid damage [2 raises]. But he would not be able to take advantage of the opportunity so his climb is quiet, safe, but slow.
• A character with 6 raises is awesome and can climb the wall, really fast, while making no noise, and taking no damage, right?

Yes. Yes. and Yes.

edit: Well, a character with one raise could still climb the wall, but they would take 2 wounds (jagged rocks) and alert the guards (slip and fall).  

Also, assuming it's a one roll Risk, they could CHOOSE to fail, in which case, they slip, take 2 wounds, alert the guards, and do not make it up the wall, but get a Hero Point for their trouble.  BUT they have to choose to do that before they roll any dice.  It can't be, "I got 1 raise, so I'll fail and take the Hero Point instead."

The only rule is consequences ≠ failure.  So you can't make a consequence of "you fall to your death."  You've spent a raise to do that already.  But consequences can make it harder and opportunities can give you cool stuff.

Now, here's the part that makes this a lot of FUN.  If one of the other players has enough raises, he might be able to turn misfortune into opportunity.  So if one player slips and alerts the guards, player B might take advantage of the opportunity to get up the wall faster and sneak up behind the distracted guards.  It might cost him a raise or 2 depending on his approach (If you attempt to do something that is not covered by your approach, it costs 2 raises instead of 1 to do it.) but that would be a possibility.  In fact, it might be worth it for a player to actively choose to slip and alert the guards to make this happen.  Not all of the players have to take advantage of the opportunity, or suffer the same consequences.  And the consequences serve to build on the tension of the story.

Tom

Quote from: Bren;905818That's a great post. It would make a good blog article.

Hmmmm…I think I'll do that.  I still have a few spots in July that need to be filled.  Hooray for productive spouse/kid-free weekends!

Oh, and in case its unclear or confusing, the GM determines and states what the consequences of any action are.  The players only get to choose which of those they are going to avoid or suffer depending on the number of raises they roll.  At no point do the players get to dictate what the consequences of an action are.  The players do not get to say, "The consequences of climbing the wall for my character might be X, Y, or Z."  And the GM can lay as many consequences in their path as he or she chooses.  2-3 is given as a good benchmark, but a really treacherous Risk might have upwards of 5 consequences.  I just don't want anyone getting the wrong idea and thinking, why wouldn't the players just throw out some really simple consequences that really don't amount to anything, or thinking the players get to usurp the game narrative from the GM when they want to.  7th Sea doesn't work that way.

Now here is where that really stilted probability curve of the dice mechanic comes in handy.  Since you can usually expect the player to roll 1 raise for every two dice in the pool, you have a good idea how many consequences its going to take to make things risky.  If the player has a dice pool of 6, you know you want to throw out 3 consequences if an opportunity is going to mean anything.  But all of the players in a group task (like climbing the wall or running through a burning room) face the same consequences.

Quote from: Blusponge;905815And frankly, if seeing the "GM" referred to as "she" sends you running for statistical models and demographics, that's your own bugbear to deal with.

...and I assure you, I'm not claiming it isn't.

QuoteI STOPPED CARING AND LEARNED TO LOVE DIVERSITY IN RPGS.

That's a nice story. Heartwarming, to say the least. Good job, man!

...and just for the sake of clarity: I have no problem with players'/PCs' skin color, sex, religion, etc, etc, as long as diversity/equality/something isn't forced by the setting or rules. If authors take the time to explain me that I should pay extra attention to the topic, because it's current year or something, then I feel inclined to shave half of my head to the naked skin, dye the rest of my hair green, scream about being triggered (on my .tumblr) and demand for people to sponsor my Patreon project.

...That's... that's proper reaction, right? ;)

Quote from: Bren;905816just like Warhammer Fantasy does

Don't focus on this single thing, Bren. :)

While I can discuss deep aspects of WHFRP's lore, I'm not experienced with 7th Sea enough (obviously) to make proper comparison. So far, it seems to me that the latter borrows certain key elements and aspects from our world and its history. Their choice dictates that it should be better to simply use our world, rather than use such tricks as changing the names of nations and calling it a day.

Don't get me wrong: I realize it's probably a good game and plenty of people will like it. I'm not one of them.

I'm open to play this game if one of my buddies (preferably the one that backed its KS and borrowed me the book) organizes it, but so far it's not my cup of tea.

QuoteThat's... that's proper reaction, right? ;)

Hey, I can't tell you the answer to that, but I can say aside from some somantics, I think we're on the same page. I want the game setting to maximize my possibilities and the rules support me telling the stories I want to tell.

I don't need the author to preach to me why I'm a horrible person because I'm not X, Y, or Z, just as the author isn't a horrible person for doing so. If I'm running a game you wrote, its MY game from that point on and you can butt out, thank you, unless I ask you something. :). And that applies if your name is Gary Gygax, Henry Lopez, or John Wick. And for the record, not a single one of those folks have ever told me I wasn't presenting a setting they created correctly. I wouldn't really know what to say to someone who did.

So, I finally broke down and bought the damn thing. I figured that at the very least I could use the new material in any future remixes I make of the setting, with or without the 2e rules.

Some initial reactions:

- The character advancement system is entirely based around players writing their own multi-step quests, then imposing them on the GM, who has to figure out how to weave all that together with a central narrative while also constantly thinking up roll consequences and other improv the system demands. Just imagine trying to make that work with a group of five PCs or more.  

- Bitterly disappointed in Hexenwerk sorcery. Out of 20 powers, only 4 have any use at all in a campaign that doesn't revolve around undead. Everything else damages, neutralizes, weakens, mitigates, takes control of or otherwise interacts with hostile undead. If you want to play a Hexenwerk sorcerer in a game where hunting undead isn't THE core focus you're shit out of luck aside from the occasional bone the GM might throw you (shades of the ranger's 'favored enemy' from D&D). Add this to the fact that it doesn't really fit with the swashbuckling ethos to begin with and you've got a real dud. Such a waste.

- The new Sanderis sorcery grants a starting character the ability to destroy a city or do "anything" of a similar level in exchange for a growing risk of turning into a villain NPC and a 'favor' (an evil quest that ensures the sorcerer gets to hog the spotlight even more for a while and almost certainly increases his chances of turning into an NPC)... wow. Like, you know how the Deck of Many Things is known for either doing nothing or totally wrecking D&D campaigns? This is a starting character ability that anyone can pick and almost nothing relevant can counter.

- The art is indeed quite pretty.

I think I'm going to regret this purchase.

Sympathies, Shipyard, I absolutely hate it when it happens to me.

I dunno, I kinda like a ruthlessly diverse game book. It inspires me to run it as the worst sort of raciss, sexiss, homophobisss game I can manage.

Which honestly probably isn't very much of any of those three, but rather like writing the great american novel of the century is more fun to imagine than to do.  Like... making my players play the inverse. So the black gay dude has to play a white racist or something, while all the white dudes have to play women of color who are horrifically oppressed, and the girls have to play patriarchs and do all this oppression...


Because hey: its a game, right?

Of course, to do it right, I, as the GM, would have no ability to do anything at all.  Now, how to actually pull it off? Because: Diversity! or Roleplaying! or something.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905868- The character advancement system is entirely based around players writing their own multi-step quests, then imposing them on the GM, who has to figure out how to weave all that together with a central narrative while also constantly thinking up roll consequences and other improv the system demands. Just imagine trying to make that work with a group of five PCs or more.  

You're killing me, Shipyard.  You just took one of my favorite parts of the game and painted it as a big, fat wart.  I have a blog post coming up on this one, but I think there is a lot you can do with this.

Quote- Bitterly disappointed in Hexenwerk sorcery. Out of 20 powers, only 4 have any use at all in a campaign that doesn't revolve around undead. Everything else damages, neutralizes, weakens, mitigates, takes control of or otherwise interacts with hostile undead. If you want to play a Hexenwerk sorcerer in a game where hunting undead isn't THE core focus you're shit out of luck aside from the occasional bone the GM might throw you (shades of the ranger's 'favored enemy' from D&D). Add this to the fact that it doesn't really fit with the swashbuckling ethos to begin with and you've got a real dud. Such a waste.

I really don't want to go for snark here but...how is necromancy revolving around the undead a surprise.  (To be fair, a lot of folks have talked about houseruling Hexenwerk to apply to all monsters, which seems reasonable to me.)

Quote- The new Sanderis sorcery grants a starting character the ability to destroy a city or do "anything" of a similar level in exchange for a growing risk of turning into a villain NPC and a 'favor' (an evil quest that ensures the sorcerer gets to hog the spotlight even more for a while and almost certainly increases his chances of turning into an NPC)... wow. Like, you know how the Deck of Many Things is known for either doing nothing or totally wrecking D&D campaigns? This is a starting character ability that anyone can pick and almost nothing relevant can counter.

Whoa there, Tex.  The *starting* character abilities are the minor favors.  Sure you can ask for a Major favor, but as you've pointed out, those aren't to be taken lightly.  But seeing as the GM sets the parameters of the deal, I fail to see how its so game breaking?  Especially since corruption is likely to be involved.

QuoteI think I'm going to regret this purchase.

...sorry?  I dunno, dude.  I'd suggest giving it a game or two before setting it aside in disappointment.  But then, I've been in your shoes too.  So...

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905868So, I finally broke down and bought the damn thing. I figured that at the very least I could use the new material in any future remixes I make of the setting, with or without the 2e rules.

Some initial reactions:

- The character advancement system is entirely based around players writing their own multi-step quests, then imposing them on the GM, who has to figure out how to weave all that together with a central narrative while also constantly thinking up roll consequences and other improv the system demands. Just imagine trying to make that work with a group of five PCs or more.  

- Bitterly disappointed in Hexenwerk sorcery. Out of 20 powers, only 4 have any use at all in a campaign that doesn't revolve around undead. Everything else damages, neutralizes, weakens, mitigates, takes control of or otherwise interacts with hostile undead. If you want to play a Hexenwerk sorcerer in a game where hunting undead isn't THE core focus you're shit out of luck aside from the occasional bone the GM might throw you (shades of the ranger's 'favored enemy' from D&D). Add this to the fact that it doesn't really fit with the swashbuckling ethos to begin with and you've got a real dud. Such a waste.

- The new Sanderis sorcery grants a starting character the ability to destroy a city or do "anything" of a similar level in exchange for a growing risk of turning into a villain NPC and a 'favor' (an evil quest that ensures the sorcerer gets to hog the spotlight even more for a while and almost certainly increases his chances of turning into an NPC)... wow. Like, you know how the Deck of Many Things is known for either doing nothing or totally wrecking D&D campaigns? This is a starting character ability that anyone can pick and almost nothing relevant can counter.

- The art is indeed quite pretty.

I think I'm going to regret this purchase.

Yeah, 7th Sea sorcery was always very specialized, but some forms are better than others.  Porte is very specialized, but more useful than Hexenwerk.  And then there's the fact that some forms are just better (or better playtested) than others.  Sanderis is open-ended in a way that most of the other forms are not.

JG

Wow. The more I have read about this KS, the Conan RPG KS, and the Savage Rifts KS, the more grateful I am to have dodged all three of them. The money can be tossed, but who needs this much disappointment?

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905782The greatest difference between Therah and Europe? Diversity! Gender equality! Not magic, not difference in religions, history and even landmass. It's diversity and gender equality. Precious.

I'm going Devil's Advocate here.

Wick is selling to an audience looking for Pirates of the Caribbean, not a history sim. Also, he's a darling of the storygame crowd so he's instantly scoring points with core customers. I can't completely argue with an author pandering to fill his pockets.  

But beyond ignoring race and gender, how much does Wick shit SJW juice over his setting?

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905782GM is once again addressed as "she",

LMFAO. That's precious. Hopefully he got his wick dipped for that one.

Again, maybe Wick knows he's gonna score hot sweaty convention nookie by going all She-GM as he travels the country promoting 7th Sea 2e.

Men have done far stranger things for sex or social approval.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905782Ok, I don't get this setting.

Your thoughts on the world map was the #1 complaint I remember among 7e 1e fans. Several GMs I knew just switched out for the real Europe map.

There are several online.
http://theloneamigo.deviantart.com/art/Alternate-Europe-Map-for-Theah-102873293

Quote from: Spinachcat;905924Wick is selling to an audience looking for Pirates of the Caribbean, not a history sim. Also, he's a darling of the storygame crowd so he's instantly scoring points with core customers. I can't completely argue with an author pandering to fill his pockets.  

But beyond ignoring race and gender, how much does Wick shit SJW juice over his setting?

Well, I can't say - I stopped reading only a few pages later. Not because there's diversity/equality, mind you, but because there's what I perceive as confusing setting AND diversity/equality, what translates to "I thought way to much about .tumblr audience, while I should focus my creativity on making the setting the best thing ever, signed: the author". I don't like such an approach and since I value my time and have truckloads of other books/games to read...

Still, that's me and only me. It might be that there are absolutely NO pro "political correctness terrorism" injections later on.

QuoteLMFAO

The biggest problem in this is that as a non-native English speaker I get "syntax error" message each time I see it.

It's like:

- the book: "the GM is free to...(this and that)"
- me: ok, reasonable
- the book: "she might..."
- me: wait, who?
- the book: " the GM..."
- me: ummm... ah, I get it now, the Game Master. Who is a female. It's like... Game Mistress? Ok, everyone, let's welcome the image of latex, high heels, "today's safe word is...", and... Oh snap, where were we?
- the book: "I tried to tell you that GM, who is "she" is free to..."
- me: ...latex...

Every-friggin'-time.

In my defense, if asked about "mistress", Google images respond with pictures and photos like this one:

(http://picture.yatego.com/images/506af787745842.6/ea56d3b80e9d43d394b624ac7334cdee-kqh/mistress-kleid-aus-geklebtem-latex.jpg)

...so I dunno, perhaps it's not that I'm in the minority when I connect "mistress" with sexual themes. You be the judge. ;)

QuoteYour thoughts on the world map was the #1 complaint I remember among 7e 1e fans. Several GMs I knew just switched out for the real Europe map.

So once again, not alone in my complaints. :cool:

I wonder what was the idea behind doing it the way they did.

"Oh, let's twist the coast line a bit, people - who are supposed to spend countless hours playing as Spaniards (who aren't called Spaniards, and therefore it's obvious they are FANTASY Spaniards) - aren't gonna mind"?

Quote from: Blusponge;905900You're killing me, Shipyard.  You just took one of my favorite parts of the game and painted it as a big, fat wart.  I have a blog post coming up on this one, but I think there is a lot you can do with this.

It's just one of those things that screams, "Nice and liberating on paper, an exhausting distraction of a chore when you have to do it for five people session after session after session..."

Picture this: As the GM you have prepped to make your 'jolly time in the salons of not-France trying to corner the master thief' campaign as richly detailed as possible. You have put time and effort into getting key locations, scenes and NPCs right. Then the players turn up with the following 'stories' (more or less)...
... A not-Frenchman who needs to return to not-Germany to hunt down and kill the monster that killed his brother during the war.
... A not-Frenchman who needs to organize and lead a peasant revolt.
... A not-Spaniard who needs to sail off and find the treasure of the far-away cannibal island his father never did.
... A not-Russian who needs to learn a final lesson from his missing master somewhere in the icy wilds of his distant country.
... A not-Pole super wizard who needs to get revenge on the emperor's family.

Good luck delivering on these stories in any timely or satisfying manner. And remember, once a story is complete enough new ones appear in the middle of whatever else you're doing. Also, these stories are the replacement for XP, the most important motivator in any RPG, so the players are going to be quite insistent on getting them done pronto. Quite insistent.

Now you could argue the GM has a duty to restrict the XP 'stories' to what will fit his campaign, but then aren't you defeating some of the purpose of this 'brilliant' mechanic? Then you're just narrowing them down to a limited range of "Plots I was probably going to do as GM anyway". What's the point then?

Quote from: Blusponge;905900I really don't want to go for snark here but…how is necromancy revolving around the undead a surprise.

You would have a point if these were active, flexible powers revolving around the use of undead.
But read what I wrote again, then look in the book and read the Hexenwerk powers one by one. The problem is that 16 out of 20 abilities are mainly REACTIVE.
- This ability helps you deal more damage to undead... that are attacking you.
- This ability instantly kills undead... that are attacking you.
- This ability poisons undead... that are attacking you.
- This ability makes sure a corpse does not come back to life... and attack you.
- This ability heals a wound! But only a wound inflicted by an undead creature... that, of course, was attacking you.
- This ability takes control of undead for a short time... probably to stop them from attacking you and make them attack something else that is attacking you.

Etc. The trouble is unless you are spending sessions actively seeking out zombies and ghosts to react to with these powers, they are dead (heh!) options. You will soon wish you had picked something else whenever the campaign centers around, oh I don't know, masked balls, carriage chases, duels on rooftops, seduction scenes, ship-to-ship combat, intrigue against cardinals... Again, why is there a "battle zombie hordes on a frequent basis" character type in the middle of the swashbuckling Europe game? John Wick apparently removed most of the magic plate armor of Dracheneisen from not-Germany because it was a pandering out-of-genre imposition on his vision of the setting in 1st ed... then replaced it with this!?

Quote from: Blusponge;905900Whoa there, Tex.  The *starting* character abilities are the minor favors.  Sure you can ask for a Major favor, but as you've pointed out, those aren't to be taken lightly.  But seeing as the GM sets the parameters of the deal, I fail to see how its so game breaking?  Especially since corruption is likely to be involved.

Let's be realistic. When a player takes Sanderis, this Polish super magic, four times out of five it will be for the allure of having a nuclear button / Wish spell at his disposal right from the get go. The really nice 'minor' favors (which are often stronger and more flexible than what several other sorceries offer) are just awesome icing on the cake.

Go back up this post and look at the example stories I provided. Notice the not-Polish super wizard who needs to get revenge against the emperor's family? He is going to be sorely tempted to solve this problem (and more importantly get his character advancement) by unleashing an ultra-tornado or invincible fire godzilla on the setting. Or perhaps put the emperor in an inescapable coma that cannot be prevented without even having to look at him. Now remember, he could hit that nuke/wish button at any time, up-ending the world and all those stories you were trying to cater to in the process, then forcing you to deal with a new 'quest' for that player to pay back his wish. At least that one the GM gets to dictate.

So what if there's a small chance of turning into a villain NPC, thereby throwing yet another huge wrench into any attempt to maintain some semblance of a coherent campaign? Lots of players live for that kind of brush with raw power, that kind of risk, that kind of attention. It's an "everyone look at me!" button. What a great gaming story that will make later, forgetting how the campaign fell apart shortly afterward due to GM burn-out.

And again, what does Dr. Manhattan have to do with swashbuckling as most people understand it!?

Quote from: Blusponge;905900…sorry?  I dunno, dude.  I'd suggest giving it a game or two before setting it aside in disappointment.  But then, I've been in your shoes too.  So...

I'm going to read more and think about it, but we're not off to a good start.

By the way, I've seen you writing about this game in more than one venue, and you're often one of its first defenders despite your own skepticism. As you've said, it's "outside of your comfort zone". Do you worry that perhaps you are a bit emotionally invested in this 2nd edition working and that's affecting how you perceive it?

Would not this....

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905868S- The character advancement system is entirely based around players writing their own multi-step quests, then imposing them on the GM, who has to figure out how to weave all that together with a central narrative while also constantly thinking up roll consequences and other improv the system demands. Just imagine trying to make that work with a group of five PCs or more.

...be the intended solution to this...

QuoteIf you want to play a Hexenwerk sorcerer in a game where hunting undead isn't THE core focus you're shit out of luck aside from the occasional bone the GM might throw you (shades of the ranger's 'favored enemy' from D&D).

QuoteAdd this to the fact that it doesn't really fit with the swashbuckling ethos to begin with and you've got a real dud. Such a waste.

I can tell you've never seen Captain Kronos – Vampire Hunter.

Quote... wow. Like, you know how the Deck of Many Things is known for either doing nothing or totally wrecking D&D campaigns?

Huh. I did not know that. Back in the day the Deck of Many Things seemed really random and gonzo, but that fits campaigns like the one run by Zak who plays with porn stars or some of the things Pundit runs. I prefer a lot less of the gonzo in my games, but tastes do differ.

I'm sorry you were disappointed with your purchase. Truly.

Me, I haven't bought it. If I'm going to run a pastiche (and so far I'm not), it seems easy to invent the setting myself. I don't get all the enthusiasm for 7th Sea, but then I don't get the enthusiasm for lots of games people like...yes FATE, World of Darkness, and Warhammer I'm thinking of you. But I'm perfectly happy to steal stuff from 7th Sea that I like. The nice thing about pastiche is that I can back translate it to the real world to use in my preferred swashbuckling setting. And Tom/Blusponge often writes about something I can use in my setting.

Quote- The art is indeed quite pretty.

Yes it is pretty. I've stolen and used several pieces from the old 7th Sea. I'm sure I'll grab some from the new as well.

Quote from: Spinachcat;905924Wick is selling to an audience looking for Pirates of the Caribbean, not a history sim.

I think you nailed the appeal.

QuoteYour thoughts on the world map was the #1 complaint I remember among 7e 1e fans. Several GMs I knew just switched out for the real Europe map.

It always seemed odd to me that in a game called, 7th Sea, the core game map showed only parts of 2 seas.

QuoteThere are several online.
http://theloneamigo.deviantart.com/art/Alternate-Europe-Map-for-Theah-102873293

Yeah, a map like that would be more appealing to me. But then I'd end up wanting to use real mountain ranges, and rivers, and lakes and stuff and now I'm having to do research and be accurate and stuff just like with the  not pastiche historically fictional real world I am running. Pastiche is nice and appeals both to my creativity and my laziness because I could put anything I want and can halfway explain anywhere I want to put it and that is way easier and less time consuming than understanding real geography. Which is why guys like Robert E. Howard did pastiche.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905930Picture this: As the GM you have prepped to make your 'jolly time in the salons of not-France trying to corner the master thief' campaign as richly detailed as possible. You have put time and effort into getting key locations, scenes and NPCs right. Then the players turn up with the following 'stories' (more or less)...
... A not-Frenchman who needs to return to not-Germany to hunt down and kill the monster that killed his brother during the war.
... A not-Frenchman who needs to organize and lead a peasant revolt.
... A not-Spaniard who needs to sail off and find the treasure of the far-away cannibal island his father never did.
... A not-Russian who needs to learn a final lesson from his missing master somewhere in the icy wilds of his distant country.
... A not-Pole super wizard who needs to get revenge on the emperor's family.

I agree.

A GM who does extensive setting prep creating a richly detailed but narrowly focused campaign with specific key locations, scenes and NPCs without talking to his players who then allows or even encourages those players to show up with five independently created narrowly focused campaign ideas, and who then tries to quickly integrate those five foci with his one focus all by himself is asking for headaches.

:confused: So maybe don't try to do both those things in the same campaign?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905930Picture this: As the GM you have prepped to make your 'jolly time in the salons of not-France trying to corner the master thief' campaign as richly detailed as possible. You have put time and effort into getting key locations, scenes and NPCs right. Then the players turn up with the following 'stories' (more or less)…

The key to this is not to let your players come up with these stories in a vacuum.  You sit them all down in a room together and have a Writers' Room style round table.  You (the GM) lays out some parameters (We will be starting in the Montaigne city of Paix, where a notorious master thief everyone once thought dead has returned) and then lead the players through the process of creating their first story.  This way, no one comes to the table with, "how nice of you to make this adventure for us, but my Hero is desperate to get back to Ussura and will stop at nothing to get there).  Encourage players to come up with intertwined stories and stories that related to your GM's story (since the game already rewards that with potentially faster advancement).  Take a page from TV series and repeat this every 10 game sessions or so to keep everyone on the same page.

I love the IDEA of the story step mechanic.  (Hell, I really want to rip it out and put it in my Witch Hunter game yesterday!)  You may be right that it turns into a nightmare for a GM.  If I ran 7th Sea for my library game group, all 12 players, yeah I would probably ditch most of it as unworkable.  But for 5-7 adults who are on the same page in terms of the game, I love that it could work.

QuoteNow you could argue the GM has a duty to restrict the XP 'stories' to what will fit his campaign, but then aren't you defeating some of the purpose of this 'brilliant' mechanic? Then you're just narrowing them down to a limited range of "Plots I was probably going to do as GM anyway". What's the point then?

Which is exactly what I do and nope, I don't feel that way at all.  The GM is running the game and has a story to tell too.  Just because you get a character story doesn't mean you get to be a special snowflake.  And, no.  If someone comes up with a cool idea that everyone likes, you can always suggest that get tabled until the players finish the current storyline (and collect their reward!) before going in a different direction.

Essentially, Stories are what Backgrounds were in 1st edition.  They telegraph to the GM exactly what the players would like to do and give him extra grist to add to the campaign.  The player comes up with his own plot hook.  You don't have to bait him.  But the player has no idea what lies in store between Step 1 and the Ending, which is all very vague when you boil it down.

QuoteThe trouble is unless you are spending sessions actively seeking out zombies and ghosts to react to with these powers, they are dead (heh!) options. You will soon wish you had picked something else whenever the campaign centers around, oh I don't know, masked balls, carriage chases, duels on rooftops, seduction scenes, ship-to-ship combat, intrigue against cardinals... Again, why is there a "battle zombie hordes on a frequent basis" character type in the middle of the swashbuckling Europe game? John Wick apparently removed most of the magic plate armor of Dracheneisen from not-Germany because it was a pandering out-of-genre imposition on his vision of the setting in 1st ed... then replaced it with this!?

Dracheneisen hasn't been removed.  It's now the prevue of the Die Kriezritter.

And I don't disagree with you.  I think Hexenwerk is a lame replacement.  A couple of folks have taken up the task of trying to reinsert it, basically taking 1st ed Eisen and dropping it in 2nd ed.  I'll post some links if you'd like.  I'm very tempted to go that route.  If I was starting a game tomorrow, I probably would.  I would also be the first to tell my players, "I don't imagine us killing zombie hordes in Eisen any time soon, so Hexenwerk may not be a good place to focus your character."  I've done that before with certain orders in my WH game.

And as I mentioned, there has been plenty of talk about houseruling Hexenwerk to affect monsters in general, not just undead, which gives it MUCH more utility.

QuoteSo what if there's a small chance of turning into a villain NPC, thereby throwing yet another huge wrench into any attempt to maintain some semblance of a coherent campaign? Lots of players live for that kind of brush with raw power, that kind of risk, that kind of attention. It's an "everyone look at me!" button. What a great gaming story that will make later, forgetting how the campaign fell apart shortly afterward due to GM burn-out.

Ah, so now the complaint about the Commonwealth being a Mary Sue/Special Snowflake makes a bit more sense.  I mean I really can't tell you that you're wrong about this.  The player could unleash the fire gorilla as a major favor, burn a hole in the capital city and call it a day.  I suspect that isn't going to happen in a lot of games, mainly due to pressure by the other "heroes" ("There has to be another way!"  "Don't go into the light, Carole Ann!") and by the magnitude of the consequences of the act.  But sure, it could happen.  And it can shake things up a bit.  

QuoteBy the way, I've seen you writing about this game in more than one venue, and you're often one of its first defenders despite your own skepticism. As you've said, it's "outside of your comfort zone". Do you worry that perhaps you are a bit emotionally invested in this 2nd edition working and that's affecting how you perceive it?

Hey now, I did preface all of this by saying I LOVE 1st edition 7th Sea, warts and all.  I love the setting.  The rules hit my sweet spot.  The second edition setting is…mostly the same.  The rules are just very different.   I was very skeptical at first, but a lot of the tools in 2nd edition make sense.  I'm not running a long-term game any time soon, but I do want to play.  I also want to see someone cook up a really good 7th Sea 1.5, because that would solve 90% of my issues with this edition.  I love that people are retro-fitting dracheneisen back into the game as Eisen's national sorcery, and tweaking Die Krieuzritter so they don't lack in return.  Am I a bit emotionally invested?  You bet your sweet ass I am.  I won't deny that one bit.  Is it affecting how I perceive it?  Possibly.  But I do try to keep an open mind about it in terms of other people.

Shipyard, you aren't wrong if you don't like it.  If everything about the system, the sorceries, the setting scream, "kill it with fire!" I'm not going to tell you how you are a terrible person.  I'll give you my perception of things where I think we are opposed, but that's it.  If it doesn't click, it doesn't.  And that's all there is to it.

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;905946And I don't disagree with you.  I think Hexenwerk is a lame replacement.  A couple of folks have taken up the task of trying to reinsert it, basically taking 1st ed Eisen and dropping it in 2nd ed.  I'll post some links if you'd like.  I'm very tempted to go that route.  If I was starting a game tomorrow, I probably would.  I would also be the first to tell my players, "I don't imagine us killing zombie hordes in Eisen any time soon, so Hexenwerk may not be a good place to focus your character."  I've done that before with certain orders in my WH game.

And as I mentioned, there has been plenty of talk about houseruling Hexenwerk to affect monsters in general, not just undead, which gives it MUCH more utility.

I don't think Hexenwork is unsalvageable. The abilities that let you talk to corpses, poison someone into a zombie slave, project yourself as a ghost or gain monstrous characteristics are solid. "Death" and "creepy cooking" are themes with lots of potential for powers, so it wouldn't be hard to steal some ideas from other games and put them into Hexenwerk. I'm just baffled that Wick fucked this up.

Quote from: Blusponge;905946Ah, so now the complaint about the Commonwealth being a Mary Sue/Special Snowflake makes a bit more sense.

Well it's more than that. Honestly Wick clearly had a hard-on for the place during the writing process, and I find the write-up (which I know actually have before my eyes) unrealistic. Well, ok, I'm not familiar enough with Polish history to judge I guess, but their government sounds impossible at first blush. Entire villages abandoning their work to trek to some distant parliament and vote their whims? Maybe you understand this history better than I do. I could use some insight.

Quote from: Blusponge;905946I suspect that isn't going to happen in a lot of games, mainly due to pressure by the other "heroes" ("There has to be another way!"  "Don't go into the light, Carole Ann!") and by the magnitude of the consequences of the act.

Speaking of which, what has stopped not-Polish sorcerer dictators from using Sanderis to take over the world? Nothing in the rules or flavor text holds Sanderis villains back.

my blog post on keeping heroes' stories and GM's stories from stumbling over and contradicting each other is now live. I don't promise it will turn anyone into a believer, but it should help address the issue.

https://braceofpistols.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/the-writers-room-7th-sea/

Looks like you are not the only one with a play report. Sign of the Frothing Mug posted (http://frothingmug.blogspot.com/2016/07/play-report-red-robes.html) one yesterday.

Thanks for the additional data guys.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905999Speaking of which, what has stopped not-Polish sorcerer dictators from using Sanderis to take over the world? Nothing in the rules or flavor text holds Sanderis villains back.

The only thing that I've come across, in my hasty read through, is that once you seal the seventh bargain you might not be "you" anymore. The ultimate power is that the deva (?) takes you over, and that's a "secret" of the power.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905999Well it's more than that. Honestly Wick clearly had a hard-on for the place during the writing process, and I find the write-up (which I know actually have before my eyes) unrealistic. Well, ok, I'm not familiar enough with Polish history to judge I guess, but their government sounds impossible at first blush. Entire villages abandoning their work to trek to some distant parliament and vote their whims? Maybe you understand this history better than I do. I could use some insight.

I'll clarify that I haven't actually read anything about the new 7th Sea, and barely remember the old one.

As far as the historical Polish Commonwealth, it had a situation where all the Szlachta, the Polish nobility, had a number of special powers, including voting for the new king, and participating in the governing process through sejmiks and sejms.

The Sejmik was a regional parliament, where in theory any member of the Szlachta from that region could attend. In practice, most sejmiks only drew around 5% of all the local nobility.  The Sejmik would make regional laws and would select representatives to go to the Sejm, the Commonwealth Parliament.

Nobles in the Commonwealth were all equal, in theory at least.  The saying goes that the poorest farmer-noble was exactly alike to the most powerful commander of the armies. There wasn't the standard mixture of baron/earl/duke/etc in the Commonwealth; all Szlachta officially had the same title: Hrabia ("Count").  Even so, very wealthy and powerful nobles would be referred to as 'magnates' and in practice of course had more influence. But every Noble, even the poorest or humblest, had the same special legal privileges. This eventually extended to the 'liberum veto', the right to veto any vote taken in a sejmik or Sejm to which they had a right to attend (this later development is one of the big factors that crippled Poland as a nation and led to its eventual partition).

The Commonwealth was curious in that it had a far larger percentage of nobles than most other European nations, about 10% of the population were Szlachta, compared to 1-3% in most other European countries. But as you can see, this definitely did NOT mean 'entire villages trekking to distant parliaments to vote their whims'. 90% of the population didn't have a right to vote anything, and of the remainder 95% didn't even bother trekking to their local parliament two fields over.

Thanks for the history lesson, Pundit. ::files that away::

The trekking from small villages comes from the Sarmatian Commonwealth background in 7th Sea. Essentially, the dying King is looking for a way to blunt the power of the nobility, so he uses the only power he has that the nobles can't veto: he makes every citizen a noble. This makes the Commonwealth the first democracy in modern Theah. It also really pisses off the old establishment.

Obviously, as with many other places, the history of Theah and Earth diverge quite considerably.

I'm sure that is some form of virtue signalling, coupled with the all too common historical illiteracy all too common of their ilk....  

Quote from: Spike;908544I'm sure that is some form of virtue signalling, coupled with the all too common historical illiteracy all too common of their ilk....  

It's also a bit more feasible than the actual Commonwealth, at least if it does NOT include the liberum veto.  I haven't read enough of my copy to know if it addresses that.

JG

I'm more sniffing at the historical illiteracy of declaring the firstest evah direct democracy in a renissance... resitance... fuckit, 3 musketeer era, poland, rather than some three fucking thousand years earlier.  Or for that matter, making it in a faux switzerland, some four centuries earlier.  Or....

For that matter: why no Theah Swiss? Seriously: Have you seen how those guys dress?  You gotta have balls of selenium core carbon fiber wrapped tungsten steel to dress like that, and they use motherfuckin HALBERDS. Today. Like, seriously: You mess with those swiss mercs in italy in Current Year and you'll get a halberd to the face from a dude dressed like Bozo the Clown's worst nightmare!

Tell me that ain't Swash and Buckle!

Fegh. Poland. Whatevah.

Quote from: Blusponge;908463Thanks for the history lesson, Pundit. ::files that away::

The trekking from small villages comes from the Sarmatian Commonwealth background in 7th Sea. Essentially, the dying King is looking for a way to blunt the power of the nobility, so he uses the only power he has that the nobles can't veto: he makes every citizen a noble. This makes the Commonwealth the first democracy in modern Theah. It also really pisses off the old establishment.

Well, there's no way that would have happened.

Quote from: Spike;908727I'm more sniffing at the historical illiteracy of declaring the firstest evah direct democracy in a renissance... resitance... fuckit, 3 musketeer era, poland, rather than some three fucking thousand years earlier.  Or for that matter, making it in a faux switzerland, some four centuries earlier.  Or....

For that matter: why no Theah Swiss? Seriously: Have you seen how those guys dress?  You gotta have balls of selenium core carbon fiber wrapped tungsten steel to dress like that, and they use motherfuckin HALBERDS. Today. Like, seriously: You mess with those swiss mercs in italy in Current Year and you'll get a halberd to the face from a dude dressed like Bozo the Clown's worst nightmare!

Tell me that ain't Swash and Buckle!

Fegh. Poland. Whatevah.

Well, the Polish Constitution of 1791 was a hugely progressive Constitution by the standards of the time in a European monarchy.  It was pretty much a last-gasp attempt at reform, but came too little, too late to stop Poland's collapse.

Quote from: RPGPundit;909412Well, there's no way that would have happened.

Nope.  But the fey aren't going to show up and give the queen of England a magical chalice, either.  So I won't count it as a mark against the setting.

Quote from: RPGPundit;909413Well, the Polish Constitution of 1791 was a hugely progressive Constitution by the standards of the time in a European monarchy.  It was pretty much a last-gasp attempt at reform, but came too little, too late to stop Poland's collapse.

No doubt. Of course the real problem is that, at least in first edition, Theah has a massively truncated history, basically ignoring anything before Rome... except for Aliens/Gods/Whatever.

Its fucking lazy as shit, and it leads to patently absurd declarations like Not-Poland having the first true democracy in the world.  Sure: Because your world managed to reach the age of sail while only having a single millennia of history en toto, and only counting one continent...

Quote from: Blusponge;909481Nope.  But the fey aren't going to show up and give the queen of England a magical chalice, either.  So I won't count it as a mark against the setting.

Fair enough. But at the same time, there's different kinds of ways to alter history. I think stuff that alters the historical element to match more 21st-century values tends to be more incongruous than stuff that's just blatantly fantastical.

Quote from: RPGPundit;909986I think stuff that alters the historical element to match more 21st-century values tends to be more incongruous than stuff that's just blatantly fantastical.

I genuinely wonder what percentage of the game's fan base would consciously admit one of their main reasons for playing it is because it allows them to play some ersatz historical swashbuckling without having to engage with the icky values of their ancestors.

For the record, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;909994I genuinely wonder what percentage of the game's fan base would consciously admit one of their main reasons for playing it is because it allows them to play some ersatz historical swashbuckling without having to engage with the icky values of their ancestors.

I'll cop to that.  I freely admit that I want movie swashbuckling, not historical accuracy.  I want Oliver Platt mugging as Porthos.  It's not so much political correctness as it is that any historical setting is going to be so alien in its thought processes to we moderns that it's not worth the effort.

Quote from: RPGPundit;909986Fair enough. But at the same time, there's different kinds of ways to alter history. I think stuff that alters the historical element to match more 21st-century values tends to be more incongruous than stuff that's just blatantly fantastical.

I dunno about that. I think the conflict involved is pretty timeless. The king vs an adversarial nobility. The solution serves to give the Samartian Commonwealth it's niche in Theah. Keep in mind that Theah is meant to be a collection of pastiches that hang together. It's not meant to be a perfect characature of 17th century Europe. Avalon, for example, leans on a reskinned King Arthur myth. Ussura is a mix of Peter the Great, Ivan the Terrible, with Baba Yaga as ultimate referee.  Each nation has its thing, not unlike Ravenloft, Mystara/Known World, or the Pathfinder setting. Someone looking for historical accuracy is not going to be happy. Then again, you don't have to become an armchair history professor to pull off a good game (says an armchair history professor).
 

Quote from: daniel_ream;910006I freely admit that I want movie swashbuckling, not historical accuracy.  I want Oliver Platt mugging as Porthos.  It's not so much political correctness as it is that any historical setting is going to be so alien in its thought processes to we moderns that it's not worth the effort.

I don't know about that. But yeah, cinematic swashbuckling rarely taps the dirty underbelly of history save where it serves to add conflict to the plot. And 7th Sea has always been good about that (unlike some more modern utopia seeking swashbuckling games out there).

Tom

Well, there are some situations that you have to gloss over when inserting modern moral values into a Medieval or Age of Sail setting.  Like what does the GM do when the players bring in prisoners from their raid on the bandit/pirate camp, where the guilt is pretty much assured, and the tiny town that posted the bounty doesn't actually have any real prison and have already tried and convicted these felons.  Historically, you either murdered all the bad guys, or had them hung/executed and strewn about as a warning to others.  Which is considered grotesque and barbaric in modern thinking.

Quote from: RPGPundit;909986stuff that alters the historical element to match more 21st-century values tends to be more incongruous than stuff that's just blatantly fantastical.

I'm not sure how the above words fit into this long conversation, but I very much agree as a general principal. I suppose someone could say that fantasy is anachronistic, or that anachronisms are fantastic. But that seems odd because fantasy is deliberate and purposeful invention. Anachronism, especially it's most vile form, presentism (projecting one's current values into other places and times), is generally an unconscious flaw in thinking born from a union of bias about oneself, and ignorance about others. It gives me a rash. It is hardly ever fantastic.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910032Well, there are some situations that you have to gloss over when inserting modern moral values into a Medieval or Age of Sail setting.  Like what does the GM do when the players bring in prisoners from their raid on the bandit/pirate camp, where the guilt is pretty much assured, and the tiny town that posted the bounty doesn't actually have any real prison and have already tried and convicted these felons.  Historically, you either murdered all the bad guys, or had them hung/executed and strewn about as a warning to others.  Which is considered grotesque and barbaric in modern thinking.

It is?  Holy crap my group must be pretty barbaric then.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910032Well, there are some situations that you have to gloss over when inserting modern moral values into a Medieval or Age of Sail setting.  Like what does the GM do when the players bring in prisoners from their raid on the bandit/pirate camp, where the guilt is pretty much assured, and the tiny town that posted the bounty doesn't actually have any real prison and have already tried and convicted these felons.  Historically, you either murdered all the bad guys, or had them hung/executed and strewn about as a warning to others.  Which is considered grotesque and barbaric in modern thinking.

Most of the PCs in my H+I game are down with the notion that bandits – who rob and often murder more or less innocent peasants, merchants, and travelers – should face the noose. So what my players did when they realized that the closest village didn't have (a) an officer of the state, (b) a magistrate to pronounce sentence, or (c) a jail to hold the prisoners in was take their bandit prisoners to Soissons, the nearest town. A town which is part of the Kingdom of France and thus has a governor, a duly appointed magistrate, a jail of some sort, and a gallows. (This knowledge was all readily available to the PCs because they they are French.)

Once they got to Soissons, they realized that the magistrate in Soissons was a cruel alchemist who didn't value human life and had a habit of torturing and/or experimenting on the prisoners he kept in his dungeon (a medieval dungeon, not a D&D dungeon). Thus he probably wouldn't hang the bandits he would toss them into his dungeon and use them for weird alchemical experiments of some kind or his cruel amusements. Face with that realization, two of the PCs had moral qualms about this whole turning over the prisoners bit, so they secretly freed the prisoners and pretended to look the other way while they escaped from Soissons. At least one of the other PCs pretended he didn't know what the first two had done. Because if he did know, he'd have been duty bound to do something, seriously punish the two PCs or even hunt down and recapture the "escaped" bandits.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905930By the way, I've seen you writing about this game in more than one venue, and you're often one of its first defenders despite your own skepticism. As you've said, it's "outside of your comfort zone". Do you worry that perhaps you are a bit emotionally invested in this 2nd edition working and that's affecting how you perceive it?

Ok, Shipyard!  Since you've called me on the mat for being a fanboy, here's my official "here's what I'm iffy about" article on 7th Sea 2nd edition (https://braceofpistols.wordpress.com/2016/07/29/mirror-mirror-the-other-side-of-the-coin/).  I don't think it addresses any of the issues you had, but its not like a don't see a few holes in the ship's hull.

Tom

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;909994I genuinely wonder what percentage of the game's fan base would consciously admit one of their main reasons for playing it is because it allows them to play some ersatz historical swashbuckling without having to engage with the icky values of their ancestors.

For the record, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.

Dude for awhile 7th Sea was my group's favorite RPG (1st ed) exactly for that reason. I don't think any 7th Sea fan would deny that. The Count of Monte Cristo, Scarlett Pimpernel, and 3 musketeers didn't spend inordinate amounts of time being historical misery tours for that matter either.

All that being said, the second edition which finally has a Carribean, is also going to have a slave trade, so it's not like the setting is some Disney family friendly fantasy.

It does let characters engage with the setting while being Heroic and not have to worry about portraying realistic historical sexism and racism.

Quote from: KingCheops;910048It is?  Holy crap my group must be pretty barbaric then.

In terms of modern (and I would also say TV) morality?  Yes.  In terms of appropriate societal sanctions against those that quite frankly deserve it, because it's a game based in a more fantastical, and potentially brutal time period as well as we're all here to have fun and not hurt each other?  Game on.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910491In terms of modern (and I would also say TV) morality?  Yes.  In terms of appropriate societal sanctions against those that quite frankly deserve it, because it's a game based in a more fantastical, and potentially brutal time period as well as we're all here to have fun and not hurt each other?  Game on.

7th Sea does not omit this kind of stuff. Pirates are hanged in the setting, hell first edition even had a supplement dedicated to the French Terror, complete with rampant executions..

I really wonder where the idea that 7th Sea doesn't have these dark aspects came from? They exist,  it's just clearly the realm of Villains. There's less moral ambiguity in 7th Sea, that's the difference.

Quote from: Blusponge;910480I don't think it addresses any of the issues you had, but its not like a don't see a few holes in the ship's hull.

Actually, you discussed my previously stated problems with Hexenwerk, and most of your other points are issues for me as well, so we're on the same page.

Just for further data, the tabletop podcast Under Discussion also examined the second edition alongside the 1st edition in this episode:

https://soundcloud.com/underdiscussion/ud223-7th-sea-part-two

My problem is I just can't get into 2nd eds rules changes. I like most of the setting changes (most, not all. Making Dranchenesien only for monster hunting was dumb. I don't like the changes to Vesten either)

But the system.. I really wanted to like it, but I can't. Neither can my group, just to storygamey for us.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;910499Actually, you discussed my previously stated problems with Hexenwerk, and most of your other points are issues for me as well, so we're on the same page.

Good to know.  For me, dracheneisen is an easy fix.  There are folks on the 7th Sea 2 forums who have done a lot of the hard work already.  It's still gonna be awhile before I run a long-term game, so I have time to see how things develop.

QuoteJust for further data, the tabletop podcast Under Discussion also examined the second edition alongside the 1st edition in this episode:

https://soundcloud.com/underdiscussion/ud223-7th-sea-part-two

COOL!  Thanks for the tip.  Will definitely listen.

Quote from: Orphan81;910502My problem is I just can't get into 2nd eds rules changes. I like most of the setting changes (most, not all. Making Dranchenesien only for monster hunting was dumb. I don't like the changes to Vesten either)

But the system.. I really wanted to like it, but I can't. Neither can my group, just to storygamey for us.

Hmmm…I guess I really haven't played or read enough storygames.  I've never played FATE or any flavor of Apocalypse World.  So when I look at 7th Sea 2, I don't see those comparisons.

What I do see is a different flavor of game than 99% of the RPGs I've played in the past, where its not so much about what you roll and when, but the choices you make and the repercussions of those choices.  That's why i find 7th Sea 2 interesting and also why I say it's outside my comfort zone.  I'm very comfortable at this stage throwing out target numbers and such.  This game forces me – as the GM – to think in a different way.  After 35+ years of regular RPG play, that makes it an interesting challenge.

BTW, for those of you who are choking on the changes, I had an epiphany the other day looking over my old All For One: Regime Diabolique book.  Ubiquity plus some simple house rules could make for a very convincing blend of 1st and 2nd edition 7th Sea.  I need to do more research to see if my ideas break Ubiquity, but it might be the perfect rosetta stone for keeping the best of both games.

Tom

Some players like a clear delineation of power in RPGs, Blu.  The Players take care of their characters, and their actions, while the GM handles the world and the NPCs, and that's it.

My current table is like that.  And I suggested trying out other games, like Marvel Heroic Roleplaying with them.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;910499Just for further data, the tabletop podcast Under Discussion also examined the second edition alongside the 1st edition in this episode:

https://soundcloud.com/underdiscussion/ud223-7th-sea-part-two

QuoteCOOL!  Thanks for the tip.  Will definitely listen.

Ok, I've made it about 2/3rd of the way through.  Hoping to finish it tonight.  But something just feels off about their whole play experience.  Especially the way the describe the GM "setting the scene" and the players "interacting" with it.  When I ran my game, I ran it like any other RPG and it seemed to hold together ok.  They sound like they did something VERY different.  Like maybe the GM just really put it all out there as opposed to running it like you would with any other RPG.  I dunno.  I'm not going to say they did it wrong, but it sounds like they approached play different than I did.  Maybe the last :15 will shed some light on that.

Tom

Quote from: KingCheops;910048It is?  Holy crap my group must be pretty barbaric then.

I think you mean "Historically accurate". ;)

Quote from: Blusponge;910508I'm very comfortable at this stage throwing out target numbers and such.  This game forces me – as the GM – to think in a different way.  After 35+ years of regular RPG play, that makes it an interesting challenge.

I love this. I feel the same way about 2nd edition.

I've decided I'll probably have to run FATE core before I attempt 7th Sea 2nd, if I ever do.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;911216I've decided I'll probably have to run FATE core before I attempt 7th Sea 2nd, if I ever do.

What about playing it?

I'm going to run it a couple times at GenCon. I've played it but not run it so far. A bit nervous, I admit since there are plenty of things about the setting and new rules that I should know better by now.

Anyways, after Gen Con I might consider running a session online for some of the folks interested in trying it out.

Quote from: Orphan81;910502My problem is I just can't get into 2nd eds rules changes. I like most of the setting changes (most, not all. Making Dranchenesien only for monster hunting was dumb. I don't like the changes to Vesten either)

But the system.. I really wanted to like it, but I can't. Neither can my group, just to storygamey for us.

There's a thread in Other Games right now talking about the definition of StoryGame.  Can you describe here, (in as much detail as you can) what mechanics are turning you off, why you think that is, and what specifically do you mean by "StoryGamey".  Pretty sure I know what you mean, and a lot of others do too, but history's shown us that someone will probably be along shortly to deny that claim vociferously, so specifics would be appreciated.

Quote from: CRKrueger;911220There's a thread in Other Games right now talking about the definition of StoryGame.  Can you describe here, (in as much detail as you can) what mechanics are turning you off, why you think that is, and what specifically do you mean by "StoryGamey".  Pretty sure I know what you mean, and a lot of others do too, but history's shown us that someone will probably be along shortly to deny that claim vociferously, so specifics would be appreciated.

Well, like everything in this sort of vein, the definitions can get a little fuzzy, but I will try to articulate as best I can... This is my experience and the experience of the group I run for..

Now every RPG seems to exist on a scale that runs between board game to 'spinnin yarns round the fire'... The further you go toward 'Spinnin Yarns' the more "Storey gamey' your game is...while the closer to board game, well the more "board gamey" your game is...

Now, in a "Traditional" RPG, the GM has complete control of the world, The NPC's and the interpretation of how a character's actions are carried out. The Players only have control of their characters... Adding more narrative control to the players pushes things closer to more story gaming...but this isn't always bad...Sometimes this can fit certain games well.... Adventure allowed PC's to spend "Inspiration" points to scene edit...and the GM always had final say. The bigger the scene edit, the more inspiration points you had to spend.. Other than that, however, the game was a traditional RPG...powers and PC abilities are defined and have a set result in the game when applied.

Now let's talk about Fate for a moment. Fate also allows the PC's to scene edit to a degree... while also making PC abilities very very wibbly wobbly... This is another aspect of Story Games... PC abilities are more vaguely defined, and are more categorized by their "Narrative" power, than mechanical in game aspects... For example... In a game of Fate Dresden Files... A Vampire Character might have a +2 aspect of "In Darkness" representing their vampiric ability to fight better in the dark..

The problem becomes, it only applies for the first round, then ceases to be anything else...Meanwhile in Vampire a PC can have Auspex and just see in the dark when ever they want, from round to round and keep it's benefits... even use them outside of combat...Fate is less about playing a game, and more about telling a story.. The aspects are related to that, and the flow of the game is about that... It's closer to 'spinning yarns'.

Which brings up another aspect of traditional RPG versus Story Game...Win/Lose and "Game" conditions. In the traditional game, the story doesn't matter..The dice dictate what happens. The party can have a tpk and end a long running campaign, right at the good part.. Spinnin yarns is just about telling the most interesting story you can... What a lot of these Story Games do, is push more and more power toward "Telling an interesting story" at the expense of the game aspects...

Most GM's I know, exercise some control over the dice...fudging here and there in the interest of the story...and yet, they do allow players to fail, they do allow characters to fail...for the story to have a bad ending..This leads to far more excitement when the players are doing well...when they begin to "win", and the dice are hot. It's a very different feeling from playing a Story Game where you fail forward...

It also leads to different kinds of thinking for the players... In story games with "aspects" and other such abilities that are narrative...the players stop thinking in terms of their PC and what they can do, and more in terms of how to bend the story and play to their advantage... they stop being "actors" and more become "writers"....I know for many players it's a jarring experience because it brings them out of immersion...

So bringing this all together toward 7th Sea 2nd ed and why my players and I aren't hot about it. You have wibbly wobbly rules, lots of narrative control for the players, fail forward, and all the other aspects of story gaming we don't like. It doesn't matter at all what weapon you use in the game, as all weapons do the same damage. PC's can say they're using pelvic thrusts as their attack and it does the same damage as a great sword.. The use of Raises on both the PC and GM side allow for ridiculous reality warping.. a specific example in the book involving a burning building describes the GM using a raise to create a secret room for the villain to escape in... Now of course a good GM is going to curtail this kinda stuff...but there's nothing stopping a PC from saying "I use my raises to discover a T-Rex hiding in an alley and ride it to safety!" Or from saying all of their attacks are eye lasers...because again, damage is based on raises, not on weapons..

Throw in the fail forward mechanic where the GM needs to constantly come up with consequences all of the time...when in a lot of RPG's just having the character fail at the task should be enough...It leads to ridiculous things like the lock picking example, "1 raise unlocks it, but you'll uh, need 1 extra to not alert the guards and 1 extra not to get a poison needle in the hand!" It leads to needing to throw poison needles and other ridiculous things everywhere because the GM needs to keep coming up with consequences..Hero Dice flow like water as well, and spending them for a fellow PC gives them 3 extra so you have scene edits going all over the place and PC's never really being in tight spots..

Then, when you get through all of these very simple mechanics, you get hit with the Villain rules...Suddenly we take a game that's very rules lite and throw in this detailed mathematical system for the Villain involving how many henchman, lieutenants and holdings they have, and how to spend points for more..It seems really out of place considering everything else..

Oh god.  Was the setting this bad in 1st edition too?  The writing is atrocious, loses focus, and despite saying it's different than Europe is exactly the same as Europe of the period.

I suspect we always just played fantasy Europe.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;911219What about playing it?

I might be up for that. I've never had an opportunity to be a player in 7th Sea or any swashbuckling game. Would this be skype or play by post?

Sameoldji talks about 7th Sea 2nd Edition in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGGEKGBQIFo as far as what's involved. Sounds like it can be played just fine without messing with FATE first at all.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;911536I might be up for that. I've never had an opportunity to be a player in 7th Sea or any swashbuckling game. Would this be skype or play by post?

I'd run it through skype.

My play report for the two sessions I ran at Gen Con:

It went great! Everyone had a good time, so my primary goal was achieved. I had a varying level of experience among players, some being familiar with first, second, and new to 7th Sea, with a good mix in each group. They all took to it rather well, understanding the basics really easily. With the same scenario/adventure set-up, the groups responded to the situation (attempting to get a letter implicating the PCs in a plot against l'Empereur) in very drastically different ways from one group to the other, which kept things interesting for me, since running the same adventure over and over could have gotten boring.

The system played out fluidly, coming up with Consequences on the fly was pretty easy because everything is situational. We got to use Opportunities, Pressure and dealing with Consequences easily. No problem there.
The only issue I encountered was with a group trying to catch the villain as she was escaping. In the system, the person with the most Raises goes first. One of the PCs was actively trying to catch up, while the other 3 PCs were finding ways to hinder the escape of the villain and aid their fellow PC in the pursuit (throwing dishes at her, tugging on the runner rug the villain is standing on, finding the best route for the pursuing PC to take and relaying that info to him).
The Villain had 9 raises, the pursuing PC had 8, the other PCs who were helping had 4, 3 and 2 raises respectively. I don't know if I missed a ruling about working together, but essentially, after the villain spent 8 of her 9 Raises on escaping (I set aside the last Raise for her to use Porté to get out), it would have been the pursuing PC's turn, and he wanted to spend all 8 Raises on keeping up with her. After that the action went to the other PCs actions, helping the pursuing PC or hindering the Villain.
This order of play was weird in that particular moment, so I ended up backtracking and letting the PCs helping spend their actions first, giving the pursuing PC some actions to catch the Villain in the end. It's possible I missed a rule on how PCs work together, if they can pool their raises together or whatnot, but either way, it worked out by making a ruling on the spot.

One group got corruption points too, so that was interesting to see that come up as well.

Everyone had a blast!

So after three punt runs and numerous discussions I've come to the conclusion that...

The game is about informed choices rather than investigation.

Like Dogs in the Vineyard this is a 'fact forward' game where discovery is all but inevitable if not thrown in your face and the possibilities explicitly spelled out. This makes many stories about investigation difficult if not impossible to dramatize. What's important are the decisions you make in light of what you know. So it's not about finding who killed the Count, but bringing them to justice. It's not about finding your lost father, but resolving your differences. It's not about knowing the alchemical formula, but bringing the ingredients together.

The game is about matching wits with the GM.

As a player you should be challenging the GM with your input like you would in Baron Munchhausen. So fail when they expect you to succeed. Create situations which force them to make choices. Accidentally drop those keys in the gutter and trip over a dead rat in the rain. In other words, fuck with them as hard as they're supposed to be fucking with you and see how well they keep up.

And the reason I've come to these conclusions is I entered the mind of John Wick and managed to find my way out (or did I). If there's any failing, it's that the game doesn't clearly explain John's mindset, and you need other books and perhaps an improv class or two to figure it out.

Well that, and the unnecessarily complex dice rolling system which ultimately fails to do what it was designed to.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;902398For the record, I think adding Sarmatia was a good idea, but it sounds like he's excessively in love with the damn place and it's sucking up a lot of creative oxygen. Someone in the playtest has compared it to a "Mary Sue" nation, which makes me worry.

I agree, but don't care, as I'm 50% Polish/Lithuanian

#OurTimeInNow

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;902398On a purely personal note, I'm one of the few 7th Sea GMs who felt that the New World was not necessary because the game made it clear you were supposed to fill the western sea with mysterious islands of adventure for those ships and pirates to go to, and I did.

I fear this game will explicitly spell everything out like the late White Wolf books did too.

Quote from: Bren;905157RPG politics are so vicious because the stakes are so low.

What stakes?

Quote from: Blusponge;905169I'm not gonna tell someone else how to spend their spare time.  But if that's a thing you do with large game books, I think you might be doing it wrong.

There is such thing as badwrongfun when those actions are driven by fear, the need for validation, and neurosis.

Ultimately I'm sympathetic, but can't discount the harm she's causing in the process.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905192Ok, after numerous google searches over the past few days I have to wonder: Is it just me, or is this game getting very little buzz online for what is supposed to be the most successful RPG kickstarter thus far?

I think most people got it simply because the deal was insanely good.

Quote from: James Gillen;905744The book presents a good example how this works: You're in a burning building and you need to get from one end of the room to another.  Consequences of failure are 2 Wounds.  There is also an Opportunity (you recognize an important document on the table).  Simply running across the room is 1 Raise.  Avoiding being burned is 1 Raise per Wound (up to 2) and scoring the document (the Opportunity) requires another raise.  Thus the dice pool you use requires you to get 4 Raises in total to both get through the room unharmed and get the document, and getting less Raises basically requires you (as PC) to determine your priorities.

From what I gather saying you fail doesn't mean you haven't taken action but that you haven't achieved your intent. So what happens if your action is your intent? After all, you can't take fire damage if you never run through that burning room.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905782The greatest difference between Therah and Europe? Diversity! Gender equality! Not magic, not difference in religions, history and even landmass. It's diversity and gender equality. Precious.

I have to agree. And the nations feel far more similar than they did previously, and not in a good way.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905782GM is once again addressed as "she", even if - I'm quite sure about that - the number of female GMs is quite low, FAR lower than female players and it produces a glitch in my brain each time I see it. Forced inclusivity, much?

Probably, but this pronouns issue has reached such epic levels of stupidity that I literally don't care which ones are used to refer to anyone (including myself) anymore. Instead of 31 flavors (some of which are cultural appropriation) America just desperately needs a single gender neutral pronoun at this point.

Quote from: Blusponge;905812So now he needs to make a choice.  Is it more important for him to get to the top fast and quiet, knowing that it will give the villain an advantage against him, or does he soak the wounds and take the wall slow and easy?

But what's informing those choices?

Quote from: Blusponge;905815Because I WANT kids to look at an RPG book and imagine themselves in those situations, and I don't want them to imagine themselves as european male knights in shining armor.

I've never felt the need to play a character which was a facsimile of myself, nor have the representations in games ever been a deterrent to play. In fact the whole point was I got to play someone who wasn't me. Different races, genders, and political dispositions were all open to exploration until recently, and now the simple act of playing them has the potential to lose me 'friends' and make a statement I don't intend.

So I get what you're saying and back your sentiment, but I'm not sure we've made progress as a whole.

Quote from: Blusponge;905823Now, here's the part that makes this a lot of FUN.  If one of the other players has enough raises, he might be able to turn misfortune into opportunity.  So if one player slips and alerts the guards, player B might take advantage of the opportunity to get up the wall faster and sneak up behind the distracted guards.

Where in the book does it say suffering a Consequence creates an Opportunity for other players?

Because it should :)

Quote from: Blusponge;905825Since you can usually expect the player to roll 1 raise for every two dice in the pool, you have a good idea how many consequences its going to take to make things risky.  If the player has a dice pool of 6, you know you want to throw out 3 consequences if an opportunity is going to mean anything.  But all of the players in a group task (like climbing the wall or running through a burning room) face the same consequences.

I suspect most GMs are setting the Consequences based on the skill level of the character taking the Risk, which means the higher that level, the more Consequences that character will face. So high skills ultimately make your character more interesting rather than success more likely (at least outside opposed rolls, which are a whole other can of spaghetti), and that requires a major shift in perspective for most gamers.

But then we get to Sequences involving multiple characters where the GM can't do that. I suspect they'll go for the middle here too, but doing so means working in a group makes things easier for those with higher skills (who will consistently be able to buy off Consequences) while simultaneously making things harder for those with lower skills (who won't).

I wish the game had more to say on this.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905868The character advancement system is entirely based around players writing their own multi-step quests, then imposing them on the GM, who has to figure out how to weave all that together with a central narrative while also constantly thinking up roll consequences and other improv the system demands. Just imagine trying to make that work with a group of five PCs or more.

The problem is the book doesn't really provide any practical methods or techniques to do this.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905868Bitterly disappointed in Hexenwerk sorcery.

Quote from: Blusponge;905900I really don't want to go for snark here but...how is necromancy revolving around the undead a surprise.

It's not the theme but the limitations which are the problem.

On the one hand sorceries like Sanderis rely on the GM to balance. On the other sorceries like Hexenwerk seem to be heavily balanced by the system. I wish the game would make up its mind.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905868The new Sanderis sorcery grants a starting character the ability to destroy a city or do "anything" of a similar level in exchange for a growing risk of turning into a villain NPC and a 'favor' (an evil quest that ensures the sorcerer gets to hog the spotlight even more for a while and almost certainly increases his chances of turning into an NPC).

Quote from: Blusponge;905900But seeing as the GM sets the parameters of the deal, I fail to see how its so game breaking?

The major favors are so much like advancement stories that they should be treated as such and discussed with the whole group before pursued. So I'm not too worried about those. It's the minor favors I find potentially problematic.

Again, this is something I wish the game was more clear on.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905930So what if there's a small chance of turning into a villain NPC, thereby throwing yet another huge wrench into any attempt to maintain some semblance of a coherent campaign? Lots of players live for that kind of brush with raw power, that kind of risk, that kind of attention. It's an "everyone look at me!" button. What a great gaming story that will make later, forgetting how the campaign fell apart shortly afterward due to GM burn-out.

Then that's their story, and how the game is designed to work.

#EverybodyGetsOne

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905999I'm just baffled that Wick fucked this up.

Same here, and I think it's largely due to facing a transition period where he's still getting his bearings.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905999Entire villages abandoning their work to trek to some distant parliament and vote their whims?

I'm less concerned with plausibility than the story potential in either keeping them from voting or making sure they can make it to the polls :)

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905999Speaking of which, what has stopped not-Polish sorcerer dictators from using Sanderis to take over the world? Nothing in the rules or flavor text holds Sanderis villains back.

Good question.

Quote from: RPGPundit;908442As far as the historical Polish Commonwealth, [*snip*]

Thanks for the history lesson.

I also find it funny how much the 'left' seems infatuated with democracy when they see themselves as a minority and many of the most important rights issues (abortion, Interracial marriage, same-sex marriage) were decided not by popular vote but by nine folks wearing black robes interpreting an ancient document. And even when Women's Suffrage was decided by vote, it was the Republicans for and the Democrats against.

#DoomedToRepeatIt

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;909994I genuinely wonder what percentage of the game's fan base would consciously admit one of their main reasons for playing it is because it allows them to play some ersatz historical swashbuckling without having to engage with the icky values of their ancestors.

All of them?

I think that's kinda the point.

Good post Adderlan.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;912160What stakes?

There are two answers to this question.

   (1) Exactly.

(2) If you don't know what the stakes are then you just aren't taking all this seriously enough, which means you are part of the problem...plus privilege and SJWs.

QuoteFrom what I gather saying you fail doesn't mean you haven't taken action but that you haven't achieved your intent. So what happens if your action is your intent? After all, you can't take fire damage if you never run through that burning room.

Remember, you started out inside a burning building. So not running through fire isn't a viable option. Unless you succeed in getting out of the building, you will burn to death. I would think that, how much you succeed by, determines if you get out with or without getting burnt (wounded) in the process.