http://www.alderac.com/blog/2015/11/03/a-return-to-7th-sea/



I was a big fan of the 7th Sea back in the early 2000's but after reading John Wick's blog about D&D not being a "real" RPG and his flawed reasoning behind it, coupled with his desire for "modern RPG" design, makes me feel like this won't be the product for me.

Anyone ever play 50 Fathoms?

If anyone says D&D is not a rpg can't be any good at making a rpg.  If I wasn't trying to run Exalted on this site I can show you guys a pirate game through my handcrafted system.

QuoteI'm also very excited to see the game rejuvenated with modern game design and technology

THIS does not bode well for me. I loved 7th Sea and I loved Wick's work back with AEG, but his later games went in a direction I haven't enjoyed.


There is an email list you can join to get info as it develops.
http://www.sailthe7thsea.com/

Quote from: Snowman0147;862950If anyone says D&D is not a rpg can't be any good at making a rpg.  If I wasn't trying to run Exalted on this site I can show you guys a pirate game through my handcrafted system.

I have to disagree here, John Wick is one of the most talented RPG writers out there. Yes, he has an Ego the size of a Mountain, but he's talented. He created L5R and 7th Sea, and Houses of the Blooded along with several other well known games, beyond his work with "Wicked Fantasy" and his excellent GM guides "Play Dirty 1 &2".

This has me excited, I have been using Honor&Intrigue to run 7th Sea, but I'd love to see what John's new fresh take is.

God dammit. I had finally shaken off my desire to fix that cruddy system and resolved to leave 7th Sea in the past. This is after I cleaned up the original rules from top to bottom in an attempt to get it to work, but after two frustrating campaigns it was like a marriage on the rocks. I was constantly haunted by a desire to convert it to a more modern D&D ruleset, but resisted, my rational mind enumerating the pitfalls of such a project.

And now here we are once more Mr. Wick, you genius asshole you. I never thought that property would see the light of day again, least of all under your control. I can already feel the old flames of passion lighting up my imagination, threatening to tear my focus away from the excellent 5e. Oh how my brother and friends will groan.

Lots of questions here:
- How much will he try to stay close to the original rules for the benefit of established fans, if at all? I know he's a fiery revolutionary and all that, but surely part of the point here is to cash in on the old school fanbase, right?
- Where will the meta-plot stand? I'd personally like to see it pushed away into the shadows, the way 4e Legend of the Five Rings became "meta-plot neutral".
- Will the Syrneth-as-alien-invaders element be minimized or swept under the carpet? Wick never sounded thrilled by how sci fi the setting got after he left.
- Will swordsman schools exist in whatever new rules-light hippy paradigm he's likely to use? They were one of the systems that clashed most with the original rules and I had a devil of a time trying to make them perform as intended. You can't really have free-wheeling improvisational combat paired with strict schools that dictate certain maneuvers are only available to certain people.
- Will some of the secret societies get dialed back to their original low-key write-ups? That would be great, as some of them "evolved" in such messy directions that they distorted the setting (Die Kreuzritter, Sophia's Daughters)
- Will players who want to be sorcerers still get guilt-tripped by the setting in unfun ways? Nothing kills the swashbuckling elan quite like finding out mid-game that your magic is wrecking reality through no ill-intent of your own.
- How much shit is he going to get for "cultural appropriation" and "celebrating intolerance" once he starts dealing with the setting's pseudo-crusades, pseudo-China, and pseudo-Arabia?

On his facebook page, John has already made 2 promises for the new 7th Sea..

No Aliens
No D20

I doubt I'll ever buy a role playing game written by someone who doesn't understand what a role playing game is!

Quote from: JohnWickthe focus of an RPG is to tell stories

Quote from: JohnWickroleplaying game: a game in which the players are rewarded for making choices that are consistent with the character's motivations or further the plot of the story.

Where did Wick say that D&D wasn't a real RPG?

Either way, I was underwhelmed by Houses of the Blooded. In particular, I was singularly unimpressed with the way it tries to borrow FATE's Compel mechanic without showing an understanding of the FATE point economy and balancing factors that make that mechanic actually function in practice.

Quote from: Warthur;863015Where did Wick say that D&D wasn't a real RPG?

http://johnwickpresents.com/games/game-designs/chess-is-not-an-rpg-the-illusion-of-game-balance/

Quote from: JohnWickThe first four editions of D&D are not roleplaying games.

Best case I foresee is that a new edition sparka the creation of some art I can use for my Honor+Intrigue game.

John Wick talks about the Chess article here, in a conversation with Zak S.  I think it's a really good, interesting conversation, but whether D&D is a role playing game or a war game, and what those terms mean.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- How much will he try to stay close to the original rules for the benefit of established fans, if at all? I know he's a fiery revolutionary and all that, but surely part of the point here is to cash in on the old school fanbase, right?

He should write two 7th Seas - one for traditional RPGers and one for the indie crowd. Offer two different experiences in the same setting.

While he's at it, he should also do a new card game (non-CCG) and a boardgame too. No reason not to make the most of his IP and reach out to fans in different mediums.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- Where will the meta-plot stand? I'd personally like to see it pushed away into the shadows, the way 4e Legend of the Five Rings became "meta-plot neutral".

If his other games are any indication, I expect the metaplot will become retreat into the background as setting history or potential adventure arcs.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- Will the Syrneth-as-alien-invaders element be minimized or swept under the carpet? Wick never sounded thrilled by how sci fi the setting got after he left.

I'm happy he said "no aliens" - I was never a Syrneth fan.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- Will swordsman schools exist in whatever new rules-light hippy paradigm he's likely to use? They were one of the systems that clashed most with the original rules and I had a devil of a time trying to make them perform as intended. You can't really have free-wheeling improvisational combat paired with strict schools that dictate certain maneuvers are only available to certain people.

I actually liked the swordsman schools and the idea that certain techniques are unique to certain schools, but I agree those rules need work.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- Will some of the secret societies get dialed back to their original low-key write-ups? That would be great, as some of them "evolved" in such messy directions that they distorted the setting (Die Kreuzritter, Sophia's Daughters)

The secret societies always seemed to me as a ploy to sell more splatbooks. They seemed too powerful in the setting, almost putting nations in the background. Maybe that was the point, but that didn't work for me.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- Will players who want to be sorcerers still get guilt-tripped by the setting in unfun ways? Nothing kills the swashbuckling elan quite like finding out mid-game that your magic is wrecking reality through no ill-intent of your own.

I'm good with magic have consequences, but that does affect the tone of the setting which in 7th Sea always seemed best when it was light, heroic and reminiscent of stuff like Errol Flynn and Pirates of the Caribbean.  

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- How much shit is he going to get for "cultural appropriation" and "celebrating intolerance" once he starts dealing with the setting's pseudo-crusades, pseudo-China, and pseudo-Arabia?

Lots of shit...or none. It all depends if the SJWs are in the mood to eat one of their indie luminaries. My bet is someone is going to nibble at him and see if the nibble becomes a feeding frenzy or whether John gets a pass as a sacred cow.

Quote from: Bren;863032Best case I foresee is that a new edition sparka the creation of some art I can use for my Honor+Intrigue game.

Bren, have you read the original edition source material?  There is a TON of stuff to steal for any game set in the periods are games are.  And a cleaned up system that gave the same response from the players would be GOLD.  You can ask anyone who complains about the system in all its brokenness why they continue/ed to play and every one of them will tell you the same thing: it is FUN!

Tom

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;863012- How much will he try to stay close to the original rules for the benefit of established fans, if at all? I know he's a fiery revolutionary and all that, but surely part of the point here is to cash in on the old school fanbase, right?

Agreed.  It's gotta quack like a duck...err...look and smell like 7th Sea, even if it looks different around the edges.  If you can't play a big old Eisen mercenary wielding a 2 and a half handed sword forged of dragonbone, I'm not sure you can really call it 7th Sea.

Quote- Where will the meta-plot stand? I'd personally like to see it pushed away into the shadows, the way 4e Legend of the Five Rings became "meta-plot neutral".

Just a guess here, but given the state of the market and Wick's small operation, I'm not sure he could possibly support a metaplot driven splat treadmill like the original game.  

Quote- Will the Syrneth-as-alien-invaders element be minimized or swept under the carpet? Wick never sounded thrilled by how sci fi the setting got after he left.

I suspect the Syrneth will still be there (see point one), but their origins (except for maybe one) will probably be swept back under the rug of mystery (where they should be).  I thought the syrneth, coupled with the Explorer's Society, was damn cool because it enabled you to play weird D&D dungeoncrawls with over-the-top swashbuckling heroes.  They worked beautifully and had an internal logic built into the game.  I'd be sad to see them go just so some people wouldn't have to bitch about genre purity.

Quote- Will swordsman schools exist in whatever new rules-light hippy paradigm he's likely to use? They were one of the systems that clashed most with the original rules and I had a devil of a time trying to make them perform as intended. You can't really have free-wheeling improvisational combat paired with strict schools that dictate certain maneuvers are only available to certain people.

Again, see point 1.  I expect swordsman styles would have to be there in some form, even if they have completely different mechanics.

Quote- Will some of the secret societies get dialed back to their original low-key write-ups? That would be great, as some of them "evolved" in such messy directions that they distorted the setting (Die Kreuzritter, Sophia's Daughters)

Agreed.  But it would also be cool if the new edition were backwards compatible enough that if I really loved Sophia's Daughters (Hypothetically.  Work with me here.) that I could reintroduce a lot of the fluff from the original edition without breaking the game.

Quote- Will players who want to be sorcerers still get guilt-tripped by the setting in unfun ways? Nothing kills the swashbuckling elan quite like finding out mid-game that your magic is wrecking reality through no ill-intent of your own.

We played for years and that sort of stuff never really came up.  Granted, I think we only ever used Glamour and maybe one or two characters had it.  Like the Syrneth, I expect a lot of that will get swept under the rug.  Hell, my understanding is the original concept only had three types of sorcery (glamour, porte and sorte) and the rest were added by administrative directive.  So we may be looking at a more conceptually pure version of the game a year from now.  I have no idea.

Quote- How much shit is he going to get for "cultural appropriation" and "celebrating intolerance" once he starts dealing with the setting's pseudo-crusades, pseudo-China, and pseudo-Arabia?

Well I hope John Wick lives up to his reputation and beats those people to death with his monstrous ego.  More seriously, I don't expect a big sourcebook treadmill for a new 7th Sea edition, so what does it matter so long as the core book is playable?

Tom

Quote from: Blusponge;863052Bren, have you read the original edition source material?  There is a TON of stuff to steal for any game set in the periods are games are.  And a cleaned up system that gave the same response from the players would be GOLD.  You can ask anyone who complains about the system in all its brokenness why they continue/ed to play and every one of them will tell you the same thing: it is FUN!

Tom

No, I haven't.

I'm somewhat familiar with the game. I've looked at stuff that's published on the web with setting information from various source books, I picked up a 7th Sea Character Handbook/quick-reference guide I found somewhere or other, I've read a fair number of threads on 7th Sea (mostly at the BP), and I have the four part comic "Absolution."

From those various sources Theah appears to me to be an historical pastiche setting with magic that is at least as common as what one sees in all of the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise put together and then some. Magic is probably more common than in PotC since AFAIK PCs can and do wield magic in the setting. While that is less magic than a game run with say the Pathfinder rules, that's way too much magic for the tone of the game I want to run.

On top of that, I'd have to go through the process of reversing the real world to pastiche process by turning Avalon back to England, Montaigne back to France, etc. While that might be less work for me than researching and creating something new, adapting a pastiche doesn't provide the enjoyment I get from including the real world stuff I research in my game setting and adventures. So I've pretty much ignored 7th Sea (aside from the pictures and one villain I swiped) in favor of games like Flashing Blades, At Rapiers Point, All for One: Regime Diabolique, and Savage World of Solomon Kane that are set in some version of earth's history.

That's not to say that some people won't enjoy a pastiche more than actual or alt history, just that a pastiche isn't what I'm looking for.

On top of that, by most accounts the system kind of sucks. Given all those problems 7th Sea hasn't seemed like a good product to spend my money or time on.

What do you enjoy most about the setting? What gets you excited about the game or setting?