Quote from: Blusponge;909481Nope.  But the fey aren't going to show up and give the queen of England a magical chalice, either.  So I won't count it as a mark against the setting.

Fair enough. But at the same time, there's different kinds of ways to alter history. I think stuff that alters the historical element to match more 21st-century values tends to be more incongruous than stuff that's just blatantly fantastical.

Quote from: RPGPundit;909986I think stuff that alters the historical element to match more 21st-century values tends to be more incongruous than stuff that's just blatantly fantastical.

I genuinely wonder what percentage of the game's fan base would consciously admit one of their main reasons for playing it is because it allows them to play some ersatz historical swashbuckling without having to engage with the icky values of their ancestors.

For the record, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;909994I genuinely wonder what percentage of the game's fan base would consciously admit one of their main reasons for playing it is because it allows them to play some ersatz historical swashbuckling without having to engage with the icky values of their ancestors.

I'll cop to that.  I freely admit that I want movie swashbuckling, not historical accuracy.  I want Oliver Platt mugging as Porthos.  It's not so much political correctness as it is that any historical setting is going to be so alien in its thought processes to we moderns that it's not worth the effort.

Quote from: RPGPundit;909986Fair enough. But at the same time, there's different kinds of ways to alter history. I think stuff that alters the historical element to match more 21st-century values tends to be more incongruous than stuff that's just blatantly fantastical.

I dunno about that. I think the conflict involved is pretty timeless. The king vs an adversarial nobility. The solution serves to give the Samartian Commonwealth it's niche in Theah. Keep in mind that Theah is meant to be a collection of pastiches that hang together. It's not meant to be a perfect characature of 17th century Europe. Avalon, for example, leans on a reskinned King Arthur myth. Ussura is a mix of Peter the Great, Ivan the Terrible, with Baba Yaga as ultimate referee.  Each nation has its thing, not unlike Ravenloft, Mystara/Known World, or the Pathfinder setting. Someone looking for historical accuracy is not going to be happy. Then again, you don't have to become an armchair history professor to pull off a good game (says an armchair history professor).
 

Quote from: daniel_ream;910006I freely admit that I want movie swashbuckling, not historical accuracy.  I want Oliver Platt mugging as Porthos.  It's not so much political correctness as it is that any historical setting is going to be so alien in its thought processes to we moderns that it's not worth the effort.

I don't know about that. But yeah, cinematic swashbuckling rarely taps the dirty underbelly of history save where it serves to add conflict to the plot. And 7th Sea has always been good about that (unlike some more modern utopia seeking swashbuckling games out there).

Tom

Well, there are some situations that you have to gloss over when inserting modern moral values into a Medieval or Age of Sail setting.  Like what does the GM do when the players bring in prisoners from their raid on the bandit/pirate camp, where the guilt is pretty much assured, and the tiny town that posted the bounty doesn't actually have any real prison and have already tried and convicted these felons.  Historically, you either murdered all the bad guys, or had them hung/executed and strewn about as a warning to others.  Which is considered grotesque and barbaric in modern thinking.

Quote from: RPGPundit;909986stuff that alters the historical element to match more 21st-century values tends to be more incongruous than stuff that's just blatantly fantastical.

I'm not sure how the above words fit into this long conversation, but I very much agree as a general principal. I suppose someone could say that fantasy is anachronistic, or that anachronisms are fantastic. But that seems odd because fantasy is deliberate and purposeful invention. Anachronism, especially it's most vile form, presentism (projecting one's current values into other places and times), is generally an unconscious flaw in thinking born from a union of bias about oneself, and ignorance about others. It gives me a rash. It is hardly ever fantastic.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910032Well, there are some situations that you have to gloss over when inserting modern moral values into a Medieval or Age of Sail setting.  Like what does the GM do when the players bring in prisoners from their raid on the bandit/pirate camp, where the guilt is pretty much assured, and the tiny town that posted the bounty doesn't actually have any real prison and have already tried and convicted these felons.  Historically, you either murdered all the bad guys, or had them hung/executed and strewn about as a warning to others.  Which is considered grotesque and barbaric in modern thinking.

It is?  Holy crap my group must be pretty barbaric then.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910032Well, there are some situations that you have to gloss over when inserting modern moral values into a Medieval or Age of Sail setting.  Like what does the GM do when the players bring in prisoners from their raid on the bandit/pirate camp, where the guilt is pretty much assured, and the tiny town that posted the bounty doesn't actually have any real prison and have already tried and convicted these felons.  Historically, you either murdered all the bad guys, or had them hung/executed and strewn about as a warning to others.  Which is considered grotesque and barbaric in modern thinking.

Most of the PCs in my H+I game are down with the notion that bandits – who rob and often murder more or less innocent peasants, merchants, and travelers – should face the noose. So what my players did when they realized that the closest village didn't have (a) an officer of the state, (b) a magistrate to pronounce sentence, or (c) a jail to hold the prisoners in was take their bandit prisoners to Soissons, the nearest town. A town which is part of the Kingdom of France and thus has a governor, a duly appointed magistrate, a jail of some sort, and a gallows. (This knowledge was all readily available to the PCs because they they are French.)

Once they got to Soissons, they realized that the magistrate in Soissons was a cruel alchemist who didn't value human life and had a habit of torturing and/or experimenting on the prisoners he kept in his dungeon (a medieval dungeon, not a D&D dungeon). Thus he probably wouldn't hang the bandits he would toss them into his dungeon and use them for weird alchemical experiments of some kind or his cruel amusements. Face with that realization, two of the PCs had moral qualms about this whole turning over the prisoners bit, so they secretly freed the prisoners and pretended to look the other way while they escaped from Soissons. At least one of the other PCs pretended he didn't know what the first two had done. Because if he did know, he'd have been duty bound to do something, seriously punish the two PCs or even hunt down and recapture the "escaped" bandits.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;905930By the way, I've seen you writing about this game in more than one venue, and you're often one of its first defenders despite your own skepticism. As you've said, it's "outside of your comfort zone". Do you worry that perhaps you are a bit emotionally invested in this 2nd edition working and that's affecting how you perceive it?

Ok, Shipyard!  Since you've called me on the mat for being a fanboy, here's my official "here's what I'm iffy about" article on 7th Sea 2nd edition.  I don't think it addresses any of the issues you had, but its not like a don't see a few holes in the ship's hull.

Tom

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;909994I genuinely wonder what percentage of the game's fan base would consciously admit one of their main reasons for playing it is because it allows them to play some ersatz historical swashbuckling without having to engage with the icky values of their ancestors.

For the record, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that.

Dude for awhile 7th Sea was my group's favorite RPG (1st ed) exactly for that reason. I don't think any 7th Sea fan would deny that. The Count of Monte Cristo, Scarlett Pimpernel, and 3 musketeers didn't spend inordinate amounts of time being historical misery tours for that matter either.

All that being said, the second edition which finally has a Carribean, is also going to have a slave trade, so it's not like the setting is some Disney family friendly fantasy.

It does let characters engage with the setting while being Heroic and not have to worry about portraying realistic historical sexism and racism.

Quote from: KingCheops;910048It is?  Holy crap my group must be pretty barbaric then.

In terms of modern (and I would also say TV) morality?  Yes.  In terms of appropriate societal sanctions against those that quite frankly deserve it, because it's a game based in a more fantastical, and potentially brutal time period as well as we're all here to have fun and not hurt each other?  Game on.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;910491In terms of modern (and I would also say TV) morality?  Yes.  In terms of appropriate societal sanctions against those that quite frankly deserve it, because it's a game based in a more fantastical, and potentially brutal time period as well as we're all here to have fun and not hurt each other?  Game on.

7th Sea does not omit this kind of stuff. Pirates are hanged in the setting, hell first edition even had a supplement dedicated to the French Terror, complete with rampant executions..

I really wonder where the idea that 7th Sea doesn't have these dark aspects came from? They exist,  it's just clearly the realm of Villains. There's less moral ambiguity in 7th Sea, that's the difference.

Quote from: Blusponge;910480I don't think it addresses any of the issues you had, but its not like a don't see a few holes in the ship's hull.

Actually, you discussed my previously stated problems with Hexenwerk, and most of your other points are issues for me as well, so we're on the same page.

Just for further data, the tabletop podcast Under Discussion also examined the second edition alongside the 1st edition in this episode:

https://soundcloud.com/underdiscussion/ud223-7th-sea-part-two

My problem is I just can't get into 2nd eds rules changes. I like most of the setting changes (most, not all. Making Dranchenesien only for monster hunting was dumb. I don't like the changes to Vesten either)

But the system.. I really wanted to like it, but I can't. Neither can my group, just to storygamey for us.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;910499Actually, you discussed my previously stated problems with Hexenwerk, and most of your other points are issues for me as well, so we're on the same page.

Good to know.  For me, dracheneisen is an easy fix.  There are folks on the 7th Sea 2 forums who have done a lot of the hard work already.  It's still gonna be awhile before I run a long-term game, so I have time to see how things develop.

QuoteJust for further data, the tabletop podcast Under Discussion also examined the second edition alongside the 1st edition in this episode:

https://soundcloud.com/underdiscussion/ud223-7th-sea-part-two

COOL!  Thanks for the tip.  Will definitely listen.

Quote from: Orphan81;910502My problem is I just can't get into 2nd eds rules changes. I like most of the setting changes (most, not all. Making Dranchenesien only for monster hunting was dumb. I don't like the changes to Vesten either)

But the system.. I really wanted to like it, but I can't. Neither can my group, just to storygamey for us.

Hmmm…I guess I really haven't played or read enough storygames.  I've never played FATE or any flavor of Apocalypse World.  So when I look at 7th Sea 2, I don't see those comparisons.

What I do see is a different flavor of game than 99% of the RPGs I've played in the past, where its not so much about what you roll and when, but the choices you make and the repercussions of those choices.  That's why i find 7th Sea 2 interesting and also why I say it's outside my comfort zone.  I'm very comfortable at this stage throwing out target numbers and such.  This game forces me – as the GM – to think in a different way.  After 35+ years of regular RPG play, that makes it an interesting challenge.

BTW, for those of you who are choking on the changes, I had an epiphany the other day looking over my old All For One: Regime Diabolique book.  Ubiquity plus some simple house rules could make for a very convincing blend of 1st and 2nd edition 7th Sea.  I need to do more research to see if my ideas break Ubiquity, but it might be the perfect rosetta stone for keeping the best of both games.

Tom