On the off-chance that it might offer a useful reference point for this discussion, here's a quick sample of what I think an interesting "empty room" key looks like. This particular set of rooms is an expansion of Dark Tidings, as adventure by Monte Cook: In the original module, there's just one room (10) with a hydra in it. I've expanded it into a small compound as shown below: A single hydra will be encountered somewhere in this complex, but that means that most of these rooms will be "empty" when encountered.



Area 10 - Hall of the Hydra. Huge clawmarks around the door leading to area 9. The stone has been partially smashed in.

Area 10B - Hydra Transfer Pen. An immense metallic rig runs down the length of the chamber, immense lengths of chain which apparently once belonged to it lie in ruined heaps. One entire side has been physically yanked out of the stone, descending into a tumbled ruin on the western side of the chamber.

DM Background: Hydras were once chained to this rig in order to control them in moving them between the male pens (10I) and female pen (10C).

Area 10C - Hydra's Den. Large, mountainous pile of rock collapsed from the ceiling. A dais in one corner of the room functions as a create food and water spell (creating enough food for 1 adult hydra) automatically once per day as long as a living hydra is in the area.

Area 10D - Nest of Glass. A nest of multi-colored glass has been carefully arranged to nestle 4 large hydra eggs. (2 are dead from the torpor effects of the Sartalin Sphere. 1 will hatch as soon as it's removed from the torpor-effect. 1 will hatch within 2d4 weeks if removed from the torpor effect.)

Area 10E - Shattered Laboratory. Scorch marks, melted remnants of metallic equipment, huge claw-wrought gouges on the wall in the northwest corner.

Area 10F - Hatchling Laboratory. Just on the other side of the door leading to 10E are the skeletal remains of a hydra hatchling. An empty hydra eggshell rests in a ceramic basin on a worktable in the center of the room. The dismembered skeleton of a large orc lies in a corner.

ALCHEMICAL EQUIPMENT: Badly damaged injection devices surround the eggshell.

DM Background: The hatchling was trapped in this area and starved to death, mewling for its mother who clawed desperately at the other side of the wall.

Area 10G - Laboratory Hallway. Long, barren hall of stone.

ONE-WAY WINDOWS: Touching the walls shared with areas 10C or 10I cause them to become transparent from this side.

DM Background: This hall was used by the laboratory workers here to move to the various areas of the Hall of the Hydra.

Area 10H - Research Center.  A few stone tables and chairs of rotten wood. Used to be paper, but its all dust now. On a worktable along one wall are five mummified hydra hearts, two of which were apparently in a state of partial dissection.

DM Background: The researchers working in this room were in 10F (eaten by hatchling) and 10I (eaten by hydras who ripped open their observation cage) when the torpor effect hit.

AREA 10I - Hydra Graveyard. A cage of metal built into the corner of the room has been ripped apart as if by tremendous strength. Along the far end of the hall three hydra skeletons have been arranged as if in funereal ceremony.

BLUESTEEL DOOR: In the north wall here.

DM Background: The metabolisms of the hydras were slowed but not stopped by the Sartalin Sphere’s effects (this was one of the major areas of study in this area).

Quote from: Black Vulmea;590223What seems to be missing - in spades - from Dwimmermount is interactivity. 'Deep background' isn't the same thing as having interesting shit to fuck around with.

This is astute.

I think if you look at the level as a whole, it does have interesting stuff.

The room in question was simply an old storeroom now inhabited by rats. It's not like it was the focus of the entire first level...it's just a storeroom.

Do people today want dungeons where every room has cool stuff in it? That's what it sounds like...

And for that Hydra example - what if the players only went through 1/3 of the rooms and never found anything? That's essentially the case here (or so it sounds like).

If you let players explore on their own, they have a chance of missing stuff. But that doesn't mean you should lead them to every interesting room, nor does it mean that it's a bad module.

But it sounds like the party found nothing interesting at all.

Look at some adventures by Gabor Lux for examples of dungeon interactivity done right. "Temple of the Sea Demon" and anything from his Isles on an Emerald Sea series spring to mind. Players can miss rooms, find them, ignore things or play with them but there damn sure is a lot of intriguing dressing, tricks to play with & history that can be discovered in fun, dangerous or beneficial ways.

Dwimmermount so far seems like a fairly standard, mundane mega-dungeon- exactly as I would have concluded considering how it was generated and the blog style of the author. Nothing wrong with that, I am sure the dungeon will have it's shining moments on other levels, but it hardly matches the enormous hype created by the publicity announcements & wild success of the Kickstarter.

Quote from: Benoist;590115I have to disagree with that notion, having run published modules and adventures for a wide variety of games as well as my own material in quite a few occasions. I think the real key is this ability for the GM reading the material to own it and run it as his own.

From there, the point of a written module should be, as far as I'm concerned, to provide the means and tools for a variety of GMs out there to be able to do just that. When this design goal is achieved, you actually are providing a more "authentic" old school experience to a wide variety of groups and playstyles than you would ever have trying to replicate your own play style as a GM (let alone some dead guy's) onto the page trying to make people run games the way you are at your own game table.

PS: noticed Melan's post above. I think we're trying to express the same core idea in different ways here.

I agree. I run tons of published adventures on many games, and I have found them very very useful. Also, some people have played those adventures after having experienced them before, and sometimes they didn't even realize it.

Quote from: noisms;590117Do you think there is no difference between a good GM running his own dungeon and an equally good GM running a published module?

I don't think that should necessarily happen, no.

Quote from: Benoist;590121I think there will be in effect no difference because the good GM will run the published module AS his own dungeon. Now the relevant question as far as module design is concerned, in my opinion, is HOW the module allows GMs to rise to that level and in effect, BECOME good GMs running the material as their own, which in turn will affect their inspiration and the way they come up with their own stuff, which starts a cycle, by example, that creates better GMing across the board, beyond the module itself.

Yeah.

Quote from: Benoist;590178I'm kind of flabberghasted that this kind of discussion, as soon as it does not go overboard with raves and utter/complete support for the product, would be labeled a "shitstorm" in any way, shape or form. This is so far from the reality of this thread I have to wonder what kind of braindead groupthink would generate these types of reactions where you can't criticize anything without being shot down as a "hater".

That's bullshit. Fuck that noise.

Honestly, Joe, I thank you very much for your feedback, for not taking things personally when I criticized your approach to the module, and estar with whom all exchanges, no matter how contentious, are fruitful, as well as Justin and Kent for their examples, and everyone else who's thrown his own two coppers on this thread. We've had a good discussion so far. It's good food for thought for anyone who'll care, and speaking for myself, I certainly do.

Yup, great thread

Quote from: JeremyR;590245The room in question was simply an old storeroom now inhabited by rats. It's not like it was the focus of the entire first level...it's just a storeroom.

Then it probably should not have exactly 2000 cp in it. That is the kind of thing that demands an explanation and players are going to get very frustrated if there isn't one.

If a treasure says 2,000 Sp or whatever, I always roll 1d1000 twice and sum it, unless there is a specific reason that exactly 2,000 S.P. would be in the treasure (like... a barrel full of silver, a chest with a an accounting note) or some such thing.

Focusing on 2000cp seems like a ridiculous over-reaction, but it really does point to laziness and a lack of detail.  Why not just a random number?  Why only copper?  How did it get there?  If the answer was that rats like shiny stuff and gathered it, should have been...
2d1000 cp
1d20 sp
1d6 ep
1d2 gp (if the players specifically search the entire room)
...or whatever.

9 rats with 2000cp is the kind of stuff that got modules laughed at in the early days and rightfully so.  It's a cliche of random roll dungeon design with no rhyme or reason, ie.  N00b Mistake.  I think that's what is causing all the Sturm und Drang.

However, I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to create and publish a megadungeon worth something with the RPGsphere breathing down my neck and crawling up my ass with a microscope, but then again, I didn't get paid more then the yearly salary of the FFG 40k Line Developer for the product, either.

Quote from: CRKrueger;590332Focusing on 2000cp seems like a ridiculous over-reaction,

Welcome to RPGSite!  :pundit:

Quote from: CRKrueger;590332Focusing on 2000cp seems like a ridiculous over-reaction, but it really does point to laziness and a lack of detail.

I think that a key point is a huge aspect of dungeon exploration is that your characters are actually looking for things that seem odd, as they are often vital clues to what is going on. So any oddity you add automatically becomes a Chekhov's Gun in that the audience (i.e. the players) has been conditioned to expect it to lead to resolution.

So as a writer you possibly need to be thinking what expectations am I setting up in this room, and am I providing any pay off for them.

A similar situation came up in the Blingdenstone play-test I ran, when the PCs discovered that there was nothing interesting on the other side of a set of pretty complex secret doors. That quickly moved them from being immersed in the game to an out-of-character conversation de-constructing the scenario.

I disagree, 2000cp isn't laziness and lack of attention to detail - it's valuing game play over verisimilitude.

When you're totaling up the loot, it is a lot less bookkeeping to deal with 2000cp, than say 1932 cp, 4 sp, 10 ep, 1 gp, and 3 pp.  It's also easier to communicate to the players, and takes less space on the page.

I'm going by memory here, but I believe that most TSR modules do the same thing. Although I only really have modules up to the early 80's, and couldn't say a thing about how 2e and beyond dealt with loot.

Quote from: JeremyR;590245The room in question was simply an old storeroom now inhabited by rats. It's not like it was the focus of the entire first level...it's just a storeroom.

No single room is going to demonstrate the problem, because it can always be dismissed as "just one room".

QuoteAnd for that Hydra example - what if the players only went through 1/3 of the rooms and never found anything?

I don't understand the question. What do you mean by "never found anything"?

Quote from: Black Vulmea;590223The general description of Dwimmermount reminded me of Trent Foster's Castle Xanadu, which I've been fortunate enough to adventure in a couple of times. It is constructed very much in the same vein as roots-dungeons, with the one-third empty rooms and so forth, but the parts of it we explored included stuff like psychedelic incense and a ewer which when filled with blood summoned deadly cloud tentacles - after a few drops of blood summoned a few wispy tentacles, we filled up the bowl with blood from hobgoblins we killed, and the tentacles proceeded to kill one of our clerics.

You're a sweetheart. This testimonial is almost enough to make me want to dig out that notebook and work more of the Castle into playable shape for next summer's SoCal Minicon. Almost.

Quote from: T. Foster;590352This testimonial is almost enough to make me want to dig out that notebook and work more of the Castle into playable shape for next summer's SoCal Minicon.

Give in.  You know you want to.  

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;590361Give in.  You know you want to.  

Ditto.