Quote from: noisms;590117Do you think there is no difference between a good GM running his own dungeon and an equally good GM running a published module?

I agree with the implication here that there is no comparison between creative DMs running their own material and DMs who were nurtured on modules and failed to grow out of that dependancy.

Quote from: Benoist;590121I think there will be in effect no difference because the good GM will run the published module AS his own dungeon.

We are at a point where we might define a third category of DM, a very large one at that, of great pretenders who claim to be creative but do little more than rearrange the furniture, move and resize rectangles into 'new' maps and restock random tables with brand new monsters from the monster manual (or the fiend folio!) to make a new dungeon.

For this category there is of course no difference between running their own permutation of the same old shit and the same old shit itself. Are they creative? No, they are not creative.

JMal, based on accounts so far, falls into this group. As does anyone who believes this type of DM is creative.

Quote from: PatW;590346I disagree, 2000cp isn't laziness and lack of attention to detail - it's valuing game play over verisimilitude.

Bollox. If numbers frighten you don't leave coins around at all. Or you could call piles of coins "treasure units" and put plastic buttons down on the board of whatever boardgame you play when you claim you are playing D&D.

PatW, I'll bet as a grown man you are still playing a version of D&D with training wheels still on it. BECMI?

Quote from: CRKrueger;590332Focusing on 2000cp seems like a ridiculous over-reaction, but it really does point to laziness and a lack of detail.  

That's the thing.  The treasure types should be a guideline to the value and portability of the treasure found, not to be interpreted literally.  "2000 cp" should indicate a fairly low-value accumulation of goods that will be a major pain in the ass to get out of the dungeon.  A few old pewter belt buckles, the belts to which they belonged long-since rotted away; an old and heavy ironwood chair that's badly beaten and scuffed but might get some silver if sold for scrap; etc.

I'm surprised that stuff like this is in Dwimmermount.  EGG had a fairly in-depth description of how to create a treasure hoard using the tables as a guide in the DMG.  It's one of the better sections of that book, really, and I'm surprised Mr. Old School didn't heed such guidelines.

Wow, getting ugly in here. I will say that I don't think it was the DMs fault. We did ask him to run it RAW.

JMal does not strike me as old school. He's more like a music academic from the 80s trying to recreate Woodstock.

Quote from: T. Foster;590352You're a sweetheart. This testimonial is almost enough to make me want to dig out that notebook and work more of the Castle into playable shape for next summer's SoCal Minicon. Almost.

Wait, there's a SoCal minicon?

Quote from: Mistwell;590388Wait, there's a SoCal minicon?

SoCal MiniCon 1
SoCal MiniCon 2
SoCal MiniCon 3
SoCal MiniCon #4
SoCal MiniCon 4
A Fifth of SoCal MiniCon

Also here.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;590165I had no idea that my DM's blogpost, then mine following up on his, would create such a shitstorm.  I figured some discussion, but not at this level.  I never would have thought 6 people agreeing that something was boring and lame would lead to so many people dissecting our words and experiences so much, trying in many cases to turn the blame back on us.  It's almost as if someone can't say something sucked anymore, or that there are sacred cows that you can't touch.

Oh, please.

I started this thread because I wanted to make sure I was understanding the whole context of what you wrote, not to call you on the carpet over it. You may believe, "Be awesome!" perfectly communicates your experience and expectations, but all I see is a tired, over-used - including by me - hackneyed phrase tossed off by gamers that really says nothing to anyone, since we all have (sometimes radically) different ideas of what it means to be 'awesome!'

The irony of branding yourself a "Shit-Stirrer" then getting defensive and evasive - really? you can't name a couple of other published dungeon crawls you liked 'cause why, exactly? - at the response to a strongly negative review is palpable.

I genuinely appreciate you answering my questions, as it helps me understand a bit more about your reaction, but as far as this persecution complex stuff? Geebus, get over yourself.

Quote from: _kent_;590375Bollox. If numbers frighten you don't leave coins around at all. Or you could call piles of coins "treasure units" and put plastic buttons down on the board of whatever boardgame you play when you claim you are playing D&D.

I think Mike Mearls already did that, didn't he?

Quote from: T. Foster;590352You're a sweetheart. This testimonial is almost enough to make me want to dig out that notebook and work more of the Castle into playable shape for next summer's SoCal Minicon. Almost.

Truth be told, I'd much rather go back to the pub and play there again.

In any case, Jacques l'Ecuyer is ready to strap on a dead man's armor and plumb the depths of Castle Xanadu anytime, Trent, though I'd really like to deal with those bandits on the surface first . . .

Quote from: Joethelawyer;590165I really do think that's all I can say on the whole thing though.  I had no idea that my DM's blogpost, then mine following up on his, would create such a shitstorm.  I figured some discussion, but not at this level.

I thought your blogpost was perfectly clear and this thread was inevitable as soon as anyone posted a recap of his experience with DMount. The fact that you are asked to account for some of your observations and that you were willing to do so is a sign that the discussion is healthy though the OP does appear in fact to harbour prissy suspicions.

It would be interesting to hear a positive report resulting from DMount play from someone who is equally willing to explain his thinking, although being branded as an admirer of DMount at this point could be a scar he is unwilling to bear unless he was a liar of the calibre of Zak Shibboleth with some motive like 'We sell our shit to morons, we band of brothers'.

And, excepting Philotomy, maybe it would be a good thing if the knights & knaves hivemind, if you can call six monkeys a hive, would slink back to their tiny tiny forum where they sniff and eat each others faeces.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;590076Yeah but D'mount sucking and what D'mount has to offer is a fait accompli.  Rat poop, empty rooms that do nothing, etc.; while Justin makes a good case for how to make those exciting, and even considering my stump which has always been "Modules are a framework, it's up to the DM to flesh them out" at the end of the day all J.M. has done is (started to; it's not completed and still out the window as to whether or not it's ever going to be completed) hand-cranked what you can get off of a hundred different websites that do the whole "generate and populate a random dungeon", by using the back of the DMG as his source engine.

Any decent DM should be able to turn that kind of chickenshit into chicken Kiev.

Quote from: thecrazygm;590380Wow, getting ugly in here. I will say that I don't think it was the DMs fault. We did ask him to run it RAW.

That was your mistake. Most old-school modules were sparse on details for most of the areas covered. I mean, did you ask the DM to run any of the G or D series without fleshing them out? Sounds like you were asking for a shitty time, got one, and are now blaming Mr Grognardia.

Quote from: _kent_;590374I agree with the implication here that there is no comparison between creative DMs running their own material and DMs who were nurtured on modules and failed to grow out of that dependancy.

I don't know, maybe it's good to try someone else's material if for no other reason than to try something new and surprise players who have become too familiar with a particular DM's style.

QuoteAnd, excepting Philotomy, maybe it would be a good thing if the knights & knaves hivemind, if you can call six monkeys a hive, would slink back to their tiny tiny forum where they sniff and eat each others faeces.

Now now...

You're being grossly unfair to the Teabaggers of D&D. There are at least nine or ten members doing the K&K Circlejerk -1st Edition Circlejerk, of course.

Quote from: Elfdart;590451Now now...

You're being grossly unfair to the Teabaggers of D&D. There are at least nine or ten members doing the K&K Circlejerk -1st Edition Circlejerk, of course.

That's true...and only six of them are sockpuppet accounts belonging to Kent and Elfdart.

Quote from: _kent_;590441And, excepting Philotomy, maybe it would be a good thing if the knights & knaves hivemind, if you can call six monkeys a hive, would slink back to their tiny tiny forum where they sniff and eat each others faeces.

Oh brother!