Quote from: S'mon on April 15, 2022, 03:39:15 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 14, 2022, 08:56:50 PM
For all you AD&Ders who track time -- do you also track strict encumbrance and things like gear needed to camp and start fires and stuff too? Or do you handwave that? How anal do you get about it? Does it make a difference?

Personally I do strict time tracking, and for sandbox games I default to 1:1 time at the larger scales, especially by year - eg time in my Wilderlands progresses one real year per game year - but I'm not strict about tracking encumbrance unless I think a player is taking the mickey; most players these days probably have their 5e PC on D&D Beyond and have it auto-tracked anyway. If I think a PC appears to be carrying an implausible amount of stuff I will threaten to audit their encumbrance unless they drop stuff; ie RAW is a threat to keep things plausible.
Re camping, well I don't see a lot of extended wilderness expeditions, but if they want to camp comfortably they better have the appropriate gear. In hostile conditions I may be wanting Survival checks. But in the bulk of gaming the PCs return home each night; you get the occasional overnight dungeon camp.

The main thing I do to make 5e work like old school D&D is 1 week 1 Long Rest, and I either use the 5e DMG training to level rules (20 days at level 5-10); or level up during 1 week Long Rest. The 1 week long rest + train to level tends to keep time progression similar to real time. I also use the Downtime rules which make time a useful resource and "OK, 3 months pass" feels more like a reward than a penalty.

I do variable PC level with individual XP, but not 'everyone starts at 1st'. Basically a player gets to start 1 PC at half the level of the highest level PC, and other PCs/henchmen (called 'secondary PCs') at one quarter the level of the highest level PC. Currently in my Faerun Adventures game the highest level PC is 9th, and I round up starting level, so everyone starting a new PC can have one PC start at 5th, and multiple PCs start at 3rd.

Haha wow, I do the exact same thing with my 5e game! I make it X weeks to train for leveling, where X is the level. So to get to level 6 is 6 weeks, level 8 is 8 weeks, etc.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 02:40:23 AM
That's interesting. I run encumbrance in 5e and the encumbrance rules there are actually more punishing -- if you have below 15 STR just carrying your normal starting gear will often give you the first encumbrance penalty.

In 1E, armor doesn't use the regular encumbrance rules. This is the sort of thing that goes up a nerd's ass sideways, especially when in later editions they're trying to write cleaner, more streamlined rules. But it actually makes things a lot easier for actual play. Chainmail, for instance, drops your move down to 9". That means for the stuff your carrying to matter, the encumbrance has to be enough to drop you 2 categories rather than just one. The base weight allowance for a character with average strength to drop 2 categories is 700 coin encumbrance. A backpack has a capacity of 400 cn, belt pouches about 50 cn each. You don't really want to load these up completely with adventuring gear anyway, you want to leave room for the loot you'll be bringing back. But these numbers do demonstrate that you have a nice margin of allowance for items held and worn.

And by the way, there are also some more obscure rules regarding 1E encumbrance. So obscure I've literally never seen anyone talk about them. One of which is that items held or worn can have different encumbrance than items carried. This is because encumbrance units in 1E are not weight and take into account how difficult an object is to carry. But then there's a whole different system for overland travel that does use weight rather than the coin system. And that's because the concerns are different. There will be camping gear in addition to the usual adventuring equipment.

It may seem like an extra burden to have extra rules, but I think it actually makes things a lot easier and gets you away from bean counting when it comes to encumbrance.

What I would say about 1E in general is that it is anti- rules obsession. It's not asking, "Hey, what would be the sleekest rule for this?" That would be a rules-obsessed question. It's asking every step of the way, "What is reasonable here?" And sometimes what is reasonable doesn't map very nicely into a streamline set of rules.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 03:52:56 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 15, 2022, 03:22:24 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 02:40:23 AMk

Quote from: Lunamancer on April 14, 2022, 11:51:54 PM
When they're keeping things simple, unless you're talking about a character with crazy low strength, there's almost no chance their standard equipment will ever drop their movement rate (keep in mind, I'm playing core 1E, we do encumbered rates increments of 3", and also sometimes a movement rate is imposed by the armor type). The upshot is, there really isn't anything to track.

Until they're hauling back the loot, that is. At that point, we'll just add up what they've got, distributed it more or less evenly, and figure everyone's movement rates for the return journey. I am of the opinion that this is the real purpose of the encumbrance system. You've already kicked the dungeon's ass on the way in. Now you got to go back through all that, this time moving slow as shit. That's what keeps the return journey from being the same challenge they already beat, but twists it into a new challenge.

Sta dare encumbrance in 5e is 15 lbs per point of strength before you're even mildly burdened. That means pretty much every PC can carry at least 120 lbs of gear with no effort. That's not punishing at all.

There's a variant encumbrance in the DMG that's like traditional encumbrance for DMs who want to actually use encumbrance in their games instead of just handwaving it. At 5x your Strength score in weight, your speed drops by 10. At 10x your Strength score in weight, your speed drops by 20 and you have disadvantage on physical rolls.
That's interesting. I run encumbrance in 5e and the encumbrance rules there are actually more punishing -- if you have below 15 STR just carrying your normal starting gear will often give you the first encumbrance penalty.

Variant rules are not the norm. Most 5e players laugh off encumbrance when the Strength 8 wizard can casually haul 120 lbs without breaking a sweat.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 15, 2022, 04:15:34 PM
Variant rules are not the norm. Most 5e players laugh off encumbrance when the Strength 8 wizard can casually haul 120 lbs without breaking a sweat.

I know. My point is if you DO use the real encumbrance rules they're unexpectedly harsh. Though based on what's said about armor automatically docking your speed in earlier editions, it makes sense that you'd be at least somewhat encumbered out of the gate.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 04:57:26 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 15, 2022, 04:15:34 PM
Variant rules are not the norm. Most 5e players laugh off encumbrance when the Strength 8 wizard can casually haul 120 lbs without breaking a sweat.

I know. My point is if you DO use the real encumbrance rules they're unexpectedly harsh. Though based on what's said about armor automatically docking your speed in earlier editions, it makes sense that you'd be at least somewhat encumbered out of the gate.

You call variant rules the "real" rules? That's odd.

The way 5e works is to lay out a minimalist base and then have a bunch of extra add-ons in the DMG for you to bring in the elements of the kind of game you want. That's basically the "encumbrance plug-in" if you want to care about gear and what you carry.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 04:57:26 PM
I know. My point is if you DO use the real encumbrance rules they're unexpectedly harsh. Though based on what's said about armor automatically docking your speed in earlier editions, it makes sense that you'd be at least somewhat encumbered out of the gate.

I always think that if you're wealthy enough to own heavy armour, you can hire a retainer to carry your knick-knacks.

Quote from: mightybrain on April 15, 2022, 07:30:58 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 04:57:26 PM
I know. My point is if you DO use the real encumbrance rules they're unexpectedly harsh. Though based on what's said about armor automatically docking your speed in earlier editions, it makes sense that you'd be at least somewhat encumbered out of the gate.

I always think that if you're wealthy enough to own heavy armour, you can hire a retainer to carry your knick-knacks.

  Dead on.  I never understood the pictures with a warrior with a heavy pack and gear stacked 4 feet tall on top of it.  I watched lots of movies featuring Safaris and scenes of same in my youth.  I never noticed any of the "adventurers" carrying anything other than weapons, immediately useful items, or extremely valuable treasure.

Quote from: mightybrain on April 15, 2022, 07:30:58 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 04:57:26 PM
I know. My point is if you DO use the real encumbrance rules they're unexpectedly harsh. Though based on what's said about armor automatically docking your speed in earlier editions, it makes sense that you'd be at least somewhat encumbered out of the gate.

I always think that if you're wealthy enough to own heavy armour, you can hire a retainer to carry your knick-knacks.

What about inside the dungeon? I thought the porters and stuff don't dare go in there or they are going to get killed.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 10:25:53 PM

Quote from: mightybrain on April 15, 2022, 07:30:58 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 04:57:26 PM
I know. My point is if you DO use the real encumbrance rules they're unexpectedly harsh. Though based on what's said about armor automatically docking your speed in earlier editions, it makes sense that you'd be at least somewhat encumbered out of the gate.

I always think that if you're wealthy enough to own heavy armour, you can hire a retainer to carry your knick-knacks.

What about inside the dungeon? I thought the porters and stuff don't dare go in there or they are going to get killed.

   In that case you only carry what you immediately need.  An empty sack full of empty sacks IMO.    I honestly (as a player) entice the bravest hirelings to come on down with once the first areas are cleared, and certainly for carrying treasure back up to the surface.   No way I am walking around in a dungeon with a 50 pound pack trying to fight monsters.

"No time to argue: throw me the idol, I'll throw you the whip"

I thought this Questing Beast video was good on explaining how 1:1 timekeeping and the Gygaxian campaign works

It makes a lot of sense why you would need 1:1 time between sessions if you are running for multiple groups in a shared world.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on April 15, 2022, 10:25:53 PM
What about inside the dungeon? I thought the porters and stuff don't dare go in there or they are going to get killed.

For what it's wroth, Appendix C of the 1E DMG has some notes regarding 0th level characters in a dungeon that DMs may wish to exclude such encounters "on levels below whatever point you find them unlikely." Later it talks about NPC adventuring parties being accompanied by men-at-arms in dungeon levels 1-3, and henchmen of one-third the level of the party members for dungeon levels 4 and beyond. And so that gives a good rule of thumb on what the "point you find them unlikely" might be.

Quote from: mightybrain on April 16, 2022, 05:40:19 AM
"No time to argue: throw me the idol, I'll throw you the whip"

The Indiana Jones movies were actually highly influential in how I did D&D back in the day. And without question those first ten minutes of Raiders is a great example of use of 0th levels in an AD&D game. You can see there's a lot of trouble bringing 0th level hirelings into dangerous areas. At the first sign of danger, still in the wilderness, one of the 0th level flees. Not too long later, one pulls a gun on Indy. Satipo does go into the Dungeon, but once he's holding the idol in his hands--worth a lot more than what he's being paid--he runs, too. Indy's man a the plane comes through for him, though. When NPCs encounter anything they perceive dangerous, it could be time for a morale check. And so that's what you're seeing fall apart in those first 10 minutes.

Quote from: S'mon on April 16, 2022, 06:47:06 AM
I thought this Questing Beast video was good on explaining how 1:1 timekeeping and the Gygaxian campaign works

I remember when I first saw that. At first I was nodding, right on brother. By the middle, I'm like, huh? The 1:1 thing doesn't actually have anything to do with anything. It's not at all necessary to having this style of play. And it's a twisting of what the DMG actually says. There is a clear example in that same section of the DMG that contradicts it. But it seems to be the lightning rod of attention.

Now maybe Jeffro is right that you need to keep the 1:1 time in order for the campaign to scale to a ridiculous number of participants. Maybe his misreading of the 1E DMG actually led him to something superior to what Gary actually put forth. I don't know. I've never tried to see just how much I can scale up the campaign.

What I do know is, some weeks my group gets together, and the stuff we do will take up 30 days game time. Other weeks, it will only take a couple of hours of game time and we don't even need very much recovery time after. If you tracked and added up the total game time we spent, with zero time passing between sessions, over the course of a year of play it probably would add up to just around 52 weeks. The game is already roughly in 1:1 time without trying to force it.

When I implemented the idea of 1 game day passing for each real day spent not playing (nearly 20 years before Jeffro even knew it was in there), the whole point was to speed up in-game time. So instead of just the 52 weeks of game time that passed during our full year of play, an additional 52 weeks would have passed due to the one week of real time between all our sessions. That rule puts us in 2:1 time.

Then pile on top of that training time. And do monthly disease checks--sometimes a character might have to take a couple of weeks of game time getting over the sniffles. For something more serious, they'll have to drain their coffers a bit to pay for a cure disease.

I also ruled (and maybe Jeffro wants in on this) that clerics are presumed to have religious duties during down time and cannot use their spell slots to heal party members. They're using up the spell slots healing the poor--or the rich who want to pay that NPC spell service price in the form of donation to the church. So you've got to do the bed rest rates of 1 hp per day, 7 hp + CON bonus per week, or 28 days to heal in full.

Sometimes you also have to spend 2 months straight hanging out in a bar waiting for prospects to show up after your ad blitz trying to recruit henchmen. Or two years to build your castle. Or up to 5 years to wait for your followers to arrive once you've built your castle.

The idea is to have the campaign running in at least 5:1 time. 10:1 would be really nice. Because Gary did lay out that nice section in the DMG on aging after all, plotting out the different lifespans of the different races. I figure that should come into play at some point. It's part of teh rulez. In fact, check out this quote in particular from the DMG:

QuoteDeath Due To Age:

This is a serious matter, for unless the lifespan can otherwise be prolonged, the character brought back from such death faces the prospect of soon dying again. Beyond the maximum age determined for the character in question, no form of magic which does not prolong life span will work. (Thus, some characters may become liches .  .  .  .) Of course, multiple potions of longevity, wishes, and possibly magical devices will allow a greatly extended life span, but once a character dies due to old (venerable) age, then it is all over. If you make this clear, many participants will see the continuity of the family line as the way to achieve a sort of immortality.

See that? If that much game time passes in the campaign, procreation becomes a serious motive. Romantic entanglements go from being something either players avoid entirely due to the potential of DM fuckery or else only engage in to fill the gaps between "oh my god so random" moments while pulling shifts at the Firejolt cafe, and instead become a vital objective to long-term play. Just some food for thought.

The kind of campaigns I enjoy, and the sort I run, you could easily find yourself playing the descendants of one of your previous PCs. You might even inherit a magic item or two. When the old man kicks.

Quote from: Lunamancer on April 16, 2022, 11:08:08 AMWhat I do know is, some weeks my group gets together, and the stuff we do will take up 30 days game time.

One group, correct?