Quote from: Lunamancer on April 14, 2022, 07:09:57 AMI think there are a few reasons for it. First, players feel less obligated to show up. The feeling of obligation can be a terrible thing when you're doing something that's supposed to be fun. Second, players know the game is going to go on regardless. Imagine how much it sucks to pass up the opportunity to do something else to make the game only to find out we're doing Munchkin night instead because a key player didn't show up. How will that affect your decision the next time you have to choose between the game or something else? Third, knowing the game is going to go on, some players are going to wonder what they're missing. In today's social media addicted culture, we've actually got the term FOMO. So this part of it should be more powerful than ever.

This is exactly my experience when I switch to an open table style of game almost 10 years ago. It turns out to be a great way to play when you have people whose schedules don't always align.

There is another advantage in that it breaks the current assumption that all PCs need to be the exact same level and that leveling up is somehow involved "tiers of play". In an open table game, leveling up is an accomplishment so having a high level character is a symbol of that accomplishment. It isn't just something that will eventually happen to everyone at the same time. This makes the appearance of a player with a high level character a good thing as it will help the party accomplish their goals. It isn't, as it's looked at today, a case of spotlight hogging.

Also, since that player with a high level character might not show up every session (or the player might play a different character) it means that the position of highest level character and party composition will change from game to game. I was involved with one open table campaign where I was among the lowest level characters one session (standing in the back and trying not to die) and the highest level character the next (leading a pack of newbs through the first level of the dungeon). Plus the party composition changes so you might have two wizards one session and no wizards the next. That variety made the game much more enjoyable.

Quote from: Lunamancer on April 13, 2022, 11:35:44 PMAnd that's how I take that passage. It's not finger wagging saying, "You better follow all these rules!" To the contrary, the sentence right before tells you not to allow any barracks room lawyer to bully you into putting the letter of the rules over the spirit of the game. Rather, what it's saying is, "Hey, this is one DM to another. We're equal peers, so I know you're going to do your thing. But if you're ever not sure what to do, put the overall game first, your campaign second, and the players desires third and you'll be golden." That shouldn't be controversial. That's just plain good sound advice.

One of the advantages of BtB play, which I touch on earlier, is the knowledge that succeeding and gaining levels is an accomplishment. That the DM isn't just making ruling in order to insure that the party always succeeds. I know many DMs or players don't actually care if they earned their level ups, but it is a specific style of play with a specific benefit.

This is true even if you point out that Gygax didn't actually follow the rules he wrote. That point is effectively meaningless as it doesn't address the advantage of having a clearly defined rules set that DM and players agree on before play begins.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 14, 2022, 03:22:08 AM

Quote from: Lunamancer on April 13, 2022, 11:35:44 PMFor me, I do use what the "1:1" passage actually suggests--when there is no active play, I assume 1 game day passes (at least) for every actual day. I've done this since 1992 because that's when I read that in the book, not 2020 when Jeffro claims to have coined the term after discovering this long-lost concept because I don't follow him at all. The reason I've done this is because I want to keep time flowing. During actually play, in a session, you could easily bang out a month+ of game time. As Pundit suggests, if everyone is caught up temporally and engaged in activity that takes an extended amount of time, we can and do fast forward to the point where those characters can play again.

I do this too, and I think Jeffro would say that it's implied in the text by looking at how Gary Gygax actually played the game at home -- he cites a few times the fact that Gygax was apparently doing 1:1 time in his home games back in the day.

Now, I have a question. What do you do if the session ends while the party is in a dungeon or something? Do you freeze the time progression until they get out, do you handwave them leaving, do you do something else? Situations that need to be frozen in time don't play well that way. Or do you just have them escape next time then "catch up" time by skipping ahead the amount that passed IRL?

That was also when Gygax was DMing for twenty players in a mega dungeon with no idea who would be there at any given session.

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on April 14, 2022, 09:24:56 AM"what do you do when your party is spending 7 days traveling? stop playing and wait until they're there?"   am I the only one who was thinking about alternative things that could be done?  For instance, I know there are games where people have a pool of characters to choose to play with, why wouldn't it also be possible to have 2 or 3 different adventuring groups that players could control?  When 1-2 of the adventuring parties are traveling, 1-2 might be available to actually run an adventure?  That's just one idea of how to keep playing while waiting for 1 group to travel, I'm sure other ideas could pop up.

Here's a Google Doc covering "1:1 Time During Downtime" (and note it IS during downtime, not at the table): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y102v1DSDKMtPf0PDEW43ehD-6tgw3rpDw_vRjVkXg4/edit?usp=sharing

It is incomplete, some of the points are just notes, but it explains the principle thoroughly and lists some of the consequences.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig on April 14, 2022, 01:52:55 PM

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on April 14, 2022, 09:24:56 AM"what do you do when your party is spending 7 days traveling? stop playing and wait until they're there?"   am I the only one who was thinking about alternative things that could be done?  For instance, I know there are games where people have a pool of characters to choose to play with, why wouldn't it also be possible to have 2 or 3 different adventuring groups that players could control?  When 1-2 of the adventuring parties are traveling, 1-2 might be available to actually run an adventure?  That's just one idea of how to keep playing while waiting for 1 group to travel, I'm sure other ideas could pop up.

Here's a Google Doc covering "1:1 Time During Downtime" (and note it IS during downtime, not at the table): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y102v1DSDKMtPf0PDEW43ehD-6tgw3rpDw_vRjVkXg4/edit?usp=sharing

It is incomplete, some of the points are just notes, but it explains the principle thoroughly and lists some of the consequences.

Thanks for the link.  I'll give it a go over.

I'm probably the odd man out here. 

I don't play, or have ever played any D&D.  I've played other games instead, mostly the Palladium Books line of games. 

Today I'm experimenting with rules lite games such as The Anime Hack, Mini-6 Bare Bones Edition, Pocket Fantasy, and Dungeons and Delvers: Dice Pool edition. 

I might try Pundit's own Star Adventurer, and when it's time to actually play D&D, then I'll break out my unused copy of Basic Fantasy. 

I firmly believe people need to branch out to other games.  I'll go one step further and say D&D isn't that good. It's just popular since it was first.

For all you AD&Ders who track time -- do you also track strict encumbrance and things like gear needed to camp and start fires and stuff too? Or do you handwave that? How anal do you get about it? Does it make a difference?

1:1, game time equal to real time?  This sounds utterly insane.  Jeffro mentioned he was doing Isle of Dread.  How did he handle the long sea voyages?

What about one minute combat rounds?  What does your fighter do with the other 59 seconds when he is not making his one attack*?

*Save 15% on his car i suranceby switching to Geico

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 14, 2022, 10:18:20 PM
1:1, game time equal to real time?

1:1 Time During Downtime. See the link above.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 14, 2022, 10:57:56 AM

Quote from: Daddy Warpig on April 11, 2022, 12:02:51 AMWhen there's no discussion of the substance of what they're endorsing, there's no debate or understanding. Kinda disappointing.

Yeah. I had to stop 45 minutes in when it was clear that there was no effort being made by the Inappropriate Characters crew to actually try and understand what Jeffro was saying.

Yeah, the cult stuff was goofy.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 14, 2022, 11:03:39 AM
There is another advantage in that it breaks the current assumption that all PCs need to be the exact same level and that leveling up is somehow involved "tiers of play". In an open table game, leveling up is an accomplishment so having a high level character is a symbol of that accomplishment. It isn't just something that will eventually happen to everyone at the same time. This makes the appearance of a player with a high level character a good thing as it will help the party accomplish their goals. It isn't, as it's looked at today, a case of spotlight hogging.

Yeah, spotlight talk in RPGs always seemed like gibberish to me. Even before I was doing "open table", my very first long-running campaign I ran when I was 12. I swapped off DMing duties with another player because I was teaching him the game A to Z, including game mastering. There were only 3 of us playing total, my, my friend, and my younger brother. So guess what? The DM usually also played a character. Once we got our characters up to 5th or 6th level, we rolled up alternate characters. The idea was, it's kind of tough to get new characters off the ground in D&D. But by mixing in a new character with a higher level group, you could level that character more quickly and more safely. Once you get the engine going, you can get characters leveling more quickly, that way if you do lose your primary character, you're not stuck starting over at 1st level. You've got a few characters waiting in the wings that aren't that much lower in level.

QuoteAlso, since that player with a high level character might not show up every session (or the player might play a different character) it means that the position of highest level character and party composition will change from game to game. I was involved with one open table campaign where I was among the lowest level characters one session (standing in the back and trying not to die) and the highest level character the next (leading a pack of newbs through the first level of the dungeon). Plus the party composition changes so you might have two wizards one session and no wizards the next. That variety made the game much more enjoyable.

Levels aside, mixing up the party from time to time can create a really interesting effect. The idea goes something like this. You've got a couple of fighters with basically comparable stats. Fighter A rolled average hit points. Fighter B rolled better hit points. When these two get together, most people just think B will outshine A and that's the end of it. But really what happens is it creates a "comparative advantage" for Fighter A as the ranged fighter in the group. Even though A is no more skilled than B at ranged attack. A has an advantage because B with his higher hit points is so valuable on the front line, that there is a much higher opportunity cost of putting B in the back.

The different roles A and B take on in the group could influence their decisions when it comes to learning later proficiencies, or which magic items to go for when splitting treasure.

Then imagine the group gets mixed up. B goes off on some side quest, and the party needs to recruit a new fighter at more or less their skill level. Along comes Fighter C who rolled crappy hit points. Now it's C who has the comparative advantage as the archer. At this point, because A took some steps to specialize in the role as archer, A might actually be a more skilled archer than C. Yet C still has that comparative advantage. Because you don't have a back line at all if the front line crumbles. You can't afford to have A in the back now.

It might be levels 1-3 A focused on gaining proficiencies and magic items that best suited an archer. Now levels 4-6, A will be focused on proficiencies and magic items that make for a better front-line fighter. What ends up happening is each character follows a unique and often unpredictable path that makes it impossible to replicate that character (even in something like a point-buy system).

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 14, 2022, 11:22:15 AM
One of the advantages of BtB play, which I touch on earlier, is the knowledge that succeeding and gaining levels is an accomplishment. That the DM isn't just making ruling in order to insure that the party always succeeds. I know many DMs or players don't actually care if they earned their level ups, but it is a specific style of play with a specific benefit.

This is true even if you point out that Gygax didn't actually follow the rules he wrote. That point is effectively meaningless as it doesn't address the advantage of having a clearly defined rules set that DM and players agree on before play begins.

Well, keep in mind, I do play BtB. But this point is not one that's especially compelling for me. I can see how it might mean something to a player. But as the DM running the open table, not so much. Because when I say I run an open table, I mean I run a really open table. Like bring any character you like.  It's hard to maintain the idea that levels inherently have that sort of meaning when someone could be dusting off their character full of unearned levels from a Monty Haul campaign many years back.

A crazy high level character may have triple digit hit points and insanely good saving throws. But a roll of 1 fails the save, and poison doesn't care about your hit points. So there are still challenges. You still have to play smart. And if you don't, you won't keep those unearned levels for very long. While conversely, if you're starting out with a new character but you do have the chops, with the aid of the higher level characters in the party (earned or otherwise), it will help catapult you up the levels relatively quickly. In the long run, you rise or fall to the character you deserve. And this is not actually dependent on following the rules exactly as written. But it is a really great rule set for accomplishing what it is I'm trying to do.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 14, 2022, 08:56:50 PM
For all you AD&Ders who track time -- do you also track strict encumbrance and things like gear needed to camp and start fires and stuff too? Or do you handwave that? How anal do you get about it? Does it make a difference?

Short answer yes. Long answer no.

I'm actually more strict than strict as I impose an additional constraint. If you can't explain to me how your character is carrying something, you can't carry it, no matter what the encumbrance numbers say.

It's certainly possible for players to cook up wacky schemes to carry everything under the sun. But what I find is players are reluctant to do that when they have to explain it to me. It's like they know they're committing to the fact that they're holding that spare potion in a belt pouch that's tied to the end of their 10 foot pole or whatever silly thing they had to do to carry way too much stuff. Once they have to say it, I think they come to realize that I could very easily use this against them together, making them spend several rounds, several actions retrieving that potion. Players realized it's best to keep things simple.

When they're keeping things simple, unless you're talking about a character with crazy low strength, there's almost no chance their standard equipment will ever drop their movement rate (keep in mind, I'm playing core 1E, we do encumbered rates increments of 3", and also sometimes a movement rate is imposed by the armor type). The upshot is, there really isn't anything to track.

Until they're hauling back the loot, that is. At that point, we'll just add up what they've got, distributed it more or less evenly, and figure everyone's movement rates for the return journey. I am of the opinion that this is the real purpose of the encumbrance system. You've already kicked the dungeon's ass on the way in. Now you got to go back through all that, this time moving slow as shit. That's what keeps the return journey from being the same challenge they already beat, but twists it into a new challenge.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 14, 2022, 10:18:20 PM
1:1, game time equal to real time?  This sounds utterly insane.  Jeffro mentioned he was doing Isle of Dread.  How did he handle the long sea voyages?

What about one minute combat rounds?  What does your fighter do with the other 59 seconds when he is not making his one attack*?

*Save 15% on his car i suranceby switching to Geico

What 1:1 means is that one day of game time passes for every day in real life, in between games. So people meet up to play, kill an ogre, night ends, we all go home. If we meet up 2 weeks from then to play again, it's been 2 weeks that passed in the game too, and the players can have told the DM what their characters were doing this time. To do that though you need to make sure people are back in town or somewhere where they aren't in immediate danger -- ie, you can't stop a session mid-combat. Or if you do it needs to be worked around somehow, like those people are "frozen" in time until the session is done while other characters are doing stuff while time progresses.

Quote from: Lunamancer on April 14, 2022, 11:51:54 PM
When they're keeping things simple, unless you're talking about a character with crazy low strength, there's almost no chance their standard equipment will ever drop their movement rate (keep in mind, I'm playing core 1E, we do encumbered rates increments of 3", and also sometimes a movement rate is imposed by the armor type). The upshot is, there really isn't anything to track.

Until they're hauling back the loot, that is. At that point, we'll just add up what they've got, distributed it more or less evenly, and figure everyone's movement rates for the return journey. I am of the opinion that this is the real purpose of the encumbrance system. You've already kicked the dungeon's ass on the way in. Now you got to go back through all that, this time moving slow as shit. That's what keeps the return journey from being the same challenge they already beat, but twists it into a new challenge.

That's interesting. I run encumbrance in 5e and the encumbrance rules there are actually more punishing -- if you have below 15 STR just carrying your normal starting gear will often give you the first encumbrance penalty.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 02:40:23 AMk

Quote from: Lunamancer on April 14, 2022, 11:51:54 PM
When they're keeping things simple, unless you're talking about a character with crazy low strength, there's almost no chance their standard equipment will ever drop their movement rate (keep in mind, I'm playing core 1E, we do encumbered rates increments of 3", and also sometimes a movement rate is imposed by the armor type). The upshot is, there really isn't anything to track.

Until they're hauling back the loot, that is. At that point, we'll just add up what they've got, distributed it more or less evenly, and figure everyone's movement rates for the return journey. I am of the opinion that this is the real purpose of the encumbrance system. You've already kicked the dungeon's ass on the way in. Now you got to go back through all that, this time moving slow as shit. That's what keeps the return journey from being the same challenge they already beat, but twists it into a new challenge.

That's interesting. I run encumbrance in 5e and the encumbrance rules there are actually more punishing -- if you have below 15 STR just carrying your normal starting gear will often give you the first encumbrance penalty.

Sta dare encumbrance in 5e is 15 lbs per point of strength before you're even mildly burdened. That means pretty much every PC can carry at least 120 lbs of gear with no effort. That's not punishing at all.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 14, 2022, 08:56:50 PM
For all you AD&Ders who track time -- do you also track strict encumbrance and things like gear needed to camp and start fires and stuff too? Or do you handwave that? How anal do you get about it? Does it make a difference?

Personally I do strict time tracking, and for sandbox games I default to 1:1 time at the larger scales, especially by year - eg time in my Wilderlands progresses one real year per game year - but I'm not strict about tracking encumbrance unless I think a player is taking the mickey; most players these days probably have their 5e PC on D&D Beyond and have it auto-tracked anyway. If I think a PC appears to be carrying an implausible amount of stuff I will threaten to audit their encumbrance unless they drop stuff; ie RAW is a threat to keep things plausible.
Re camping, well I don't see a lot of extended wilderness expeditions, but if they want to camp comfortably they better have the appropriate gear. In hostile conditions I may be wanting Survival checks. But in the bulk of gaming the PCs return home each night; you get the occasional overnight dungeon camp.

The main thing I do to make 5e work like old school D&D is 1 week 1 Long Rest, and I either use the 5e DMG training to level rules (20 days at level 5-10); or level up during 1 week Long Rest. The 1 week long rest + train to level tends to keep time progression similar to real time. I also use the Downtime rules which make time a useful resource and "OK, 3 months pass" feels more like a reward than a penalty.

I do variable PC level with individual XP, but not 'everyone starts at 1st'. Basically a player gets to start 1 PC at half the level of the highest level PC, and other PCs/henchmen (called 'secondary PCs') at one quarter the level of the highest level PC. Currently in my Faerun Adventures game the highest level PC is 9th, and I round up starting level, so everyone starting a new PC can have one PC start at 5th, and multiple PCs start at 3rd.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 15, 2022, 03:22:24 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 02:40:23 AMk

Quote from: Lunamancer on April 14, 2022, 11:51:54 PM
When they're keeping things simple, unless you're talking about a character with crazy low strength, there's almost no chance their standard equipment will ever drop their movement rate (keep in mind, I'm playing core 1E, we do encumbered rates increments of 3", and also sometimes a movement rate is imposed by the armor type). The upshot is, there really isn't anything to track.

Until they're hauling back the loot, that is. At that point, we'll just add up what they've got, distributed it more or less evenly, and figure everyone's movement rates for the return journey. I am of the opinion that this is the real purpose of the encumbrance system. You've already kicked the dungeon's ass on the way in. Now you got to go back through all that, this time moving slow as shit. That's what keeps the return journey from being the same challenge they already beat, but twists it into a new challenge.

Sta dare encumbrance in 5e is 15 lbs per point of strength before you're even mildly burdened. That means pretty much every PC can carry at least 120 lbs of gear with no effort. That's not punishing at all.

There's a variant encumbrance in the DMG that's like traditional encumbrance for DMs who want to actually use encumbrance in their games instead of just handwaving it. At 5x your Strength score in weight, your speed drops by 10. At 10x your Strength score in weight, your speed drops by 20 and you have disadvantage on physical rolls.
That's interesting. I run encumbrance in 5e and the encumbrance rules there are actually more punishing -- if you have below 15 STR just carrying your normal starting gear will often give you the first encumbrance penalty.